Is Thai State Education That Bad ?

englishoak · July 18, 2008

I hear a lot of you guys complaining about the Thai teachers, system and low standards etc, I would like to share with you my experience since returning to the UK with our daughter.

First a few facts.

Our daughter until age 11 was in Thai government state school. Moved schools a couple of times to begin with due to lack of satisfaction with teachers. For the last four years attended the same school in BKK.

Command of English was what I call limited, mostly due to having no contact with farang either at home ( other than me ) or at school IMO.

Behavior was exeptional, regarding school, homework, respect and attitude.

In 2006 We decided that the time had come to return to the UK in order to expand her education, horizons and future opportunities.

When we arrived in the UK she went into Junior school for approx 3 months before summer break, we intended it to be a gradual introduction to the UK before going to the local state comprehensive. As it turned out it was a perfect balance and gave her a gentle intro into UK life, culture and language.

Imagine our shock when we were informed by the junior school that her maths, art and IT education were way above the other students.

There was a initial problem with her english but spending the summer holidays concentrating soley on that brought her up to speed by the start of big school.

She is now 13, been here for 2 years and continues to lead the class in IT, Maths and Art. I addition to this she is also top in her class for French ( even though there are two french students in her class ), Geography and unbelievably History. English is no problem now and she is in the top 10 % of the class.

After just two years.

I find it quite amazing that considering the reputation of Thai state education our Daughter has had a comparable if not superior education during her early years in Thailand, not to mention an attitude and respect which other parents here in most cases can only dream of.

Now i'm not saying our daughter is a whizz kid or anything, far from it in fact, just a normal bright kid that just enjoys learning. The thing that sets her apart from most is her attitude to school and homework. There is also a cultural thing regarding the importance of education and respect for others and authority.

This is something that thai culture and to a degree the thai education system has given her. We have sent her back to LOS for the summer to see the family and continue thai language studies, also to reinforce thai culture and style. This we hope will go some way to counteracting the UK youth culture and attitude which the whole country is lamenting.

I am incredibly disappointed with the UK education standard since returning, especially at GCSE level and am seriously considering homeschool/ e - learning for the next few years. As far as A levels and a Degree are concerned I see online learning from a reputable western Uni whilst living back in LOS the way to go.

Now it may be we got lucky, but I have to give credit to the Thai state education system because from what i've seen of the UK system it gives very little homework, too much personal freedom and so little comprehensive teaching that I refuse to refer to her school as a comprehensive at all. Rather a parrot system only interested in focusing on modules that will be in the SAT and GCSE exams, it might make the school look good but the students will have very limited skill sets at the end.

I know you guys n gals in the teaching profession there have insider knowledge of the Thai system but it served us very well and it's years ahead teaching respect and attitude at an early age, something the UK has lost.

mbkudu · July 18, 2008

English is really the only subject that the Thais have trouble both teaching and learning. It's as if they have a fear of it.

One of the important skills that many Thai students slack is critical thinking. Getting them to raise a hand to ask a question

or disagree on something is nearly impossible. Over all I'd agree with you though. It's really not as bad as some people believe.

Edited July 18, 2008 by mbkudu

PeaceBlondie · July 18, 2008

An excellent opening post; thank you. With children, everybody's mileage varies. I think you do have a very bright child (I have six semi-bright to very bright kids with very different attitudes toward school).

I notice that you said, "Moved schools a couple of times to begin with due to lack of satisfaction with teachers." Congratulations - most parents do not or can not do that.

Math is something that Thai prathom schools teach fairly well, using rote methods. My 7th grade maths students took a long time to realize they could ask questions, correct my errors, answer "I don't know." They did not do homework. They copied and cheated like gangsters. The Thai math teacher gave them final exam answers during the exam. Even my brightest 7th graders could not do word math problems in English - just too difficult to understand the language and the thought process to solve the problem. I was probably their first teacher that ever required them to answer open ended questions without multiple choices. I have still not heard of a Thai teacher giving essay questions or even a fill in the blank problem such as "What is the cube root of 27?"

Your unique experience is a single, valid anecdote, just as my four youngest ones dropping out of school in the ninth grade is a four-fold anecdote. There are lousy schools in the West, surely.

PhilHarries · July 19, 2008

I'm not sure it is so much a fault of the British education system as much as it is a symptom of the lack of respect of the British youth towards education and an indifference in much of the population to academic performance. The Asians still have an inbred respect for all things and especially education which they seem to view as an honour bestowed upon them by their elders. So your daughter's abilities are probably as much a result of her attitude, and your support, as they are of the Thai education system. This Asian attitude exists in pretty well all social classes, I recall seeing a piece on television about a Thai family living in a ramshackle corrugated iron shack. But their daughter was turned out for school immaculately dressed unlike some of the urchins roaming the streets of the UK appearing at school when they've nothing else to do.

