PAD Lay Siege On Government House, NBT TV Station

[scyriacus]

"No Entry" Sign to Be Posted Around Govt House

This changes the playing field... now people can't get in without directly violating a court order.

they are all in already. police should better post some "please exit" signs. i can see not much change. on the contrary both sides are coming closer and closer. samak: protesters bpai baan! protesters: samak bpai baan! why don't they go home together? problem solved! why does tax-sin not allow samak to quit? the 'unspeakable' bluntly has told samak already to resign. "extreme caution" = strong warning, "soft and gentle" = but not with you, samak (cause we all know that samak is everything but soft & gentle).

btw: violating court orders seems 'en vogue' for billionaire wannabe dictators, but not for their opponents............

[jitagon]

On NBT, Pallop confirms that if Chamlong is arrested, he will take Chamlong's place.

Ah, the true nature of the beast is beginning to show! Heaven help dear Thailand if that man ever becomes PAD's appointed Prime Minister!

first time i can agree with your choice of foe. i detest the likes of pallop. but:

1. to my knowledge the pad is not planning to build a new government and pm, just oust the incompetent incumbents.

Glad we can agree on something! As I said before, I think most people here do share a common love for this Country, and each in their own way is seeking what they feel is best for Thailand.

Sadly, the New Politics of Sondhi clearly sets out his goal of a new 70/30 appointed/elected parliament, and people like Pallop, if he's riding the triumphant wave of leading the overthrow of the Government just don't have a habit of walking away into retirement. No, you can bet your bottom dollar he'll demand the top job, and from his past record he'll not be afraid of disposing of anyone, friend or foe, who stands in his way.

I hope for the sake of all that my prophesy is wrong, I NEVER want to have to post "I told you so" in this forum.

I don't know why you come again and again with that appointed parliament which is in that way you tell it simply not true.

Really??

Bloomberg

BKK POst

Never brought up so far here is Sondhi's most interesting idea from the BK Post.

In part, the answer for the PAD lies in who controls the military. An important feature of Mr Sondhi's speech that went unreported in the press was the proposal to take the Ministry of Defence out of government control and place it under the Crown. At a time when Thailand is urgently facing the need to institutionalise its politics around public rules, the PAD is proposing to formally enhance the power of the monarchy.

It has some startling significances now, and longer term.

Postulating ideas is not the same as actually putting them into action.

Academics say many things, thoughts can make us see many possibilities.

If one pushes against a bull one must often move as if intending to move farther

than we actully intend to go. When pushing against someone who will inevitable

try and push back, sometimes it's best to push farther than we intend,

so that when it gets pushed back on it rests ABOUT where we hoped for.

PAD got rid of Thaksin and Sondhi didn't run for office,

He didn't do more than move to the sidelines,

until it became apparent what Thaksin's minions were up to for the 2nd round.

So he started pushing against seeing that the original move was being erased.

So the rhetoric of new government has escalated, as it logically would.

But where they want to end up, and how to get there as things are

'On The Ground', are two different animals. both in a state of flux

jockying for advantage with many unknowns in

a 80 years post feudal society that we can barely grasp.

PAD is pushing back hard because Thaksin's machine pushed back.

BOTH sides are playing hardball now.

Still not bothering to read your posts if you cannot grasp simple easy to read layout.

[marshbags]

Treason charges too harsh for PAD leaders: senators

By The Nation

A group of 30 senators on Thursday questioned whether police were too harsh in charging the nine leaders of the People's Alliance for Democracy for treason.

[snip]

Senator Rosana Tositrakul said 80 per cent of protesters inside Government House were women and children who participated in the rally at their free will.

Rosana called on authorities to avoid using force against peaceful protesters.

She said from her own experience as a former activist, police often exaggerated the charges filed against protesters. She said she once successful sought the judicial intervention to order police to reduce the charges.

It might be worth noting that this Senator, at least, is listed in Wikipedia as being part of the original PAD management committee. She may not be entirely without bias.

