PAD, Democracy and Labour Unions

[clausewitz]

Mr Sonti Limtongkul's Manager media group promoting violence against a young student activist and a Chairwoman of a workers union

"Over 130 trade unionists, social activists, students and academics have put their names to an open letter condemning the behaviour of The Manager media group.

Those signing the letter include many academics at Chulalongkorn and Thammasart Universities, including the Dean of the faculty of Political Science at Chulalongkorn University. Former Senator Jon Ungpakorn and Rawadee Prasertcharoensuk from the N.G.O. Coordinating Committee, Professor Niti Eawsriwong, Textile trade union leaders, worker activists and an academic from the Midnight University are among the signatures.

The letter is in response to the actions of Mr Sonti Limtongkul's Manager group in promoting violence against a young student activist Chotisak Oonsung, who is being accused of lèse majesté because he refused to stand up for the King's Anthem at the cinema. Both Manager group websites and its radio station, Metro Life, have encouraged Ultra-Rightwing Royalists to attack Mr Chotisak. Ms Jitra Kotchadej, Chairwoman of the Triumph workers union has also been made a target for violence by The Manager media. Ms Jitra was singled out because she wore a T-shirt supporting the right to different views in society, including not standing up at the cinema. Both Mr Chotisak and Ms Jitra's photographs and home addresses were published alongside urges to attack them.

The Manager media also encouraged people to attack and break up a meeting on Human Rights at Thammasart University recently.

Those signing the open letter compare the behaviour of The Manager with the past behaviour of Rightwing media such as Dao Sayam newspaper and the Tank Corps radio station in inciting violence that led to the 6th October 1976 blood bath.

The letter calls on people to boycott The Manager media group for abusing basic human rights. The letter also calls on P.A.D. leaders Somsak Kosaisuk, Pipop Thongchai and Somkiat Pongpaiboon to come out and officially condemn The Manager. "

http://www.prachatai.com/english/news.php?id=642

And of course PAD arms its followers while all the while comparing themselves with Gandhi. How do they have the audacity to chant Ahimsa (non-harm). For the cult followers though, they are paragons of virtue.

[PhilHarries]

I have often questioned whether democracy is the right form of government for Thailand and perhaps a kind of benign dictatorship would be the best. This is pretty well what PAD are proposing but in this one has to ask who is to appoint the 70% or whatever and what would their term of office be? Even so such a government should only be considered transitional until the electorate can be considered educated or informed enough to make the choices. This would mean that the government, through education and dissemination of information, would be working for it's own demise. I don't see any Thai politician willing to give up his place at the dining table anytime this millenium. But even if, by some minor miracle, the entire population could be sufficiently educated there still has to be the peasant class to grow the rice and for whom 500 Baht is more important than whatever gasbag is their elected representative.

Also it's a bit disturbing that the author seems to think democracy can only be achieved by way of a fight. But all along it seems the PAD have been spoiling for a fight, maybe they see bloodshed as a way of achieving international approval.

[permanent_disorder]

I find it more worrying than you. Talk to the average PAD cultist and these ideas are repeated. PAD members seem to think Thailand has to go down a bloody path of revolution(the writer mentions French revolution ) and then after that it will all be fine- with PAD immortalized as the saviours of the country, and PAD protesters recognized and given positions of power.

Not hard to see why they are so excited. They are in fact given diplomas(ok have to pay 100baht) saying they are official PAD protesters, and promised special status from the PAD stage. Then the AEC members(who bring charges to the surpreme against Thasin) included PAD key members.

you are right, actually it is something to be worried. the PAD cult is the new fad and they are so exciteded about. and it's quite a strange cult for my western mind.

because the PAD cult got compared with gandhi, mugabe, mandela,communits, nazis and whatever i just take a few of their propaganda images and did compare them with propaganda images of an other movement that had enough from the politics in parliament.

make "fun" of the opponent:

and dehumanising is a nazi trait. they called the others subhuman. the claimed enemy was the jew. the didn't invent antisemitism, but they make to a program of their "new way". the jews betrayed the german nation, steal the money. all the antsemitism we have until today. the unusual rich, foreign connections - the bolshevik from russia, a sub human race. rabbis celebrating black mess and drinking children blood. all bad elements bribed by Jewish money.

the hate object of the PAD cult is thaksin, he betrayed the nation, steal from the people, sell out the country to signapore, black magic rituals with khmer wizzard to damage thailand. and he buy everything, the voters, the MP, all proxies and so on. you know the record. propaganda with envy on wealth and also nationalistic rhetoric. hate speech, i quoted the square face song, samak got called the dog, pid nose dog mouth. all bad elements bribed by Thaksin money.

