Rude To Not Become Fluent In Thai

[Naam]

The same people are also usually able to give long and elaborate explanations as to why they can't speak it.

let me make you happy with a short explanation. i see no need to waste my precious time learning a language that doesn't give me any benefits.

[BangnaBound]

None of the Thais I have met, regardless of social class, consider the inability to speak Thai as rude. This is especially true of expats that are only here for a short post, or have only been hear a short time (like under a few years).

However, if you have lived hear a long time, or plan to, I think Thais would like to hear that you’ve given it a try, even if you have failed miserably. On few occasions I’ve been around foreigners, who have lived in Thailand a long time, announce within ear shot of the locals that they don’t speak a word of Thai, they never tried, and it’s not important/ necessary to learn. The locals do find that rude. And sometimes it’s not that they disagree with the foreigner’s sentiment, but when someone tells you that you culture and language are of no value, it’s bound to be offensive.

So in response the OP’s question, it is not rude to not speak Thai fluently, however it is rude to tell people their language is worthless.

I speak a little Thai, and I doubt I’ll ever be fluent, but I’m quite happy with the amount I’ve picked up. As for the wife being embarrassed about my level of Thai, her opinion is pretty much in line with Ourmaninbangers.

[AFKAFSinLOS]

I think all the people who live in Thailand and are saying they dont need to learn thai are really just jealous that they are just not smart enough to learn Thai and just give up because its too hard for them. Thats my opinion

i know you are referring to me because when you tried to explain Einstein's relativity theory i confessed that i attended primary school only four years and that my maths is limited to addition and subtraction not exceeding the number of my fingers

If you used your thumb, you could have counted to five, and continued at primary school for an extra year...

Personally I think you're someone who highlights the difference between being intelligent and being academic... Give me an intelligent person with four fingers any day...

People often erroneously think the ability to speak Thai is correlated to intelligence. There are at least 60 million individual data points that suggest this may not be the case...

[solent01]

AFKAFSinLOS,

Of course technically you are 100% correct, that is indeed the principle at play, however to pretend for one moment that it is that straight forward, is simply absurd. The factors involved are quite complex (as you are fully aware), your attire, body language, age, mannerisms, family background (if known by other people), your perceived wealth etc. etc. all help determine how your social standing is judged by others.

I live in a small community, and I'm some what of a social animal, I enjoy meeting people, as such I have made a lot of friends with backgrounds including but not limited to wealthy businessmen, doctors, government officials, high ranking police officers, teachers, an army officer who is the head of the local oil refinery, and the chief surgeon at our hospital. Out of all my friends and associates, I feel that the people with medical backgrounds are/should be of a higher standing than myself, after all they have dedicated their lives to the pursuit of helping others. Yet when ever we meet up for a meal and a drink, the issue of who Wai's first is never apparent, its just smiles and instantaneous Wai's all round.

This post is not in anyway meant to be a brag about who I know, simply some background knowledge for your perusal, so you can better understand the context in which I made my original post. Getting back to my original post, the point of course is in certain company at certain times, to not Wai (or respond with say a hand shake) is simply being arrogant, aloof and rude.

If one chooses to not Wai for the principle that "only Thai's should Wai", that is your prerogative, but you do run the risk of being perceived as arrogant etc. I will admit at times I have felt uncomfortable when being introduced to new people (friends of friends, or at business meetings) and being uncertain as to Wai or not, in which case I believe offering a handshake more appropriate (its an unexpected action that puts the Thai a little off guard, which in effect helps to brush aside the psychological assumptions that are taking place).

It would be interesting to get some feed back on this from the Thai members of the board.

Ok, I've dribbled on enough about this already, I apologize to the OP for moving this thread away from being "fluent in Thai", but I feel it is pertinent to the general topic at hand.

Edit: And just for fun heres a big old for you

Edited July 22, 2008 by solent01

[Neeranam]

The same people are also usually able to give long and elaborate explanations as to why they can't speak it.

let me make you happy with a short explanation. i see no need to waste my precious time learning a language that doesn't give me any benefits.

What an ignorant thing to say.

[Naam]

The same people are also usually able to give long and elaborate explanations as to why they can't speak it.

let me make you happy with a short explanation. i see no need to waste my precious time learning a language that doesn't give me any benefits.