...you can also observe the many women and children...

marshbags

the presence of children buffering the protesters from the police (as was reported in this mornings Post) speaks volumes.

Try looking at the ASTV channels for a decent amount of time and you will also see that this is not, as you would seemingly indicate when quoting the B.Post .

This way you can see for yourself and get a true indication as to what is really going on / happening.

This latest quote you add is worthy of the NBT,s unprincipled reporters and can be read as mischievious to say the least for those who do not live here, and therefore will not otherwise have the benefit of the reality of the situation.

marshbags

[jitagon]

Treason charges too harsh for PAD leaders: senators

By The Nation

A group of 30 senators on Thursday questioned whether police were too harsh in charging the nine leaders of the People's Alliance for Democracy for treason.

[snip]

Senator Rosana Tositrakul said 80 per cent of protesters inside Government House were women and children who participated in the rally at their free will.

Rosana called on authorities to avoid using force against peaceful protesters.

She said from her own experience as a former activist, police often exaggerated the charges filed against protesters. She said she once successful sought the judicial intervention to order police to reduce the charges.

It might be worth noting that this Senator, at least, is listed in Wikipedia as being part of the original PAD management committee. She may not be entirely without bias.

Maybe so. But she is absolutely right!

[thaigene2]

Thailand's current debacle is glowing proof of the problems that stem from buying votes and endemic corruption. Among other things, PAD supporters appear to be saying they have no faith in the ways things get done in Thailand, and not much faith that anyone (or any group) of politicians have the basic skills needed to govern decently - as PAD haven't put forward a candidate or cabinet to replace the current bunch of crooks and bumblers in the power seats.

Not a chance. They're going for all or nothing now. That's why Sondhi finally blurted it out - no elections, just elites apponted to Government from now on and and an official oversight by the military.

It's so sad, but perhaps human nature, that the elties in Thailand simply won't face up to the fact that their neglect of the masses for so long has led to this fatal attraction to TRT/PPP. Rather than the Democrats (for example) trying to beat the PPP at their own game by developing good sound policies to improve the lives of ordinary (read poor) Thais who make up the majority of the country, they've tried to fall back on the old elite military-commercial guanxi families to save them - in other words ignore the poor and if they get too pushy then just ban democracy altogether.

It's either incredibly arrogant or incredibly simple-minded. Turn the clock bak 60 years.

Sums up the current position pretty neatly IMHO.

Except the first paragraph isn't from my post. Perhaps you added it in the top there by mistake - perhaps from someone else?

[way2muchcoffee]

For those who have not read this interview I strongly urge you to do so. Those who think he is fighting 'the people's fight' might find his enthusiastic admission of being 'the elite's defacto spokesman' interesting.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/ID27Ae01.html

I'm curious. Did you read the article? If anything the interview indicates that Sondhi sees himself as the de facto spokesman for the middle class, not the elite. Whether that is true or not may be open for debate. I suggest you re-read the entire interview.

Edited August 28, 2008 by way2muchcoffee

[Gary A]

Say what you like and think what you like. Just look up Sondhi on the Internet and I think you will have to admit that he definitely doesn't have both oars in the water. If he is successful with his overthrow, you will see Chamlong soon change coats again. Chamlong has changed coats MANY times and there is a lot of information about him on the Internet too.

Don't just spout off and spew bullshit, research the available information first. As for myself, I have to put up with my anarchist wife. When I ask her what will happen if they have another coup, she gives me a blank look. These people absolutely DON'T want a democracy.

[scyriacus]

the presence of children buffering the protesters from the police ... speaks volumes.

what volumes? speak out! you are obviously a stranger who does not have and/or does not love children. the thai people are different! they love their families and children and take them where ever they go. they would never have such a perverted thought. a much better protection against police brutality is holding a certain 'unspeakable' picture over your head and wait for the television to broadcast nationwide how the brutes have to hit this picture first before they can club your head..............

