Thai Funerals For Non-thais

[OJAS]

Apologies for having to raise this gruesome matter - which, hopefully, will not happen for many more years yet in my case - but I am in a bit of a quandary at the moment.

I am a UK citizen currently resident in the UK, but moving to Thailand from end-October. In my UK will I have stated my preference for cremation and for no ceremony of a religious (i.e. Christian) nature. However, my sister (who is my next-of-kin in the UK) has advised me to make these wishes known to my Thai girlfriend, who is a Buddhist.

I understand from other threads which I have read on this forum and elsewhere that a Thai Buddhist funeral ceremony is quite different from a UK Christian one. My preference at the present time would still be for cremation (in Thailand or wherever) without any religious ceremony, just as would be the case were I to die in the UK. However, would I be likely to upset any cultural sensibilities and cause major offence with my girlfriend and her family were I to insist on such a course of action (notwithstanding that I am not a Buddhist)?

Any comments regarding this delicate topic would be greatly appreciated.

[dave_boo]

Apologies for having to raise this gruesome matter - which, hopefully, will not happen for many more years yet in my case - but I am in a bit of a quandary at the moment.

I am a UK citizen currently resident in the UK, but moving to Thailand from end-October. In my UK will I have stated my preference for cremation and for no ceremony of a religious (i.e. Christian) nature. However, my sister (who is my next-of-kin in the UK) has advised me to make these wishes known to my Thai girlfriend, who is a Buddhist.

I understand from other threads which I have read on this forum and elsewhere that a Thai Buddhist funeral ceremony is quite different from a UK Christian one. My preference at the present time would still be for cremation (in Thailand or wherever) without any religious ceremony, just as would be the case were I to die in the UK. However, would I be likely to upset any cultural sensibilities and cause major offence with my girlfriend and her family were I to insist on such a course of action (notwithstanding that I am not a Buddhist)?

Any comments regarding this delicate topic would be greatly appreciated.

Being also of the sort that doesn't believe in all that religious mumbo-jumbo and having already stipulated that organ donation to be followed by cremation is what should happen the advice I can give to you is to just let them do with the body as they wish. I believe that when you're dead that's it, so I really don't care a flying monkey about what happens to the decaying meat (with the aforementioned stipulation about donation). However, if it makes the family feel better to have whatever religious ceremonies done to it when I have no use for it, that ceremony won't hurt me any.

Of course some people have a real axe to grind with religion and want to make sure that they're not involved with it in ANY way. I'm more of the line of thought that unless someone can prove it than it probably doesn't exist.

[noise]

[quote

Any comments regarding this delicate topic would be greatly appreciated.

Two thoughts

1. Being a non-Buddhist, you would not upset any sensibilities with a simple cremation and disposal of ashes.

2. But your significant other may lose face, specially if you have a long, stable relationship and live among family and old friends. It does not have to be fancy and expensive, but some kind of service is required when a valued family member dies. And friends feel obligated to either go or send a representative.

So keep that in mind. And dave_boo summed it up nicely; you won't know the difference.

[jts-khorat]

Any comments regarding this delicate topic would be greatly appreciated.

I actually just came back from the cremation of a good friend of mine.

As this happened in a temple and with the large family of his wife present, it will not go without the religious part of it.

He did not particularly care for it, but as he stated correctly, he will be gone anyway, so let them do as they please -- and it gave his wife a chance to send him on his way in a proper form she could understand, so accepting this more for her welfare than your own might be the correct way to go about it.

Just my opinion.

[onzestan]

As far as I know, the Bhuddist religious ceremony brings closure to those you leave behind, and I believe this is a good thing.

Cremation is cremation so I' m not worried about it.

If you come to live in Thailand don't forget to inform your consulate/embassy of your last wishes, especially about what to do with your mortal remains.

cheers

onzestan

[apetley]

Cremation is cremation so I' m not worried about it.

cheers

onzestan

Just make sure your really dead before they go ahead.

[jts-khorat]

If you come to live in Thailand don't forget to inform your consulate/embassy of your last wishes, especially about what to do with your mortal remains.

This last point is a very vital one; in the case of my friend it took the embassy forever to release the remains, as no contact addresses for the children was left behind and they were unable to contact them.

So make sure that a testament or documents handed to the embassy will have a full contact list and/or statements who you wish NOT to be contacted, especially if you are not legally married to your 'wife' who will handle the cremation.

BTW, leaving the body on ice was THB 300 /day.

