Selling A House In Pattaya

[gmac]

One thing that still makes me wonder is...I rent my house @ 13,000 a month. The other house on the compound would go for 16,000 - but is empty for almost a year by now. There were maybe three people looking at it during that year.

Anyways, I asked the landlord how much they want for both houses...5.5 Million. I keep renting

There are more and more houses in the village up for rent and buy. Seems like nobody bites at this time.

Sounds like a lot of house for not too much rent, which village and how far into the darkside if you don't mind me asking Raro? I'm in a Condo at the moment but am considering moving to a house when my contract expires at the end of October. PM me if you don't mind replying but don't want the world and his dog knowing where you are!

[dhind1]

I wish you god luck finding a buyer for your house. I bought 4 years ago withmy wife and I would like a larger house, but will not consider buying again for a while. There are just too many homes for sale here.

[thaimate]

after being an agent for many years in the uk and having agent friends here, i wouldnt buy a house in Pattaya under any circumstances,far better to rent ,i have a large detached 3 bed 3 bath house nice garden 28000 b a month ,when i die my wife and son will leave and build a house where she wants(not pattaya) she knows she couldnt sell it

at the end of the day ,as the thai ladies say---up to you, but thats my many years of experiance talking.

[NotNew2You]

the unceretainty introduced 2 years ago when the Government said they would enforce the laws relating to these 'fake' companies, became the 'tipping' point for many potential house buyers.

All this talk went out the window when the "interim" government was replaced with the current elected PAP party. Any Thai long termer knew it would.

But the basic reason for the slow property market is the economic turmoil in many Western countries from where many foreign buyers originate. The drop in some foreign currencies vis-a-vis the baht certainly doesn't help...making even a house on the market for the same price the past 2 years up to 30% more expensive for some to buy. I think another factor is the continued muddled visa situation regarding foreigners in Thailand. If they ever got their act together like Malaysia and the Phils, and introduced a practical and fair long-term residency and home ownership scheme for retirees, the market would definitely pick-up in a big way IMHO.

Edited July 28, 2008 by NotNew2You

[redman]

You may be right, but that reason is only one from many.

As for getting their act together like PI or Malaysia, why would they at the moment? Too busy savinig their own skins to worry about foreigners houses. Let's face it, houses for foreigners would be well down the list of priorities in any European or American country, why should it be different here? With such blatant nationalist propaganda being spewed and an inbuilt policy of blaming others, changes ain't gonna happen any time soon. Unless you are listen to an estate agent

[beginner]

the unceretainty introduced 2 years ago when the Government said they would enforce the laws relating to these 'fake' companies, became the 'tipping' point for many potential house buyers.

All this talk went out the window when the "interim" government was replaced with the current elected PAP party. Any Thai long termer knew it would.

Are you sure about this?

The government gave a two year moratorium till October 2008 for people to get legal.

Could it be that existing Companies which were incorporated to solely own property will be allowed to continue to exist but that from October new company formation and transfer of ownership of existing non-compliant companies will not be allowed.

The originally announced policy may well be carried out by the Land Office and other civil servants regardless of the Political Party in power. The government have more important things to worry about.

That will leave house owners with the 'put it in the Thai name with conditions strategy' or some other scam dreamed up by those with a vested interest.

Things can change overnight here but giving farangs the right to own land is a political non starter. Developers often claim that a change is being considered but no politician who wants Thai votes will ever suggest it.

House renting at present is the securist way to proceed. A drive round the area will give you hundreds of options.

If you like to take a chance then cheap houses have changed hands on the Darkside from farang to Thai for around 50% of the original farang price paid. More expensive houses are probably unaffordable by the average Thai and are probably unsaleable even at a distress price. The internal layout is often too farang for Thai taste and living style.

Edited July 28, 2008 by beginner

[Mobi]

the unceretainty introduced 2 years ago when the Government said they would enforce the laws relating to these 'fake' companies, became the 'tipping' point for many potential house buyers.

All this talk went out the window when the "interim" government was replaced with the current elected PAP party. Any Thai long termer knew it would.

Are you sure about this?

The government gave a two year moratorium till October 2008 for people to get legal.

Could it be that existing Companies which were incorporated to solely own property will be allowed to continue to exist but that from October new company formation and transfer of ownership of existing non-compliant companies will not be allowed.

The originally announced policy may well be carried out by the Land Office and other civil servants regardless of the Political Party in power. The government have more important things to worry about.

That will leave house owners with the 'put it in the Thai name with conditions strategy' or some other scam dreamed up by those with a vested interest.