[blaze]

Treason charges too harsh for PAD leaders: senators

By The Nation

A group of 30 senators on Thursday questioned whether police were too harsh in charging the nine leaders of the People's Alliance for Democracy for treason.

[snip]

Senator Rosana Tositrakul said 80 per cent of protesters inside Government House were women and children who participated in the rally at their free will.

Rosana called on authorities to avoid using force against peaceful protesters.

She said from her own experience as a former activist, police often exaggerated the charges filed against protesters. She said she once successful sought the judicial intervention to order police to reduce the charges.

It might be worth noting that this Senator, at least, is listed in Wikipedia as being part of the original PAD management committee. She may not be entirely without bias.

...you can also observe the many women and children...

marshbags

the presence of children buffering the protesters from the police (as was reported in this mornings Post) speaks volumes.

Try looking at the ASTV channels for a decent amount of time and you will also see that this is not, as you would seemingly indicate when quoting the B.Post .

This way you can see for yourself and get a true indication as to what is really going on / happening.

This latest quote you add is worthy of the NBT,s unprincipled reporters and can be read as mischievious to say the least for those who do not live here, and therefore will not otherwise have the benefit of the reality of the situation.

marshbags

Perhaps the Post reporter would do better to watch ASTV rather than observing first hand eh? And YOU remarked on the number of children present. But his/her observation was "Women and children sat in rows at the gates to prevent police from storming the compound."

Noble.

Edited August 28, 2008 by blaze

[thaigene2]

For those who have not read this interview I strongly urge you to do so. Those who think he is fighting 'the people's fight' might find his enthusiastic admission of being 'the elite's defacto spokesman' interesting.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/ID27Ae01.html

I'm curious. Did you read the article? If anything the interview indicates that Sondhi sees himself as the de facto spokesman for the middle class, not the elite. Whether that is true or not may be open for debate. I suggest you re-read the entire interview.

OK - well I read it all.

I will hand it to Sondhi that he speaks well of himself. And I don't doubt the fact that his core base on the streets is the middle-class Chinese-Thai - most of whom think they are fighting the good fight. However, he is (self-admittedly) as Blaze pointed out, the lapdog of the elites. He was the golden opportunity they were waiting for - and I believe he is correct in saying that the elites are feudalist families who are terrified of populism and one-person-one-vote becuase Thaksin used that to modernize and rbeak down the traditional inter-family business dealings - shutting them out as Sondhi puts it. It hink he's right on.

As for his bewidlerment at why the last Coup leaders didn't clean house and create a transparent democractic movement forward - well, you know, that's pretty funny isn't it, given the military elite's history here. Anyone ever find the Saudi gems?

So he's kind of riding the fence there isn't he? Yet here he is a year later telling us all we need to abandon one-person-one-vote and install a priviledged elite appointed Government with military backing. Well there are two faces. Does he have any more?

[scyriacus]

Still not bothering to read your posts if you cannot grasp simple easy to read layout.

cool down jit. there is no tv rule about the layout. you don't know the reason and i don't care. if you don't like reading posts on tv, you are free to do something else. i like his posts but don't like pedantry. are we quits with each other?

[animatic]

I stand by my initial reaction that Samak is finished and knew he was finished from the beginning and we have simply been in the end game since 6 am Tuesday.

Coming shortly -

"Senators request Samak calls snap elections to end political dissolution."

"General A states that while he does not want to stage a coup the current government house situation cannot continue."

So there are seemingly three choices:

1 Go in with force. Ruled out of bounds.

Beating a bunch of mothers during the

Queens birthday unity celbration is not a good idea...

A non starter beside that you gotta have the Army on

board and the police and HRM and that's not happening these days

2 Samak and cabinet resign

and PPP majority cobbles together a better coalition.

Likely with a non PPP PM.

3 Samak calls for new elections. And the race is on.

In the last two PAD goes home and back into watch dog mode,

and rides the election commission like a hound from hel_l.

Either one is a viable alternative, except for Samak's political future.

So is it fall on your sword for King and Country,

or hang tight for your own aging ego.