[PoorSucker]

For info about Thai Buddhist funerals.

http://www.thaiworldview.com/bouddha/ceremon6.htm

[alantheembalmer]

As I worked in the undertaking profession for many years, I can assure you that the funeral service, no matter where in the world it is held, is for the living, not for the deceased. It is always right to bear in mind the feelings of your loved ones left behind, so that the tragedy of your death is not compounded by insensitive instructions from yourself. If you think it through, you will probably come to the conclusion that it is better to consider the future life of those close to you, when making your wishes known.

[OJAS]

Many thanks for all your replies - far more than I had been expecting. I can see much good advice in all of them. Special thanks to onzetan regarding the consulate/embassy point which, I must admit, hadn't occurred to me previously.

Edited August 29, 2008 by OJAS

[Maizefarmer]

Apologies for having to raise this gruesome matter - which, hopefully, will not happen for many more years yet in my case - but I am in a bit of a quandary at the moment.

I am a UK citizen currently resident in the UK, but moving to Thailand from end-October. In my UK will I have stated my preference for cremation and for no ceremony of a religious (i.e. Christian) nature. However, my sister (who is my next-of-kin in the UK) has advised me to make these wishes known to my Thai girlfriend, who is a Buddhist.

I understand from other threads which I have read on this forum and elsewhere that a Thai Buddhist funeral ceremony is quite different from a UK Christian one. My preference at the present time would still be for cremation (in Thailand or wherever) without any religious ceremony, just as would be the case were I to die in the UK. However, would I be likely to upset any cultural sensibilities and cause major offence with my girlfriend and her family were I to insist on such a course of action (notwithstanding that I am not a Buddhist)?

Any comments regarding this delicate topic would be greatly appreciated.

No more so than having a Buddhist ceromany in the Uk would upset Christians.....

[onzestan]

Many thanks for all your replies - far more than I had been expecting. I can see much good advice in all of them. Special thanks to onzetan regarding the consulate/embassy point which, I must admit, hadn't occurred to me previously.

You're very welcome.

cheers

onzestan

[thaipapajim]

When my wife (English) & I came here to live a few years ago she and her sister brought their 83 years old mother. It was that or leave he in an old folks' home with no one o see her. She had a great year here but unfortunately died in April last year.

A service at the Roman Catholic church was arranged followed by a cremation at a local Buddhist temple. I don't think there are any other crematoria other than at temples but could be wrong. The cremation had no Buddhist ceremony although we followed the tradition of throwing in a flower into the furnace as Thais do. Be prepared that the furnace is opened and the coffin placed in then the furnace is lit. (Be aware that sometimes the body is removed from the coffin and placed in the furnace). There were a few Thais already in the temple who were quite surprised at seeing westerners having a cremation but they were quite respectful.

So if the RC ceremony had not taken place there was the simple cremation that could be arranged.

As an aside - the British Embassy in Bangkok were extremely helpful right from contacting us about 1 hour after the death and being notified of the death by Hua Hin Tourist Police (as required by law) to giving us the contact details of the funeral director in Bangkok who made all arrangements in Hua Hin on our behalf (storage at morgue, coffin, funeral cars, RC ceremony, cremation, collection of ashes etc). Total cost was about 30,000 Baht. We arranged our own flowers and food after the services.

Hope this is of some help not only to OP but to other BMs.

[ianh68]

My situation is almost identical with the OP but with one difference, and I would appreciate comments in the light of what has already been said in this thread. The difference is that I have made arrangements for service and burial in the UK so that I can be near my parents. My health insurance covers me for "repatriation of mortal remains". I had envisaged my body being sent back to the UK for cremation. Now I wonder if a cremation in Thailand and repatriation of the ashes would be wiser and fairer to my Thai wife. (This is really very delicate, as the OP says).

I don't think I can be buried in Thailand, in deference to my UK family (sister, daughter from previous marriage etc). On the other hand this thread has made me realise more fully my responsibilities to my current Thai family, whom I have known for the last three years (I am 61 and retired).

I am also at a loss to know who to ask to conduct a UK ceremony as having become more familiar with Buddhism since moving to Thailand, I no longer classify myself as atheist, more of an agnostic with Christian roots and Buddhist sensitivities, both of which I would want to include in any memorial service.

Any comments in the same helpful vein as those that have gone before would be much appreciated, and many thanks to OJAS for starting this thread.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

However, would I be likely to upset any cultural sensibilities and cause major offence with my girlfriend and her family were I to insist on such a course of action (notwithstanding that I am not a Buddhist)?

Possibly; because the ceremonies are only partly on behalf of the deceased; a big part of the largely animist ceremony is to make sure the spirit really moves on and doesn't stick around to haunt the general area. Therefore I think everyone will sleep better at night if the usual proceedings are followed to a degree.