What an ignorant thing to say.

what an intelligent remark

[Naam]

I think all the people who live in Thailand and are saying they dont need to learn thai are really just jealous that they are just not smart enough to learn Thai and just give up because its too hard for them. Thats my opinion

i know you are referring to me because when you tried to explain Einstein's relativity theory i confessed that i attended primary school only four years and that my maths is limited to addition and subtraction not exceeding the number of my fingers

If you used your thumb, you could have counted to five, and continued at primary school for an extra year...

Personally I think you're someone who highlights the difference between being intelligent and being academic... Give me an intelligent person with four fingers any day...

People often erroneously think the ability to speak Thai is correlated to intelligence. There are at least 60 million individual data points that suggest this may not be the case...

it is not?

[padfoot]

I don't think was is rude by not speaking fluent Thai. I define fluent as university level, being able to get a degree at a Thai university. It is courteous to make an attempt to learn the language. Only speaking English limits one's opportunities and experiences. On the other side of the coin, some people have a natural ability to learn languages. While for others it is a hopeless task. Another thing, for me, I would like to understand what the people around me are saying.

[Naam]

my view is that (not only in this thread but in others too) a number of posters display an amazing level of arrogance and intolerance by judging other peoples life style as well as their individual priorities (which is none of their <deleted> business!).

[AmeriThai]

If one chooses to not Wai for the principle that "only Thai's should Wai", that is your prerogative, but you do run the risk of being perceived as arrogant etc. I will admit at times I have felt uncomfortable when being introduced to new people (friends of friends, or at business meetings) and being uncertain as to Wai or not, in which case I believe offering a handshake more appropriate (its an unexpected action that puts the Thai a little off guard, which in effect helps to brush aside the psychological assumptions that are taking place).

It would be interesting to get some feed back on this from the Thai members of the board.

Perhaps when not acknowledging a wai might be seen negatively, is to those well known by Thais and have been around long enough to have picked up a few customs. As for tourists and newbies to LoS who may not understand, I think most Thais, or at least many, understand that. A Thai professor friend, who I regard as a mentor, told me if you aren't certain as to wai or not, go ahead and wai. It isn't going to hurt anyone. And if you learn differently later on, then you'll know who to wai and who not to.

[Neeranam]

The same people are also usually able to give long and elaborate explanations as to why they can't speak it.

let me make you happy with a short explanation. i see no need to waste my precious time learning a language that doesn't give me any benefits.

What an ignorant thing to say.

what an intelligent remark

I'm glad you agree

Even in Pattaya, a knowledge of Thai would benefit you.

I imagine that most Thais there are very happy that residents have your attitude - they can squeeze more out of you.

[teacup]

If one chooses to not Wai for the principle that "only Thai's should Wai", that is your prerogative, but you do run the risk of being perceived as arrogant etc. I will admit at times I have felt uncomfortable when being introduced to new people (friends of friends, or at business meetings) and being uncertain as to Wai or not, in which case I believe offering a handshake more appropriate (its an unexpected action that puts the Thai a little off guard, which in effect helps to brush aside the psychological assumptions that are taking place).

It would be interesting to get some feed back on this from the Thai members of the board.

Perhaps when not acknowledging a wai might be seen negatively, is to those well known by Thais and have been around long enough to have picked up a few customs. As for tourists and newbies to LoS who may not understand, I think most Thais, or at least many, understand that. A Thai professor friend, who I regard as a mentor, told me if you aren't certain as to wai or not, go ahead and wai. It isn't going to hurt anyone. And if you learn differently later on, then you'll know who to wai and who not to.

Except beggars and convicts, …..I wai wai to just almost everybody,…… young or old , rich or poor - doesn’t matter to me.

It just comes automatically/ and naturally to me and I don’t even think too mut into it actually. It’s just like saying “hi” to a person in front of you, that’s all.

Just me

[Naam]

The same people are also usually able to give long and elaborate explanations as to why they can't speak it.

let me make you happy with a short explanation. i see no need to waste my precious time learning a language that doesn't give me any benefits.

What an ignorant thing to say.

what an intelligent remark

I'm glad you agree

Even in Pattaya, a knowledge of Thai would benefit you.