I think it's time he tended the garden.

But keep the foreign minster.

The Cambodians will want to talk soon,

once the can tell WHO the're supposed to talk with.

[Bagwan]

Try that at the White House premises

..or maybe Downing Street 10 ?

LaoPo

Neither are the seat of Government. Sorry to be so pedantic.

[thaigene2]

As for people taking their children into an environment like that - well, they need their heads examined. Come to think of it - they've probably needed that for some time which is why some of them are there in the first place.

While many of these people are, as I said above, most likely good people with a bee-in-their-bonnet over Thaksin, et al, there are many many whakos in the crowd. I've walked through the crowd a couple of times and have also seen them during a couple of their 'marches' through downtown. There are some right nutters in there.

[Bangyai]

On NBT, Pallop confirms that if Chamlong is arrested, he will take Chamlong's place.

Ah, the true nature of the beast is beginning to show! Heaven help dear Thailand if that man ever becomes PAD's appointed Prime Minister!

first time i can agree with your choice of foe. i detest the likes of pallop. but:

1. to my knowledge the pad is not planning to build a new government and pm, just oust the incompetent incumbents.

2. what if this is just a propaganda chess move? if samak arrests chamlong he will inherit and oppose pallop instead. scary, isn't it?

and pallop will have a lot friends within the army, that is for sure not something samak will like...

Alone all the southern paramilitars and former ex-communist units....if he can only talk a few of them in violent actions than you have a full scale civil war

Please enlighten me, do you wish to see the disappearance of vote buying or full scale civil war. There is rather a big difference.

How about Samak and the other clowns just resign and get some pardons at court and we get rid of both dangers?

Politics is about win or lose, especially in this country. If one steps down you get the other, so now is time to make up your mind which you prefer.

Politics is about working for the country, doing the best for the country. Not about winning the jackpot and filling your pockets.

Democracy is about getting the best one for the job, not about which clown knows the best tricks to fool the other.

Almost correct h90. Just change one small word.

Politics should be about working for the country.........etc

Democracy should be about getting the best one for the job.....etc

Unfortunatley, in the real world this is not the case and there is no such political utopia anywhere much less in Thailand. Most people agree that the current govournment is more or less pretty rotten and yet any kind of democracy is likely to be better than a return to an exclusive oligarchy that excludes 70% of the people and gives them virtually no say in how the country is run.

If we look ahead to one year from now there may well be a new P.M. and a new party running the show and yet this is likely to be the only change we shall see in the way that the country is run. Same old new faces.Corruption is an abiding evil and yet so is its close cousin; patronage. With many of the top army brass holding executive positions in big business it is clear there will continue to be a conflict of interest that undermines any apparent progress on the political stage. Suchinda is a classic case in point being promoted to an executive position in TRUE immediatly affter his failed bloody coup. These men offer no expertise but are merely taken on for their political clout and at handsome salaries. This is seen as legitimate 'Jobs for the boys' rather than a form of corruption.

It is almost certain that a vast majority of the PAD protesters sincerley believe they are doing their patriotic duty in attempting to bring down this govournment. Unfortunatley the road to perdition is paved with good intentions and many of them have no clear idea of what will be ushered in if the PPP are shown the door. Most certainley it will not be something they expect. If the PAD were sincere in their desire to do something real and lasting for the benefit of all the Thai people they would ,as others have suggested, form a political party with a simple and clear agenda:

To root out corruption at all levels.

Put and end to military patronage and conflicts of interest.

Total freedom of the press.

Bring the military under civil jurisdiction.

This may seem like a high mountain to climb but if they could channel the support they currently have into a more far reaching objective they would surely attract the support of a majority of the Thai people. As it is , there protests are likely to result in throwing out the baby with the water and setting everything back to pre Taksin politics. The wrong direction altogether.

[thaigene2]

Try that at the White House premises

..or maybe Downing Street 10 ?

LaoPo

Neither are the seat of Government. Sorry to be so pedantic.

