State Of Emergency In Bangkok Lifted

[Los78]

some of the PAD statements seem very close to the things Burke described

Which ones are those?

And what is so totalitarian about PAD?

Appointed governement is totalitarian. Thats what PAD leadership want if you havnt read.

[citizen33]

some of the PAD statements seem very close to the things Burke described

Which ones are those?

And what is so totalitarian about PAD?

They would include the statements which set up a contrast between the in-group and out group, certain ideas about Thai and out-group identity and certain inferences about where the source of present troubles lie. Read Burke if you are interested - or even potted accounts of his work from the web.

I did not directly state that PAD is a totalitarian movement, but I would say that such movements include groups that plan to end democracy and establish rule by an oligarchy. Does PAD plan to do that? I don't know for sure but some of their leaders' statements suggest that it is the case.

[h90]

some of the PAD statements seem very close to the things Burke described

Which ones are those?

And what is so totalitarian about PAD?

Appointed governement is totalitarian. Thats what PAD leadership want if you havnt read.

just that it is not true what you tell as explained earlier......

[Plus]

Hmm, don't you think in- and out-group identity are the most basic, common notions absolutely necessary for any group to exist?

When PAD was originally formed, it attracted people who'd normally won't be seen together, and it was all about purging Thaksin from Thai political system. Even at this point the mass of PAD supporters disagree with many of their day to day decisions, including taking over the GH or new politics. Many don't want to be identified with PAD but still support their original cause. There are still no clear in- out- dividing lines.

Also they don't argue or rally FOR anything, only against one, clearly identified man and his cronies. Even new politics is only a proposal to the society, time after time various PAD leaders said they don't care about the exact outcome - they just want the society to consider it, I suppose they'd agree to any other meaningful political reform.

And even that proposal is clear only in that it is AGAINST money politics, though many tell is it's all about their secret backers trying to retain their power.

I mean, even Chavalit acknowledged that money has taken over the system and the MPs don't do what they are supposed to do. He proposed 50/50 split, but the point is still the same - it's a solution to a particular problem, not an attempt at society engineering ala national socialism or the usual TRT propaganda.

[permanent_disorder]

Interesting how a few characters seem to bump this Nazi rubbish up every so often with an inane comment. I would suggest a study of Asian, SE Asian and maybe more spefically a stuidy of Thai history particularly Thai social and politcal history may do more to explain the current situation rather than try to use some Eurocentric exceptionalism to analyse something that is of a very different nature.

Learning about the country in which one resides is an entirely worthwhile pursuit imho and it may also spare us the the emotive and totally inaccurate and for some distressing spectacles of having to be exposed to old Nazi and anti-semitic propoganda just to try and make some cheap politcal point.

Back to the SoE. Lets hope the events of tonight surrounding the UDD rally do not lead to another one.

i suggest you enlighten us a little bit if you know so much and we know so little..

i read also articles from thai academics who compare the PAD with some of the darker times in the thai history. i quoted them. did you read it?

forget your eurocentric esoteric view of the peaceful buddhism, just look at the thai history. isn't a proPAD apotheosis as we can see it here on the forum a eurocentric ideal good human being?and for sure nazi hate propaganda or PAD "creative political art", both 'cheap' attemps to make political points

if you know so much just bring us a transcription from a typical Somsack Kosaisuck speech. explain me why i should have no worries with figures like Pallop Pinmanee? i described their economical concept with very harsh words. tell me what you know about.

start mr. knowledge instead of just call me stupid.

if you, from your high donkey, want lecture us eurocentric dumbos use at least a socratic method.

share your knowledge or just obey what the most popular PAD slogan demand.

[h90]

Interesting how a few characters seem to bump this Nazi rubbish up every so often with an inane comment. I would suggest a study of Asian, SE Asian and maybe more spefically a stuidy of Thai history particularly Thai social and politcal history may do more to explain the current situation rather than try to use some Eurocentric exceptionalism to analyse something that is of a very different nature.

