Non-b Non-resident Visa

[scifi]

...but I could probably visit my consulate in person and obtain the "official" recommendation of my local consulate in writing

I would be amazed if you could get this - keep us updated.

there is nothing there stating that you have to have a business first before you can apply for a work permit

Naturally. But you do need a job offer (i.e. from an existing company, not necessarily your own.) In the Eligibility section of the link you provided:

The work permit will name the employer

You can't name an employer that doesn't exist yet.

I agree that you've probably made your mind up, but no-one can say you haven't done your research And there is nothing wrong with doing all this preparation before you arrive, as you are clearly serious about what you want to do. I would just say, leave a little bit of latitude in your attitude about what does and doesn't 'stand up in court'; spend a bit of time in-country before you make your mind up. Am genuinely interested to hear how it goes, and thanks for sharing all the research.

[digitalchromakey]

FYI - Here are the forms for Work Permit application, downloaded from the Thai Ministry of Employment. The first pages are in Thai, but the rest is in English.

WP2 if you are in Thailand with a non immigrant visa and WP3 if you are outside Thailand/an employer applies on your behalf.

Form_WP2.pdf

Edited September 21, 2008 by digitalchromakey

[karlski]

Wow, I am in the same scenario in terms of working for an internet company. but it's MY internet company. perhaps I should have made it mandatory for me to work in Thailand somewhere in the company rules and gotten the B visa.

-the only other exception being that as a scuba instructor, it would be pretty nice to do that too. but that's clouded things a bit more than helped.

But right now, I am more concerned about long term visa. It's just that the 'work permit' and 'non-b' or 'non-0' were ways to extend my 60 day single entry visa. Now i'm seriously looking at setting up the thai firm.

At least you did enough homework ahead of time to get a type of visa that could last you 6 months and have a chance at extending further, depending on what approach you take, and the real legal requirements a particular country/consulate/immigration authority are enforcing on the day.

But yes, I work on the internet, and from what I hear, 'technically' you have to keep your head down or get the WP. It's why I designated special staff at my company to be able to handle everything except the bank account. And even then, one of them has an ATM card I taped to the bottom of her steel desk she doesn't know about, with a couple pre-signed checks, and a pre-signed power of attorney my lawyer agreed to pre-notarize.

The best laid plans of mice and men, in the land of smiles.

My big question -the numbers given to start the thai company, they look low, almost affordable. Looking in the post for steps 1-5 referenced, but it says 'previous post'. time to dig some more.

[scifi]

Looking in the post for steps 1-5 referenced, but it says 'previous post'. time to dig some more.

Post #20 in this thread:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=2219364

//Edit: added link to referenced post, as post numbers can change if any post should be deleted. -- Maestro

[NightOwl888]

I sounds like you are thinking WAY too hard about this.

The "work" you describe doesn't sound like anyone will figure out that you are "working"

I know of many farang employees that work for large hospitals without work permits because the hospital doesn't want to bother with the money and time of getting them a work permit. I would guess that this is pretty pervasive in LOS.

As for using a service like Siam Legal. You will hear a variety of things about what they do and how they do it. Know this: Me and the Mrs. wanted to stay long term in LOS this year, nothing to do with work or setting up a business.

Contacted Siam Legal, got instructions, sent cash, received paperwork from them and submitted to consul that they specified (located in the US), and 2 weeks later we had our Multiple Entry Non-B visas. We have been here a while, both with Multiple Entry Non-B visas. We have to do a border crossing every 90 days, but that's it. Having been through Thai immigration 4 times so far with our Non-B visas, I can say that it was the right choice. We have had NO PROBLEMS.

Just one thing: after you get your Non-B make sure when you enter Passport Control that immigration knows you have a Non-B visa, and check you stamps before you leave the station. I always do this, and thank goodness I do. Last entry back the immigration officer gave me a 30 day stamp, I saw this and brought it to her attention that I hold a Non-B and she corrected the stamp.

It sounds like you got the Non-B visa before leaving your country, is this correct? I would like to do this too. However, it seems that if I tell immigration I am in Thailand to do business and then I don't apply for a work permit when I get there, this would put me into a very suspicious category.