Despite the name, I don't think Government House is the 'seat' of Government is it? Wouldn't it be the Parliament down the road? Government House is essentially the Cabinet Offices to my understanding.

[animatic]

Still not bothering to read your posts if you cannot grasp simple easy to read layout.

Your loss.

For your information I have difficult reading the page to page minimal paragraph posts.

And because of THAT I won't risk MY precision of wording to fit your mold.

This is WAY to sensitive a subject for any mistakes....

So don't read it.

Edited August 28, 2008 by animatic

[davee58]

Still not bothering to read your posts if you cannot grasp simple easy to read layout.

Your loss.

For your information I have difficult reading the page to page minimal paragraph posts.

And because of THAT I won't risk MY precision of wording to fit your mold.

This is WAY to sensitive a subject for any mistakes....

So don't read it.

Come on guys.

The known universe is about to end.

If you don't like a particular layout style, IGNORE it and post in your favourite style / layout / colour / size.

Just post something interesting.

[blaze]

the presence of children buffering the protesters from the police ... speaks volumes.

what volumes? speak out! you are obviously a stranger who does not have and/or does not love children. the thai people are different! they love their families and children and take them where ever they go. they would never have such a perverted thought. a much better protection against police brutality is holding a certain 'unspeakable' picture over your head and wait for the television to broadcast nationwide how the brutes have to hit this picture first before they can club your head..............

Hey hey hey- slow down. I simply quoted the reporter from the Bangkok Post- probably a recent arrival in Thailand who didn't know it's quite normal here to take your kids to a situation that could easily make the fracas in Udorn look like a kids picnic.

[dotcom]

As for people taking their children into an environment like that - well, they need their heads examined.

Human shields.

[RadioCityMike]

Democracy should be about getting the best one for the job.....etc

I don't think you could ever get the best one for the job with a democratic process. Democracy is about compromise and consensus. Certainly it is the most fair process and the standard of the world.

I stand by what I said earlier that PAD should focus on the election process. Surely if they have the power to over through the government, they must have the power to improve the voting process. If the ballot were truly secret, who would care how much vote buying there was. Take money from everyone and vote however you wanted.

I believe the real opposition to the TRT/PPP is due to their LEGAL vote buying with populist politics. The other political parties will never be able to win, because they will always lose the bidding war for the vote of the masses. Thus, that is why PAD needs a military appointed government.

[blaze]

Democracy should be about getting the best one for the job.....etc

I don't think you could ever get the best one for the job with a democratic process. Democracy is about compromise and consensus. Certainly it is the most fair process and the standard of the world.

I stand by what I said earlier that PAD should focus on the election process. Surely if they have the power to over through the government, they must have the power to improve the voting process. If the ballot were truly secret, who would care how much vote buying there was. Take money from everyone and vote however you wanted.

I believe the real opposition to the TRT/PPP is due to their LEGAL vote buying with populist politics. The other political parties will never be able to win, because they will always lose the bidding war for the vote of the masses. Thus, that is why PAD needs a military appointed government.

Well said- many in Thailand (including a lot of so called 'educated' pundits) - and many very young people from the west- think that democracy is a synonym for good governance. It's not. Sometimes good governance comes from very undemocratic processes- remember - Mussolini made the trains run on time. Pinochet improved the Chilean economy at a rate it had never experienced. The Taliban reduced the opium trade dramatically.

Democracy is simpling a full sharing of the rights to determine the policies of a nation by all its citizens- and the best way so far found to do that is through the principle of majority rule- within paramaters set by the constitution. If someone doesn't accept that- then they'd do well to spurn democracy. Perhaps fascism would be more to their tastes.

[Bangyai]

Democracy should be about getting the best one for the job.....etc

I don't think you could ever get the best one for the job with a democratic process. Democracy is about compromise and consensus. Certainly it is the most fair process and the standard of the world.

I stand by what I said earlier that PAD should focus on the election process. Surely if they have the power to over through the government, they must have the power to improve the voting process. If the ballot were truly secret, who would care how much vote buying there was. Take money from everyone and vote however you wanted.

