Child Acknowledged By Birth Certificate?

[unthaime]

The dutch embassy argues that when in Thailand a child is born from unmarried mother and the persons on the birth certificate under number 3 "Father" and 4 "informant" is not the same,the Father named under item 3 on the birth certificate is not the legal father according to Thai law.

Can anybody confirm this to be true or tell me how I can proof them wrong?

Some more background to this question:

My children birth certificate's are made by the hospital were they were born and was included in the service.

My name is under item 3 "Father" but under item 4 is the name of a hospital official.

The children are born in 2000 and 2002 my wife and I where not married at that time.

I always believed I had acknowledged my children under Thai law by there birth certificate and thereby making me the legal father under Thai law.

According to the Dutch embassy this only happened when I Married my wife in November 2003.

This fact is important because before 1 April 2003 a minor foreign child acknowledged by a Dutch citizen when the birth was registered or afterward automatically acquired Dutch nationality according to the rules valid at the time.

Thanks in advance.

Simon

[the scouser]

It's really a question of Dutch nationality law. From what you've written, it sounds to me as though the Dutch authorities recognise legitimate children of the father, but as your two were born before your marriage, they will not necessarily have an automatic entitlement to Dutch citizenship.

Scouse.

[unthaime]

It's really a question of Dutch nationality law. From what you've written, it sounds to me as though the Dutch authorities recognise legitimate children of the father, but as your two were born before your marriage, they will not necessarily have an automatic entitlement to Dutch citizenship.

Scouse.

Thanks for your reply Scouce.

According Dutch nationality law before 1 April 2003 a minor foreign child acknowledged by a Dutch citizen when the birth was registered or afterwards automatically acquired Dutch nationality.

As far as I know I acknowledged my children before 2003 by Birth Certificate where my name is under item 3 as the father.

This means my children acquired Dutch nationality automatically at that moment.

Dutch embassy says I did not acknowledge my children because I'm not the informant on the birth certificate and that according to Thai law I was not the legal father.

This seems ridicules to me because I'm named on the birth certificate and the house registration as the father.

I hope this makes it more clear that my question is about Thai Law.

Thanks,

Simon

[Mario2008]

Scouse is correct, as uasual. Since the 2 of you were not married the children didn't automaticaly aquired Dutch nationality, unless you recognized the children as yours before they were born.

For children regocnized after the birth the rule is that they can aquire Dutch nationality after 3 years since the recognition.

Regarding your question about Thai law, the statement of the embassy is true: only when the unmarried father is also the person who registers the birth is he recognized as such under Thai law. The fact that you registered them yourself means you recognized the children as yours. Since you did not, there is no proof that you recognized the children.

I can't find a proper link right now, but you could ask Isaan Lawyers, one of the forum sponsors, on the family and children forum, where your question realy belongs.

[unthaime]

Scouse is correct, as uasual. Since the 2 of you were not married the children didn't automaticaly aquired Dutch nationality, unless you recognized the children as yours before they were born.

For children regocnized after the birth the rule is that they can aquire Dutch nationality after 3 years since the recognition.

This is true only after April 2003 and the reason for my question.

Regarding your question about Thai law, the statement of the embassy is true: only when the unmarried father is also the person who registers the birth is he recognized as such under Thai law. The fact that you registered them yourself means you recognized the children as yours. Since you did not, there is no proof that you recognized the children.

My name can be on the birth certificate as the father and they can have my last name with out me recognizing them?

When the birth certificate was made I identified myself as the father this was confirmed by the mother.

I had to sign for this and so did the mother.

Just after there birth we also requested Thai passports and the legal father (me) had to come in person and sign after identification for that to.

Thanks,

Simon

[unthaime]

I can't find a proper link right now, but you could ask Isaan Lawyers, one of the forum sponsors, on the family and children forum, where your question realy belongs.

Should I re post my question on that forum or can somebody move it there for me?

Thanks,

Simon

[Mario2008]

Your name can be on the birtcertificate without you knowing it, don't know about Thailaw if they can have your name without aproval. That might be interesting. Also the passport thing is interesting, but might be a mistake by the passport office.

The rules are clear and require that your name is on the BC and you register yourself. But the law is not everything and there are also some (European) court rulings regarding the recognisition of a child. In deed don't give up to soon.

[Mario2008]

Note that under art. 3 of the Dutch Nationality Law you get Dutch nationality if either your mother or father has Dutch nationality at the time the person is born.

It doesn't say the parents have to be married or the father needs to have recognized the child. It might meen the children already have Dutch nationality, provided you are the biological father and can proof that. Ask a Dutch lawyer about this.

(Recognising a child as yours is not the same as admitting that you are the biological father, it means that you state will be the legal father, whether or not you are the biological father. That might be why there is a difference between aquiring Dutch nationality as to when the child is recognized by the father).

[the scouser]

The Wikipedia article on Dutch nationality states:-

A child born to an unmarried Dutch father and a non-Dutch mother must be acknowledged by the Dutch father before birth, in order for the child to be Dutch at birth. Before 1 April 2003, an acknowledgement could be given after birth.