Things can change overnight here but giving farangs the right to own land is a political non starter. Developers often claim that a change is being considered but no politician who wants Thai votes will ever suggest it.

House renting at present is the securist way to proceed. A drive round the area will give you hundreds of options.

If you like to take a chance then cheap houses have changed hands on the Darkside from farang to Thai for around 50% of the original farang price paid. More expensive houses are probably unaffordable by the average Thai and are probably unsaleable even at a distress price. The internal layout is often too farang for Thai taste and living style.

And certainly too expensive for most Thais on maintenance and upkeep

Interesting post. When all this trouble first started I spent a lot of money to have my company closed and the house transferred into my wife's name, with a usufruct giving me lifetime 'residence rights'.

I fully appreciated that all the fuss would probably disappear, but you can never be sure about anything in this country, and I have never regretted doing it, as it has saved me many sleepless nights worrying about what might happen.

You may well be correct in your summation, so at least I have all that worry behind me.

I have to say that if the legal issue about farangs owning houses through companies, had blown up about a year before it did, then there is no way I would have built my house and I would have definitely rented.

But I am where I am - no intention of ever selling, and no regrets

[prefabs]

Excellent thread all round, except for a couple of insults being thrown early on. Maybe Sunday lunchtime had an adverse effect.

To sum it all up so far, the OP, for many different reasons, will have a real hard time selling at his asking price. I add one more reason. In a village with few houses actually sold, there would be security concerns. From what I read before, seems that the house is some way out of town, therefore the police might take a while to respond to any calls. It may be that houses in more mature villages with greater occupancy levels will be more attractive to buyers and renters, when and if the market conditions improve.

I have no idea what makes estate agents tell a vendor that values the house at ????? baht, but I would have thought market value is based on what is selling nearby, not what nearby adverts say. If nothing is selling, then follow accepted practices in the West i.e. drop your price. Unless you really are in a fix or believe what agents spout out.

Are agents paid by the week, or month, or just a sign on fee and commission?

[redman]

Excellent thread all round, except for a couple of insults being thrown early on. Maybe Sunday lunchtime had an adverse effect.

To sum it all up so far, the OP, for many different reasons, will have a real hard time selling at his asking price. I add one more reason. In a village with few houses actually sold, there would be security concerns. From what I read before, seems that the house is some way out of town, therefore the police might take a while to respond to any calls. It may be that houses in more mature villages with greater occupancy levels will be more attractive to buyers and renters, when and if the market conditions improve.

I have no idea what makes estate agents tell a vendor that values the house at ????? baht, but I would have thought market value is based on what is selling nearby, not what nearby adverts say. If nothing is selling, then follow accepted practices in the West i.e. drop your price. Unless you really are in a fix or believe what agents spout out.

Are agents paid by the week, or month, or just a sign on fee and commission?

Are there many farang Real Estate foot soldiers working in town at the moment? I mean the guys who do the work, not the actual bosses. I tend not to go to town very often and almost never during daytime. I would imagine they must be feeling the pinch more than others.

[LennyW]

after being an agent for many years in the uk and having agent friends here,

i wouldnt buy a house in Pattaya under any circumstances,far better to rent ,

i have a large detached 3 bed 3 bath house nice garden 28000 b a month ,when i die my wife and son will leave and build a house where she wants(not pattaya) she knows she couldnt sell it

at the end of the day ,as the thai ladies say---up to you, but thats my many years of experiance talking.

Someone needs to own the property in order for it to be rented out surely.......

[zorro1]

after being an agent for many years in the uk and having agent friends here, i wouldnt buy a house in Pattaya under any circumstances,far better to rent ,i have a large detached 3 bed 3 bath house nice garden 28000 b a month ,when i die my wife and son will leave and build a house where she wants(not pattaya) she knows she couldnt sell it

at the end of the day ,as the thai ladies say---up to you, but thats my many years of experiance talking.

Where would your wife buy that would be a hot seller? just curious as I'm sure many here are as well

[johnh101]

I would doubt she cares what the resale value would be, most thai's have no interest in selling. They live in a house until they die and then it is passed to children.

[think_too_mut]

after being an agent for many years in the uk and having agent friends here,

i wouldnt buy a house in Pattaya under any circumstances,far better to rent ,

i have a large detached 3 bed 3 bath house nice garden 28000 b a month ,when i die my wife and son will leave and build a house where she wants(not pattaya) she knows she couldnt sell it

at the end of the day ,as the thai ladies say---up to you, but thats my many years of experiance talking.

Someone needs to own the property in order for it to be rented out surely.......

Unsold condos become serviced apartments, still belonging to the developer who has no way of getting rid of them.