Learning about the country in which one resides is an entirely worthwhile pursuit imho and it may also spare us the the emotive and totally inaccurate and for some distressing spectacles of having to be exposed to old Nazi and anti-semitic propoganda just to try and make some cheap politcal point.

Back to the SoE. Lets hope the events of tonight surrounding the UDD rally do not lead to another one.

i suggest you enlighten us a little bit if you know so much and we know so little..

i read also articles from thai academics who compare the PAD with some of the darker times in the thai history. i quoted them. did you read it?

forget your eurocentric esoteric view of the peaceful buddhism, just look at the thai history. isn't a proPAD apotheosis as we can see it here on the forum a eurocentric ideal good human being?and for sure nazi hate propaganda or PAD "creative political art", both 'cheap' attemps to make political points

if you know so much just bring us a transcription from a typical Somsack Kosaisuck speech. explain me why i should have no worries with figures like Pallop Pinmanee? i described their economical concept with very harsh words. tell me what you know about.

start mr. knowledge instead of just call me stupid.

if you, from your high donkey, want lecture us eurocentric dumbos use at least a socratic method.

share your knowledge or just obey what the most popular PAD slogan demand.

well the 733 PAD=Nazi posting....isn't that nonsense not getting boring???

Edited September 19, 2008 by h90

[Los78]

Interesting how a few characters seem to bump this Nazi rubbish up every so often with an inane comment. I would suggest a study of Asian, SE Asian and maybe more spefically a stuidy of Thai history particularly Thai social and politcal history may do more to explain the current situation rather than try to use some Eurocentric exceptionalism to analyse something that is of a very different nature.

Learning about the country in which one resides is an entirely worthwhile pursuit imho and it may also spare us the the emotive and totally inaccurate and for some distressing spectacles of having to be exposed to old Nazi and anti-semitic propoganda just to try and make some cheap politcal point.

Back to the SoE. Lets hope the events of tonight surrounding the UDD rally do not lead to another one.

i suggest you enlighten us a little bit if you know so much and we know so little..

i read also articles from thai academics who compare the PAD with some of the darker times in the thai history. i quoted them. did you read it?

forget your eurocentric esoteric view of the peaceful buddhism, just look at the thai history. isn't a proPAD apotheosis as we can see it here on the forum a eurocentric ideal good human being?and for sure nazi hate propaganda or PAD "creative political art", both 'cheap' attemps to make political points

if you know so much just bring us a transcription from a typical Somsack Kosaisuck speech. explain me why i should have no worries with figures like Pallop Pinmanee? i described their economical concept with very harsh words. tell me what you know about.

start mr. knowledge instead of just call me stupid.

if you, from your high donkey, want lecture us eurocentric dumbos use at least a socratic method.

share your knowledge or just obey what the most popular PAD slogan demand.

I think no one can help some of these Pro-PAD sheep. Their only knowledge of Thai politics is what a failed businessman Sondhi and ASS-tv feeds them. Sadly they have fallen for that destructive propaganda machine and dont read any other news except what Sondi and his henchmen have approved.

[Los78]

Interesting how a few characters seem to bump this Nazi rubbish up every so often with an inane comment. I would suggest a study of Asian, SE Asian and maybe more spefically a stuidy of Thai history particularly Thai social and politcal history may do more to explain the current situation rather than try to use some Eurocentric exceptionalism to analyse something that is of a very different nature.

Learning about the country in which one resides is an entirely worthwhile pursuit imho and it may also spare us the the emotive and totally inaccurate and for some distressing spectacles of having to be exposed to old Nazi and anti-semitic propoganda just to try and make some cheap politcal point.