And indeed like others mentioned, a more traditional funeral will help loved ones deal with the loss.

And finally, funerals are also a good opportunity for some eating & boozing... I think no matter what your religion (or no religion at all) that would be a good thing no matter what.

[jbd]

Apologies for having to raise this gruesome matter - which, hopefully, will not happen for many more years yet in my case - but I am in a bit of a quandary at the moment.

I am a UK citizen currently resident in the UK, but moving to Thailand from end-October. In my UK will I have stated my preference for cremation and for no ceremony of a religious (i.e. Christian) nature. However, my sister (who is my next-of-kin in the UK) has advised me to make these wishes known to my Thai girlfriend, who is a Buddhist.

I understand from other threads which I have read on this forum and elsewhere that a Thai Buddhist funeral ceremony is quite different from a UK Christian one. My preference at the present time would still be for cremation (in Thailand or wherever) without any religious ceremony, just as would be the case were I to die in the UK. However, would I be likely to upset any cultural sensibilities and cause major offence with my girlfriend and her family were I to insist on such a course of action (notwithstanding that I am not a Buddhist)?

Any comments regarding this delicate topic would be greatly appreciated.

i had the same thoughts. i visited the uk embassy, and was informed that if i died in thailand as a uk citizen the police will forward my passport to the uk embassy and they will contact my next of kin. who will instruct the embassy on what to do with the body. my advice is to make sure your next of kin knows your wishes. also your partner in thailand needs to know of your wishes as well

[JohnC]

Information from the British Embassy is that it is very expensive to repatriate a body (around 200,000 baht) The best format would be a cremation at a temple preceded by a simple service by a Pastor/Priest of the religion of choice then after cremation the ashes could be shipped to UK for interment. I was told by a local pastor that the normal donation to a temple for cremation is 5000 baht.

[alantheembalmer]

My situation is almost identical with the OP but with one difference, and I would appreciate comments in the light of what has already been said in this thread. The difference is that I have made arrangements for service and burial in the UK so that I can be near my parents. My health insurance covers me for "repatriation of mortal remains". I had envisaged my body being sent back to the UK for cremation. Now I wonder if a cremation in Thailand and repatriation of the ashes would be wiser and fairer to my Thai wife. (This is really very delicate, as the OP says).

I don't think I can be buried in Thailand, in deference to my UK family (sister, daughter from previous marriage etc). On the other hand this thread has made me realise more fully my responsibilities to my current Thai family, whom I have known for the last three years (I am 61 and retired).

I am also at a loss to know who to ask to conduct a UK ceremony as having become more familiar with Buddhism since moving to Thailand, I no longer classify myself as atheist, more of an agnostic with Christian roots and Buddhist sensitivities, both of which I would want to include in any memorial service.

Any comments in the same helpful vein as those that have gone before would be much appreciated, and many thanks to OJAS for starting this thread.

Ian. If the thought crossed your mind that sending your body to the UK for cremation would give your relatives the oppotunity to view your body to pay their respects, then DO NOT. The quality of body preservation, that is embalming, is woeful outside of the US, UK and some parts of Europe, and your body will probably be unidentifiable by those who knew you. I have told relatives on many occasions that the body of their loved one should be in a sealed coffin and not viewed after being repatriated, and those who ignored my advice were traumatised by what they saw, and said they wished they had taken my advice. I think it would be better if you told all of those near you of your wishes, and explain how this fits in with their view of the funeral or memorial service. Without giving any direct advice, I think your idea of a service in Thailand for your Thai wife, and then scattering your ashes with those who were close to you in your life in the UK, sounds about right. Good luck.

[jts-khorat]

My situation is almost identical with the OP but with one difference, and I would appreciate comments in the light of what has already been said in this thread. The difference is that I have made arrangements for service and burial in the UK so that I can be near my parents. My health insurance covers me for "repatriation of mortal remains". I had envisaged my body being sent back to the UK for cremation. Now I wonder if a cremation in Thailand and repatriation of the ashes would be wiser and fairer to my Thai wife. (This is really very delicate, as the OP says).

I don't think I can be buried in Thailand, in deference to my UK family (sister, daughter from previous marriage etc). On the other hand this thread has made me realise more fully my responsibilities to my current Thai family, whom I have known for the last three years (I am 61 and retired).

I am also at a loss to know who to ask to conduct a UK ceremony as having become more familiar with Buddhism since moving to Thailand, I no longer classify myself as atheist, more of an agnostic with Christian roots and Buddhist sensitivities, both of which I would want to include in any memorial service.

Any comments in the same helpful vein as those that have gone before would be much appreciated, and many thanks to OJAS for starting this thread.

