Is There A Serious Flaw In Padi Dive Training ?

[skippybangkok]

Been diving for yonks, and remember vaugely the " swim holding your breath test ".

My brother-in-law's friend died a few days back in Melbourne, still not clear about why other than he was found floating on the surface with no gear 8 mins into the dive.

Reason why i ask "flawed?" is cause we breath in, and then out, and then in, and then out and THEN - <deleted>, no air !. So when ur at that inhaling point, there is virtually no air in your lungs -see how far you make it now on a empty set of lungs.

Kinda gives one a false sense of security cause u can swim as far as you think.

Since i dive with a pony bottle, ( or mini tank with reg ) , kinda makes me appreciate it more now.

Everyone should have one !

[Basil B]

Is There A Serious Flaw In Padi Dive Training ?

Banging out divers on 4 day intensive courses with 4 OW dives and letting them think they now know everything about diving.

BB

[stiggy]

Im sorry to hear of your friends accident ...but I really have no idea what your point is so cannot give an answear

[froggshw]

Yes of course it's flawed,anyone thats been through the old BSAC or SAA training knows that.

Difference is that the BSAC/SAA way usually takes months an months to qualify,lots of scenario training to get you ready for your fist open water dives.

The PADI system is all about getting your money fast.

Thats my opinion.

Before the flaming starts about what is the best way to learn,I want to add that I've been diving more than 20 years,qualified the SAA way to dive leader,then done the BSAC way to dive leader again,then crossed over to PADI and went on to master scuba diver.

Froggs

[britmaveric]

PADI is alright for the recreational diver.

Sorry about your mate Skippy. Curious where was his buddy? Why did he run out of air??? (personally very paranoid and constantly looking at my gauges and stick close to my buddy)

[Farma]

I’ve got similar thoughts to Froggs on the matter.

I went through BSAC to dive leader then crossed over to PADI and went on to Master Scuba Diver.

Having seen close friends learn both codes I tend to think PADI training could be improved. More emphasis on the safety aspects and dive discipline? There have been more than a few occasions when I’ve felt the need to stop soon after entering the water and run a quick refresher course.

Don’t get me wrong, both methods of training have their up and down sides although I’ve found as a general rule when diving with less experienced PADI divers they were lacking in the basics like buoyancy control, equipment checks and required more attention underwater.

[Doggsy]

I think the point is that if you have no air and you are not close to your buddy then obviously you have to swim upwards. Although you may have minimal air in your lungs at depth as you get shallower the air in your lungs expands thus filling your lungs thus giving you a more constant amount of air. If however you hold your breath you run the risk of the expanding air damaging your lungs that cant cope with the increased air volume in them

Edited August 3, 2008 by Doggsy

[skippybangkok]

I think the point is that if you have no air and you are not close to your buddy then obviously you have to swim upwards. Although you may have minimal air in your lungs at depth as you get shallower the air in your lungs expands thus filling your lungs thus giving you a more constant amount of air. If however you hold your breath you run the risk of the expanding air damaging your lungs that cant cope with the increased air volume in them

OK.......i know the theory, just messing around..lets run some numbers then.........

lets say ur at 20 meters = 3 atm.

healthy set of lungs = 4 liters at 1 atm

when breath out - how much is left in your lungs ? ( 1 liter ? )

So, 1 ltr @ 20 meters would expand on the way up........ will it fill up lungs ?

Like i said, the most likely scenario of being out of air is when you have breathed out, and now realize "oh <deleted>" and make a dash for it.As such, not much air.

Did not know the guy, but he was my brother in laws friend. Cause of death was listed as embolism creates by hole in the heart ( which he never knew he had ). Although tragic, i believe it consoled the family some what.

Buddy - i dont know, but lets face it, the more experience you get, the more you drift off.

BRIT - get yourself a spare air, or a 2nd small bottle (i.e. 30cm high ) with 2nd Reg - makes one feel tons more comfortable, and you enjoy your dive more ( less worry - more enjoyment).

[stevenl]

If you're under water, away from your buddy and you run out of air, you're in trouble, depending on your depth in serious trouble.