and there is the "protest art", that on of the first things i got aware off and found very odd. the thaksin hitlers of course and others reminds me on anti semitic cartoons of the nazis. they used them as propaganda, years before '33 and years before the start to kill them. Goebbels: "it was often easier to express Nazi ideas in a political cartoon than with the written word"". in the nazi mag Der Stürmer you could found those drawings. your typical sterotyp. the jewish docter, the attorneys, the commercial jew, the conspiration jew, the jew as Untermensch, a inferior race. you have cartoons like that until today, widley spread in the web on hate pages.

let's have a look at few pictures. flickr is a good source and this a good collection http://flickr.com/photos/11401580@N03/sets...57607100909426/

in PAD propaganda iconography is hitlerthaksin always the money jew and samak the Untermensch.

lame attempt, a recyled TRT placard, early pre coup times. the moustache dosn't really look like a hitler moustache. more like a dirty sanchez, add a little bit dirty sexual connotation is cult. and bloodsucker devil teeth. bloodsucker devil you. you wannabe saddam, grow a really moustache. GET OUT!

wow, that is a little bit better, thaksin the hitler and puppet player, holds his helldog on a string. samaks facial features got kindly little bit changed. original, creative or mass produced? i have seen it before:

click pic for source. the first a german funny mag of WWII. the old conspiracy theory.worldleaders marionettes of the jews. the marionette idea but probably beaten to death by tausends of witty caricaturist. and the funny thai version just a copy of a copy of a copy. somebody see thaksin on movie poster pics? copies too. but okay a Hakenkreuz swastika added to confuse the hindus and falung gong fellowers. 卐 is always good to bring some spice& creativity in politics.

thaksin as crossdressing hitler or crossdressing thaksin as hitler? or gender confused thaksin as ilse koch? even without the moustache, no idea. is that homophob? what the message, thaksin not man enough only hag. isn't that woman discrimination, or ladyboy discrimination? what does the thai LGBT community think of it?

an educational poster of the pre coup time. thaksin sit on a moneybag and betray the nation, sell out the country, give a few coins to the right, poor blue shirt farmer people, but look left side, Sondhi & The Mob is coming brave and law-abiding tax payer. see, also a kid, happy. the good people. no idea what the dogs are starting to do.

click pic for source. Money Is The God Of The Jews: "The God of the Jews is money. To earn money, he commits the greatest crimes. He will not rest until he can sit on a huge money sack, until he has become the king of money." he sits in front of the Börse/stock exchange. Finanzjuden, commercial jew most hated by nazi. they shout against capitalism and imperialism, same as the left wings communists. the moneybag jew became rich without honest work, only interest, usurious interest with money lending. Goebbels: Why Are We Socialists?

2006 PADcult stage. thaksin, the octopus have everything in his hands. the country assets, parliment, TV, satellite... and that beast eats the Kingdom. but people fighting him. Bang, Bang, Kick. Juden raus, jewsthaksin get out. Jawohl.

click pic for source: the jewish octopus, or jewish monster try to take over the world is a often used motif. 2nd pic Title: "The Economy and Jewry: This issue accuses Jews of every manner of economic misdeed. The cartoon is titled "Demon Money." A Jewish monster, engraved with the Star of David and the symbols for the American dollar and British pound has its claws on the planet.. but not only the nazis had used the octopus in propaganda, an other earlier example, that could see in close relation would be the anti-trust litigation against Standard Oil 100 years ago, the standard oil octopus.

the clenched hand we can see on a NSDAP poster for the 1929 state election in saxony. in english: end corruption / vote for nationalsocialists. you see against corruption, like the "good people". easy.

now we are coming to really dehumanising pics, seen of samak in the area of news politics, get even more ugly thaksin=hitler and jew was kindergarten, but samak is the devil dog with pig nose from hel_l government.

there are many more similar pics, i don't want post more and also not comment them. just ask yourself, how many racial stereotypes and insults you can find? and is that the way you should act as the "good people" movement?

click on pic for source. the last one is from a children's book The Father of the Jews is the Devil

disclaimer:

enough for pics now, and keep in mind all that is not a conclusive proof of sondhi & PAD Mob = Hitler & whatever. it's about the act of dehumanising of opponents in visual propaganda material.

i see it only as an approach, rudiment. much more material to collect, like english transcription of PAD speeches and would welcome any similar work that compare the PAD with Gandhi or with the women mass demonstrations in the 1970/2 anti-salvador allende movement.

if you follow this link http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/pre1933.htm you go to a German Propaganda Archive, also focused on Nazi propaganda during what they called the Kampfzeit, the years when the party was fighting for political power (1919-1933)

you can find translation of goebbels essays and speeches. is good to read and do a study of sources, instead just read a book or watch history channel. goebbels was ~ 25-30 years all that time. the movement was a new and fresh movement. public speeches or road shows in the nazi style nobody have ever done this way before. hitler took acting classes for the perfect show, the radio was a the new mass media, like the internet today. radio became the medium of nazi propaganda and we can all be lucky that they didn't had TV yet.