Back to the SoE. Lets hope the events of tonight surrounding the UDD rally do not lead to another one.

i suggest you enlighten us a little bit if you know so much and we know so little..

i read also articles from thai academics who compare the PAD with some of the darker times in the thai history. i quoted them. did you read it?

forget your eurocentric esoteric view of the peaceful buddhism, just look at the thai history. isn't a proPAD apotheosis as we can see it here on the forum a eurocentric ideal good human being?and for sure nazi hate propaganda or PAD "creative political art", both 'cheap' attemps to make political points

if you know so much just bring us a transcription from a typical Somsack Kosaisuck speech. explain me why i should have no worries with figures like Pallop Pinmanee? i described their economical concept with very harsh words. tell me what you know about.

start mr. knowledge instead of just call me stupid.

if you, from your high donkey, want lecture us eurocentric dumbos use at least a socratic method.

share your knowledge or just obey what the most popular PAD slogan demand.

well the 733 PAD=Nazi posting....isn't that nonsense not getting boring???

NOt really I find it intereting seeing the similarities of PAD's rallies and the rise of Nazism in Europe.

[permanent_disorder]

some of the PAD statements seem very close to the things Burke described

Which ones are those?

i think you hear following words before an believe that they are from PAD:

GET OUT, GET OUT, GET OUT.

[h90]

Interesting how a few characters seem to bump this Nazi rubbish up every so often with an inane comment. I would suggest a study of Asian, SE Asian and maybe more spefically a stuidy of Thai history particularly Thai social and politcal history may do more to explain the current situation rather than try to use some Eurocentric exceptionalism to analyse something that is of a very different nature.

Learning about the country in which one resides is an entirely worthwhile pursuit imho and it may also spare us the the emotive and totally inaccurate and for some distressing spectacles of having to be exposed to old Nazi and anti-semitic propoganda just to try and make some cheap politcal point.

Back to the SoE. Lets hope the events of tonight surrounding the UDD rally do not lead to another one.

i suggest you enlighten us a little bit if you know so much and we know so little..

i read also articles from thai academics who compare the PAD with some of the darker times in the thai history. i quoted them. did you read it?

forget your eurocentric esoteric view of the peaceful buddhism, just look at the thai history. isn't a proPAD apotheosis as we can see it here on the forum a eurocentric ideal good human being?and for sure nazi hate propaganda or PAD "creative political art", both 'cheap' attemps to make political points

if you know so much just bring us a transcription from a typical Somsack Kosaisuck speech. explain me why i should have no worries with figures like Pallop Pinmanee? i described their economical concept with very harsh words. tell me what you know about.

start mr. knowledge instead of just call me stupid.

if you, from your high donkey, want lecture us eurocentric dumbos use at least a socratic method.

share your knowledge or just obey what the most popular PAD slogan demand.

well the 733 PAD=Nazi posting....isn't that nonsense not getting boring???

NOt really I find it intereting seeing the similarities of PAD's rallies and the rise of Nazism in Europe.

The similarities with Gandhi or Nelson Mandela are bigger....

[permanent_disorder]

"Do not believe that parliament is our goal. We have shown the enemy our nature from the podiums of our mass meetings and in the enormous demonstrations of our yellow army. We are an extra-parliamentarian movement that for good reasons rejects the faulty constitution and its republican institutions. We oppose a fake democracy that treats the intelligent and the foolish, the industrious and the lazy, in the same way. We see in the present system of majorities and organized irresponsibility the main cause of our steadily increasing miseries.

The broad masses who have expressed themselves in our movement have given a clear and unmistakable statement against Thaksins government of today and for the Kingdom of Thailand of tomorrow. We want a radical break with the domestic, foreign, economic and cultural policies of the past government.

We will march into the marble halls of parliament, bringing with us the revolutionary will of the broad masses from which we came, called by fate and forming fate. We do not want to join this pile of manure. We are coming to shovel it out. We are interested not in the good of ourself, but in the good of the thai people. The government should consider only the interests of the people.

But wherever we are, we will untiringly serve our nations people and its welfare. That is the oath we make in this happy hour that fate has blessed us with after so much sacrifice, effort and bloodshed.

We stand by the people and we fight for Thailand! We want nothing for ourselves, everything for the nation! We will give our full efforts for the good of the community, striving to win back honor and prosperity for the Kingdom. We will stand or fall according to our Nation's fate."

