About 10,000 People Demonstrate In Front Of British Embassy

[phutoie2]

Pleased I did my business in Wireless Road last week!!

[Shotime]

I thought Vietnam released Gary.

The Brits do have an interest in what goes on here. The Kingdom is still pushing the buttons.I'm not bashing the Brits. I admire their attitude. Everything they do appears very proper.

It really does appear as a charade. I'll read the paper today, as I'd like to know who is delivering what letter. Whoever it is, he looks like he's doing pretty good.

[Los78]

Onslaught on PAD is coming from all directions in this thread:

From Journalist:

They all behaved impeccably

From JJJ:

There called a linch "mob"

Can you make up your minds, guys?

As for Journalist - if you pretend to apply reason and knowledge before coming to your conclusions - PAD has been on the streets for many many months. They are very well organised and they have leadership that is firmly in charge, and they have lots of experience.

If they decide that they should round up their protest before people need to pick up their kids from schools - that's what will happen, they've got it under control. Last time they were taken to court for inconveniencing school children, this time they were more careful.

But with this PAD attacking crowd - dam_n if you do and dam_n if you don't, they'd just post rubbish and contradict themselves at every step if it suits their purpose.

I dont see any more contradictions then you and your PAD friends constantly post.... You should also wake up and relise thats PAD's (People's Alliance for Dictatorship) aims are for divisions in Thailand.

Their nutty views are not welcome by the majority of the people who elected a democratically elected government so its only natural why people are expressing their concerns against this annoying rent a mob.

[geriatrickid]

I suppose one of the benefits of being unemployed in Thailand is that you can go and waste a day shouting slogans outside the British embassy. PAD is underestimating the British ability to give a stiff upper lip for public consumption.

Considering that the foreign ministry had to contend with much worse following the publication of Salman Rushdie's book, the PAD demonstrations picked the wrong place to protest. In the interim, Thais should show solidarity and not go asking for visas to the UK. That would really punish those horrid Brits.

[Los78]

can someone please explain the PAD to me?

obviously the government knew thaskin was doing a runner if they didnt want him to do a runner he would not have been allowed to leave. wife gets convicted and heads on vacation...

so <deleted> is PAD's role in all of this?

There called a linch "mob", that's the politest way of putting it.

PAD (People's Alliance for Dictatorship) OR (People Against Democracy)

Actually they can be called both of those names since its what they stand for...

[younghusband]

The British Ambassador and his political staff will have been sending detailed reports back to the FCO for months on the crisis in Thailand.At the same time there will have been close consultation between embassies of friendly powers, particularly the Europeans, the Japanese, the Americans and the Australians.If you seriously think that there is much misunderstanding of the significance of the PAD, its charletan leadership, profoundly undemocratic agenda and reactionary politics....

Like it or not, but PAD nearly singlehandedly shaped the local political scene for most of the year, and for the better, not worse.

You just can't ignore it, they are far from marginalised.

If demanding Thaksin's extradition gains widespread support in the society and PAD spearheads it, there will be a lot of explaining to do on the part of Brits. No one in the West liked them when they covered Pinochet's ass or joined Americans in Iraq adventure, now they show their colors in Thailand and the rest of SEA.

It's a question of losing credibility.

Potential scenario - Thais screw up something big, Amnesty International issues a damning report on the state of their human rights, and Thais tell the UK to shove it up theirs - as long as they harbour serial rights abuser like Thaksin on the run from criminal cases, they have no grounds to critisize Thailand. Same thing China tells them every year, soon it will be a chorus.

Basically, they can kiss good bye to Thailand's support on any humanitarian issue in the region, in the worst case scenario.

If they think the probability of that is low, i.e. the extradition demand is not very popular, they'll ignore PAD's demands altogether.

It's not about being right or wrong - they just want their asses covered.

First of all I would agree that PAD has played a major part in shaping the political agenda.To be fair there have been both good and bad aspects.The problem is the leadership.Many commentators have pointed out that recent events have marginalised PAD.Obviously this is a process and PAD clearly still has influence.The next few months will determine whether the process is accelerated, halted or even reversed.