On the other hand, I could do this and then hire another attorney to help me with the work permit once I am there, which is another option I am considering. I certainly would be better off with this visa if the company I am working for went belly up and I needed to find employment within Thailand. My only fear is that this will be more expensive than what I can afford and then I am stuck in Thailand with no way to legally work.

Sure, there is a very little chance anyone will even care about the work I am doing, but your comment is like saying it is OK to speed because everybody else is. I got a response on another thread I started from a poor fellow who was actually busted for working "under the radar" and had to pay a 100,000 baht bribe. Check out the post by "singto" here.

Thanks for the tip on the immigration stamp. Also, I wasn't thinking there would be an issue with Siam Legal. However, it seems that their help stops at the point of getting the visa and with entry and then I am on my own for the work permit.

[NightOwl888]

FYI - Here are the forms for Work Permit application, downloaded from the Thai Ministry of Employment. The first pages are in Thai, but the rest is in English.

WP2 if you are in Thailand with a non immigrant visa and WP3 if you are outside Thailand/an employer applies on your behalf.

Thanks for these documents - they were helpful to me and I am sure they will be helpful to others in my situation.

My only question is, where is WP1 and is there a WP4, etc? There are "special categories" for visas, it would not surprise me if there are "special categories" for the work permits.

[digitalchromakey]

My only question is, where is WP1 and is there a WP4, etc? There are "special categories" for visas, it would not surprise me if there are "special categories" for the work permits.

WP 1 is application under BOI Rules (Investment Promotion).

WP 5 Is for renewal of permission.

WP 6 Is for a substitute/replacement work permit.

WP 7 Is for a change to a work permit.

WP 8 Is for submission of other papers (new visa, etc) in connection with a WP3 application.

WP 10 Is for cancellation of a work permit.

WP 11 Is For Application for a work permit at a one stop centre (BOI Companies).

WP 12 Is For Application for a work permit and visa at a one stop centre (BOI Companies).

WP 13 Is for a work permit for SE Asia Nationals.

No idea as regards WP 4 and WP 9; perhaps owing to Thai sensibilities there are no forms numbered WP4 or WP9.

[NightOwl888]

...but I could probably visit my consulate in person and obtain the "official" recommendation of my local consulate in writing

I would be amazed if you could get this - keep us updated.

I went down to the Thai consulate today to ask for the official opinion in writing. Paying attention to Thai sensibilities, I wore long pants even though today it was rather hot here in Los Angeles.

I politely explained my situation to the friendly lady at the information booth, however her tune had changed from the one I talked to on the phone on Friday. When I told her what I wanted to do, she still recommended I apply for a 60 day tourist visa. I then asked "Is it legal to do this?" and her reply was "No, it is not legal but many people work on a tourist visa in Thailand because it is a loophole in the law." Based on this new information, I decided not to ask her about putting her recommendation in writing because it had no weight if what she told me to do was in fact illegal by her own admission.

The funny thing is even though I told her I wanted to go to Thailand to do something that wasn't legal, she didn't let me leave without handing me a visa application. As if to say, "Your tea money is welcome here."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Since the Los Angeles address listed on Siam Legal's website is only a few blocks away from the Thai consulate, I decided to also pay them a visit in person. I chatted with them last week and asked them whether the address on their website was correct because I couldn't find information about them on the California state bar website, and they had confirmed it was correct as posted. I tried calling the LA office several times during normal LA business hours, at first I couldn't get through, and eventually I got a call back (based on caller ID I presume). I even tried calling the fax number and it was disconnected. When I talked to the gentlemen from Siam Legal on the phone, he had a very strong accent like he had just arrived here in the US from Thailand.

I confirmed my suspicion based on the above information today:

Siam Legal doesn't actually have an office in Los Angeles, and their L.A. phone numbers are most likely being forwarded to Thailand.

I asked at Ste 6A (the address that is posted on the website) if this were Siam Legal, got a resounding no, and strangely was redirected to the Thai massage parlor next door at Ste 6B. The lady there was very nice, but was not associated with Siam Legal and said I was the 3rd person that showed up looking for them. Although I am sure she is not qualified to dispense legal advice, she recommended that I not worry about whether what I am doing is legal because my chances of getting caught are very slim. While the fact that Siam Legal doesn't have an office at a location that is listed on their website certainly does make them look a little shady, I am not that concerned with whether they actually have (or had) an office in LA provided they give good service otherwise, and at least one poster has recommended their services on this thread.