I believe the real opposition to the TRT/PPP is due to their LEGAL vote buying with populist politics. The other political parties will never be able to win, because they will always lose the bidding war for the vote of the masses. Thus, that is why PAD needs a military appointed government.

Well said- many in Thailand (including a lot of so called 'educated' pundits) - and many very young people from the west- think that democracy is a synonym for good governance. It's not. Sometimes good governance comes from very undemocratic processes- remember - Mussolini made the trains run on time. Pinochet improved the Chilean economy at a rate it had never experienced. The Taliban reduced the opium trade dramatically.

Democracy is simpling a full sharing of the rights to determine the policies of a nation by all its citizens- and the best way so far found to do that is through the principle of majority rule- within paramaters set by the constitution. If someone doesn't accept that- then they'd do well to spurn democracy. Perhaps fascism would be more to their tastes.

Hmmm...I get your point and its a valid one, but implying that the Taliban were a good govournment because they reduced the opium trade is stretching it to the outer limits of credibility......and beyond.

[Slip]

Treason charges too harsh for PAD leaders: senators

By The Nation

A group of 30 senators on Thursday questioned whether police were too harsh in charging the nine leaders of the People's Alliance for Democracy for treason.

[snip]

Senator Rosana Tositrakul said 80 per cent of protesters inside Government House were women and children who participated in the rally at their free will.

Rosana called on authorities to avoid using force against peaceful protesters.

She said from her own experience as a former activist, police often exaggerated the charges filed against protesters. She said she once successful sought the judicial intervention to order police to reduce the charges.

It might be worth noting that this Senator, at least, is listed in Wikipedia as being part of the original PAD management committee. She may not be entirely without bias.

With respect and based on highprofile exposure to the multitude of media outlets over several months, irrespective of her Wikipedia listed info, what is reported in the above article is conducive / complimentary to the peacefully inclined demonstrations and protests.

Correct: We've already seen accusations of certain high profile fugitives apparently paying people to keep their wiki 'rip roi'. JUst because it's on Wiki (off wiki, on wiki etc) doesn't make it true.

Look for yourself and see if the demonstration is anything other than peaceful.

Again correct for the most part- the NBT takeover sticks out a bit though- certainly there seems to be continued debate here about whether this was genuinely the work of the PAD. The newspaper sources quoted on this thread don't lend much credibility to the idea it was a 3rd force. Since then it has been very peaceful which leads on to your next point...

You can also observe the many women and children are indeed present, and let us add the old and very old while we are at it to add to Senator Rosanas statement, and the fact that the many weak and vunerable groups are not conductive to violence coming from their fellow PAD supporters.

This strikes me as an important idea that no-one has mentioned yet. What you're saying is Khun Rosana ia a good guy.

The paid Rogue Elements on the other hand DGAF about the human cost if trouble starts.

They proved that at Udonthani not long ago in no uncertain terms.

Again, I agree

[snipped for brevity]

marshbags

I still reckon it was worth mentioning. This senator was not a member of PAD she was a member of the management team- if Wiki is to be believed. Neither of the other two senators quoted turned up with obvious links in a search.

For myself I have no clear idea. Our fearless (ex)leader(s) do seem to be crooks and I think everyone knows the alliance is breaking the law. Where to go?

Samak has shown huge restraint (for whatever reason) so. so far so good, if all this ended tomorrow I think he'd be the short term winner.

Of course we are all just second guessing- waiting to see what happens.

[klikster]

Important to note that the PAD themselves aren't a unified body, there are plenty of factions within that don't necessarily take part in all PAD activities. I have relatives that are both PAD and the anti-matter of PAD. Some are under-employed, some are retired (both of the not well to do gov't and well to do private sector variety), some are still working (again, all different occupations, from tiny shop restaurant owner to SME owner). Like politics anywhere, there are all kinds of interests involved, it's hardly a black and white issue.