But that did mean some things went wrong already: first of all running out of air, normally diver error, very, very rarely equipment failure, secondly being away from the buddy.

Sure, a pony bottle would help in those cases, but that has nothing to do with PADI training, that is simply all diver training until very advanced levels.

IMO it would be way overdone to make e.g. pony bottles compulsory equipment.

[skippybangkok]

............. until very advanced levels.

Has anyone ever tried how far they can swim, with full gear on an emptyset of lungs ? never tried it, but my comfort level is not very far

Spare mini tank (p.s. i dont sell them ) - I dont believe its for "advanced" or super experienced divers. The issue is financial rather than experience. A cheap spare air cost about 9k baht. Why would even a diver with just 20 dives not dive with one if they have the dosh ?

Why would one opt for a parachute with no spare if they had the choice ? ( "sorry sir, you need more experience to deploy that one it could kill you if not used properly" ). - I know what i would choose.

Dived for a long time with a 2nd small set up, feel totally naked and exposed without it, and my dives are certainly less enjoyable.

Having a buddy as 3rd alternative makes me feel better than having him / her as a 2nd.

[britmaveric]

Not bad idea Skippy - always better to rely on yourself if emergency arrives. How much pony bottle setup run, and how do you normally carry it? Any chance can post a piccie?

As for running out of air - best bet drop weights and gear/make a rapid descent. Course bends might be an issue, but rather take that risk than the alternative which is death.

Edited August 4, 2008 by britmaveric

[percy2]

^ I strap a pony to my main tank and clip the reg for it where my octopus would have been.

Cost , you need a reg (1st + 2nd B2,700) a gauge (B2,500) , some form of mount (Webbing and buckles B1,000) and the bottle (3.7L B5,000) . So all in about B11,000 , you could probably do it cheaper and you can definitely make it much more expensive.

As for the best way to surface if you run out of air , wouldn't switching to your independent air supply and ascending steadily before doing a safety stop be much better

Cheers

[singa-traz]

I think the point is that if you have no air and you are not close to your buddy then obviously you have to swim upwards. Although you may have minimal air in your lungs at depth as you get shallower the air in your lungs expands thus filling your lungs thus giving you a more constant amount of air. If however you hold your breath you run the risk of the expanding air damaging your lungs that cant cope with the increased air volume in them

Buddy - i dont know, but lets face it, the more experience you get, the more you drift off.

BRIT - get yourself a spare air, or a 2nd small bottle (i.e. 30cm high ) with 2nd Reg - makes one feel tons more comfortable, and you enjoy your dive more ( less worry - more enjoyment).

If I remember correctly, breathing from your buddy's gear is learned and practiced during the training.

And staying close to your buddy is also one of the basic rules.

I will feel less than comfortable if my buddy did not trust me or I did not trust him ... even with a spare air.

[12DrinkMore]

Sorry about the accident.

Been diving for yonks, and remember vaugely the " swim holding your breath test ".

There is NO SUCH test in the entire PADI system.

On the contrary "out of air" situtations are practised during the Open Water Course. When the buddy is not around to provide an alternative air sourse, then the recommended ascent is to swim up exhaling continuously. This is practised horizontally in the pool and then also vertically in open water.

DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE THINK IT IS BETTER TO HOLD YOUR BREATH WHILE UNDERWATER ON SCUBA. THIS IS AN ABSOLUTELY STUPID SUGGESTION.

The air in your lungs will expand three times its volume from 20 metres to the surface. You will not notice the increasing pressure. A lung overexpansion injury, basically ripping a hole in your lungs and sending air into the chest cavity and/or blood stream, is the MOST SERIOUS INJURY you can give yourself diving. It can lead to loss of consciousness, irrepairable brain and tissue damage and DEATH.

Keep the regulator in your mouth and breath out continuously; as you ascend the reducing ambient pressure will allow a little more air to be available from your tank, which you might be able to use.