The point you make about PAD giving leadership to a national demand for THaksin's extradition is a huge hypothesis.So far there is no evidence of national support and probably a majority that sees it as a somewhat unintelligible nuisance.Like it or not Thaksin's flight in particular took some steam out of the campaign.

As to the UK's attitude I think I have quoted before Charles de Gaulle's comment that the state is a cold monster.The UK will do what it thinks necessary to preserve its interests, as will Thailand.You have made it clear several times your distaste for the UK's hypocrisy (and weather) and you are right on both counts.On a point of detail the one humanitarian issue in the region which UK has strong views is Burma.I don't really see how Thailand can become less supportive than it is already.

[quiksilva]

(lifeisrandom @ 2008-08-19 12:20:32) *

can someone please explain the PAD to me?

obviously the government knew thaskin was doing a runner if they didnt want him to do a runner he would not have been allowed to leave. wife gets convicted and heads on vacation...

so <deleted> is PAD's role in all of this?

The question really should be, who is paying for all the expenses of these protests? (banners, food, soft drinks etc)

[Shah Jahan]

If the Thais were smart - they would detain Glitter and trade him for Thaksin

about a fair exchange imho

[cmsally]

Interesting article here:

Prachatai

It certainly could be the case that the source of funds is shifting, which is reflected in their political stance. It could be the case that a lot of funding has dried up after Thaksins departure and they have to shift accordingly if they want to carry on.

They seem to flounder when Thaksin isn't the top of the agenda, so it seems their survival depends on keeping him as the focus.

[sriracha john]

The question really should be, who is paying for all the expenses of these protests? (banners, food, soft drinks etc)

For the 20,000 or so that attended the Chonburi PAD rally a few weeks ago, they paid for all those items themselves. Each tambon that brought their own signs and banners seemed quite proud of their individual efforts. The public cash donation boxes set up to cover the non-personal items like the stage and lighting looked pretty full.

Edited August 20, 2008 by sriracha john

[hammered]

(lifeisrandom @ 2008-08-19 12:20:32) *

can someone please explain the PAD to me?

obviously the government knew thaskin was doing a runner if they didnt want him to do a runner he would not have been allowed to leave. wife gets convicted and heads on vacation...

so <deleted> is PAD's role in all of this?

The question really should be, who is paying for all the expenses of these protests? (banners, food, soft drinks etc)

If you really want to know at least in Chonburi, and a I suspect elsewhere you can find quite number of people with small businesses or salaries who donate regularly to the PAD. A lot of those who attend also make donations. As Barack Obama has found a lot of small donations are often a lot better than relying on big ones. Right now the big donations to PAD have probably dried up as the big boys are more intent on taking over at least one third of the PPP from inside. That costs big money. It is not that expensive to support a demonstation and is certainly less expensive than supporting a politcal party! One of the things that has hurt PPP is that through donations the PAD have been supplying satellite dishes up country for free. While ther may not ba a groundswell of farmers queueing to bang the drum for PAD and ASTV there has been curiosity to know, for the first time, what they have been saying, and a trip to town etc now enables this. This is why to some degree local politciians organised the provincial guards.

Persoanlly I find what the PAD says increasingly bizarre but they are well organized and are well enough supported to not need the big funders they first relied on.

[Insight]

The reason the PAD has so much support is because it's ultimate goal is a common interest shared by most Thais - clean, transparent politics.

There's clearly a group of people on this forum making big attempts to drag the PAD's name through the mud, but it does seem isolated to this forum and not the reality of the two offices in Bangkok I visit per week where support for the is still very strong.

As far as I know nobody has received a satang for appearing in a PAD protest, and I doubt they would accept it if offered. I know at least one guy who has donated however...

[gazzz]

Typical Thais they have no Balls to protest when it really matters

however they protest for the box head to be sent back from the UK !!!

How about protesting against the courts for allowing him to even leave the country !

as usual they cant blame them selves always lay the blame on the rest .