The problem with the British education system today, apart from lack of funding, is that it is tuned towards the below average ability so as to avoid turning out failures instead of pitching to the above average and making the underperformers stretch themselves. This unfortunately carries over into adult life with the masses happy with mediocre performance that is good enough to get by.

The down side of the Thai system, as has been said, is the lack of critical thinking and lack of questioning attitude. "We do it that way because it has always been done that way" is the overriding gospel with no allowance for free thought.

englishoak · July 19, 2008

I agree with all your comments, it was notable before coming back to the UK that there was a lack of questioning attitude. That was also coupled with a distinct reluctance to get involved with discussion and debate. I always took that to be a side effect of the Thai culture and the Thai belief that "children should be seen and not heard" as it was in the UK a few generations past.

It was one of the main reasons for wanting to expose her to another culture, I am all too aware that questions and debate, disagreement and finding solutions are character building skills that everyone should have. That said there is a point we come to that is over the top and too liberal. After all the UK is so politically correct that the rules now favor the weak and minorities, the slow are encouraged yes but the rest are held back and expected to tolerate and wait/support them. The result is the masses are affected by a weak cultural apathy, taught its no ones fault and that responsibility is everyone else's but their's. As long as its not them who have to act then thats fine. It is now way over the top in the UK people are actually scared of stating the obvious, the weak willed and irresponsible control the country, the strong of voice are made to feel guilty if they highlight even an obvious problem.

Our daughter has been fantastic since arriving in opening up and engaging in debate and questioning. The other side of the coin is being a teenager she has begun to pick up UK traits and is beginning to expect an answer or question things that are not open to debate, I often catch myself sounding like my old man, " because I said so ", " my house my rules " etc. Mae being Thai gets real upset with the "lack of respect when questioned" and "lazy attitude to helping mae" Its a balance that is difficult to maintain but having one foot in both cultures is preferable to being either totally dominated or over indulged.

PB I agree we just got lucky with our daughters character, you all mentioned open questions etc, you are spot on and it has been a major step in her free thinking and reasoning since arriving. I wonder how Thai teachers would react to being questioned ?

Another steep learning curve has been cause and effect and actions having consequence. Both cultures seem to avoid this, Thais tending to ignore it or blame superstition or others. British absolve themselves of responsibility by citing others failings and blame everything else.

I would appreciate your opinions on homeschooling / on line education (reputable of course ) rather than either school system. It would allow far more diversity in study and I would hope reinforce core values without becoming over exposed to cultural flaws. Either based in Thailand or UK is fine may be even somewhere else in Europe, Spain possibly ? allowing communication with S Americans, any opinions ?

Edited July 19, 2008 by englishoak

jumnien · July 19, 2008

There's all this talk of how good the British education system is. But, how come when you meet Brit in Thailand, who presumably attended these fantastic schools, they are, well, not very educated.

keddy · July 20, 2008

There's all this talk of how good the British education system is. But, how come when you meet Brit in Thailand, who presumably attended these fantastic schools, they are, well, not very educated.

It might be because in order to communicate with you, they have to come down to your level of receptivity and intelligence.

Galong · July 20, 2008

There's all this talk of how good the British education system is. But, how come when you meet Brit in Thailand, who presumably attended these fantastic schools, they are, well, not very educated.

It might be because in order to communicate with you, they have to come down to your level of receptivity and intelligence.

:D Now there's a five star come-back!

As I don't hang out in bars and brothels, the Brits I meet and know are all intellectually interesting and fairly wise. I'd say that their education system has done them well.

mbkudu · July 20, 2008

Most public school systems (state, government) whether in the US, UK, Thailand or wherever are mediocre and parents of children know this. Many parents then supplement their children's studies in the home. Kids don't really begin learning valuable lessons until they leave school, and go into the real world where they have to work or travel independently.

PeaceBlondie · July 20, 2008

Diversity in foreign cultures includes an entire range of schools, from Oxford-Cambridge to the polytechnic unis, from posh luxury boarding schools to slums and council estates. One difference between these farang cultures and Thailand is that there is a fighting chance the gardener's son can become the boss of the landowner's children. The son of a King Ranch Mexican-American cowpuncher became a university president and Secretary of Education because he could. Such upward mobility would scare the wealthy Thais. Does a half-Black son of a Muslim African have a chance to become prime minister of Thailand? How many Isaan farm girls become members of parliament or famed surgeons?

