Is "farang" Impolite?

[thithi]

nothing bad with this word. since i'm thai...

we cant tell which nationalities u guyss are ...

so all caucasian are called Farang... cos we cant say chao tang chad all the timeg

unlike we got a word to call chinese....

[Andrew Hicks]

Last weekend, I was asked to teach an intensive course to 4th year, university Sociolgy Students.

I taught them about describing one's ethnicity but first asked them to fill in a group questionaire as to what was polite to say in Thailand.

I found the results interesting but actually thought as much:-

1 - Black - polite

2 - Kaek(Indian) - impolite

3 - Jaek (Chinese) - impolite

4 - Farang - impolite

PLease don't embarass yourselves by calling yourself a farang.

Interesting but never conclusive.

It perhaps suggests that all references for foreigners must of necessity be demeaning, 'black' being the odd one out. Perhaps this is because Thais have an insensitivity towards issues of race in this context... hence locally produced 'Negro' hair dye and 'Black Man' mops... motto, "Think Cleaning, Think Black Man". The company is aware enough though to export under other brand names, though in Thailand what he hel_l if it's offensive.

Darkie toothpaste changed it's name to Darlie though. Why not 'Blakeman' mops. Thai buyers wouldn't notice the difference.

The use of 'farang' is very variable. There are many ugly farang swilling around Thailand that earn a bad reputation, but on the other hand farang sometimes have considerable prestiege hre. The overtones depend entirely on the speaker and vary from time to time.

The other day at a remote temple, some Thais came round a corner and openly said, 'Tock jai, farang!' They were as benign as could be and I'm sure used a term that to them had no adverse implications.

Farang we remain.

[klikster]

I dont recall calling myself farang, but its not something i would avoid. When i talk to other westerners, i say westerner, but many times when talking with Thai friends I will say farang, as its such a normal term, especially if talking in Thai.

Actually, I do avoid the word.

I always tell Thais my country, even US state of origin, sometimes the city. I simply think it would be a good thing if Thai folks saw us as individuals and not one composite "farang". So I try to do my part.

[klikster]

nothing bad with this word. since i'm thai...

we cant tell which nationalities u guyss are ...

so all caucasian are called Farang... cos we cant say chao tang chad all the timeg

unlike we got a word to call chinese....

I don't mind so much being referred to as "farang". But when someone speaking directly to me uses "farang" I normally ignore them. If they are too rude to use a simple "khun" or even "you", then I don't want anything to do with them.

[klikster]

Farang is from the word France, French.

K. thithi,

You will see a lot of disagreement on that if you search around a bit. Many sources say it is a derivation of the Persian word "farangi", foreigners. And "farangi" made it's way to SE Asia via Arab traders .. some say, long before the French.

[skiman1]

Last weekend, I was asked to teach an intensive course to 4th year, university Sociolgy Students.

I taught them about describing one's ethnicity but first asked them to fill in a group questionaire as to what was polite to say in Thailand.

I found the results interesting but actually thought as much:-

1 - Black - polite

2 - Kaek(Indian) - impolite

3 - Jaek (Chinese) - impolite

4 - Farang - impolite

PLease don't embarass yourselves by calling yourself a farang.

who cares ??? your students are dumbasses !

[neion2000]

farang is as i can understand not impolite but it's the use that makes it impolite.

eg : you ask for an info to someone who doesn't know the answer, he then goes to see his friends and says the farang needs to know this. <--- this is impolite

the right sentence should be something like, the person needs to know this. <-- polite way

Good God!!! What is polite or impolite in the country you're from, may not be that way in Thailand..

It's Thailand, you're in their Country.... That's the way they describe (A NON-THAI).. What is the problem??

[klikster]

Yeah all you farangs talk b*lls**t, most of us will always be referred to as Farang outside of our Thai friends.

Hey farang you want taxi?

I prefer this to them shouting " Hey , YOU, YOU " This always kind of annoyed me.

I do remember one time my father and i were walking and some thai teenager was pointing and saying FALANG! FALANG! and I pointed back and said KHON THAI! KHON THAI! All the other thai people around started laughing along with the 3 of us.

I don't think it is derogative for most people in every day use. My neighbor calls me Lung Falang and has no problem letting his kids go every where with with me and my family.

Thais have a way of calling out to people, "Ay". "You" is a very accurate translation of "Khun" which is considered polite. I'll let you draw you own conclusions.

Many years ago I had a brief and rather fractured conversation with a gaggle of samlor drivers in Udorn, about this very issue. Being a relative greenhorn, I took verbal issue with them calling out, "Hey you!" Then a passerby explained that "Hey" was really "Ay" and I started seeing the light.