I imagine that most Thais there are very happy that residents have your attitude - they can squeeze more out of you.

so what? that happened (and still happens) to me in countries where i speak the language fluently. as long as i receive a good service/product and i am not blatantly cheated i have and will tolerate it. some of the contractors (e.g. my electrician) doing quite often odd jobs for me have stopped giving me a price. they know they fare much better with the answer "up to you" when i ask "how much?" on the other hand they also know that i demand and expect the best possible service they are able to render, punctuality and no dilly-dallying.

[think_too_mut]

Why would I learn Thai? An irrelevant language, far less useful than Japanese (where I live) and I know I wil never ever learn Thai to some useful extent (running a business meeting, for example)

Much more benefit is that my wife and baby go with English, that's what is happening.

In Thailand, speaking English is a stand alone, money generating skill.

I am fluent in Japanese, 10yrs as a professional translator/interpreter in Japan, you could not be further from correct.

Yeah?

You may be either extraordinary talented or it is only you thinking (and believing) your Japanese is that good.

As soon as it gets more than plain chat, professional translators (I changed 3 of them) could most of the time give me about 60% of what is going on.

Japanese accept that as it is better than what they would have gathered themselves.

A Chinese guy in my company, mid 30s, in Japan since he was 12, high school here, Uni in Japan...once, when he spoke, one Japanese said - stop this crap Japanese and bring in interpreter!

Another guy, 30 years in Japan, JP wife, 2 daughters (married already), always speaks Japanese and I could hardly notice he had some accent. When I asked my Japanese colleagues what his Japanese was like - they said - rubbish, she should not be talking in Japanese, he's making asshol_e of himself.

To illustrate what he was saying an example they gave me was "I come over your house, grab you in and drive you in my car". And he dared talking in business meetings like that. No wonder he was booted after a year when it was obvious that his JP skills that brought him in were not only insufficient but rather annoying to all within hearing distance.

[Neeranam]

The same people are also usually able to give long and elaborate explanations as to why they can't speak it.

let me make you happy with a short explanation. i see no need to waste my precious time learning a language that doesn't give me any benefits.

What an ignorant thing to say.

what an intelligent remark

I'm glad you agree

Even in Pattaya, a knowledge of Thai would benefit you.

I imagine that most Thais there are very happy that residents have your attitude - they can squeeze more out of you.

so what? that happened (and still happens) to me in countries where i speak the language fluently. as long as i receive a good service/product and i am not blatantly cheated i have and will tolerate it. some of the contractors (e.g. my electrician) doing quite often odd jobs for me have stopped giving me a price. they know they fare much better with the answer "up to you" when i ask "how much?" on the other hand they also know that i demand and expect the best possible service they are able to render, punctuality and no dilly-dallying.

If you spoke Thai, you'd hear the correct rates for elecricians etc, and they wouldn't say "up to you". I bet they have a big smile when they say that

[NoSpeakIt]

I think all the people who live in Thailand and are saying they dont need to learn thai are really just jealous that they are just not smart enough to learn Thai and just give up because its too hard for them. Thats my opinion

not smart enough to memorize a bunch of words? lol?

[BugJackBaron]

Why would I learn Thai? An irrelevant language, far less useful than Japanese (where I live) and I know I wil never ever learn Thai to some useful extent (running a business meeting, for example)

Much more benefit is that my wife and baby go with English, that's what is happening.

In Thailand, speaking English is a stand alone, money generating skill.

I am fluent in Japanese, 10yrs as a professional translator/interpreter in Japan, you could not be further from correct.

Yeah?

You may be either extraordinary talented or it is only you thinking (and believing) your Japanese is that good.

As soon as it gets more than plain chat, professional translators (I changed 3 of them) could most of the time give me about 60% of what is going on.

Japanese accept that as it is better than what they would have gathered themselves.

A Chinese guy in my company, mid 30s, in Japan since he was 12, high school here, Uni in Japan...once, when he spoke, one Japanese said - stop this crap Japanese and bring in interpreter!

Another guy, 30 years in Japan, JP wife, 2 daughters (married already), always speaks Japanese and I could hardly notice he had some accent. When I asked my Japanese colleagues what his Japanese was like - they said - rubbish, she should not be talking in Japanese, he's making asshol_e of himself.