[Plus]

The point you make about PAD giving leadership to a national demand for THaksin's extradition is a huge hypothesis.So far there is no evidence of national support

At this point we have no idea how it will develop. We'll see what happens when (or if) Thailand really tries to extradite Thaksin back. If the UK doesn't play it right and nothing else is going on, PAD can use this case to drum up the issue just like they did with Preah Vihear.

There IS huge interest in Thaksins great escape, the potential for making it a national obsession is there.

On a point of detail the one humanitarian issue in the region which UK has strong views is Burma.I don't really see how Thailand can become less supportive than it is already.

True, but what if something else comes up? Say civil war breaks out in Philippines. Thailand is still very influential in ASEAN, and one of the few countries that listen to the West. They've lost Malaysian attention long time ago, Singapore is always looking after its own, you can't count on them taking a stance. Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia are nobodies, that leaves only Indonesia to talk to(as long as you don't tought East Timor issue).

Credibility is a very important thing if you want people to share your values, you can't afford to lose it.

[hammered]

I really dont see Thaksin getting his butt exradited. However, the extradition call by the PAD is inline with their anti-T philosophy. More to the point after the wanted posters coming to a toilet near you soon episode it also ensures the Thaksinistas in the PPP will continue up in arms making the deals to break a lump of PPP away a little harder. There are clear divisons between the anti-Thaksin bureaucracy who want the deal with Samak and the PAD with vestiges of bureaucratic support who want to blow the whole thing out of the water.

[cmsally]

The reason the PAD has so much support is because it's ultimate goal is a common interest shared by most Thais - clean, transparent politics.

There's clearly a group of people on this forum making big attempts to drag the PAD's name through the mud, but it does seem isolated to this forum and not the reality of the two offices in Bangkok I visit per week where support for the is still very strong.

As far as I know nobody has received a satang for appearing in a PAD protest, and I doubt they would accept it if offered. I know at least one guy who has donated however...

On the contrary , I would say there are very few people on this forum dragging their name through the mud. There are however people who think they don't have legitimacy, question their motives and would like to see their viewpoints/change in viewpoints as well as their actions explained .

Just because you question the motives and actions of a person or group doesn't mean to say you are dragging their name through the mud. In fact you have highlighted one of the major problems, which is that in Thailand questioning IS seen as mudslinging. The important issues become just a blur behind the personal vendettas fought at the front.

As the personal vendettas escalate, Thai social culture facilitates taking sides and before you know it you have a rift running through a major portion of the country.

Only when you take the culture of dependency out of the system will things get better. To do that you need education, economic development and promotion based on merit and ability rather than a system of rewards and favours.

Quite frankly I don't think that is the direction the PAD are headed.

[Plus]

If the UK refuses asylum for Thaksin that would be great already. If PAD's demo help them to make that decision, their effort was not in vain.

It would be a lot worse if the UK decides to grant him refugee status. All hel_l would break lose on Thai side.

[Bangyai]

When he repeats the lese majeste remarks made by Daranee Charnchorngsilpakul to his own supporters he is arrested but immediatley granted bail, whereas she being an anti PAD speaker and pro Taksin is denied 2 requests for bail on the grounds that her crime is serious and she might flee???

Corrected for factuality...

that "Da Torpedo" from UDD/DADD was arrested in her home... her taped message broadcast are shockingly brazen. The police want to put her in protective custody as they fear the general public would harm her following her disgraceful words.

I won't repeat what she said... but it was the worst language used I've heard that warranted the charge and it's easy to why they want to hold her in protective custody. Her words would upset every conceivable niche of Thai society from rich to poor, old to young.

She is typical of her UDD/DADD co-horts like Jakrapob (who also has the same charge), and the current government's other PTV and riot co-leaders like PPP MP Jatuporn and the Government Spokesman NUTTha and the other bloke, the TRT Party-banned executive Veera. Together these guys are running the double shows on PBS and NBT with their spewage....they are in great company with the likes of this Da Torpedo. Perhaps they can have her as a special guest on one of the Veera Propaganda Show, your political party government television show...

Still, she'll feel less discomfort in prison as there are many of her persuasion currently incarcerated in the female penal system.