If accurate, that would mean, one would think, that your being named on your children's birth certificates would be sufficient for them to have acquired Dutch nationality at birth.

Scouse.

[unthaime]

Thanks Mario I appreciate your help!

Note that under art. 3 of the Dutch Nationality Law you get Dutch nationality if either your mother or father has Dutch nationality at the time the person is born.

It doesn't say the parents have to be married or the father needs to have recognized the child. It might meen the children already have Dutch nationality, provided you are the biological father and can proof that. Ask a Dutch lawyer about this.

This only the case if I was married with the mother at the time of birth or if I had acknowledged the child before birth.

(Recognising a child as yours is not the same as admitting that you are the biological father, it means that you state will be the legal father, whether or not you are the biological father. That might be why there is a difference between aquiring Dutch nationality as to when the child is recognized by the father).

I only need to prove my legal status as a father for Dutch law.

[wensiensheng]

I have not had personal experience, but a friend of mine had a child with a Thai lady. They were not married. He was named on the Thai birth certificate as the father. Nevertheless, in order to be "officially" or I suppose "legally" recognised as the father under Thai law, he had to get to court to get that fact recognised. He went through the process because he was worried that the mother would just take the child away and he would not have any legal rights to access etc. I don't think it was a big deal to get the recognition done. More a matter of presenting documents I believe.

Just what I was told for what it's worth.

[unthaime]

The Wikipedia article on Dutch nationality states:-

A child born to an unmarried Dutch father and a non-Dutch mother must be acknowledged by the Dutch father before birth, in order for the child to be Dutch at birth. Before 1 April 2003, an acknowledgement could be given after birth.

If accurate, that would mean, one would think, that your being named on your children's birth certificates would be sufficient for them to have acquired Dutch nationality at birth.

Scouse.

This accurate but the dutch embassy says I did not acknowledge because I'm not the the informant on the Birth certificate.

Dutch Foreign Affairs has also some information in English at this link:

http://www.minbuza.nl/en/welcome/DutchCiti...dge_my_gir.html

Thanks,

Simon

[unthaime]

I have not had personal experience, but a friend of mine had a child with a Thai lady. They were not married. He was named on the Thai birth certificate as the father. Nevertheless, in order to be "officially" or I suppose "legally" recognised as the father under Thai law, he had to get to court to get that fact recognised. He went through the process because he was worried that the mother would just take the child away and he would not have any legal rights to access etc. I don't think it was a big deal to get the recognition done. More a matter of presenting documents I believe.

Just what I was told for what it's worth.

Thanks for your reply.

I'm now legally" recognized as the father under Thai law because I married the mother.

But I'm starting to think I was not legally" recognized as the father under Thai law before the marriage.

Simon

[ThaiLawOnline]

Under Thai law, if a child is born outside a marriage, the father can be on the birth certificate of the child but the father isn't LEGITIMATED.

Article 1547 of the Thai Civil Code states:

"A child born of the parents who are not married to each other is legitimated by the subsequent marriage of the parents, or by registration made on application by the father, or by a judgment of the Court."

It looks like you got married after and got legitimated. However, laws of every country are different and I don't much about THIS PART OF Dutch Law. I would try to contact Robert Spelde, of Siam Expat Law in Phuket. I believe he is a Dutch lawyer.

We had a similar case involving a Canadian. We were able to make a "dead father" (he had an lethal accident and we needed some legal recognitions for the child in order to inherit from his dead father...) recognized under Canadian Laws with a DNA test. Under Canadian laws, the marriage was not a problem.

You really have to check with Dutch laws.

[Mario2008]

There will soon be a change in the Dutch nationality law, I understand the law is alerady aproved but not in effect yet:

http://www.tweedekamer.nl/images/30584%20b...m118-102156.doc.

Also there is an interesting court rulling on this subject:

LJN: BA4885, Gerechtshof Arnhem , 860/2006, just go to this website: www.rechtspraak.nl above right choose LJ and enter BA4885.

Note that in this case the children had an urgent interest in requiring the Dutch nationality. If your children have not, for exemple you want to move to The Netherlands, forget it. Also it might be wise to wait for the law change to come in effect. The legal proceding will probably take a longer time.

Dutch law knows 2 procedures to establish fathership, the recognistion (erkenning) and the paternity action (vaststelling vaderschap). Both don't work in retrospect. You can probably have your children aquire Dutch nationality but not get the government to recognize you as the father from the moment of birth.

[unthaime]

Thanks every body for all the help!

There will soon be a change in the Dutch nationality law, I understand the law is alerady aproved but not in effect yet:

http://www.tweedekamer.nl/images/30584%20b...m118-102156.doc.

Mario thats it!

That new law will solve my problem.

I found confirmation that it is approved and will wait for the new law to come in effect.

Not planning to go back to The Netherlands, just want to get the passports for my childeren.