Back on topic, I am delighted to hear of a half-Thai student who went to the UK and suddenly learned to ask questions and expect reasonable answers. Talking last night with a former coworker, we found ourselves telling semi-horrific stories of really stupid Thai tests of rotten English with crazy answers, foolish and stubborn Thai English teacher, cheating, lazy students, etc. I once complimented a monk for teaching Thai children not to be thieves, but I did not ask why they are carefully trained by their ajarns to be cheats.

paully · July 22, 2008

I am incredibly disappointed with the UK education standard since returning, especially at GCSE level and am seriously considering homeschool/ e - learning for the next few years. As far as A levels and a Degree are concerned I see online learning from a reputable western Uni whilst living back in LOS the way to go.

If you're disappointed by the UK education standard by witnessing what's happened to your daughter, you should try teaching in the UK

Many good points, Englishoak: I totally agree about GCSEs, frankly they are an utter waste of time and do nothing to properly prepare students for A Levels or higher studies. Now you understand why home study and private education in the UK are an increasingly popular option for parents contemplating the alternative of the local comprehensive for their little one(s).

Having said that, you've definitely done the right thing for your daughter in taking her out of the Thai system at a youngish age. If she'd stayed longer in Thai schools, I fear she would have been increasingly affected by the negatives of the Thai system: no independent thought or questioning, excessive respect for the teacher, even if the teacher is not up to scratch, dull rote learning, limited English exposure and a tolerance of cheating. She'll be a better, more rounded student and person as a result. A degree from a UK or western university, in person or by distance or e-learning is definitely the way forward for her.

jarrowelvis · July 22, 2008

Although I have never worked in the Thai state system, I have many years experience of the UK system. (Assistant head, Head of department, school INSET co-ordinator, Local Education Authority ICT advisor) I have also worked with a number of Thai students during the 6 years I spent at an international school in Bangkok, albeit in the 1990s.

Anyway, some points…

The variance you get within UK comprehensive schools is huge – two houses in parallel streets can have a massive difference in value just because one is on the edge of the catchment to a good school, and the other on the edge of a bad school. Did you research the school you sent your daughter to? % students that achieved at least 5 grades A-C, average value- added score, last OFSTED (government inspection team) report? Does the school have a “gifted and talented” and “raising achievement” programme? Ask head of year for copies of the schemes of work for each subject and homework plan for the term – if they don’t have them, alarm bells should be ringing.[/font]

I spend a lot of time in my current role visiting / advising a lot of comprehensive schools in the north east of England and these are the key indicators of performance. I would look into changing her school first – you sound like you have unfortunately found a very bad one. Obviously, bad schools on the most part attract only bad teachers who cant deliver the curriculum properly, irrelevant of how good it is on paper. They often lack classroom management / discipline and the ability to stretch bright students. These are the ones you constantly hear moaning about students, dumbed down curriculums etc...its a funny thing, blame culture...

The fact that the school ranks students in each subject is even more worrying – OFSTED would pull this to pieces and for me is immediately an indicator of bad practice. I'm very, very suprised that even if the school does 'rank' students in the UK (it would not suprise me in a Thai school!), that they would share this information with you. What value does it provide? If everyone else gets 23% in a test and you come out with 24%, youve still failed! A better indicator would be her key stage 3 levels which at 13 you should have now - nationally standardised and externally assessed. This will let you know where she fits in the bigger scheme of things, not just her school.

However, I think it’s a bit silly to label the entire UK education system as inferior to the Thai state system because of one very good (Thai) experience and one very bad (UK) experience. There is a reason why people in educational circles ( who know a fair bit more than you about this) regard the UK curriculum as one of the very best in the world and why the vast majority of international schools adopt it. Bad schools and bad teachers will always exist no matter how good the system - sadly an element of luck can come into it. Manners and respect for me are cultural not educational issues and something I agree that the UK need needs to tackle. This needs to start from home, not schools in my opinion. For me, the systems are simply not remotely comparable in terms of academic rigour, with the exception of maths and science.

Unfortunately, it seems your daughters current school is simply not up to standard. Your options for me are:

Move to a better state school within your local education authority.

Invest in private school education, either in UK or Thailand.

Distance learning / E-learning (although your daughter may miss out on social interaction and development this way - it may be better to do this in addition to traditional schooling.)

Good luck with whatever you decide.

Edited July 22, 2008 by jarrowelvis

johnwills · July 23, 2008

There's all this talk of how good the British education system is. But, how come when you meet Brit in Thailand, who presumably attended these fantastic schools, they are, well, not very educated.