I explained to them that "Excuse me" or "Excuse me, sir/madame" might be more lucrative .. fares and tips. The gaggle of rivers grew as we practice all versions. When I departed the gathering I got deep wais, thanks and sincere smiles. Listening over my shoulder I heard repeated, "Excuse me, sir", "Excuse me, madame" being diligently practiced.

[onethailand]

I'm not sure if you understand how difficult it is to get work in Thailand for a non-resident... as domestic help, they can get in easily. As a cashier - highly, highly unusual. The great majority of Thais in HK still work as domestic help, though there are of course a number of successful businesspeople as well.

The number of Thais in HK in 2003 was 13K. I assure you it is not much different now.

I know very well the employment regulations in HK, especially where they apply to Thais. My wife worked with an agency who placed Thai residents (I did not refer to non-residents) in such employment, I assure you that Thais in such jobs is quite normal. Actually my wife's sister (Thai national) is branch manager of Park n Shop Tseung Kwung O store.

In 2005 28,350 Thais were registered in HK, but they tended to live there in extended families and their offspring (born in HK) were not registered as Thais, so this figure is misleading. http://www.info.gov.hk/info/hkbrief/eng/ahk.htm

You obviously lived in a different HK (and I suspect Thailand) to me and have different perspectives.

One Thai (your sister) does not a LOT of Thais make. And you still miss the point - it is difficult to get work in Hong Kong (just noticed my mistake LOL) if you are not a resident. It has always been this way since before 1997 and it is no different now and never will be. Clearly your opinion is biased because of your proximity to a person (your wife) whose work specialized in overseas placement.

I repeat again - there are nowhere near 50K Thais in Hong Kong. And if people are not registered as Thais, then they are not Thai and should not be counted as amongst a Thai population.

The closest comparison to HK (which is mostly a city) is Bangkok (which is where I live now). I do think I have a pretty accurate perspective of both. I would not presume to compare someplace upcountry with Hong Kong. I myself worked in both cities, speak both languages, frequent local establishments not usually catering to foreigners, etc. In fact I am Asian so I have no trouble blending in, either - I assure you I can easily tell the difference since I am often exposed to things as if I were not a "gweilo" or "farang".

[onethailand]

Darkie toothpaste changed it's name to Darlie though. Why not 'Blakeman' mops. Thai buyers wouldn't notice the difference.

Darkie didn't change its name because of racial sensitivity in Thailand. It changed its name because of the potential problem in Hong Kong - that and the fact it was about to be sold to Colgate. It also had to modify its logo slightly.

(source: the horse's mouth - my friend's grandfather owned the brand)

[Stephen Cleary]

Farang is from the word France, French.

K. thithi,

And "farangi" made it's way to SE Asia via Arab traders .. some say, long before the French.

As i mentioned earlier and klikster's expansion on that:

It was only during the reign of King Narai (1629-1688) that extensive relations with the European powers were built and especially the French. In 1662, Narai allowed the first French jesuits to settle in the kingdom to preach Catholicism to the masses. The French who visited before that, only came sporadically.

Compare the first fervent French arrival in Siam (late 17th century) to that of the Persians (16th century)

The first Persian merchants to arrive in Siam were during the reign of King Naresuan the Great (1555-1605) and it was Naresuan himself who allowed the initial migration of Persians to permanently settle in Thailand.

Due to this historical perspective, i'll stick to my opinion that the word Farang is Arabic/Persian in origin, but i could be wrong!

Edited August 27, 2008 by Stephen Cleary

[bkkjames]

Farang is from the word France, French.

K. thithi,

And "farangi" made it's way to SE Asia via Arab traders .. some say, long before the French.

As i mentioned earlier and klikster's expansion on that:

It was only during the reign of King Narai (1629-1688) that extensive relations with the European powers were built and especially the French. In 1662, Narai allowed the first French jesuits to settle in the kingdom to preach Catholicism to the masses. The French who visited before that, only came sporadically.

Compare the first fervent French arrival in Siam (late 17th century) to that of the Persians (16th century)

The first Persian merchants to arrive in Siam were during the reign of King Naresuan the Great (1555-1605) and it was Naresuan himself who allowed the initial migration of Persians to permanently settle in Thailand, it is unknown how many actually came but their influence on the higher echelons of Thai society and especially the monarchy (later on) were huge.

Due to this historical perspective, i'll stick to my opinion that the word Farang is Arabic/Persian in origin, but i could be wrong!

As neither someone of Arabic / Persion heritage, why is it that locals call me farang then? Are you suggesting they can't tell the difference?