Simon

[Mario2008]

If it is only about getting Dutch nationality for your children than why can't you get Dutch Nationality for them right now?

They can get Dutch Nationality after 3 years from the date of being recognized by a Dutch national. As indicated by Isaan Lawyers, they were legitimized under Thai law on the day you were married, in Nov. 2003. That would make them elligable to apply for Dutch nationality since november 2006 under art. 6 lid 1 sub c of the Dutch Nationality law.

[unthaime]

If it is only about getting Dutch nationality for your children than why can't you get Dutch Nationality for them right now?

They can get Dutch Nationality after 3 years from the date of being recognized by a Dutch national. As indicated by Isaan Lawyers, they were legitimized under Thai law on the day you were married, in Nov. 2003. That would make them elligable to apply for Dutch nationality since november 2006 under art. 6 lid 1 sub c of the Dutch Nationality law.

Yes, I have to demonstrate that I raised and cared for my children for an uninterrupted period of three years.

Last time I called the embassy they told me I needed a Thai House registration where it shows that I, my wife and children lived on the same address in thailand for the last three years.

The change in the Dutch nationality law will change this requirement for me and there will be no need to jump through hoops.

If you can read dutch I found confirmation of this change here: http://www.buitenlandsepartner.nl/forum/vi...pic.php?t=37085

I also downloaded Staatscourant issue 270 where this change is announced.

Will ask some people in holland to further verify this change and if they can find out when it comes in to effect.

Thanks,

Simon

[Mario2008]

I disagree with the Dutch Embassy that you need to show that you are on the Thai household registration. There are other ways to show family life , or in other words that you live together with your children for more than 3 years. Bills and official letters etc in your name at the childrens addres might be enough.

The law change will soon come into effect, so it might not be worth the trouble to oppose the decision of the embassy.

But if you want to make a principle matter out of it I'm more than happy to assist you. I'm not a lawyer, just a juror, but pretty confident you would win the case.

[unthaime]

I disagree with the Dutch Embassy that you need to show that you are on the Thai household registration. There are other ways to show family life , or in other words that you live together with your children for more than 3 years. Bills and official letters etc in your name at the childrens addres might be enough.

The law change will soon come into effect, so it might not be worth the trouble to oppose the decision of the embassy.

But if you want to make a principle matter out of it I'm more than happy to assist you. I'm not a lawyer, just a juror, but pretty confident you would win the case.

I agree with you and was already preparing the case and was also confident that I would win in the end.

But I always felt that in principle it was wrong that I had to proof this and felt that in principle my children should get the Dutch nationality because there father is Dutch.

With the changes in the law my children get the Dutch nationality for this exact reason and I'm glad I don't have to go that other way that I feel is principle wrong.

I very much appreciate your offer and I'm very thankful for all the help!

If things don't work out I will surly contact you.

Thanks,

Simon

[IMA_FARANG]

The dutch embassy argues that when in Thailand a child is born from unmarried mother and the persons on the birth certificate under number 3 "Father" and 4 "informant" is not the same,the Father named under item 3 on the birth certificate is not the legal father according to Thai law.

Can anybody confirm this to be true or tell me how I can proof them wrong?

Some more background to this question:

My children birth certificate's are made by the hospital were they were born and was included in the service.

My name is under item 3 "Father" but under item 4 is the name of a hospital official.

The children are born in 2000 and 2002 my wife and I where not married at that time.

I always believed I had acknowledged my children under Thai law by there birth certificate and thereby making me the legal father under Thai law.

According to the Dutch embassy this only happened when I Married my wife in November 2003.

This fact is important because before 1 April 2003 a minor foreign child acknowledged by a Dutch citizen when the birth was registered or afterward automatically acquired Dutch nationality according to the rules valid at the time.

Thanks in advance.

Simon

As I understand it they are refusing to acknowledge the fact that you were the father because the person listed as "father" and the person listed as "informant" are not the same?

My (uniformed) understanding would be would be person listed as "father"=father, person listed as "informant" =person who provided information. I don't see why that has to be the same person.

But whatever, it seems to me you may need to make a sworn staement that you are the father, and have it notorized. For an American citizen, this could be done at the U.S. embessy. There is a fee for this (the counsel needs to sign the document, which is what the fee is for). The embessy could also need a sworn statement from your wife as to the fact that you are the father of the chlid. A written statement made in Thai would need to be translated to English, or Dutch in your case, and certified as a valid translation.

I'm not sure if the process is the same in the Netherlands, but the process I described would be valid for the U.S. embessy. I would first go to your embessy and see exactly why they won't or don't want to accept the birth certificate.

Good luck, hope they get it worked out.

P.S.: This demonstrates why it is important to go to your embessy immediately after the birth of your child, and acknowledge/claim that you are the father of the child. Even if not married at the time, if you make a legal statement to your embessy that the child is yours, even if you are not married, you are ahead of the game. They would have to prove that you lied later to take away any benefits of citizenship in your country.