[Plus]

You just made it up, didn't you?

[plachon]

You just made it up, didn't you?

Well, he's failed to provide a reference source, so one might be forgiven to coming to this conclusion.

Also, by juxtaposing the Gandhi image with some presumably PAD guards, he is indulging in fanciful propaganda of the lowest common denominator, something he seems quite a dab hand at. Not the satirical humour of Tony, but just droll, unsophisitcated propaganda.

How about juxaposing an image of Chamlong Srimuang in his sua morhom, eating a simple vegetarian meal espousing peaceful protest next to one of Gandhi PD? Not quite the image of violence you'd like to portray,huh? Or PAD supporters being beaten up in Udon by Toxin-paid drones alongside one of Gandhi supporters being beaten back by British police in colonial India. Go on - I'm sure you can do better than this kindergarten stuff.

[Plus]

Appointed governement is totalitarian.

How so?

Whoever will be doing the appointing or final selection will be severly restricted in his choices and influence.

They can take this selection process straight out of corporate governance world and put it through some ISO process to make sure that it is done strictly by the playbook with no leeway for personal whims. At the moment whoever wins the popular vote in the countryside can come to Bangkok and rewrite the playbook at will, like Surapong and Samak in their recent appointments to monetary and SET boards.

Instead of that nonsense they can have computers tallying up the final score and producing most suitable candidates.

After all it's all about matching people to the positions, which is the weakest link in the current government - complete and utter incompetence on all levels.

[permanent_disorder]

Whoever will be doing the appointing or final selection will be severly restricted in his choices and influence.

They can take this selection process straight out of corporate governance world and put it through some ISO process to make sure that it is done strictly by the playbook with no leeway for personal whims. At the moment whoever wins the popular vote in the countryside can come to Bangkok and rewrite the playbook at will, like Surapong and Samak in their recent appointments to monetary and SET boards.

Instead of that nonsense they can have computers tallying up the final score and producing most suitable candidates.

After all it's all about matching people to the positions, which is the weakest link in the current government - complete and utter incompetence on all levels.

Source? You just made it up, didn't you?

Sondhi Mugabe & The Rattle Gang are complete nuts. You can go home now.

[Plus]

Yes, these are my thoughts, because it's an open ended proposal. It's not completely out of the blue, btw - that's how Thai government does appointing of various bureaucratic bodies, boards and commissions.

They have defined creteria and scoring systems for those in place already.

[hammered]

Interesting to note that on the one hand we have the Somchai-Sonthi negotiations and on the other we have Khwanchai et all threatening to attack the PAD. There seems to be a divide in the PPP in how to address national issues. I sincerely hope the Somchai approach is well intentioned as with every change in politcs there is an opportunity to review relationships and if this involves no more violence and no more SoEs then it must be welcomed.

Of course that Thaksin gets to vet the cabinet is a worry as is the PAD having such a large leadership who may even be out of touch with many supporters adn sympathisers. The positives are the disastrous turn out for the UDD rally last night and that the PAD do actually seem to be preparing a broadly positive approach.

It may well be in the fullness of time that it will all just be analysed as tactical gamesmanship and manouvers and time buying but for now the extreme ideas do not hold sway on either side and that must be welcomed.

[younghusband]

Yes, these are my thoughts, because it's an open ended proposal. It's not completely out of the blue, btw - that's how Thai government does appointing of various bureaucratic bodies, boards and commissions.

They have defined creteria and scoring systems for those in place already.

In principle I think that's okay as long as it is quite clear that elected element will always have the final say.Equally I think there's no insuperable problem if the Senate is partly or even fully appointed, though the latter would not in my view be the right choice.But the Senate must ultimately defer to the Lower House.Democracy is a universal value but there are many variations - some very significant -that will depend on local conditions.Much will depend on the quality of the appointees.If they are seen to be people of high standard who genuinely have the best interesrs of ALL Thai people at heart they will gain respect across the board.If they turn out to be deferential lobby fodder for the status quo their time will be limited.