Just as an example: one particular gal I know (not a friend, just a loose aquaintence) runs the local underground lottery at the local open air market. Turnover in the range of 3-4 million Baht per drawing (bi-monthly). She is avidly pro-PAD (and regularly sponsors minivan full loads of supporters up to Bangkok from Chonburi) because of course if the PPP get their 2-3 digit lottery up and running again, it bites into sales... also, the PPP lottery inherently comes with increased police enforcement/suppression of the underground lottery.

On the converse, another fellow I am acquainted with in Bangkok is with Loxley Info. (the old ISP/IT services provider company which may as well be called Lamsam Info...ala Kasikorn Bank) and is avidly anti-PAD. His interest is the opposite of the open market lotto gal mentioned earlier because wouldn't you know it, Loxley is the concession holder to produce the machines that run the new PPP lottery. And who do you think had first 'dibs' in signing up for these lotto scanning/selling machines? Loxley insiders, this particular gentleman included, who purchased 4 of them.... priceless if placed in key locations (say if you own a few prime location 7-11 franchises... ala lotto sales in the west). Worthless though if the PPP is out.

And this is just one example of one facet of the whole political struggle going on. And as you can see, neither side (as far as these two individuals concerned) could give two bits as to what the outcome is in terms of the "greater good of the poor/keeping the poor down" "Thaksin being brought to justice/brining Thaksin back to power" or the "fight for democracy."

Thanks for the insight .. probably the best post from you that I have ever read.

[Insight]

The more I think about it, the more I'm coming to the opinion that the initial PAD protests on Tuesday were "poisoned" somehow. Nothing we've seen from the PAD before and nothing we've seen from the PAD over the past two days (not including Tuesday obviously) seems to match the behavior of people that morning.

I just wish the leaders would make an official statement on their opinions of events. Maybe now is not the time...

[Spee]

If the PAD were sincere in their desire to do something real and lasting for the benefit of all the Thai people they would ,as others have suggested, form a political party with a simple and clear agenda:

.......

Bring the military under civil jurisdiction.

It all starts here, with that very simple yet complicated statement.

When people have to lives their lives in fear of retribution or action by their own military against them, this is a serious problem. When the leader of a nation's military does not report to a higher civilian authority, this is a more serious problem.

As long as this serious problem exists, the country will never have political stability. Without political stability, there will never be economic stablity, reduction in corruption and increased personal freedom.

Unfortunately, I fear the chances of this happening in my lifetime are near to nil.

[animatic]

Let's see:

Thaksin is breaking the law and on the run

while trying to rewrite the laws to exempt himself and cronies

The PAD is breaking the law by protesting this

and ignoring Thaksin's paid proxies to do it.

Courts are directly intepreting the laws correctly,

but can't do the enforcement.

Different factions of the enforcement arm

AKA Police

are either doing nothing but wait, or actively suborning evidence

to support one side or the other.

While WAITING to see which way it shakes out.

The army is scaring the pants off all of them as a wild card.

Samak thinks he has made a deal handing them some good cards to help him

But PAD seems to have a counter-delt a card to play that is scarier.

It's a house of cards for sure...

Patronage. Not good. OK, ecept here we are only

a generation or three from actual fuedal social constructs.

atronage is so ingrained in everything from the wai to lowered heads

and rampant arogance that it is PART OF THE CULTURE.

Face for instance is part of patronage:

the more the face the more the patron and the inverse too.

It has functioned this way so long, that they seem at some what of a loss

as to how to NOT have a patronage culture. China had this in-grained feudalism

mostly broken by communism, but not Thailand, never colonized, never subjugated.

Not a bit, except an agreed upon annoyance during WWII.

Fuedalism also brings the successful to the top, kow towed to, and egos fed like summer orchids.

This is not a good environment for hubris moderation.

Hubris in the extreme is almost expected by the super successful.

Like Dr. T.

But for the old guard he came across as tackey, nouveau riche and rapacious.