On a more positive note, Siam Legal did reply to my email in which I asked them to show me the paragraph in Thai law (whether it is in English or not) that states that if I am living in Thailand and working for a company in a foreign country that I won't need a work permit (which is precisely what they have told me). They said they are having their senior lawyer check into this and they will be getting back to me.

While it would be great if they were able to follow through on this promise, my suspicion is that the way the law is written it is much too vague to make such a conclusion, as has been pointed out about many Thai laws here on TV. I will give them a couple of days to see just how this turns out.

[Lite Beer]

That's a great post N.O . Why does nothing in it surprise me?

[ubonjoe]

1. Definition

“Alien” means a natural person who is not of Thai nationality; “ Work ” means to engage in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefits.

From: http://www.doe.go.th/service3_en.aspx

This is what bothers me. If I am working around the house/property dong little chores. IE:Weeding the garden, fixing a water leak, unpluging a drain, painting the house and etc. Helping take care of the village water system pump or doing things around the temple. It means that if somebody was to witness me doing pt or takes a picture and makes a fuss with the police I could be in big trouble.

I am married to a Thai and expected to support her but to get a work permit means a lot of the same hassle as anyone else goes through.

Working on a 90 day non-b for a foreign company is done a lot when somebody comes into the country to install/service equipment and such. I lost out on a job here a few years ago after going through the interview becasue they were at their limit on work permists and they decided to fill the position with somebody from the main office coming in on a 90 day non-b and paying for them to go out every 90 days.

To use it as an option when you are actually living here and working via the internet would be risky. In the cases above the individual has back up from their employer in that they would handle the legals fees and etc. if somebody was to make an issue of it.

Edited September 23, 2008 by ubonjoe

[scifi]

Yes, good post NightOwl; good work following up your leads and thanks for posting the update. I'd say you have a career in investigative journalism waiting. Your dedication to the task in questioning the masseuse about the legal status of foreigners working in Thailand is exemplary

I appreciate that there are posts in support of Siam Legal, but considering what you have exposed about them so far, I would still recommend Sunbelt if you decide to go that route.

They said they are having their senior lawyer check into this and they will be getting back to me.

I hope they do, but all too often this kind of thing is said to get you off the phone or out of the office. They are expecting you to forget you ever asked the question, as surely as they forgot about it when you hung up. Happy to be proved wrong though, as I am sure many of us following this thread would like to know what they can come up with.

[NightOwl888]

Yes, good post NightOwl; good work following up your leads and thanks for posting the update. I'd say you have a career in investigative journalism waiting. Your dedication to the task in questioning the masseuse about the legal status of foreigners working in Thailand is exemplary

I appreciate that there are posts in support of Siam Legal, but considering what you have exposed about them so far, I would still recommend Sunbelt if you decide to go that route.

Well, I guess you have to be an investigative journalist to work in corporate IT. If you don't get to the bottom of the situation and figure out who to blame, the blame always lands on you.

For whatever reason, the masseuse wanted me to explain the whole visa situation and she jumped on the phone to call some other people to ask their advice. The session ended with her handing me a flyer for a tour of Bangkok and Pattaya with round trip flight and hotel included. Every Thai is a travel agent.

To be fair, there was an empty space in the front of Ste 6A that may have been Siam Legal's location at one point. It is just that last week I had confirmed that the address was correct with one of their employees and this week it is not there. It wouldn't surprise me if the address in London doesn't pan out either.

They said they are having their senior lawyer check into this and they will be getting back to me.

I hope they do, but all too often this kind of thing is said to get you off the phone or out of the office. They are expecting you to forget you ever asked the question, as surely as they forgot about it when you hung up. Happy to be proved wrong though, as I am sure many of us following this thread would like to know what they can come up with.

Not so sure about that one - this is the second email I have recieved from them and they have obviously been tracking my whole support incident pretty well. After I called them and I chatted with them the second time, they were able to link my phone call to LA and chat session together in a follow up email (which immediately made me suspect the "LA" office was in Thailand).