Also, it's worth learning who ordered the arrest of this "anti-PAD" and "pro-Thaksin" speaker:

Samak said police would take legal action against her. "That person violated the law with her words. I ordered the police to take action against her immediately," he said.

- The Nation / July 22, 2008

Uncorrected for factuality. You are refering to her arrest I was refering to the courts response to her second application for bail. See the article in Prachathai for the 16th of August.

In all these threads regarding Taksin there seem to be two lines of thought, one pro PAD and the other who regard their activities in a suspicious light. However, I have yet to read of anybody who BELIEVES Taksin to be innocent of the charges brought against him. As we have all chosen to live in Thailand I am sure all of us have the common desire of wanting the Thai people to get a decent democratic govournment. To this end , some posters have faith that the course of democracy is moving in the right direction, albeit slowly, and are encouraged by the apparent success of the PAD in bringing at least one major villain to justice along with several small fry. The other posters merely wish to point out that this apparent ' progress ' is in fact being to a large extent orchestrated by the real powerbrokers in Thailand...the military. Only a few weeks ago , a journalist for the newspaper Matichon, Athiwat Chaiyanurat, was shot dead in his home, most likely for articles he wrote concerning the activities of local politicians.So far as I am able to discover, the politicians in question have not offered to help the police in this case. And yet with Taksin, the public are given access to the court proceedings and a general ' open season ' has been declared for any journalist to print anything at all providing it is anti Taksin. What a contrast it seems. One man shot for trying to print the truth, a whole gaggle of others given unusual liberty to speak as freely as they wish ? It is apparently small things like this that in my opinion damage the credibility of the PAD. They surely would never have come so far without the tacit approval and conivance of the military. In the past, one or two politicians have tried to make it legal for the military to be tried in the civil courts. They did not get far. I personaly would like to see all corrupt officials brought to justice. Is there anybody who wouldn't.

What I take exception to is somebody behind the scenes pointing the finger at who is and is not fair game. Whats the point of everyone patting themselves on the back saying ' yes, we showed Taksin who's boss ' while the finger pointers still go quietly about their business of maintaining their own interests. If the PAD are so interested in bringing guilty parties to justice why don't they have a go at General Suchinda for ordering police to open fire at democracy demonstrators. But that was long ago wasn't it....why bring that up again unless perchance it was your son or daughter who was shot.

[sriracha john]

You are refering to her arrest I was refering to the courts response to her second application for bail. See the article in Prachathai for the 16th of August.

Could you please post that?

[Meerkat]

The reason the PAD has so much support is because it's ultimate goal is a common interest shared by most Thais - clean, transparent politics.

Not really sure how you can say that. The PAD's publicly stated ultimate goal is for a very limited system of "democracy" with most MPs being selected rather than elected. Selection can in no way be described as leading to clean and transparent politics - precisely the opposite. Sondhi has also implied that the people outside of the middle classes are too ignorant to be given the vote - a rollback to feudal times.

They also want any new government to be ultimately answerable to the military, so even that thin shroud of democracy they envisage would effectively be under some sort of unelected military rule.

You think most Thais really want that? You think most PAD supporters even really want that? I've said before that I don't believe many of the demonstrators actually realise what they're demonstrating for. The PAD had a worthy goal of eliminating corruption from politics, but even then it seems to be a form of selective justice only against Sondhi's political foes. I haven't read about them clamouring against the Democratic MPs who may have been in contravention of shareholding laws for instance.

And don't forget as well that the PAD has urged the police and military to overthrow this government. That to me is sedition, a crime against the state in most mature democracies and only a short step away from treason (which incidently IMO is what the coup leaders should have been prosecuted for instead of being allowed to rewrite the law ex post facto to excuse themselves.)

There's clearly a group of people on this forum making big attempts to drag the PAD's name through the mud, but it does seem isolated to this forum and not the reality of the two offices in Bangkok I visit per week where support for the is still very strong.