To illustrate what he was saying an example they gave me was "I come over your house, grab you in and drive you in my car". And he dared talking in business meetings like that. No wonder he was booted after a year when it was obvious that his JP skills that brought him in were not only insufficient but rather annoying to all within hearing distance.

Well real interpretation requires a LOT of training , not just knowledge of your native and the target language - the best interpreters, like the ones heads of state use are paid well for their talent.

But to get back to the main point; I don't see why anyone would not make an effort to learn some

Thai. Even if your wife and her friends all speak good English(or German or whatever)

, I can gaurantee you that the average clerk does NOT - even when in a position where they should.

Like in a hotel. I have seen this happen many times in Korea...the expat is happy in their cocoon of "English Town" until things go wrong and they discover that the wife's English is not as fluent as they thought it would be...or that the family suddenly speaks to them only in Korean...or that the local doctor ...you get the picture. I accept that some people will never learn a second language well

and that some just aren't comfortable with speaking a second language. Fair enough.

But for those who arejust lazy it seems to me to be a waste ...why not empower yourself - I don't get it.

[alantheembalmer]

I don't know about anyone else but I always feel very uncomfortable, and even sometimes embarrassed, when I try to speak a foreign language. I know it might be appreciated by the local population, but I always breath a sigh of relief when they start to speak English to me, (no matter where I am in the world). Surely the whole point about any communication is to strive to understand each other, and on many occasions this comes down to the participants willingness to be patient and helpful to the other person.

[Naam]

The same people are also usually able to give long and elaborate explanations as to why they can't speak it.

let me make you happy with a short explanation. i see no need to waste my precious time learning a language that doesn't give me any benefits.

What an ignorant thing to say.

what an intelligent remark

I'm glad you agree

Even in Pattaya, a knowledge of Thai would benefit you.

I imagine that most Thais there are very happy that residents have your attitude - they can squeeze more out of you.

so what? that happened (and still happens) to me in countries where i speak the language fluently. as long as i receive a good service/product and i am not blatantly cheated i have and will tolerate it. some of the contractors (e.g. my electrician) doing quite often odd jobs for me have stopped giving me a price. they know they fare much better with the answer "up to you" when i ask "how much?" on the other hand they also know that i demand and expect the best possible service they are able to render, punctuality and no dilly-dallying.

If you spoke Thai, you'd hear the correct rates for elecricians etc, and they wouldn't say "up to you". I bet they have a big smile when they say that

i do know the correct rates for thai electricians as well as the going rates for most artisans/workmen. i was also aware, a week or two ago, what the four poor buggers (two men, two women) were paid per day who worked for a landscaping company filling up a part of my pond by carting soil from 9 big trucks with wheel barrows over a distance of 40 meters. furthermore i was aware that besides paying a fancy² price to the landscaper there was no requirement to tip the workers. inspite of all that knowledge i tipped them each 1,000 Baht.

AND GUESS WHAT!? they were very happy and i felt happy too

[clausewitz]

A Thai waiing an alien is not that common anyhow. return.

I get wai-ed about 20 times /day at my company.

[Ratsima]

Another decent thread bites the dust....

[bkkjames]

Firstly, my Thai is not as good as it should be but it's not bad. Funny thing is, when I have had a couple drinks it gets remarkably better, just rolls off the tongue.

One thing I have noticed though is those who take lessons upon arriving here, and get fairly fluent with it in a relatively short period of time, suffer from what I call - Language Ability Yes - Cultural Sensitivity No.

With someone's fairly good knowledge of the language - Thais normally assume this means one has been here awhile and should have figured out the do's and don'ts. In a way those who have been here quite awhile are held to higher standards in terms of our actions, unlike a first timer who may be forgiven for things like pointing their feet, touching kids on the head etc.

So in conclusion, I don't think it is rude not to become fluent in Thai, I do think it's rude to walk around showing off one's fantastic language abilities but at the same time pointing their feet at an image / statue of Bhudda while in a wat etc.

Actions Speak Louder Than Words.

[TheDon]

People who live in Thailand and think they dont need to learn Thai are just ignorant. There is no other way of looking at it.