It might be because in order to communicate with you, they have to come down to your level of receptivity and intelligence.

:D Now there's a five star come-back!

As I don't hang out in bars and brothels, the Brits I meet and know are all intellectually interesting and fairly wise. I'd say that their education system has done them well.

Yes, I agree, most of my expat Brit friends, either had their own business, held managerial positions or government jobs before moving out here. Some have degrees some don't, but all bright in there own way.

Caecilius · July 27, 2008

Having taught in this country for many years, and having been taught in the UK for many years, I feel qualified enough to reply to this thread.

My UK skool was so bad it doesn't even warrant spelling correctly. It was a public skool that had terribly old-fashioned and corrupt teachers. Very little classroom discipline, so bullies and roughnecks ran rampant, virtually stopping the learning process. Teachers that couldn't answer simple questions except to say they shouldn't be asked, and many teachers giving out detentions but not being able to back up why they were doing so. My folks paid good money for this laughable education, and I called their bluff and left before my A levels. I did O levels a year early, and then GCSEs which were far easier. I did A/O levels, A/S levels, and A levels. The GCSEs were the easiest of the lot. The UK skool system has been dumbed down so much that it's on a par with the US's. The reasons are clear for anyone with a free mind. My degree was a joke, too. How can anyone get a 1st class degree and hold their head up high (I don't) when all that means is that they got nearly a third of the degree wrong. 70% equals a 1st? Come on.

The Thai education system comes at it from the other angle. It deliberately wants people dumbed down, and has done from its inception. The fact that it happens to turn out more polite and respectful people is not luck, but design, and in this it is far superior to the UK system. However, critical thinking is not wanted in this country, so it's carefully omitted.

The trick is to aim for a balance, as no education system in the world is perfect. A bit of this, a pinch of that, and a healthy dose of parental responsibility.

BTW, my folks were teachers. And its true - most skool inspectors are failed teachers. So what worth is an OFSTED report? Discuss...

PeaceBlondie · July 27, 2008

Thanks Caeclicus, and thanks again to our original poster, englishoak. I cannot discuss public schools that are private, A or O or GCSE or A/O, AS or OFSTED. You guys realize, I hope, that only folks from the UK understand such jargon?

I think I understand that, in the UK as in other Western countries, local schools and districts vary very widely, as do schools you pay extra for (you know, the publicprivate schools). The only state schools in the USA are tertiary.

Scott · July 27, 2008

There are some core issues that need to be addressed: First, how well a student does is in part genetic (intelligence) and motivation, generally because of the family and it's values. Even the worst schools can turn out students who do well because of these variables. The true test, however, is how well they do with the less gifted students and those whose family situation doesn't include values of education.

The OP has a bright daughter and options were exercised. That isn't a compliment to him and it's apparent as he thinks about long range goals and education for his daughter.

Thai students learn a lot of things quite well--they can memorize like there is no tomorrow and that's not necessarily bad. There handwriting and art work is exceptional. They also learn a lot of attention to detail (except in English grammar!).

As teacher's we are concerned about making it better and making it better for a larger range of students.

Western countries have for a long time been lagging behind in secondary education. Students begin to excel at the university level. (I don't remember ever opening a book without force in secondary school). We did learn how to argue, discuss and think and that was immensely helpful later on.

makavelithedon · August 1, 2008

Firstly, Scott- I would say that the success and improvements that can be achieved with a child that is struggling through parents (for want of a better word) being moronic or clueless are negligible if issues are highlighted and not worked on outside school.

If the parent is not on-board as is the case with most Thais due to the cultural 'not my kid' mentality and face issues I just don't see how the school can be judged/blamed on being a success or failure for struggling students. I have had an in depth discussion on this very issue with a couple of highly qualified genuine 'international school' teacher friends, who say the same- even in ideal surroundings with 17 in a class and all the latest bells, whistles and learning methods. Parents not on board or willing to do their bit then improvements will be minimal.

All I can take from the original poster's story is that he is a caring and conscientious parent doing what appears to be the best he can with a highly intelligent child and will reap the rewards in years to come, and that is always deeply admirable to see. I see enough of the opposite every day to almost throw in the towel. I would hazzard a guess the child would succeed regardless of the environment in which they were thrown and is just a pink elephant in making a very poor Thai system look miles better than it is.

However to suggest that their is any credible comparison which could be made in an academic sense with the U.K system on a whole is frankly laughable. E.Q. / moral issues in certain areas then yes, certainly a solid argument could stack up but the rest.......................... :D :D