Ian. If the thought crossed your mind that sending your body to the UK for cremation would give your relatives the oppotunity to view your body to pay their respects, then DO NOT. The quality of body preservation, that is embalming, is woeful outside of the US, UK and some parts of Europe, and your body will probably be unidentifiable by those who knew you. I have told relatives on many occasions that the body of their loved one should be in a sealed coffin and not viewed after being repatriated, and those who ignored my advice were traumatised by what they saw, and said they wished they had taken my advice. I think it would be better if you told all of those near you of your wishes, and explain how this fits in with their view of the funeral or memorial service. Without giving any direct advice, I think your idea of a service in Thailand for your Thai wife, and then scattering your ashes with those who were close to you in your life in the UK, sounds about right. Good luck.

I do not know about body preservation for transpoert outisde of Thailand; but with regard to my friend: he died in hopsital and until the embassy released his remains, 10 days passed.

In this whole time he was, as far as I understand it, first in a freezer in hospital and later in a freezer in the temple. Only right before cremation was the body together with the coffin taken out of the freezer box and opened so that everybody could place joss sticks in it. Even after 10 days he still looked life-like enough, only a few discolorations on the hands. So far so good.

The temple gets zero points for how the body was placed in the coffin, it looked rather like an uncomfortable position; not that my friend would have cared about it much, he would have laughed about my sentimentality, as really I should even though it seems difficult for me right at this moment to see it that way.

If you are sentimental as well, your testament would need separate clauses about such issues like presentation, and better in Thai and discussed with your aprtner about possibilities (my friend went unshaved and in full clothes but without shoes and socks, another point that I personally was quite upset about, I really do not know why: but he was known to be careful about his image to the world in living).

A point to note. How your friends and family will see you in that moment is a big part of how they will remember you, not that you will still care then. But you should now.

[joe552]

Not wishing to hijack the thread, but what advice would you give to someone (me) who doesn't expect to have a partner when I die? I haven't yet moved from Ireland (maybe 12 years down the road) but my family here are aware that once I'm there, I will make my own arrangements. Are there funeral directors I can go to, lodge my plans with them, and leave it at that? Repatriation wouldn't be an issue.

[jts-khorat]

Not wishing to hijack the thread, but what advice would you give to someone (me) who doesn't expect to have a partner when I die? I haven't yet moved from Ireland (maybe 12 years down the road) but my family here are aware that once I'm there, I will make my own arrangements. Are there funeral directors I can go to, lodge my plans with them, and leave it at that? Repatriation wouldn't be an issue.

There was a guy advertising exactly such services in the local newspaper not too long back.

I can understand not expecting to have no partner at this time, but livign without friends would be unimaginable for me. Therefore, if everything is kept simple, having everything handled by a trusted friend would be surely a better option. Besides the paperwork with the embassy, the actual cremation at a temple will be a fairly simple and fast operation (if you so choose); having talked about requirements with a lawyer, eg what to put in your testament, will help too.

Again the warning, if you still have family back in your homecountry, the embassy will be required to contact them. Especially if contact has been broken off, this can be a lengthy process, so having addresses or (valid) phone numbers -- or clear advice who not to contact -- in your testament and accompanying papers is a must.

Obviously it would be helping anybody at this stage if your paperwork is in order, including those of the temple and other relevant places. Having reserched the process and talked your friend through over a beer would also be due procedure. Unluckily, if you will not die at undue young an age, you and your friends most likely will have gotten ample experience in this anyway, this is just the way if life.

[alantheembalmer]

Not wishing to hijack the thread, but what advice would you give to someone (me) who doesn't expect to have a partner when I die? I haven't yet moved from Ireland (maybe 12 years down the road) but my family here are aware that once I'm there, I will make my own arrangements. Are there funeral directors I can go to, lodge my plans with them, and leave it at that? Repatriation wouldn't be an issue.

Joe. Many, if not all, funeral directors in the UK, and probably Ireland, will have procedures for arranging funerals for people who are still alive. These are kept in a system called the NYD files. Unoriginally, this stands for the Not Yet Dead files, (undertakers are not too much into subtlety!). I would have thought that a long established funeral director in Thailand would also be able to accommodate you in the same way. People go down the NYD road for various reason, eg. they have no relatives or have particular religious views that they suspect will not be honoured on their death. What you definitely need to do is set up some form of "audit trail" so that on your death a train of actions is put in motion about what needs to be done, and who needs to be informed. You can start with a trusted neighbour or your condo manager, for example. It needs to be someone that sees you on a regular basis, not necessarily someone you are friendly with, even if their job is just to telephone your attorney etc. to tell them of your demise. One thing you need to bear in mind is that people on the NYD files are usually expected to pay for their arrangements in advance. I hope this helps.