PAD's support will always be stronger in the offices of BKK and other urban centres because their political base lies in the middle classes. Were you to visit farms in the rural north you'd get a completely opposite view I'd surmise. Were there to be a nationwide election tomorrow with only two groups on the ticket; PAD and TRT, my money wouldn't be on Sondhi's lot to win. Of course I doubt the PAD will set up another political party though as they would then come under increased oversight - it's much easier just to project their case under their rights to free speech, and it also gives them a political voice that is way out of proportion to the size of its support base.

As far as I know nobody has received a satang for appearing in a PAD protest, and I doubt they would accept it if offered. I know at least one guy who has donated however...

I've read that the "guards" are paid and perhaps some of the overnighters. Given the comparative wealth of the PAD's supporters though, I'd certainly guess that any PPP groups would be more likely to pay their supporters than the PAD would.

[hammered]

The reason the PAD has so much support is because it's ultimate goal is a common interest shared by most Thais - clean, transparent politics.

There's clearly a group of people on this forum making big attempts to drag the PAD's name through the mud, but it does seem isolated to this forum and not the reality of the two offices in Bangkok I visit per week where support for the is still very strong.

As far as I know nobody has received a satang for appearing in a PAD protest, and I doubt they would accept it if offered. I know at least one guy who has donated however...

On the contrary , I would say there are very few people on this forum dragging their name through the mud. There are however people who think they don't have legitimacy, question their motives and would like to see their viewpoints/change in viewpoints as well as their actions explained .

Just because you question the motives and actions of a person or group doesn't mean to say you are dragging their name through the mud. In fact you have highlighted one of the major problems, which is that in Thailand questioning IS seen as mudslinging. The important issues become just a blur behind the personal vendettas fought at the front.

As the personal vendettas escalate, Thai social culture facilitates taking sides and before you know it you have a rift running through a major portion of the country.

Only when you take the culture of dependency out of the system will things get better. To do that you need education, economic development and promotion based on merit and ability rather than a system of rewards and favours.

Quite frankly I don't think that is the direction the PAD are headed.

Personally I agree with your assessment of what is needed although I think the line " and neither are the PPP" should be added to your last sentence for even handedness and accuracy.

[Insight]

The reason the PAD has so much support is because it's ultimate goal is a common interest shared by most Thais - clean, transparent politics.

There's clearly a group of people on this forum making big attempts to drag the PAD's name through the mud, but it does seem isolated to this forum and not the reality of the two offices in Bangkok I visit per week where support for the is still very strong.

As far as I know nobody has received a satang for appearing in a PAD protest, and I doubt they would accept it if offered. I know at least one guy who has donated however...

On the contrary , I would say there are very few people on this forum dragging their name through the mud. There are however people who think they don't have legitimacy, question their motives and would like to see their viewpoints/change in viewpoints as well as their actions explained .

Just because you question the motives and actions of a person or group doesn't mean to say you are dragging their name through the mud. In fact you have highlighted one of the major problems, which is that in Thailand questioning IS seen as mudslinging. The important issues become just a blur behind the personal vendettas fought at the front.

As the personal vendettas escalate, Thai social culture facilitates taking sides and before you know it you have a rift running through a major portion of the country.

Only when you take the culture of dependency out of the system will things get better. To do that you need education, economic development and promotion based on merit and ability rather than a system of rewards and favours.

Quite frankly I don't think that is the direction the PAD are headed.

Personally I agree with your assessment of what is needed although I think the line " and neither are the PPP" should be added to your last sentence for even handedness and accuracy.

I don't. Well, not completely. Highlighted the sentence in question - "rather than a system of rewards and favours" seems to imply that the PAD (or at least its leaders) will be expecting something in return once the campaign comes to an end?

For a system of "education, economic development and promotion based on merit and ability", surely that's the political change the PAD and all its supporters are ultimately are campaigning for?

Perhaps I've misunderstood...

[Plus]

And yet with Taksin, the public are given access to the court proceedings and a general ' open season ' has been declared for any journalist to print anything at all providing it is anti Taksin. What a contrast it seems. One man shot for trying to print the truth, a whole gaggle of others given unusual liberty to speak as freely as they wish ?

You make it seem like that journalist was shot for printing pro-Thaksin articles.