Sunbelt Asia hasn't been as good at following up as Siam Legal. When I was first told I would be contacted by their legal advisor, I didn't get a response for 4 days and had to send them an email to get a response. Their reply looked pretty stock - they just told me how I could begin the visa process, with no help on the work permit. They only said something like the email was caught in their spam filter, which was why they didn't reply sooner. I have never heard of outgoing email getting caught in a spam filter.

Neither of them have given me much information about the work permit process or how it will be handled. I suspect they get you to commit to the trip to Thailand first, and then lay on the bad news about setting up a business with 2 million baht (or working illegally) after you arrive. Sunbelt Asia isn't telling me I don't need one, but they aren't telling me any more than it requires a Non-Immigrant visa.

I am almost convinced that I will only be bringing my laptop with me to play solitare since I won't be able to work while in Thailand . But then, according to the Thai definition of "work" I could be busted for playing solitare without a work permit if I think about which card to play too hard. Amazing Thailand.

[scifi]

Yes, one thing about Sunbelt is that their email server can be unpredictable. I agree it is difficult to make decisions when you feel you are not getting the complete picture. I have found that information is frequently not offered (not just Sunbelt), even though it might be relevant to your situation. I don't think there is an ulterior motive, just a different business environment. Usually I have to second-guess situations and continually ask questions. That's fine, as long as you know what the questions are.

[scifi]

Just to clarify NightOwl, I appreciate that Sunbelt's email excuse wouldn't wash with you - I would think the same as you if I were a prospective new customer: not a technical problem, just inefficient. That is fair enough. I wont try and persuade you any more

As for not getting information about applying for a WP: again, I don't think there is an ulterior motive. They probably just can't see a reason to go into details. Of course, in your situation, it is important for you to know, so this is just one issue where you will have to push them. They will also need to know a bit more info, as the process could be different depending on whether you are setting up your own business (in which case you or your legal representative would do the paperwork) or whether you will be getting a WP through a third party business (in which case maybe that business would have to provide a lot of the paperwork).

Yes, there is usually something to amaze every day here Hope you enjoy it!

[chameleon1977]

I am also looking to do that same as NigthOwl and indeed he posted on a thread I started many times too.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Non-Visa-Wor...72#entry2216872

I have also done extensive research in to this subject as I don't plan to just move me, but a wife, two kids and one on the way.

I don't feel I can offer any further information but simply clarify further what others have written here. Having done the research I would say it's impossible to work legally in Thailand this way without starting a company and getting a WP. I spoke to the Thai embassy in London a few days ago and after chatting with them a while I posed that very question to them. "So from what you're saying, it is impossible for me to work legally in Thailand without starting a company which requires a minimum of £16000 capital investment (1 Million Thai Bhat)?" Answer "Yes" The lady went on to suggest that I could get a Non Immigrant Type O visa based on my marriage. I said "but I couldn't work legally on that could I" and I got a tentative "no". Basically she was half suggesting I should just bl##dy do it illegally anyway. The one positive I gleaned from the conversation was that she said I could get a Non Imm Type B visa with a letter from my Employer and this would give me three months in Thailand legally, if I got a work permit when I got there. So for three months you could be legal. I'm guessing a border run after the three months might not be too hard to achieve to double this but it's still all a little messy and uncertain.

I also spoke to Sunbelt about this. They pretty much said the same thing and gave me a contact number for one of their specialists. I called this specialist and he advised me to go to Thailand on a Type O visa and don't bother with the work permit. That's Sunbelts specialist advise! There's really no winning this legal working business, it's almost like Thai law is encouraging you to do it illegally.

Also, out of interest, I have done this before for a previous company I worked for for seven months. I went to Thailand on a Tourist visa and had no idea then that it was illegal to work remotely as I was doing. I believe as proof of fund I had a letter from my employer saying I would be paid holiday pay whilst in Thailand. I even told everyone what I was doing when I was there. No-one really cared, even though I was earning more in one month than they were in a year. ß I think that's the Thai attitude I love because in England if someone found out you were earning shed loads compared to them, they would be LOOKING for a way to stuff you up.