[barky]

nothing bad with this word. since i'm thai...

we cant tell which nationalities u guyss are ...

so all caucasian are called Farang... cos we cant say chao tang chad all the timeg

unlike we got a word to call chinese....

You miss the main point. It's not the word itself. And it's not a problem when used in its correct context or tone and not ment to be negative. However, it is equally used for negative racist xenophobic situations. It's the generally the only word Thais use for westeners in virtually every situation. Often there are numerous times it is inappropriate and rude and derogitory. OK I understand some westeners don't mind being called this word all the time, but others like me, do not. Whether you accept this or not, it is so Asian.

[ade100]

This is another "sticks & stones" thread.

If a known Thai person (who can speak English) starts talking Thai (with other Thais) within earshot & you hear the word "farang", do you immediately think that they are talking about you? If so, do you think they are speaking badly of you, considering that these people can speak English? Well, I guess you could think so but you could also be very wrong, unless you are fluent in Thai.

And if you really are not fluent in a language & you do "hear" certain words, the most important thing is your choice of reaction to those "heard" words.

Remember what our grandparents taught us but we continually ignore, "Sticks & stones can break our bones but names can never hurt us".

I think the OP's point is not that we should get all upset when we hear the F word. His point, which is a good one, is that we shouldn't refer to ourselves as Farangs as it shows a lack of self-respect. I think we should we proud of our origins, our race and our many cultures. Why use a vaguely impolite Thai slang word to descibe oursleves even when we are speaking English?

I call myslef a Westerner, a European, an Ex-Pat, a Caucasian, a Singapore Permanent Resident, but not a Farango.

[pnustedt]

The closest comparison to HK (which is mostly a city) is Bangkok (which is where I live now). I do think I have a pretty accurate perspective of both. I would not presume to compare someplace upcountry with Hong Kong. I myself worked in both cities, speak both languages, frequent local establishments not usually catering to foreigners, etc. In fact I am Asian so I have no trouble blending in, either - I assure you I can easily tell the difference since I am often exposed to things as if I were not a "gweilo" or "farang".

Trying to get back on topic:

I think that you miss the point. If one lives in an affluent area of central Bkk you are less likely to be referred disparagingly to as a "Farang" than if one lived in a remote area of Isaan, perhaps because Western people are much more in evidence and accepted, and local people are generally better educated in Bkk.

There are parallels with HK - if one lives in Mid-Levels and works in Central for a multi-national you are less likely to be referred to as a Gweilo than if one lived in Sham Sui Po and was the only westerner working for a large local Chinese company (as I was).

As you are Asian this obviously does not refer to "you" as an individual.

[meadish_sweetball]

In UK, how do UK people refer to Asians ?

I recall South Asians being referred to as Packies (as in Pakistanis) in the UK.

My understanding is that Farang is a derivative of Farancais (as in French). Calling a Brit Farang is as derogatory as calling a Thai a Packie. Hopefully, most people now know it is not correct to use Packie when referring to South Asians, this cannot be said of the use of Farang in Thailand.

When I lived in Hong Kong westerners were often referred to as Gweilho (translated from ghostly old man). However, most educated Chinese did realise that this was offensive, and its use often said much of the ignorance of the user.

You understand the origins of the word farang incorrectly

Not trying to get into an argument or anything, but the above it what I've been told by a number of Thai's also, care to enlighten us?

Also, what does "mun" mean?

'Mun' means 'it' but that's not the whole truth. Thais are taught a hyper-correct way of speaking in school, that even few teachers would use outside of the classroom environment and official functions.

It is impolite to use 'mun' when referring to a person, in a Standard Thai context, but still fairly common when referring casually to people who do not merit special respect through age or position. This is not necessarily the same thing as a deliberate insult, although it could be.

At least in Northern Thai, 'mun' is used to refer to family members and friends without any intention of being insulting or impolite. Nobody bats an eyelid at such usage from what I've seen. It wouldn't be appropriate to use about the head of the village, a monk or higher ranking people though. If it used that way, then it is deliberately disrespectful.

I think it's premature to automatically assume that if somebody refers to you as 'mun' it is intended as an insult. Language and people aren't mathematical formulas. Look at the overall situation it was used in. Don't always trust that people you ask will know what they are talking about. You may be given an answer based on what they've learned in school, which doesn't really reflect the reality of usage, just the official norm when speaking Standard Thai.

My understanding is that Farang is a derivative of Farancais (as in French). Calling a Brit Farang is as derogatory as calling a Thai a Packie. Hopefully, most people now know it is not correct to use Packie when referring to South Asians, this cannot be said of the use of Farang in Thailand.