That is unintentional ownership...but you are right, surely, someone owns them.

[NotNew2You]

You may be right, but that reason is only one from many.

As for getting their act together like PI or Malaysia, why would they at the moment? Too busy savinig their own skins to worry about foreigners houses.

Yes I completely agree...notice I said "IF" they ever get their act together...not that I believed they would anytime in my lifetime.

All that being said, houses that are reasonably priced and in well managed villages DO sell. In my Rattanakorn village (one of many on soi Nernplubwan), since I moved in (as a renter 2 years ago) 4-5 houses have changed hands. When I first moved in, there were 3 houses for sale and they have all been sold. These have all been resales, so sales were not helped by any extensive and expensive developer marketing campaigns. Currently, of the 25 or so houses in the village, none are for sale. These are 3-4 BR houses, nothing fancy but nice that are about 6 years old. When new, the old-timers in the village tell me they sold for B 800k-B 1M and the resales have been for B 2.1-B 2.4M. Not a bad investment for the original off-plan buyers...more than double you money (while you live in it) in half a decade.

This is the sweet-spot in Pattaya homes...B 2.5-B 5M IMHO. All this B 7M - B 15M is just nuts...only for suckers. Of course, you won't find these cheaper homes by looking in the glossy RE magazines...you find them by looking around.

[NotNew2You]

All this talk went out the window when the "interim" government was replaced with the current elected PAP party. Any Thai long termer knew it would.

Are you sure about this?

The government gave a two year moratorium till October 2008 for people to get legal.

What is the saying...a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. YES I am sure. The proposed changes and re-interpretation of the laws and regulations regarding the use of nominees in relation to the ownership structure of Thai corporations (whether to own/hold/develop real property or engage in other businesses), which were introduced by the coup-installed interim government, were not passed into law by the time the interim government's time in office expired. Neither the current elected People's Party (or the opposition Democrat party) support the proposed changes, and therefore, have not re-introduced them for consideration by the current government. So they are effectively dead for now (and likely to remain so for the foreseeable future ,as both of the main political parties are against them).

Sorry to say, all the hyper-ventilating by some RE agents and corp. lawyers about the coming changes and the need to pay lots of money to them to change the structure of people's home ownership sturctures was incorrect. Very likely you worried for nothing and wasted your money changing the ownership structure of you house.

Edited July 29, 2008 by NotNew2You

[prefabs]

I see the latest garbage to spout from Real Estate "professionals" is to buy now as the cost of materials is shooting up. So, in a market where no one is buying, they tell us the the cost of new builds is rising. But, with thousands of empty houses, new and second hand, who would commission a new build? When one considers that it would be difficult to find a house in Pattaya which is more than 10 years old, they are all new/nearly new.

[Chaimai]

What I have not seen in recent posts is an objective from real estate professionals.

There are a number of sponsors of this forum who surely have the good grace, and balls, to come on here and tell us HONESTLY how it really is.

If the market is great - provide some evidence. If it is not then tell us how you see it.

In the UK I have estate agents friends who are prepared to speak the truth. It is sh1t and they admit it - they are selling a quarter of properties compared to 12 months ago.

[beginner]

All this talk went out the window when the "interim" government was replaced with the current elected PAP party. Any Thai long termer knew it would.

Are you sure about this?

The government gave a two year moratorium till October 2008 for people to get legal.

What is the saying...a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. YES I am sure. The proposed changes and re-interpretation of the laws and regulations regarding the use of nominees in relation to the ownership structure of Thai corporations (whether to own/hold/develop real property or engage in other businesses), which were introduced by the coup-installed interim government, were not passed into law by the time the interim government's time in office expired.

Its not the proposed changes that are a reason for caution but the actual existing law and regulations that were circumvented by (il)legal schemes.

As you say, the fundamental changes proposed in 2006 have not been enacted.

The old existing FBA and Land Act regulations still apply and the new 'joined up' computer technology is capable of scrutinising new applications in a way that previously they were not.

You are sure that nothing will change in October. Some other people are not quite so sure. Maybe you will be proved correct.

Nothing is set in stone here in Thailand but the company ownership route is riskier than other ways of securing the right to occupy a house.

[raro]

One thing that still makes me wonder is...I rent my house @ 13,000 a month. The other house on the compound would go for 16,000 - but is empty for almost a year by now. There were maybe three people looking at it during that year.

Anyways, I asked the landlord how much they want for both houses...5.5 Million. I keep renting

There are more and more houses in the village up for rent and buy. Seems like nobody bites at this time.