[joe552]

thanks, Alanthe... just what I needed.

[dclaryjr]

I've paid for three rather elaborate funerals in my wife's village--once for her father, once for her mother, and once for her mother and father (moved the ashes to a new location). You can bet there's gonna be a heII of a party when I go including the all night stage play! They're gonna remember this farang!

[altman]

several people have made reference to making sure the embassy knows of who to notify, etc.

how do i do that? walk in and hand them a slip of paper? fill out a form? pin a note on my chest?

i had considered writing out my will/testament, having it translated, going to the embassy to have it (english/thai) notarized, and then leaving it in a place where it can be easily found. is that the way to do that?

[camerata]

several people have made reference to making sure the embassy knows of who to notify, etc.

how do i do that? walk in and hand them a slip of paper? fill out a form? pin a note on my chest?

i had considered writing out my will/testament, having it translated, going to the embassy to have it (english/thai) notarized, and then leaving it in a place where it can be easily found. is that the way to do that?

You can register with your embassy. The process includes letting them know who is next of kin, etc. In general, a will is not valid in Thailand unless written in Thai and registered at the Amphur office. But with regards to funeral arrangements, if there is no will I suspect the embassy will contact the next of kin for instructions.

[Wellmeant]

but one must know that some of your organs must be taken at once. So think about that, I do and no donations. But I am sick not much to offer. Just cremation, no viewing, no bullshit. I like the stick me good with a pin a time or two.

Apologies for having to raise this gruesome matter - which, hopefully, will not happen for many more years yet in my case - but I am in a bit of a quandary at the moment.

I am a UK citizen currently resident in the UK, but moving to Thailand from end-October. In my UK will I have stated my preference for cremation and for no ceremony of a religious (i.e. Christian) nature. However, my sister (who is my next-of-kin in the UK) has advised me to make these wishes known to my Thai girlfriend, who is a Buddhist.

I understand from other threads which I have read on this forum and elsewhere that a Thai Buddhist funeral ceremony is quite different from a UK Christian one. My preference at the present time would still be for cremation (in Thailand or wherever) without any religious ceremony, just as would be the case were I to die in the UK. However, would I be likely to upset any cultural sensibilities and cause major offence with my girlfriend and her family were I to insist on such a course of action (notwithstanding that I am not a Buddhist)?

Any comments regarding this delicate topic would be greatly appreciated.

Being also of the sort that doesn't believe in all that religious mumbo-jumbo and having already stipulated that organ donation to be followed by cremation is what should happen the advice I can give to you is to just let them do with the body as they wish. I believe that when you're dead that's it, so I really don't care a flying monkey about what happens to the decaying meat (with the aforementioned stipulation about donation). However, if it makes the family feel better to have whatever religious ceremonies done to it when I have no use for it, that ceremony won't hurt me any.

Of course some people have a real axe to grind with religion and want to make sure that they're not involved with it in ANY way. I'm more of the line of thought that unless someone can prove it than it probably doesn't exist.

[Wellmeant]

and you will feel great about all of this. Remembered? Nope just the booze and food, not you.

I've paid for three rather elaborate funerals in my wife's village--once for her father, once for her mother, and once for her mother and father (moved the ashes to a new location). You can bet there's gonna be a heII of a party when I go including the all night stage play! They're gonna remember this farang!

[Arkady]

Well you came to the right place if you want to be cremated. Apart from that no point in worrying what kind of ceremonies they choose or choose not to perform. Thais will most likely do what seems natural and respectful to them and might think your wishes are too bizarre to follow. Your embassy couldn't give a dam_n what happens to you, while you are alive here, let alone what happens to you after you are dead. The Thai authorities force them to take responsibility for foreigners who die without any one to take responsibilty for their arrangements or where the loved ones are tourists who haven't a clue how to arrange things. If the deceased has Thai family, they will normally arrange things themselves without involving the embassy.

[Wellmeant]

be that as it is, I for one do not want a parade/party. It is and will be my wish to have a no frills quick cremation. Family can say good bye, hope to see some of them later. Some no thanks, that might be hel_l.

As I worked in the undertaking profession for many years, I can assure you that the funeral service, no matter where in the world it is held, is for the living, not for the deceased. It is always right to bear in mind the feelings of your loved ones left behind, so that the tragedy of your death is not compounded by insensitive instructions from yourself. If you think it through, you will probably come to the conclusion that it is better to consider the future life of those close to you, when making your wishes known.