"We do not enter parliament to use parliamentary methods. We know that the fate of peoples is determined by personalities, never by parliamentary majorities. The essence of parliamentary democracy is the majority, which destroys personal responsibility and glorifies the masses. A few dozen rogues and crooks run things behind the scenes. Aristocracy depends on accomplishment, the rule of the most able, and the subordination of the less capable to the will of the leadership. Any form of government — no matter how democratic or aristocratic it may outwardly appear — rests on compulsion. The difference is only whether the compulsion is a blessing or a curse for the community.

What we demand is new, decisive, and radical, revolutionary in the truest sense of the word. That has nothing to do with rioting and barricades. It may be that that happens here or there. But it is not an inherent part of the process. Revolutions are spiritual acts. They appear first in people, then in politics and the economy. New people form new structures. The transformation we want is first of all spiritual; that will necessarily change the way things are.

This revolutionary act is beginning to be visible in us. The result is a new type of person visible to the knowing eye: the New Politics. Consistent with his spiritual attitude, the New Politics makes uncompromising demands in politics. There is no if and when for him, only an either — or."

[Samuian]

that article is Kitsch and a complete joke.

and his main point is, you falang, you no thai, you no understand.

You try really hard to add all the honors to your nick, however it's your opinion, as everyone else is free to have an opinion and express it - and simply because of expressing it, it's not necessarily the universal truth!

But this doesn't change the value of right and wrong, of false and true - and so even you and others don't like it, is the PAD free to air their opinion!

And that: "Thai'ishness" of this situation, is exactly what he tried to express in this article, why not, let 'em work it out their way - I am certain they will!

The days of "Taxinomics" are counted, if not over for good and for this, whatever the PAD might be labeled, they have done the Nation a great, great favor and shown their devotion to the country and it's people, they are "out there" for all their fellow country men, for those who "don't or can't", even for those who didn't care, or didn't know, for those who did make this all possible, who sold their vote, or simply gave it away - for a promise!

After all, they could be home and drawing up plans how to help to loot Thailand - that what "Taxinomics" and it's Cronies, Supporters ans Sponsors are all about ' isn't it?

Free ride's are over!

Edited September 22, 2008 by Samuian

[Jai Dee]

Follow this link to read the opinion (and readers replies) from Voranai Vanijaka in the Bangkok Post.

But follow it quickly if you're interested... link rot will render it useless within a few days.

[camerata]

Regarding PAD's demagoguery, imagery and talk of opponents "selling the nation," that fact is that PAD (like Chamlong's Phalang Dharma party) has little support outside Bangkok, so they have to play the nationalism card in an attempt to appeal to the rural poor.

[Bangyai]

Pad: bulldog on a leash or another nail in democracy's coffin

Published on July 21, 2008

Since it was formed in February 2006, and especially since it was revived in May of this year, the People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD), has become a distinctive force on the political landscape.

Formally, the PAD is simply an alliance of five orators. But as a political phenomenon, the PAD is also what they are saying, how they are saying it, what visual messages they convey, and who is supporting them.

The movement's main stated aim is to overthrow the current government. Normally any movement that professed this aim would be labelled dangerous, even revolutionary, and be strongly handled by the authorities. Strangely that is not happening. Probably that is because we know its true aim is to obstruct Thaksin's overt return to politics.

The movement's longer-term aim is to undermine the central principles of electoral democracy, namely the sovereignty of the people, and the selection of a parliament by the system of one-man, one-vote. The PAD leaders claim that the electorate cannot be trusted with the franchise because the mass of rural people are uneducated and corrupt. They want the elected portion of the lower house reduced to a minority (perhaps 30 per cent), and the remainder filled partly by "retired officials and important people" and partly by ordinary people and workers, selected by appointment. Since the logic of the PAD's proposal is to disenfranchise the rural poor, this new system is likely to favour the rich, the urban, and the higher educated.

In addition, the PAD wants the military to have a permanent role of political oversight. The military would be removed from political control (by making the defence ministry independent of the Cabinet), and granted the right to intervene in politics to check corruption and to protect the monarchy and national sovereignty.