[hammered]

From MCOT:

PAD ready for talks with new govt -- with conditions

and

The conditions, Gen. Chamlong said, are to bring back ousted, fugitive former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra to face a prison sentence for graft and corruption charges in Thailand, revoke his so-called red diplomatic passport, and that Mr. Somchai must not intervene in judicial process to assist Mr. Thaksin.

Rest of story at: http://enews.mcot.net/view.php?id=6349

It is not beyond the government to launch extradition, revoke the diplomatic passport and state they will not intervene in the courts. These conditions are actually quite mild. Of course not intervene in the judicial process is easy to state but the PAD will also take it to mean no constitutional ammendment while PPP may not, but the language hinted at here makes a short term deal entirely possible.

[h90]

Whoever will be doing the appointing or final selection will be severly restricted in his choices and influence.

They can take this selection process straight out of corporate governance world and put it through some ISO process to make sure that it is done strictly by the playbook with no leeway for personal whims. At the moment whoever wins the popular vote in the countryside can come to Bangkok and rewrite the playbook at will, like Surapong and Samak in their recent appointments to monetary and SET boards.

Instead of that nonsense they can have computers tallying up the final score and producing most suitable candidates.

After all it's all about matching people to the positions, which is the weakest link in the current government - complete and utter incompetence on all levels.

Source? You just made it up, didn't you?

Sondhi Mugabe & The Rattle Gang are complete nuts. You can go home now.

Here you see who the violent gang is:

(from the nation):

Leaders of pro-government demonstrators threaten to lead provincial people to crush PAD

Two leaders of pro-government groups threatened late Friday night to lead 40,000 people from Chiang Rai and Udon Thani to crush the People's Alliance for Democracy-led protesters next month.

Kwanchai Praiphana, leader of pro-government people in Udon Thani, and Uthai Saenkaew, leader of pro-government people in Chiang Rai, made the threat at 10:45 pm during a demonstration held at Sanam Luang by the Democratic Alliance Against Dictatorship.

The two said the PAD must leave the Government House before October 10 or else they would be forced out by the government supporters from the two provinces.

However, only hundreds joined the Sanam Luang rally late Friday night.

The Nation

[Los78]

PAD supporters should dump leaders

By Pravit Rojanaphruk

The Nation

Published on September 20, 2008

People who joined the People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) should abandon their leaders, because the leadership's goal in promoting "New Politics" - wherein 70 per cent of the members of the House of Representatives would be appointed - is anti-democratic, Thammasat University anthropologist Yukti Mukdavijit said yesterday.

Yukti was speaking at a symposium organised at Thammasat by the Santi Prachadhamma group, which was formed recently by academics from several universities to seek a solution to the present political crisis. He said ordinary PAD demonstrators should instead organise themselves and push for genuine democracy and not "conservative" politics that propagated ultra-nationalist, ultra-royalist fervour and promoted the "old political order".

"The end is coming soon for the PAD, but the question is: how can it end without decimating the people's movement along with the PAD?"

The anthropologist said the PAD was actually not a new social movement, but rather an old one seeking to usurp state power and risked eventually becoming the oppressor itself.

He urged PAD followers to seek a long-term revolution and become "post-modern rebels" by paying attention to many disparities, such as ethnicity, gender, age, locale and class.

Thammasat economist Apichat Satitniramai said the PAD leadership and the academics who supported them could no longer claim to be representing democracy, because their ideology and goals were to establish rule by the privileged and philosopher kings.

Apichat said although he believed the Thaksin Shinawatra group bought votes, voters also made decisions based on the fact that the Thai Rak Thai Party and then the People Power Party offered a populist platform of affordable healthcare and cheap loans. Thus, PAD supporters must understand that poor rural voters are not stupid and in fact made "rational choices" when they supported the Thaksin clique.

Another speaker, Ubonrat Siriyuwasak, a former lecturer of mass communication at Chulalongkorn University, said "New Politics" reminded her of the New Order under Indonesia's President Suharto, where the military had a special, dual role.

