Ignored By Thais At Work

[toptuan]

The problem I have is not their eagerness to be friendly etc. I get invited all the time. But once there, no amount of trying to kick-start a conversation in English, with people who speak good English, works. Even my wife naturally falls into speaking Thai. My Thai is not good enough to follow a fast conversation.

The issue is about English, not about friendliness.

No, the issue is social ignorance about how foreigners feel in a room full of people not speaking an understandable language. It's a glaring example of how Thailand, despite it's tourism industry, is still a socially and culturally isolated third-world country. The opposite of cosmopolitan. Xenophobia runs deeper than most foreigners realize.

I work with 20 Ph.D's and Master-graduated Thai professors. All their degrees are in English. However, I experience exactly the same strange behavior as the OP. This group is ALL FULLY FLUENT in English!

For six years, I have sat in a lunchroom full of colleagues and no one attempts to include me in the conversation, although I am perceived of as being a "friendly farang." What's worse, ALL the seminars, teachers meetings, socials, etc. are in 100% Thai, and no one has ever made an effort to include me in the "flow." I have to make the effort, and it lasts for about 3 minutes, and then it's back to 100% Thai. This has happened from day one when I didn't know diddly-squat about the Thai language. Now I am semi-fluent and can follow the general flow, but I still consider their behavior quite ignorantly rude.

Now, we have a half-dozen native English speakers, most of whom speak very little Thai because they haven't been here long. No change in the Thais behavior--the rudeness persists, despite 5-6 people sitting in a seminar, teacher's meeting, lunchroom, etc. who have no idea what's going on.

It's a rare Thai person who comes along to make sure you are "included" in the flow. I've had two or three like that in my years in Thailand. But believe me, they are few and far between! (One was an bi-lingual farmer--now THAT'S a rare one--who coached me through every step of an Isaan wedding I was attending. Bless his heart. I felt such an integral part of the event and learned so much!).

As a result of this general attitude of Thais, I make a big deal about teaching my Thai students social etiquette when in the company of people who don't speak your language.

Edited August 25, 2008 by toptuan

[PeaceBlondie]

Thanks to steveo for saying "...The list of Peaceblondie is fascinating, because, yes, that is exactly what people talked about in the states ...." Of course, I was joking in part, but I lunched with educated non-boring American accountants and lawyers who were never boring. Sometimes they could discuss 48 subjects. However, upon my return to those old lunch buddies now for long dinners, in fact they are wrapped up in their lives there. They do not care that the big Wat outside Siam Reap reminded me of Palenque, in the jungle of Mexico. The Zapatista struggle is as meaningless to them as the Shinawatra circus. Thais at lunch and even for late dinner talk about whatever interests them, and they love to chatter on and on, speaking Thai, of course.

Speaking any language that you are not fully fluent in is exhausting, and I never expect Thais do do it for long.

[myauq]

As a result of this general attitude of Thais, I make a big deal about teaching my Thai students social etiquette when in the company of people who don't speak your language.

toptuan

good to hear you're teaching these skills. they are very valuable, and evident in many other societies in the world.

i had an interview for another job with a foreign company last week. the boss asked why i was working for a thai company in the first place. it made me laugh. at first i didn't want to say anything 'complainy' about the social ineptitude, but he made me feel at ease, so i told him.

he is not thai, nor farang, but normal, socially well adjusted.

[myauq]

it's almost lunch time...

earlier today i was interested in asking what they talked about, as a way of 'breaking the ice', but on second thoughts i'm starting to think this may cause some embarrassment.

i will stay in my office a bit longer than usual today, and see if they go without me. if they do i will just eat somewhere else, and pretend that we missed each other.

time to read some more TVF threads

[kiakaha]

bring some super effeminate, totally uber gay, girly cakes ,sweets and lollies to work, then you'll be everyones best friend.

failing that, a photo of "your" new born luk kreung baby(just cut one out of a magazine)

failing that, a new hello kitty cushion for you to sleep on at your desk.

you just have to get on their level dude

[p_brownstone]

Thais are reluctant, even shy, to speak English to each other - they feel it's pretentious and "showing off".

If one of them starts a conversation with you in English, all other contributors to the conversation will be obliged to speak English too, even when they address each other on the subject.

Imagine for a moment how you would feel if there was another Farang present but you had to speak to him in Thai?