As for politicians not doing their jobs - what a surprise! Perhaps that's the reason some people look up to the military, not democratically elected politicians.

>>>>

Meerkat, the idea of MPs being selected doesn't mean that some general will pick anyone he likes.

One body I, personally, want to see selected according to some preset rules is the government. There should be a clear and merit based selection process for positions responsible for managing making or breaking this country. Under current system no one knows who's going to be in charge of anything and how people get to be where they are, and who is really in control.

Also, under current system, it's not clear why do we need the parlament at all. What do those MPs do? What did they expect? It seems they thought they'd all be in the government giving out fat contracts, no one is interested in any legislative work.

What's so good about having elections if they are meaningless and cannot produce a working parlament? Junta selected NLA was far more productive and efficient. They were selecting people based on their experience and ambitions. Very few of the current MPs would even want to be there, let alone qualify.

[samtam]

Thaksin has not even been proved guilty (Yet), and more to the point Thailand has not requested extradition (Yet?). Perhaps if they waited for those two things too occur then they would have more weight behind their protests.

Yes, you and others are right. Thaksin has not been proven guilty. His wife has. However, both of them have failed to appear in court, and I think the wife more than once, (because of "pressing engagements" abroad). Finally the Supreme Court has done what any other Supreme Court, (or court) should do and that is issue an arrest warrant for contempt, and for skipping bail. In no other country is this not considered a serious issue, whoever you are. The current baloney from T's sister and the 100+ PPP MPs asking Samak to "give respect" to Thaksin and investigate why an arrest warrant was published is laughable. <deleted>? Respect is a two way street. They have played around with all these investigations and charges with utter contempt for the system, and they are now understanding that the Supreme Court in Thailand is not something that can be ignored or bought off. This concept that you ought to have respect because of who you were, despite the things you have done just beggars belief. These people, (and no one) should be above the law. Same old story with the Marcoses, the Suhartos, blah blah blah. Do people in these countries have no self-respect? How ironic that the man who enlightened the masses about their democratic rights and then used their votes to win successive elections can't see that his version of democracy means that in the normal sense, he's above it all. It's all the same old c**p.

[chuang]

About 10,000 people demonstrate in front of British Embassy

The protesters called on the British government not to grant a political asylum to former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

-- The Nation 2008-08-19

LATEST.....If Sondhi and Co do not get what they want, they are going to demand that all countries boycott the 2012 London Olympiad.....

[cmsally]

The reason the PAD has so much support is because it's ultimate goal is a common interest shared by most Thais - clean, transparent politics.

There's clearly a group of people on this forum making big attempts to drag the PAD's name through the mud, but it does seem isolated to this forum and not the reality of the two offices in Bangkok I visit per week where support for the is still very strong.

As far as I know nobody has received a satang for appearing in a PAD protest, and I doubt they would accept it if offered. I know at least one guy who has donated however...

On the contrary , I would say there are very few people on this forum dragging their name through the mud. There are however people who think they don't have legitimacy, question their motives and would like to see their viewpoints/change in viewpoints as well as their actions explained .

Just because you question the motives and actions of a person or group doesn't mean to say you are dragging their name through the mud. In fact you have highlighted one of the major problems, which is that in Thailand questioning IS seen as mudslinging. The important issues become just a blur behind the personal vendettas fought at the front.

As the personal vendettas escalate, Thai social culture facilitates taking sides and before you know it you have a rift running through a major portion of the country.

Only when you take the culture of dependency out of the system will things get better. To do that you need education, economic development and promotion based on merit and ability rather than a system of rewards and favours.

Quite frankly I don't think that is the direction the PAD are headed.

Personally I agree with your assessment of what is needed although I think the line " and neither are the PPP" should be added to your last sentence for even handedness and accuracy.

Quite correct, unfortunately nobody is headed in the right direction.

In reply to the PAD doing all this for the "good of the country" and to produce squeaky clean politics. I'm afraid that with all the main characters being so inextricably linked over the past 20-30 yrs , I simply can't swallow this possibility.

Chamlong is after all the one that helped hoist Thaksin onto his political path. Sonthi L. was his ex business partner.