"It reminds me of a guided democracy as opposed to mass democracy." PAD leader Sondhi Limthongkul recently said in an interview that he wanted the military to come under the monarch and not the government.

Ubonrat condemned "New Politics" as a political ideology in which the political rights of the elite are treated as more valuable than those of ordinary people.

Ubonrat also said the media should ask themselves whether they're currently playing the role of observer, referee or supporter of one of the conflicting parties.

Maybe some of the Pro-PAD supporters on this forum should consider it instead of fighting for a totalarian PAD appointed government in Thailand.

[permanent_disorder]

Source? You just made it up, didn't you?

Sondhi Mugabe & The Rattle Gang are complete nuts. You can go home now.

Here you see who the violent gang is:

...

please bring us a transcription from a typical Somsack Kosaisuck speech. explain me why i should have no worries with figures like Pallop Pinmanee?

i described their economical concept with very harsh words. tell me what you know about.

you know nothing, right?

[animatic]

Well I see that the usual suspects are still hammering

seemingly canned lines and harping on the alledged horrors

of the watchdogs, and give the other side a free pass.

While the cabal in power STILL attempts to loot the treasury

and save their butts from political wastebins.

How can one not think that there is some scripting when words like

apotheosis are combined with not remembering to use the word

'to' in the phrase " explain <> me."

Sorry dude, I can NOT explain you. And when I explain to you,

I get relatively little understanding back.

And don't gripe that I am commenting on your poor english skills

when you use apotheosis in a sentence... that dog don't hunt.

When Sondhi is compared to Mugabe you beggar belief in your rationality.

Thaksin bore more resemblance to Mugabe with his repression of the press,

efforts at silencing of criticism, and violent police actions.

This does not come across as reasoned discourse and debate,

but grossly biased propaganda with an agenda to disrupt the discussion.

Or/and create a false flag image of Thailand's problem politics for the english speaking world.

I don't buy a word of it.

[Plus]

When Sondhi is compared to Mugabe you beggar belief in your rationality.

Thaksin bore more resemblance to Mugabe with his repression of the press,

efforts at silencing of criticism, and violent police actions.

Back in 2001-2003 Mugabe visited Thailand numerous times, there were many investment plans, he even rode a tuk tuk with Thaksin for a photo op.

[permanent_disorder]

animatic, you know nothing about the PAD, right? and you have nothing to say.

better you obey what the most popular PAD slogan demand, those famous "two words".

[sriracha john]

Birds of a feather...

[animatic]

animatic, you know nothing about the PAD, right? and you have nothing to say.

better you obey what the most popular PAD slogan demand, those famous "two words".

I know enough not to believe your continuous chain of unbelievable tracts on the situation.

Your seeming absolute bias and lack of any objectivity, obscures reality most times.

I have posted many things, and 90+% you have not seen fit to address

because apparently you have no LOGICAL responses.

I HAVE seen you quote me several times, partially and out of context,

and then twist my words incorrectly to YOUR choice of meaning.

THAT in my opinion is not debate, but propaganda style obsfucation of the issues.

For me quoting me in such a manner,

and twisting my words to an inverse meaning is a flame.

Seems the moderators think otherwise.

Edited September 21, 2008 by animatic

[hammered]

As the SoE has been lifted for some time and the politcal situation has moved on and this thread seems to be degenerating into personal attacks and irrelevent comments imho maybe it is time to close it

peace

[Jai Dee]

For me quoting me in such a manner,

and twisting my words to an inverse meaning is a flame.

Seems the moderators think otherwise.

If you or any other member feels that he/she is being flamed, please use the report function to bring the matter to the attention of the moderators who will assess the situation and deal with it accordingly.

[Jai Dee]

As the SoE has been lifted for some time and the politcal situation has moved on and this thread seems to be degenerating into personal attacks and irrelevent comments imho maybe it is time to close it

peace

Agreed.

New developments and discussion about the PAD can continue in this thread.

/Closed

Edited September 22, 2008 by Jai Dee
Link added