Patrick

[think_too_mut]

Interesting thread. I am just back from lunch with my Japanese colleague. Over last 5 years, I probably had more than 1000 lunches with them, more than I have had with my family.

As I am the only foreigner in office, it's usually more than 1 Japanese person. English is regularly used, however, quite often, they would chat away in Japanese but before long (a minute or 2) one of them would pause their conversation and tell me in English what is being talked about.

Even more often I would guess myself and ask in English, they happily switch from Japanese and it continues. Some of them are fluent in English, others are OK if it is a fixed content (a manual or email) that requires no speaking.

As for lunch invitations, they may overlook one of themselves (if someone is absent at that moment or on a call) but they always ensure I am invited. Even if I am not at my desk they would call my mobile and tell me where they are going.

And before someone says Thais are closed circuit society, remember No.1 on that throne is usually reserved for the Japanese.

[myauq]

bring some super effeminate, totally uber gay, girly cakes ,sweets and lollies to work, then you'll be everyones best friend.

failing that, a photo of "your" new born luk kreung baby(just cut one out of a magazine)

failing that, a new hello kitty cushion for you to sleep on at your desk.

you just have to get on their level dude

i've gotta work on that too then, so how's this for an ice-breaker...

'where do you go for a sex change ka..?'

[myauq]

Thais are reluctant, even shy, to speak English to each other - they feel it's pretentious and "showing off".

If one of them starts a conversation with you in English, all other contributors to the conversation will be obliged to speak English too, even when they address each other on the subject.

Imagine for a moment how you would feel if there was another Farang present but you had to speak to him in Thai?

Patrick

interesting, but like i say i don't think language is the problem.

they all have very good english skills, and are more than capable of filling-us-in with the goss every now and again. selective interpretation is more polite, any interpretation, even if it's like just once a week, that will be better than just ignoring us.

anyway, they've all gone now. the office is quiet.

it might be safe to make my way out, alone....

[Scott]

I've been around for about 20 years and my experience is about the same as the OP--there are exceptions, of course. First, Thai's seem to feel (as most people do) most comfortable speaking in their own language. I can understand a bit, but my speaking is absolutely atrocious, so I don't. They also don't seem to think there is anything wrong with someone sitting silently--remember not being noticed is not a bad thing here.

Please remember it's not meant to be impolite, it's just the way things are. One on one they may be quite different and that's what I would do as far as having lunch with any of them, if it's conversation that you want. Also, I usually feel free to interupt the conversation to ask something--like 'what's in this soup?' or something of that nature. There conversations are usually pretty light and a lot centers around food.

I have actually gotten to the point where I can have a perfectly wonderful time sitting with a group of Thai friends, understanding about 10% of what is said and engrossed in my own little world, to the point where when someone speaks to me in English, I don't even here it! Just smile occasionally, say 'aroi mak' and talk to your farang co-worker.

Best of luck to you.

[Wrong Turn]

I suggest that you not let it bother you, do not let it affect your relationships with your coworkers, and just get used to that gap in communication while working on your Thai language.

Great advice here.

This is work. It's a professional situation. Yes, it's be nice to communicate more as you'd like to, but I wouldn't let it bother you.

[jitagon]

I've been working at this company for about six months, and there are two of us farang here.

Every day our Thai colleagues go for lunch, asking us to join them. Of course, that's nice. Sometimes we eat at the office cafeteria, and other times we go outside to shops or restaurants around the place. Each time we *always* sit in the same group. I found it strange at first, but now I can see they are just more comfortable socialising with those of the same work 'status'.

Anyway, on this particular table there are about 5-8 of us at any particular time. What I find completely strange is that none of these people - my colleagues that is - have made an attempt to talk to us farangs. They just chatter away in Thai. This has been going on for like 6 months now!

I wouldn't be so offended if I knew that they couldn't speak English, but I know they can. In fact, half of them have even been university educated in the West (not that that necessarily means they have fluent English skills), but I have talked to them enough to know that they do speak very good English.

Now I speak another language besides English. When I'm speaking that language, and my English-speaking friends are around, I will do my best to translate back and forth. But I will never ignore a guest, a new person or a friend by choosing not to speak their language.

It doesn't seem to bother the other farang, but on occassion we to talk to each other to break the boredom. On occassion I have thought about going somewhere else for lunch, but I'm sure they will be offended no-end by that.

Is this rude or just another Thai cultural *cough* idiosyncracy I will have to get used to?