Both Samak and Chamlong have very strong military connections and perhaps this is where the stalemate is being fought out with various sideshows in play. On the one hand we have the point of view that the PAD is now defunct because of Thaksins departure and on the other, the only way to achieve influence is through the existence of PAD if your ball isn't in the other court. Maybe we find with a political shakeup some sort of balance can be achieved with a split in the PPP party and then it will be business as usual , without having to play it out on the streets of Bangkok. Who knows, just a guess.

[hammered]

The reason the PAD has so much support is because it's ultimate goal is a common interest shared by most Thais - clean, transparent politics.

There's clearly a group of people on this forum making big attempts to drag the PAD's name through the mud, but it does seem isolated to this forum and not the reality of the two offices in Bangkok I visit per week where support for the is still very strong.

As far as I know nobody has received a satang for appearing in a PAD protest, and I doubt they would accept it if offered. I know at least one guy who has donated however...

On the contrary , I would say there are very few people on this forum dragging their name through the mud. There are however people who think they don't have legitimacy, question their motives and would like to see their viewpoints/change in viewpoints as well as their actions explained .

Just because you question the motives and actions of a person or group doesn't mean to say you are dragging their name through the mud. In fact you have highlighted one of the major problems, which is that in Thailand questioning IS seen as mudslinging. The important issues become just a blur behind the personal vendettas fought at the front.

As the personal vendettas escalate, Thai social culture facilitates taking sides and before you know it you have a rift running through a major portion of the country.

Only when you take the culture of dependency out of the system will things get better. To do that you need education, economic development and promotion based on merit and ability rather than a system of rewards and favours.

Quite frankly I don't think that is the direction the PAD are headed.

Personally I agree with your assessment of what is needed although I think the line " and neither are the PPP" should be added to your last sentence for even handedness and accuracy.

I don't. Well, not completely. Highlighted the sentence in question - "rather than a system of rewards and favours" seems to imply that the PAD (or at least its leaders) will be expecting something in return once the campaign comes to an end?

For a system of "education, economic development and promotion based on merit and ability", surely that's the political change the PAD and all its supporters are ultimately are campaigning for?

Perhaps I've misunderstood...

I actually read the comment to refer to the politcal/social system of Thailand in general. I may be wrong.

[cmsally]

To do that you need education, economic development and promotion based on merit and ability rather than a system of rewards and favours.

I am referring to what the country needs as a whole and how the system works as a whole.

Practically the whole system works on rewards and favours.

However I am sure the PAD are not immune from this, as they wouldn't be allowed to block the streets of BKK , if they were.

[hammered]

When he repeats the lese majeste remarks made by Daranee Charnchorngsilpakul to his own supporters he is arrested but immediatley granted bail, whereas she being an anti PAD speaker and pro Taksin is denied 2 requests for bail on the grounds that her crime is serious and she might flee???

Corrected for factuality...

that "Da Torpedo" from UDD/DADD was arrested in her home... her taped message broadcast are shockingly brazen. The police want to put her in protective custody as they fear the general public would harm her following her disgraceful words.

I won't repeat what she said... but it was the worst language used I've heard that warranted the charge and it's easy to why they want to hold her in protective custody. Her words would upset every conceivable niche of Thai society from rich to poor, old to young.

She is typical of her UDD/DADD co-horts like Jakrapob (who also has the same charge), and the current government's other PTV and riot co-leaders like PPP MP Jatuporn and the Government Spokesman NUTTha and the other bloke, the TRT Party-banned executive Veera. Together these guys are running the double shows on PBS and NBT with their spewage....they are in great company with the likes of this Da Torpedo. Perhaps they can have her as a special guest on one of the Veera Propaganda Show, your political party government television show...

Still, she'll feel less discomfort in prison as there are many of her persuasion currently incarcerated in the female penal system.

Also, it's worth learning who ordered the arrest of this "anti-PAD" and "pro-Thaksin" speaker:

Samak said police would take legal action against her. "That person violated the law with her words. I ordered the police to take action against her immediately," he said.