One of the posters above tried to justify it with one particlular scenario. DO NOT EVEN THINK ABOUT IT, THIS IS A LIFE THREATENING SUGGESTION. (maybe the moderators should even remove it... it is so dangerous)

Once again I will repeat the number one rule in SCUBA diving, irrespective of which agency you train with.

NEVER HOLD YOUR BREATH WHILST ON SCUBA.

And if you haven't dived for a couple of years and only have a few dives under the belt, or feel that you are no longer 100% compentant with the equipment, procedures and diving techniques, then take a refresher course. Only takes half a day and you will feel much more confident during the dives. Otherwise you are a liability for yourself and your buddies, at best you will shorten the dive and at worse you will panic at 20 metres with possibly fatal consequences.

[britmaveric]

As for the best way to surface if you run out of air , wouldn't switching to your independent air supply and ascending steadily before doing a safety stop be much better

Cheers

Cheers for pony info.

As for the emergency ascent - as I stated meant if you have no air and no other options available. Quite correct if you have alternative source for air - then that is always your first option.

Edited August 4, 2008 by britmaveric

[12DrinkMore]

Not bad idea Skippy - always better to rely on yourself if emergency arrives. How much pony bottle setup run, and how do you normally carry it? Any chance can post a piccie?

As for running out of air - best bet drop weights and gear/make a rapid descent. Course bends might be an issue, but rather take that risk than the alternative which is death.

And the STUPID and DANGEROUS suggestions keep on coming.

If you are diving profiles within the recreational diving limits and making the proper surfuce intervals, then "the bends" which are caused by Nitrogen bubbles, is not an issue.

NEVER even THINK about removing your SCUBA unit. You will, or should be, neutrally buoyant during the dive and also at the point of the out-of-air emergency. As soon as you start the ascent this air will expand and give you positive buoyancy, ie take you to the surface. This air should be slowly released to prevent a too rapid ascent, and at the same time you should be exhaling continuously. On the surface the BCD (jacket) can be orally inflated, giving you positive buoyancy.

(And PLEASE no STUPID suggestions that maybe you can breath using air in the BCD)

The ONLY situation that you should drop weights is if you are very deep and/or don't that you will reach the surface whilst still conscious.

You can avoid all of this by constantly checking the pressure guage, both yours and your buddy's, ending the dive when someone reaches 50 Bar and use well maintained equipment

[percy2]

Sorry about the accident.

Been diving for yonks, and remember vaugely the " swim holding your breath test ".

There is NO SUCH test in the entire PADI system.

On the contrary "out of air" situtations are practised during the Open Water Course. When the buddy is not around to provide an alternative air sourse, then the recommended ascent is to swim up exhaling continuously. This is practised horizontally in the pool and then also vertically in open water.

DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE THINK IT IS BETTER TO HOLD YOUR BREATH WHILE UNDERWATER ON SCUBA. THIS IS AN ABSOLUTELY STUPID SUGGESTION.

The air in your lungs will expand three times its volume from 20 metres to the surface. You will not notice the increasing pressure. A lung overexpansion injury, basically ripping a hole in your lungs and sending air into the chest cavity and/or blood stream, is the MOST SERIOUS INJURY you can give yourself diving. It can lead to loss of consciousness, irrepairable brain and tissue damage and DEATH.

Keep the regulator in your mouth and breath out continuously; as you ascend the reducing ambient pressure will allow a little more air to be available from your tank, which you might be able to use.

One of the posters above tried to justify it with one particlular scenario. DO NOT EVEN THINK ABOUT IT, THIS IS A LIFE THREATENING SUGGESTION. (maybe the moderators should even remove it... it is so dangerous)

Once again I will repeat the number one rule in SCUBA diving, irrespective of which agency you train with.

NEVER HOLD YOUR BREATH WHILST ON SCUBA.

And if you haven't dived for a couple of years and only have a few dives under the belt, or feel that you are no longer 100% compentant with the equipment, procedures and diving techniques, then take a refresher course. Only takes half a day and you will feel much more confident during the dives. Otherwise you are a liability for yourself and your buddies, at best you will shorten the dive and at worse you will panic at 20 metres with possibly fatal consequences.