Sounds like a lot of house for not too much rent, which village and how far into the darkside if you don't mind me asking Raro? I'm in a Condo at the moment but am considering moving to a house when my contract expires at the end of October. PM me if you don't mind replying but don't want the world and his dog knowing where you are!

There are plenty of empty houses on the dark side. Just drive around and you will find them. PM is out, I hate signing autographs at the front door...

[dsfbrit]

What I have not seen in recent posts is an objective from real estate professionals.

There are a number of sponsors of this forum who surely have the good grace, and balls, to come on here and tell us HONESTLY how it really is.

If the market is great - provide some evidence. If it is not then tell us how you see it.

In the UK I have estate agents friends who are prepared to speak the truth. It is sh1t and they admit it - they are selling a quarter of properties compared to 12 months ago.

This is in no way meant to try to start a lot of posts about dishonest Estate Agents blah blah...

BUT... in the UK Estate Agents have little choice but to be 'honest'.

Nearly every other day the national newspapers have information from the Land Registry Office, Rightmove, Hometrack, Channel 4 House Renovation Programmes, RICS, Surveyors etc.. etc... The statistics are everywhere.

Also every time you go to a dinner party much of the conversation is about house prices.

In Thailand its a bit different. The few statistics that there are, are hard to believe.

As for the Real Estate agents here on Thai Visa, I would suggest the fact that none of them have posted a reply offering to sell the OPs house for him - suggests just how bad the market is

Lets face if, I would be very surprised if they they have not read this thread - if they haven't yet read this thread, they are not looking for all 'leads' like they should be.

Edited July 29, 2008 by dsfbrit

[Lazy Sod]

As for the Real Estate agents here on Thai Visa, I would suggest the fact that none of them have posted a reply offering to sell the OPs house for him - suggests just how bad the market is

Good point.

[jankrikke]

As for the Real Estate agents here on Thai Visa, I would suggest the fact that none of them have posted a reply offering to sell the OPs house for him - suggests just how bad the market is

Good point.

Is this problem with over-supply of residential property the same as with shophouses? Pattaya must have several thousand vacant shophouses, even on "good" locations like Third Road, yet they continue to build new buildings. The same with codo's. Is this a matter of people having too much money not knowing what else to do with it?

[redman]

From what I see at the Sukhumvit end of Soi Siam Country Club, there are about 300 metres of new shophouses newly built there. Very few are populated, but I think a Gold Shop is opening. So very soon there will be more Gold Shops.

Ideal for choking the road once all the usual motorbike parking halfway across the street takes effect.

Maybe the shophouses were built for estate agents who are preparing for the upcoming property boom. Saves a trip into town.

[Chaimai]

From what I see at the Sukhumvit end of Soi Siam Country Club, there are about 300 metres of new shophouses newly built there. Very few are populated, but I think a Gold Shop is opening. So very soon there will be more Gold Shops.

Ideal for choking the road once all the usual motorbike parking halfway across the street takes effect.

Maybe the shophouses were built for estate agents who are preparing for the upcoming property boom. Saves a trip into town.

Despite being against all economic gravitational forces, I suspect that within 12 months all those shop house will be occupied - albeit with bar girl clothes you can buy for 20% less on Third Road or Bukhao market (plus one or two gold shops).

Maybe all those motorbikes will relieve the pressure on Soi Nern Plub Wan ?

[Naam]

Is this problem with over-supply of residential property the same as with shophouses? Pattaya must have several thousand vacant shophouses, even on "good" locations like Third Road, yet they continue to build new buildings. The same with codo's. Is this a matter of people having too much money not knowing what else to do with it?

traditionally a lot of "black" money is flowing into construction where it is quite easy to "launder" it.

[redman]

Soi Khao Talo is also seeing a huge amoount of Shophouse developement. I feel sorry for those who bought in Ekmongol 3 and 4. Their view is very restricted now. Reminds me of countries where all the people move from the countryside into towns looking for work, They can't find work, but housing is expensive, then crime starts to rise, with obvious knock on effects.

[billaaa777]

What I have not seen in recent posts is an objective from real estate professionals.

There are a number of sponsors of this forum who surely have the good grace, and balls, to come on here and tell us HONESTLY how it really is.

If the market is great - provide some evidence. If it is not then tell us how you see it.

In the UK I have estate agents friends who are prepared to speak the truth. It is sh1t and they admit it - they are selling a quarter of properties compared to 12 months ago.

I am not a real estate agent, but I am in the real estate business and deal in condominiums usually in the 3.0 million range. Consequently I communicate with the vast majority or the larger agencies on a weekly or biweekly basis.