The more likely theory of the origin of the word is that it is the same word that the Arabs used about the Europeans, and that exists in many languages around the old trade routes into Asia, for example in Persian 'ferengi'.

The origins of a word is not sufficient argument to say if a word is actually impolite or not. What determines this is actual, current usage on the one hand, and the social norm on the other.

I've given my opinion before, which is simply that 'farang' is not the most polite way of referring to a Westerner, but on the other hand it is not the most rude way either. It is not necessarily, and not always impolite. In fact, in many if not most contexts it is just a neutral everyday description with the approximate attributes for the noun

'A Caucasian/Westerner, or person of Caucasian/Western appearance'

For the adjective

'Western (European/American)'

It is common in the Thai language to refer to this and that with the attribute 'farang' and in such a context it is just a neutral descriptor, unless the person is also showing clear and obvious dislike. Examples of neutral usage 'ahaan farang' (Western food) 'nang farang' (Western movies) 'phleeng farang' (Western music).

When a person uses 'farang' instead of your name when speaking directly to you, that's a different situation. It is definitely impolite.

Bottom line, if you don't speak reasonably good Thai, try not to think too much about it because if you don't understand the rest of the words surrounding the word 'farang' you can't be sure what people are speaking of. They may just say that 'Westerners don't like to eat pla raa' or 'The Westerner over there says the chicken is not properly cooked'.

[bkkjames]

or in the case of people who write very long posts zzzzzzz

Farang bah!!

[egg6447]

as a point of interest. those of you with hasiphasip kids that are old enough to debate. what are there thought on the use of falang. this would to me put a lot more light on the subject.

[Beardog]

what are we then?

This thread has been done a billion times, more importantly I just figured out your avatar..........it's a lamp ! All this time I thought it was a lady's crotch ! Man, that's a funny halucination......

The thread, as I understand it the first whites here were French, "Farangset' in Thai, morphed to cover all foreigners to "Farang". Impliteness I think would have to be taken in context, otherwise NOT.

Huggybear I thought that was a pair of a womens legs going up to pink heaven myself. thats a hel_l of a subliminal avatar!

[onethailand]

I think that you miss the point. If one lives in an affluent area of central Bkk you are less likely to be referred disparagingly to as a "Farang" than if one lived in a remote area of Isaan, perhaps because Western people are much more in evidence and accepted, and local people are generally better educated in Bkk.

I think the point being made is that 'farang' is not necessarily impolite. It matters not what part of the country you are in - what matters is the context and the tone.

There are parallels with HK - if one lives in Mid-Levels and works in Central for a multi-national you are less likely to be referred to as a Gweilo than if one lived in Sham Sui Po and was the only westerner working for a large local Chinese company (as I was).

As you are Asian this obviously does not refer to "you" as an individual.

I have done both, and I can tell you that "gweilo" is just as common in Central as it is anywhere else in Hong Kong. Obviously, however, if you are the only gweilo around, then you are more likely to take it personally

Strangely enough, 'gweilo' does not only refer to Caucasians - it refers to overseas-born Chinese as well if they cannot speak the language fluently - so I can assure you that in fact it did apply to me too until I became more fluent. If anything, Asians who don't speak the lingo are more commonly called "Say gweilo" - which is more derogatory because they expect you to speak Cantonese!

On the sports field - "say gweilo" was always understood to mean me, even if there were other "gweilos" in the team or competing in the event. They were especially upset to be losing to me.

Trust me - I've been on the receiving end too.

[roygsd]

Last weekend, I was asked to teach an intensive course to 4th year, university Sociolgy Students.

I taught them about describing one's ethnicity but first asked them to fill in a group questionaire as to what was polite to say in Thailand.

I found the results interesting but actually thought as much:-

1 - Black - polite

2 - Kaek(Indian) - impolite

3 - Jaek (Chinese) - impolite

4 - Farang - impolite

PLease don't embarass yourselves by calling yourself a farang.

What if we call ourselves "Falangs" instead, is that ok? LOL

roy gsd

[mr_hippo]

If anyone is upset by the word 'farang', please report to your nearest hospital where you will be fitted with a new spine and a new pair of balls, free of charge (Balls are optional for females)!

[torrenova]

I'll never refer to myself as farang or use it to describe others. I tend to use the word "westerner" instead. Whilst some use of the word farang may be descriptive, why single us out ? Too often the word is used in a negative fashon by Thais who are showing resentment, trying to belittle us, wanting to look down on us or have some other negative thoughts. it is not used the same way that gai-jin is used in Japan for instance.