[bkkjames]

People who live in Thailand and think they dont need to learn Thai are just ignorant. There is no other way of looking at it.

Spoken from a guy who lives in OZ yet doesn't speak English half the time.

[TheDon]

People who live in Thailand and think they dont need to learn Thai are just ignorant. There is no other way of looking at it.

Spoken from a guy who lives in OZ yet doesn't speak English half the time.

I speak Australian. Is better then english

[cheshiremusicman]

so i understand that there are obvious benefits to becoming fluent in Thai my question though is do you think it is rude to Thai people if you stay here long term without learning to speak Thai fluently? I think it would be embarrasing to meet your child's teachers and tell them you have lived here X years while not speaking fluent Thai.

I have a hard time making time to learn Thai. For awhile I had it in my IPOD, but then I realized Id much rather listen to music. I would not call it an enjoyable hobby. Yeah, I was thrilled when I went from noob to intermediate, but going from intermediate to fluent seems to have very limited benefits besides face/bragging rights.

For those who have been here many years without speaking fluently, are you embarrassed about it? Is your wife embarrassed about it?

I don't think that it is 'rude' to Thai people, but I do think that in trying to learn and speak Thai ( no matter how badly ) shows respect for the country and the people of that country in which we are living.

My wife and I, now spend about 2 hours on a sunday morning with a new Thai friend. She wants to improve her English language skills and we want to learn Thai from a native speaker. The lady in question has studied English at University and speaks and writes English far better than a lot of born-and-bred English people that I can mention. In fact, here knowledge of the grammar is quite amazing; but SHE still wants to improve - so why shouldn't WE. Our time is split between us and we try to help her in formulating letters for her business matters, as well as answering here questions about English.

I don't have a good memory - my wifes is much better than mine, but I am now in the process of trying to memorise the Thai alphabet and am finding this challenging but fun. Admittedly I can only write the first 15 consonant characters correctly after some 3 weeks of struggling with the memory, but even now this minute amount of info has helped me to try and pronounce some of the Thai words or at least have a guess as to how they end - but a heck of a long way to go I know!

I am sure, that I will never become 'fluent' iN Thai, but I do think that you gain some respect by trying - no matter where in the world you are.

I have the greatest admiration for anybody who tries to learn new skills and I have to admit that we the English, are renowned for our insular attitude regarding learning other languages - always expecting other people to speak English for our benefit.

Good luck to all of you for TRYING to learn Thai.

[Tinkelbell]

'Wai' is a form of Thais showing respect.

It's very common practice for children wai parents, young wai elderly, pupits, students wai their teachers, employees wai their boss, low rank officer wai higher rank officer... and so on.

A girl from a good Thai family is taught to wai (sits on her knees) the husband at bed time. Thai believe it brings prosperity and happiness for the couple.

Whenever I receive a wai, I always returning a wai.

But in my whole life I have never seen any Thai returns wai to their maid or servant.

[solent01]

But in my whole life I have never seen any Thai returns wai to their maid or servant.

Of course not Tinkelbell, thats not the argument thats running, I have many staff, and I never Wai them (although I do acknowledge them with a nod of my head)

I think the argument we are locked into is why "Wai" a person you think is beneath you, when in fact they may well be above you, and vise versa (a pure psychological argument), and do you really care?

Maybe we should split this to a different thread?

Edited July 23, 2008 by solent01

[teacup]

A girl from a good Thai family is taught to wai (sits on her knees) the husband at bed time. Thai believe it brings prosperity and happiness for the couple.

That makes me “a bad girl” from a good family then, cuz I don’t wai to him, and we are a happy couple because of it

[Tinkelbell]

But in my whole life I have never seen any Thai returns wai to their maid or servant.

Of course not Tinkelbell, thats not the argument thats running, I have many staff, and I never Wai them (although I do acknowledge them with a nod of my head)

I think the argument we are locked into is why "Wai" a person you think is beneath you, when in fact they may well be above you (a pure physiological argument), and do you really care?

Maybe we should split this to a different thread?

I deliberated said out this sentence to serve as a reminding to a farang I once witnessed wai his Thai newly hired housekeeper. It seems he learned this culture of 'wai' but not deep enough.