I have good news for you trying to sell your homes. The sale of homes is definitely on the upswing. Approximately two years ago the government publicized a new interpretation of an existing law that dealt with companies and home ownership. For the next year or so very few homes were sold. But since then month by month the sales of home have been slowly increasing each month.

I spoke with one agent this week and he told me his office sold eight houses this month. He knows I do nothing with houses so he has no reason to lie to me. Another single agent in a large office informed me she herself sold three houses this month. So I can positively see an increase home sales.

But, as with all real estate you really need to know the market and fully understand the competition. In Pattaya, as in most places, the big three are location, quality of renovations and price. Therefore, for those of you having difficulty selling your home I would suggest you conduct extensive investigation into your opposition. Obliviously there is very little you can do regarding your location, but your surly can upgrade your renovation and adjust your price.

Another factor to consider is speaking with the real estate agents and gaining knowledge. Personally I take most of what they say with a grain of salt. I am trying to pick their brains for what is selling and what price range is selling at the present time and then I make my own decisions on what and where to buy.

The vast majority of my knowledge comes from the real estate agents web sites and the different real estate publications that are available for free every where. I take into account the asking price of the units and then discount it from 5 to 10 percent to calculate the actual selling price of a condo. With a house, you might want to adjust this figure upwards a few points.

The final point I would like to make is we are just starting to leave the slow season now. You should slowly see an increase in traffic gradually over the next few months with it peeking in December, although for some reason November has less traffic but higher sales. It will gradually decrease from December until March and then be dead from April to the middle of July. Over 75 per cent of my sales come in the finally four months of the year.

I hope this helps a little. And for those of you trying to sell your houses, keep your heads up and don’t get discouraged. The times are getting better little by little. And defiantly take the time and spend the money to upgrade your property, it does not cost very much and could mean the difference between it selling or you sitting on it.

[quiksilva]

wow such an insightful post... how could one possibly argue with a football fan's logic?

[Eastcoast]

After a bit of a push from Mr. Redman and following on from a very well written response from Mr. Billaaa777 I feel encouraged to answer. I AM a real estate agent. Most of what Billaaa777 has written is correct regarding the housing market at the present time. In the 10 years we have been running our business the last 2 have been the most difficult for selling any type of landed property. The good news is that things are slowly picking up again. We have sold 5 houses this month and 3 pieces of land. May not sound a lot but believe me that is much better than this time a year ago.

Regarding the Central Park House.... Difficult to know what to say really. I think we may even be the agency that listed the home!! Sorry if that's the case. We have various homes listed at or around 4,500,000 in that development. Problem with such developments is they just keep building more. The competiton is not really from other private sellers but the developer itself. You have to know when you buy in a village with a number after it's name that they will keep building. Since Central Park built village 4 they have started 2or 3 more villages. All similar in design, finish and price. Most people like new homes, fact. They have prominent advertising and sales offices on site. Why buy a home 10-20% more expensive from a private seller than directly from the developer. Very frustrating situation. Just trying to get your money back can be very difficult. Only ray of hope I can provide is that with the rise in construction cost over the last year and potentially over the next few years is that your home will start to look better value for money against the developers. This is starting to happen...... I think the second hand property market will come back stonger than ever over the next 2 years simply due to that fact.

I would suggest all home owners that have listed properties with agencies over the last year or so to re-visit the agencies. Refresh the memories of the agents and make sure that all sales agents in the company know about the property not just the listing guy or the front desk secretary. The most succesful investors are the guys that list their properties with many agents and continually visit them to get updates and create a relationship with the actual sales guys. You need to list with as many agents as possible. Do not be scared to use back street guys, new start up companies etc. Just make sure that when it comes to the serious stuff of completion and transfer that you have good legal council to look after your interests and keep control of all monies. You never know who is going to have the prospective purchaser so list everywhere. Don't blame the agents too much, the clients have just not been there.....

Condominums are very similar. I think over the coming months many of these high rise tower projects will simply fail due to low sales in the Thai ownership quota and the increase in construction cost. I certainly would not buy in any high rise development that has been selling for more than 1 year and not started construction yet. The difference in construction cost and the low sales in the Thai quota makes these building totally unviable. If I were buying now it would be the older existing buildings, new developments that are at least 50-60% complete or new developments in direct beachfront locations with well funded development companies with a strong history of construction in Thailand.

Regards,

David

East Coast Real Estate

[redman]

David,

thanks for your post. One from the pack is better than none at all, I suppose. We have an over supply of houses, an over supply of developers and an over supply of estate agents it seems. NO real soultion, though