No subtlety, no 50 year outlook, but a give it too me NOW outlook. Rather un-ZEN.

So maybe it is REALLY HARD for the Thai structures to grasp Democracy

as westerners usually understand it. This might likely account for several issues

we are witnessing now. Add on the culture shock of western media,

and you have serious presusres both for and against modernizing /

westernizing / democratizing.

And thus a pretty confused struggle to grasp the 21st century as the world sees it.

Or maybe not. YMMV

[thaigene2]

Important to note that the PAD themselves aren't a unified body, there are plenty of factions within that don't necessarily take part in all PAD activities. I have relatives that are both PAD and the anti-matter of PAD. Some are under-employed, some are retired (both of the not well to do gov't and well to do private sector variety), some are still working (again, all different occupations, from tiny shop restaurant owner to SME owner). Like politics anywhere, there are all kinds of interests involved, it's hardly a black and white issue.

Just as an example: one particular gal I know (not a friend, just a loose aquaintence) runs the local underground lottery at the local open air market. Turnover in the range of 3-4 million Baht per drawing (bi-monthly). She is avidly pro-PAD (and regularly sponsors minivan full loads of supporters up to Bangkok from Chonburi) because of course if the PPP get their 2-3 digit lottery up and running again, it bites into sales... also, the PPP lottery inherently comes with increased police enforcement/suppression of the underground lottery.

On the converse, another fellow I am acquainted with in Bangkok is with Loxley Info. (the old ISP/IT services provider company which may as well be called Lamsam Info...ala Kasikorn Bank) and is avidly anti-PAD. His interest is the opposite of the open market lotto gal mentioned earlier because wouldn't you know it, Loxley is the concession holder to produce the machines that run the new PPP lottery. And who do you think had first 'dibs' in signing up for these lotto scanning/selling machines? Loxley insiders, this particular gentleman included, who purchased 4 of them.... priceless if placed in key locations (say if you own a few prime location 7-11 franchises... ala lotto sales in the west). Worthless though if the PPP is out.

And this is just one example of one facet of the whole political struggle going on. And as you can see, neither side (as far as these two individuals concerned) could give two bits as to what the outcome is in terms of the "greater good of the poor/keeping the poor down" "Thaksin being brought to justice/brining Thaksin back to power" or the "fight for democracy."

Thanks for the insight .. probably the best post from you that I have ever read.

Agree every once in a while Heng hits a line drive with local info like this. Still, we ARE seeing the feudal/elites panicking..add this nugget to the Sondhi interview from above (last year) and his sudden forward play for an 'appointed' govt with formal military oversight and I think we all see where this is heading. The rich and powerful of course will win this eventually - just as always - as they have the poo-yais and the money on thei side - and Somsack in Ubon has a chicken and a dirt floor.

How does that Proclaimers tune go?..."Pat votes the Scots way...just like her mother, but South always takes all...just like her brother. The next time she might vote...Aye..so might the others, but time's running out pal, cause they're givin up in numbers. What do ya do, when Democracy fails you?.."

[RadioCityMike]

The more I think about it, the more I'm coming to the opinion that the initial PAD protests on Tuesday were "poisoned" somehow. Nothing we've seen from the PAD before and nothing we've seen from the PAD over the past two days (not including Tuesday obviously) seems to match the behavior of people that morning.

I just wish the leaders would make an official statement on their opinions of events. Maybe now is not the time...

If it was a setup deal, they left themselves wide open. When the protest group left the compound, the tone was that they would not be denied. There were many hours of screaming, shouting and cheering prior to their departure. Shortly thereafter, it was reported that they had used violence to overrun the TV station. Then someone reported that PAD had not been involved, but that had to be someone that was not watching ASTV. The prosecuters are going to have thousands of hours of video tape to pull out the most inflammatory rhetoric. They will focus on every misstep and error in judgement that PAD made. Unless the PAD leaders are the most brilliant speakers in the history of the world, they will be in trouble just because of the shear number of hours they have been on the air. They must have made many mistakes.