To conclude I think I'll end up going out illegally in the most legal fashion possible. LOL, as there simply doesn't appear to be another way unless you're flush with cash or an Ambassador. I will quietly research starting a business through my wife during the first three months and hopefully make everything legal within a year. That's my plan so far. If I do find out anymore on the positive side of things I will be sure to let everyone know. Good luck all.

Edited September 26, 2008 by chameleon1977

[Soutpeel]

starting a company which requires a minimum of £16000 capital investment (1 Million Thai Bhat)?"

You dont actually need the THB 1.0 mil in (or THB 2.0mil for that matter) cash to start a company in Thailand, you need THB 1.0mil capitalisation in the company, not the same thing as captial investment, you need to do a little more research on business set up on Thailand, and you will see the actual "cash" portion will be very small...

In your case with a wife and two kids coming to Thailand, I would be very careful what you choose to do and get legal as soon as you can.

[astral]

Chameleon sums it up quite well.

You can exist on a Non Imm O visa (multi-entry) if your work is low key and not visible.

If your work is visible, then sooner or later someone is going to check up on you

and want to see a work permit, and evidence of tax payment.

If you cannot produce these then you risk arrest, and deportation.

If you are married life is little easier as you can send the little lady out to work

and put your feet up. As long as she earns 40K a month you will get your 12 month extension.

[chameleon1977]

starting a company which requires a minimum of £16000 capital investment (1 Million Thai Bhat)?"

You dont actually need the THB 1.0 mil in (or THB 2.0mil for that matter) cash to start a company in Thailand, you need THB 1.0mil capitalisation in the company, not the same thing as captial investment, you need to do a little more research on business set up on Thailand, and you will see the actual "cash" portion will be very small...

In your case with a wife and two kids coming to Thailand, I would be very careful what you choose to do and get legal as soon as you can.

Thanks for this reply. It's given me something else to research and jogged my memory of someone else saying something similar to me…. So Capital can be intellectual property and also assets such computers, desks and offices etc. OK, I have small understanding now but as I'm starting a fresh there this could still be tricky. Having said that, in Thailand being that Thailand is as it is I could probably just pay someone a few thousand Baht to set it all up for me.

If it doesn't cost huge amounts of money to start a company then I'll most certainly do it that way as my ultimate goal is to start a company there anyway. I am later planning to employ some Thai bright sparks and hopefully get them to do some development for me.....oh dear, just writing that, I can see what's coming. You can't do that without this and that and this and so forth.

By the end of this we will ALL be able to start businesses! giving advise on Visas, Thai Law, Work Permits, Employment, Thai Companies and how to consume copious amounts of Chang Beer in one sitting!

Edited September 26, 2008 by chameleon1977

[Soutpeel]

...So Capital can be intellectual property and also assets such computers, desks and offices etc. ...

Your correct, intellectual property etc can all count towards your captialisation....you sound like you want to start a legitmate company up and employ people so this should make things easier for you in the long run and yes you can pay someone a few thousand baht (will be a bit more than a few thousand) to set things up for you...

PS...dont need advice on how to consume copious amounts of Chang, manage that one quite well on my own...

[simon43]

Also, you don't have to work for a limited company in order to get a Work Permit. The cheapest route (but one that offers no limited liability for the business owner), is to simply work for a Thai sole-trader business. This can be one that is owned by your wife or any other Thai person. It costs about 1,500 baht to register a legal, sole-trader business in Thailand. If your wife is the owner of this business, then you can get a WP to work in the business provided that she employees 2 Thai staff. If you are not married to the owner, then they must employ 4 Thai staff.

So, that's a very easy and cheap way to get legel as regards working. The downside is that you cannot get a 1-year visa extension based upon this employment. (Such visa extensions are only available for working for a register limited liability business). If you are married, then you can get 1-year visa extensions based upon your marriage to a Thai (non O), AND having a joint monthly income of 40,000 baht. If you are not married, then you will need to get a 12-month, non-immigrant B visa and do visa runs every 90 days.

Simon

[ubonjoe]

Great post simon43.

That's an option I have been researching. It also solves the paying tax on income question because you can get a tax payment history for a PR and also use it to get an extension of a non-o.