Before anybody answers could could advise how experienced a diver you are?

Cheers

[britmaveric]

Quite correct PADI teaches one to never hold your breathe, never heard of hold your breathe technique either.

[12DrinkMore]

Before anybody answers could could advise how experienced a diver you are?

Cheers

14 Years expereince, PADI Master Instructor, more than 2,500 dives, certified over 400 divers up to Assistant Instructor level. First Aid instructor trainer. Dive shop manager.

[percy2]

Before anybody answers could could advise how experienced a diver you are?

Cheers

14 Years expereince, PADI Master Instructor, more than 2,500 dives, certified over 400 divers up to Assistant Instructor level. First Aid instructor trainer. Dive shop manager.

Do you think its safe to dive with an inexperienced buddy?

Cheers

[froggshw]

Excellent posts 12drinkmore,and totally correct.

I would like to add that if the proper training had been recieved,an out of air situation would never occur ! (unless equipment failure)which is very rare).

If you are starting a dive with 250/300 bar in your bottle,you should be heading to the surface with 70/100 bar still left in the bottle at the end of the dive.

golden rule..plan your dive..dive your plan.

When I did my training years ago,we spent a day in a flooded dry dock(20 metres deep) practising "out of air ascents" 1 breath of air from bottom to top,2 safety divers right next to us in training,it took more than 1 go to get the feel of it.

I did run out of air once before whilst doing a deco stop at 10m,fortunatlely I didnt get bent.

Safe diving everyone

Froggs

[percy2]

Which is the safest alternate air supply?

One that is a redundant part of your own equipment or one that is strapped to someone else's back , who may or may not be near you and will be greedily using it up.

Cheers

[percy2]

I would like to add that if the proper training had been recieved,an out of air situation would never occur ! (unless equipment failure)which is very rare).

Froggs

Is it never or rare?

Cheers

[12DrinkMore]

Do you think its safe to dive with an inexperienced buddy?

Yes, of course it is, PROVIDED you dive within the limits of THEIR training and diving experience.

So for a typical newly certified Open Water diver trained in tropical waters at 28 degrees, good visibility, no current, maximum depth 18 metres, it is safe to build up experience in these conditions.

The problems start when divers move out of these limits into bad visibilty, strong currents, overhead environments, cold water etc. without the training and experience to handle them.

[britmaveric]

^Exactly - general rule check gauges regularly and start thinking of coming back up after 100bar reserve is left in the tank.

[percy2]

^ The problem with these answers is they are full of ifs.

Cheers

[percy2]

Do you think its safe to dive with an inexperienced buddy?

Yes, of course it is, PROVIDED you dive within the limits of THEIR training and diving experience.

So for a typical newly certified Open Water diver trained in tropical waters at 28 degrees, good visibility, no current, maximum depth 18 metres, it is safe to build up experience in these conditions.

The problems start when divers move out of these limits into bad visibilty, strong currents, overhead environments, cold water etc. without the training and experience to handle them.

According to PADI what are the limits on visibility / current speed / water temperature for 2 newly qualified open water divers to rely on each others air supply?

Cheers

[singa-traz]

Do you think its safe to dive with an inexperienced buddy?

Yes, of course it is, PROVIDED you dive within the limits of THEIR training and diving experience.

So for a typical newly certified Open Water diver trained in tropical waters at 28 degrees, good visibility, no current, maximum depth 18 metres, it is safe to build up experience in these conditions.

The problems start when divers move out of these limits into bad visibilty, strong currents, overhead environments, cold water etc. without the training and experience to handle them.

According to PADI what are the limits on visibility / current speed / water temperature for 2 newly qualified open water divers to rely on each others air supply?

Cheers

Before anyone answers, why don't you share with the rest of us your extensive and qualified diving experience?

[percy2]

I'm a qualified diver with training in rescue , first aid and technical diving.

I have around 1,000 dives (not including training dives which shouldn't count IMHO)

How about you?

Cheers

[froggshw]

Heh....I stopped logging dives after 2000...more than 10 years ago

Froggs