[nidge]

I am a falang, (not farang, i'm in Issan), when i do not eat Thai food i eat falang food, i live in a falang style house, my son is half falang. Whenever i go out with my family i hear people saying luk falang, (or similar), and pointing at my son. Why, exactly, should i be embarrassed/ashamed/enraged/insulted?

For those of you that don't like being called falang/farang that's your choice but please stop telling the rest of us that we shouldn't like it too.

[skiman1]

If anyone is upset by the word 'farang', please report to your nearest hospital where you will be fitted with a new spine and a new pair of balls, free of charge (Balls are optional for females)!

balls are fitted as standard to Scottish women

[Maigo6]

I'll never refer to myself as farang or use it to describe others. I tend to use the word "westerner" instead. Whilst some use of the word farang may be descriptive, why single us out ? Too often the word is used in a negative fashon by Thais who are showing resentment, trying to belittle us, wanting to look down on us or have some other negative thoughts. it is not used the same way that gai-jin is used in Japan for instance.

In what way is Gaijin different from Farang ?

In Japan one can have a Gaijin card, stay in a Gaijin house..etc etc.

[Neeranam]

I think the OP's point is not that we should get all upset when we hear the F word. His point, which is a good one, is that we shouldn't refer to ourselves as Farangs as it shows a lack of self-respect. I think we should we proud of our origins, our race and our many cultures. Why use a vaguely impolite Thai slang word to descibe oursleves even when we are speaking English?

Exactly Ade.

[Maigo6]

I think the OP's point is not that we should get all upset when we hear the F word. His point, which is a good one, is that we shouldn't refer to ourselves as Farangs as it shows a lack of self-respect. I think we should we proud of our origins, our race and our many cultures. Why use a vaguely impolite Thai slang word to descibe oursleves even when we are speaking English?

Exactly Ade.

I don't believe this....................

Do you really expect Thai people to not use the term Farng cos in the past 30 years many Farang have come to Thailand ?

What the fawk do Pakistani people or Bangladeshi people or Indian people get called in UK, think about it!

You Farangs think too much, and I'll have a little bet that when you first came to Thailand, it never bothered you one iota!

After living here for a period of time, you really expect Thai peoples views on Farangs to change to suit you ?

In Thailand you're a Farang, if you wana be a Gaijin go to Japan, or if you wanna be just another nobody, go back home.

Farangs are always complaining!!!

[Neeranam]

'Mun' means 'it' but that's not the whole truth. Thais are taught a hyper-correct way of speaking in school, that even few teachers would use outside of the classroom environment and official functions.

It is impolite to use 'mun' when referring to a person, in a Standard Thai context, but still fairly common when referring casually to people who do not merit special respect through age or position. This is not necessarily the same thing as a deliberate insult, although it could be.

At least in Northern Thai, 'mun' is used to refer to family members and friends without any intention of being insulting or impolite. Nobody bats an eyelid at such usage from what I've seen. It wouldn't be appropriate to use about the head of the village, a monk or higher ranking people though. If it used that way, then it is deliberately disrespectful.

I think it's premature to automatically assume that if somebody refers to you as 'mun' it is intended as an insult. Language and people aren't mathematical formulas. Look at the overall situation it was used in. Don't always trust that people you ask will know what they are talking about. You may be given an answer based on what they've learned in school, which doesn't really reflect the reality of usage, just the official norm when speaking Standard Thai.

Yes, "mun" is used also in Isarn referring to family members and close friends. Generally, "Westerners" don't fit into this category and is, therefore, an insult.

I've given my opinion before, which is simply that 'farang' is not the most polite way of referring to a Westerner, but on the other hand it is not the most rude way either. It is not necessarily, and not always impolite. In fact, in many if not most contexts it is just a neutral everyday description with the approximate attributes for the noun

When a person uses 'farang' instead of your name when speaking directly to you, that's a different situation. It is definitely impolite.

Bottom line, if you don't speak reasonably good Thai, try not to think too much about it because if you don't understand the rest of the words surrounding the word 'farang' you can't be sure what people are speaking of. They may just say that 'Westerners don't like to eat pla raa' or 'The Westerner over there says the chicken is not properly cooked'.

Isn't it strange the way Thais change their language when they know can speak Thai. I'm sure you've experimented Meadish by saying you can't.

If people who can't, could speak Thai, their opinions would change

[ThNiner]

I'm Thai and have to say this for about the millionth time here that "Farang" is NOT an impolite word. :yawn: If any of you wanna take offense whenevr you hear the word, then it's your own problem not anyone else's.