I am thinking of breaking the silence today, and asking them what they talk about everyday....

I don't know what you're on about. I once spent the weekend with a Dutch friend who had been living in the UK for over twenty years, and the whole weekend not one of them spoke English, even though they're all fluent. One of the longest weekends of my life.

Edited August 25, 2008 by jitagon

[jitagon]

I've been working at this company for about six months, and there are two of us farang here.

Every day our Thai colleagues go for lunch, asking us to join them. Of course, that's nice. Sometimes we eat at the office cafeteria, and other times we go outside to shops or restaurants around the place. Each time we *always* sit in the same group. I found it strange at first, but now I can see they are just more comfortable socialising with those of the same work 'status'.

Anyway, on this particular table there are about 5-8 of us at any particular time. What I find completely strange is that none of these people - my colleagues that is - have made an attempt to talk to us farangs. They just chatter away in Thai. This has been going on for like 6 months now!

I wouldn't be so offended if I knew that they couldn't speak English, but I know they can. In fact, half of them have even been university educated in the West (not that that necessarily means they have fluent English skills), but I have talked to them enough to know that they do speak very good English.

Now I speak another language besides English. When I'm speaking that language, and my English-speaking friends are around, I will do my best to translate back and forth. But I will never ignore a guest, a new person or a friend by choosing not to speak their language.

It doesn't seem to bother the other farang, but on occassion we to talk to each other to break the boredom. On occassion I have thought about going somewhere else for lunch, but I'm sure they will be offended no-end by that.

Is this rude or just another Thai cultural *cough* idiosyncracy I will have to get used to?

I am thinking of breaking the silence today, and asking them what they talk about everyday....

I don't know what you're on about. I once spent the weekend with a Dutch friend who had been living in the UK for over twenty years, and the whole weekend not one of them spoke English, even though they're all fluent. One of the longest weekends of my life.

[madjbs]

Why should a largish group of people all speak English in their own country, just because of you? It's your problem, you should speak Thai, not the other way around.

[Tod Daniels]

I don't understand why you are upset. They ask you to lunch every day, so that means that they care. As far as not speaking English with you goes, they can be quite shy about that. They might be worried that their English is not good enough, or that they don't want to seem like show-offs.

Do not be confused by the 'wanna-b-thai' post I quoted.

The thais you work with DO NOT ask you to eat with them because they care about you one iota. They ask you because they are brainwashed by their alleged "culture" whic was crammed down their throats for generations. They are polite in interactions to a fault, and it is NOT out of any heartfelt courtesy on their part. It is much more reflexive thing than a conscious one, of that I am certain.

As far as the part that thais can be "shy" to speak english, that's about the understatement of the year. I have rarely met a people who exhibited so much reticence in speaking english than the ever smiling, yet diminutive inhabitants here. It certainly isn't because they "don't want to show off", as even the 'western educated' thais I've spoken with can barely string 5 words together to make a semi-cohesive sentence in english. They don't want to speak incorrectly and have a possible perceived loss of "face". Perception is ALL that matters to thais.

Thais are also very cliquish in their eating circles at the workplace. They will eat with the same people day after day, not because they are more comfortable with that group, but because all the brainwashing pawned off as culture about "who is superior, who is subordinate, has been hashed out eons ago. Adding new people to the mix forces them to reassess their totally inflexible and ultra regimented system of superior/subordinate.

Take the thais you work with, with a grain of salt, again, all they are is work associates, don't sweat it. These people will chatter on in their language oblivious to the foreigners present, without the slightest regard of your understanding or comprehension. It's not that they are intentionally rude, but they are most certainly a myopic lot for the most part.

To the O/P's last comment about having the thais be offended if he eats somewhere else, who cares. These are people you work with, certainly NOT your friends. If they had the slightest bit of intention to make you more than a work associate they'd have 'warmed' up to you by now.

IF they invite you to eat again, decline and eat where you want, with whom ever you want.

*edited for spelling*

Edited August 25, 2008 by tod-daniels

[madjbs]

As usual, more complete bigoted rubbish from toddy.....

[onethailand]

Lunch is THEIR time, they are already being nice by inviting you. There is no element of rudeness, they probably believe that if you wanted to speak with them, then you should do so in Thai (which obviously I agree with) and if you want to speak english, well you have your friend there.

steve is exactly right. Lunch time is generally a social occasion for Thais and they will automatically invite you along. This is the time to catch up on all the gossip, it's generally not a time to talk shop unless of course it's a business lunch. So they will naturally speak Thai - unless you are more interesting and they are eager to talk to you and you don't speak Thai.