- The Nation / July 22, 2008

Uncorrected for factuality. You are refering to her arrest I was refering to the courts response to her second application for bail. See the article in Prachathai for the 16th of August.

In all these threads regarding Taksin there seem to be two lines of thought, one pro PAD and the other who regard their activities in a suspicious light. However, I have yet to read of anybody who BELIEVES Taksin to be innocent of the charges brought against him. As we have all chosen to live in Thailand I am sure all of us have the common desire of wanting the Thai people to get a decent democratic govournment. To this end , some posters have faith that the course of democracy is moving in the right direction, albeit slowly, and are encouraged by the apparent success of the PAD in bringing at least one major villain to justice along with several small fry. The other posters merely wish to point out that this apparent ' progress ' is in fact being to a large extent orchestrated by the real powerbrokers in Thailand...the military. Only a few weeks ago , a journalist for the newspaper Matichon, Athiwat Chaiyanurat, was shot dead in his home, most likely for articles he wrote concerning the activities of local politicians.So far as I am able to discover, the politicians in question have not offered to help the police in this case. And yet with Taksin, the public are given access to the court proceedings and a general ' open season ' has been declared for any journalist to print anything at all providing it is anti Taksin. What a contrast it seems. One man shot for trying to print the truth, a whole gaggle of others given unusual liberty to speak as freely as they wish ? It is apparently small things like this that in my opinion damage the credibility of the PAD. They surely would never have come so far without the tacit approval and conivance of the military. In the past, one or two politicians have tried to make it legal for the military to be tried in the civil courts. They did not get far. I personaly would like to see all corrupt officials brought to justice. Is there anybody who wouldn't.

What I take exception to is somebody behind the scenes pointing the finger at who is and is not fair game. Whats the point of everyone patting themselves on the back saying ' yes, we showed Taksin who's boss ' while the finger pointers still go quietly about their business of maintaining their own interests. If the PAD are so interested in bringing guilty parties to justice why don't they have a go at General Suchinda for ordering police to open fire at democracy demonstrators. But that was long ago wasn't it....why bring that up again unless perchance it was your son or daughter who was shot.

It would be nice to see Thaksin charged for the drug war victims, Suchinda for the 1992 massacre and Samak for incitement in 1976. It is unlikely to happen as most of these events are not even open to real discussion. However, if any of them go down for something else I wont be complaining.

[Groongthep]

I think there is an interesting phenomenon happening in Thailand right now that I have never seen before anywhere else in the world and I believe it is confusing many casual observers as to what is really going on. To the average western observer the PAD demonstrators appear to be very similar to liberal protest groups which are seen around the world protesting different events such as the Iraq War, the WTO, the G-7, or in support of issues such as environmental causes, AIDS relief, and efforts to stop the atrocities in Darfur. They sing folk songs, talk about unity and often look like the hippies of generations past. I think because of their appearance many outsiders have come to believe that the PAD is a righteous group demanding democracy and are advocates for the poor and lower classes. What they are looking at however is deceiving. The PAD is essentially an elitist group which not only does not give a dam_n about the poor in Isaan but supports an elitist and royalist system of government harkening back to the Nation, Religion, and Monarchy days of General Sarit. Their leader Sondhi has more or less publicly said his main objective is revenge against Taksin. He uses Taksin's corruption as an excuse but I believe his main objective is to neutralize the threat Taksin and now the PPP have made to the old order of things where the military, the permanent bureaucracy and the traditional elite ran the show. They don't want democracy. Sondhi has said that he believes the rural poor are too stupid to govern themselves and implies that only the middle and upper classes have the ability and even the right to run the country. Yes, it is true that TRT and now the PPP are corrupt but so were just about every other government before them and Sondhi and the PAD have put forth no platform or proposals to deal with corruption if their faction was to take power. It is all about power and has nothing to do with "a common interest shared by most Thais - clean, transparent politics" as another poster has said. The PAD has disguised a group of right wing lackeys dressed up in the clothing of progressives in an attempt to influence the press, as well as domestic and international opinion in their favor. By the responses of some on this forum I think they have succeeded in pulling the wool over the eyes of more than just a few.