The work permit side is still a question for me becasue in my line of work it could be short term contract work at various locations. I guess if you started the business as a conultancy that might work for me.

I think it would still require hiring a lawyer to sort everything out.

Thanks

[Soutpeel]

Also, you don't have to work for a limited company in order to get a Work Permit. The cheapest route (but one that offers no limited liability for the business owner), is to simply work for a Thai sole-trader business. This can be one that is owned by your wife or any other Thai person. It costs about 1,500 baht to register a legal, sole-trader business in Thailand. If your wife is the owner of this business, then you can get a WP to work in the business provided that she employees 2 Thai staff. If you are not married to the owner, then they must employ 4 Thai staff.

So, that's a very easy and cheap way to get legel as regards working. The downside is that you cannot get a 1-year visa extension based upon this employment. (Such visa extensions are only available for working for a register limited liability business). If you are married, then you can get 1-year visa extensions based upon your marriage to a Thai (non O), AND having a joint monthly income of 40,000 baht. If you are not married, then you will need to get a 12-month, non-immigrant B visa and do visa runs every 90 days.

Simon

Simon, are these the only restrictions on the sole-trader route ? was always under the impression It could be done, but in practice its was quite difficult going this route, understand the differences between a Ltd company and sole-trader as regards liability already, but interested to know why the legal firms always suggest forming a Ltd company, or is it just a case of more money for them setting up a Ltd co

[ubonjoe]

Simon, are these the only restrictions on the sole-trader route ? was always under the impression It could be done, but in practice its was quite difficult going this route, understand the differences between a Ltd company and sole-trader as regards liability already, but interested to know why the legal firms always suggest forming a Ltd company, or is it just a case of more money for them setting up a Ltd co

I agree the money factor plays in to it. But remember most of the people they deal with are people wanting a work permit in order to get a one year extension.

I would think that in the case of being married to a Thai and already having the one year extension you could find a lawyer that has experience in setting up a business for Thai's and get it done plus save some money. After that I would think the WP process could be pretty straight forward.

[jfchandler]

To the OP, I've been there and gone down these roads myself...as a former Los Angeles resident.

Some simple things to understand here....

Basically, you cannot get a B visa from the Thai consulate in L.A. Don't even bother talking to them.

However, with sponsorship from the appropriate consulting firm here in Thailand, like some of those you have already talked to, you can easily get a one-year B visa from almost any of the "honorary" Thai consulates that are spread around the U.S. Don't even need to go there physically, just complete all your paperwork and supporting documents, as the consultant folks will guide, and send it express mail with your passport to the honorary consulate, and you'll get your passport/visa stamp back within a week or so.

What you're asking for is a multiple entry, non-immigrant B (business) visa that will be valid from one year of issue. It will require you to do visa runs outside Thailand, once you arrive here, every 90 days, during the duration of your visa. You can figure those one-day bus trips to Cambodia will cost you about 2000 baht per. The Thai govt. fee for the mult entry application is $175, plus whatever you pay to your consulting firm. Once you get the B visa, you can do another visa run just before the one-year expires to gain another 90 days...yielding a total of 15 months stay based on your original one-year visa.

On your very first arrival to Thailand, you don't need a B visa. You can come here up to 90 days per 6 month period on visa exempt entries, and/or can apply for tourist visas from either regular or honorary Thai consulates in the U.S. When I first arrived, I simply came on visa exempt entries and used that time to consult in person in BKK with the appropriate folks, before going back to the U.S. do prepare my actual move and finish the details about applying for the B visa (by that time knowing I had a 100% certain route that would meet all my needs). You do, however, need to apply for the B visa while in the U.S. You cannot apply for that while you are staying in Thailand.

You also don't want to apply for the B visa too far in advance before your actual move, because once they issue it, the validity time will start running.

And, about the #6 item mentioned far above, I've never heard of any notion of being able to qualify for a work permit solely on the basis of having been issued a B visa. I too in the early early going had chatted online with the Siam Legal folks in Las Vegas, and ultimately found their guidance to be not always accurate. But, I know people here in Bangkok who have had very good experiences dealing with their BKK staff.