BTW, it's not just the Thais that do this - so do the Chinese - out of courtesy they will automatically invite you, but at the table in most cases the language will be Chinese.

Japanese do it too, as TTM said - but they have a much higher sense of humility and responsibility so they will apologize and then explain what was being talked about.

The worst are the Israelis. They will chatter away in Hebrew at any time, whether during lunch, or business meetings, even though they know you are there, and they will make no attempt to apologize or explain unless it is something they absolutely need you to understand.

In short, if you want them to talk to you in English, you need to become the "life of the lunch".

[Tod Daniels]

As usual, more complete bigoted rubbish from toddy.....

I resemble that remark. ..

**WARNING** My version of reality MAY NOT be compatible with yours, deal with it**

[Radius]

Work and live in a country for several months: learn the language.

It's that simple.

Sure, I am helpfull to a forreigner that comes to the table if he is in my country.

But when we are talking months of staying here, I am going to assume he/she learns the language.

To put it bluntly: I expect his/her language skills to get better by the week and if I see no effort is beeing made to try and speak my language I will start to ignore.

I understand it might be difficult, I understand it takes time. But after 6 months I expect him/her to be able to follow a lot in my language. I will help when it is difficult but I will not speak his/her language for 6 months. It is my lunch break I like to relax in my lunch break, speaking another language is not relaxing.

If the forreigner chooses to be here, then the forreigner should also choose to learn the language.

btw, I am not in Thailand or Thai, this is just a general opinion.

Edited August 25, 2008 by Radius

[Cuban]

The fact you are invited and invited repeatedly is a good sign.

I would suggest that you consider that conversations about money are best avoided, you mention talking about Thais working overseas and them finding it expensive - something that you might be able to discuss in a private one on one situation, but in front of others this places the person you are talking to in a dangerous situation with regard to their 'face' status amoung their peers.

You say that the group is university educated - that should allow a number of different subjects to be discussed. Avoid politics and royality, your group might not be soap opera fans but I have watched forced myself to view one of these programmes just so that I could start a conversation in the office with a particular person.

I do find that I have to guage when to use open or closed questions to help the person that I'm talking with their ability to respond, but I work with non university educated office staff.

I have found movies to be a good topic to string a conversation along, as it allows you to talk about the one movie - then others that are like it or different actors etc. many people have DVD/VCD collections - if you can borrow or loan disks between you and the staff it acts as an on going contact to build on. (But I don't loan my DVD originals - only copies - I don't want to screw up a work relationship based on a scratched disk.)

[myauq]

ok, i did it!

i made it on my own, and how nice it was to be by myself, with the freedom not to be around awkward co-workers politely ignoring me.

i left the office about 5 mins later than everyone else today, and guess what..? no-one waited for me, or left any messages about where they were going. suprise, suprise.

a strange thing happened on my way out though. i'd just left the office when one of our bosses asked me 'where are they?' like i'd transgressed a major work rule and made a social faux par by not choosing to eat with my colleagues.

[Neeranam]

To me, it seems pretty obvious that they don't like you. Perhaps they like you to be there for lunch as it makes them look good. They are being extremely rude, you just can't see it.

Often it is due to some resentment they have about you getting more money than them for the same job.

Why worry so much about what they think, they obviously don't care about you. Next time, thanks for the invite but as you never speak to us bugger off.

[Samuian]

.............edit.........

The Thai seem not to have any concern at all whether someone feels excluded. Again, not because of rudeness, simply because it doesn't cross their mind. There is no social concern for anyone other than Thai. A result of a closed society I'd think.

If I was you, there is no way I would continue having lunch with them. It takes two to Tango.

I wish you luck in your efforts. But don't expect success.

Sign that, there are situations and people which DO make a difference, but it's the RARE exception!

Go your own ways, if they don't care, why should you care, there are plenty of foreigners around in BKK!

I feel sometimes that this comes down to some sort of inherent inferior complex, some sort of profile neurosis, so claim your'e (we foreigners) are not present, whilst ignoring the presence, is an easy and very simple way to go!

I work and "rub" here for nearly 2 decades, the best company are the simple laborers, the further it goes "up the ladder", the more likely it is that you may be made to feel inferior, not belonging to..... clear message!

And locals, educated "abroad" are bad news in generally. if it happens to meet them here "back home", home turf, nationalism, patriotism, something "we Thais", perception, we do perceive it different, we play with other rules!

Why not, up to anyone.... and up to you too!

And DON'T Care, don't woory, mak NO (negativ) comment to your boss/superior if asked again!

Look at it to meet maybe knew, people and be more open, more relaxed..... agree with Neeraram

Edited August 25, 2008 by Samuian

[gymshark]

Social faux pas my arse, they are the ones being rude, the only people I have ever encountered to be this rude in this way are the dutch, they will quite happily rabbit away in their language when working with other races. It is rude so don't sit with them again, I am sure there are plenty of Thais who will have a nice chat with you over lunch. Maybe they just don't like working with westerners? Whatever the problem it is easily sorted.

[Radius]

No they are not beeing rude.

The OP is beeing rude by not learning the language.

And now he is even avoiding them.

And you eat with them every day, and today the boss sees you without them. Offcourse he askes where they are. Perfectly normal thing to wonder about.

Edited August 25, 2008 by Radius

[fuzedcon]

While you may desire to speak of politics, religion and other matters as we do in english, over lunch these are considered to be for the most part not ideal subjects to speak of and any reference is quite careful in not arousing the ire of others; that time is over drinks later in the day ;-) Most Thais I know (and me also) are always scared to bring up politics with the majority of westerners here unless we know them well, as there is a fine chance that we will get American Democrat/Republican style O'Reilly commentary with a very very clear single viewpoint, and blinders on to consider anything else - problematic over lunch when half the table believes the exact oppposite. So....best not to discuss. At least not over lunch.

It all very much depends.

The higher you go, like everywhere, but more so here, the more careful people have to be about religious and political topics, and indeed they usually are reserved for after work meetings with people one knows better. It can be problematic, especially nowadays, to voice your views too openly, whatever they may be. The political and social divisions run very deep, and are not just lower class vs. upper class, Thaksin vs. anti-Thaksin.

The lower you go the more open the discussions become. Some topics are still very much avoided at a workplace.

But - if a farang's conversational Thai is good enough - then usually that farang is included in every conversation, and his views are listened to and wanted. That's at least my experience in 90% of social situations i have encountered, high and low. At times i have even been invited after some event for the sole reason that i have made a comment in Thai that has aroused interest, and not just because i speak Thai.

Often, many Thai related topics are easier to discuss in Thai in all nuances. While other topics many Thais with excellent command in Englich are more comfortable to discuss in English.

But like it or not - Thailand is one of these countries where a good command of the language is very important in order to be included.

[gymshark]

No they are not beeing rude.

The OP is beeing rude by not learning the language.

I agree that people living and working here should be able to convers if for no better reason than their own peace of mind, but just because they don't speak well enough yet doesn't mean they are being rude. Anyway, the co workers speak English too, they are rude or just lacking in manners.

[myauq]

No they are not beeing rude.

The OP is beeing rude by not learning the language.

if you'd read my posts you'd know that's not the case.

i am currently learning thai. in fact, before coming to work here i spent 6 months learning to speak and read thai. my interest has declined due to this kind of behaviour. i have learnt serveral other sea languages fluently, but in other countries, whether i speak the native language or not, i've never been ignored like this.

i do understand some things that they say, but as time has gone on i'm less and less interested, because when i do try to say something in thai, the subsequent response doesn't take the conversation very far.

[madjbs]

Your interest in learning Thai has declined because people don't speak English to you, great logic there

[MrHammer]

Why should a largish group of people all speak English in their own country, just because of you? It's your problem, you should speak Thai, not the other way around.

BS! I used to work in a small but international IT/Financial services firm when i was studying. This was is scandinavia which is just as much a closed society as Thailand.

And there we had several foreigners, american, irish, israeli. and everytime someone who couldnt speak the language was present, being work, lunch or socialising, everyone would speak english to include them. They even had a hard time learning the local language cause people would rather practise their english!

So this tells me that the thais in question are just rude fuc_kers, who should be ignored or slapped. The thais i studied with would generally talk among themselves in english if a forereigner was present, and be very including if in a group context. So again these workplace thais are racist idiots, or the op has bad breath or something.

Agree with others that lunch topics are and should be imo. sports, tv, interest rates, investing, crap like that