The PAD seems against the freedom of expression, and in favour of the use of abuse and intimidation to limit the freedom of expression. This conclusion is based on the way PAD orators treat academics, actors or other public figures who disagree with its views. This tactic seems to have been quite successful. Some critics have apologised. The press has been generally rather uncritical of PAD's views and activities.

The PAD makes use of military and martial symbolism. Some of the leaders like to wear brown shirts and black shirts that resemble military and paramilitary uniforms. The headbands worn by leaders and followers recall the outfits of traditional warriors, samurai, and jungle fighters. The oversized neckscarf comes from the scouts, village scouts, and jungle fighters. It is not Chamlong's rural-ascetic look but this barracks-chic that distinguishes the movement. Among the supporters, yellow flags, headbands, T-shirts, and caps combine to give the impression of commonality and conformity which is the role of uniforms.

PAD promotes a visceral nationalism reminiscent of the early Phibun era. The nation is a body that is being physically ripped by its enemies (internal and external), causing pain to the citizens, who must rise up in the nation's defence.

The PAD's agitational practice suggests a high degree of organisation, strong financing, access to technology, and skill with sophisticated techniques. The equipment for staging and broadcasting the PAD's message requires high capital cost and running expenses. The crowds are well organised and provisioned. The programming shows strategic planning to sustain support and interest with relatively little novelty. The PAD seems skilled in the techniques and rituals of litigation. In short, this is not a few people gathered at a street corner with a soap box.

Analysing the PAD's audience on the streets and in front of television screens is difficult. There are only stray interviews, plus pictures. Perhaps the single word that emerges from this impressionistic data is "respectable". The crowds are generally smartly dressed. The age profile is quite high, though there are also many families in attendance (and the TV audience may be significantly younger). Head-counting from press photos shows a slight preponderance of women over men. From the few on-site interviews available, the crowds include retirees, public servants, small business people, and senior executives from modern firms. There seem to be relatively few manual workers.

The PAD is clearly well connected to other institutions. One of its leaders is a Democrat MP. Other Democrats have spoken from its stages. So too have academics from some of Bangkok's major universities. A serving general has taken the PAD stage in his full uniform. Other military figures, including General Saprang Kalayanamitra, have been seen backstage and are open in their support.

The PAD seems to be protected, perhaps by friends in important places, but also by virtue of its widespread urban support. No other Bangkok protest has suffered so little harassment. When the prime minister angrily threatened to clear PAD off the streets, the security forces refused to cooperate and the prime minister had to back down. When PAD set up a permanent blockade of roads, the police stood aside and public-opinion surveys were surprisingly lenient over the disruption to traffic. When the protest moved to Government House, the police resistance looked like a token showing designed to fail. This apparent immunity gives weight to PAD's message.

The PAD is flirting with the old agent provocateur's technique of placing its own crudely armed gangs in places where they will be attacked by enemies. This creates violent incidents, apparently initiated by their opponents, though in truth a result of the inherent violence of the PAD itself.

In short, PAD is an anti-democratic movement, supported by high investment and shadowy protection, that exploits the fears of the privileged and a deliberately anti-rational nationalism, and flirts with militarism and violence.

Is PAD a bulldog, let out on a leash for a specific purpose, that will be chained up when the threat from thieves has passed? Or is it another step in the destruction of democracy begun by Thaksin, continued by the coup-makers, and now plunging ahead on the momentum?

Source: http://nationmultimedia.com/2008/07/21/opi...on_30078561.php

Good post, however the description of the crowds seems to come from the early days of the illegal occupation. There was a programme on Channel 9 last week , Kon kon kon, that did a special on the crowds at the PAD site. Kon kon kon usually runs programmes about poor or handicapped individuals struggling against the odds. It went to the PAD site because apparently many of Bangkoks homeless ( usually around 30,000 sleeping rough but figure varies with season and economic climate ) have been attracted there by the free facilities, food, clothing ( yellow ) shelter , medical check ups etc. Many of the poor interviewed didn't have a clue who the PAD or the govournment were and did'nt give a hoot. A freebie is a freebie to them. Little kids were shown who could mumble a few rota learned slogans ( na rak ) and lots of vendors who are hoping the protest becomes a permanent feature as ,on account of the many free pitches , they are making more money than usual, One noodle seller who did understand who the PAD were and disliked them nonetheless said it was a good thing for him as he had doubled his takings.

I thought it ironic that the very people who PAD want to disenfranchise are the very ones making up the bulk of the ' in for the long haul ' PAD mob.

[steveromagnino]

Good post, however the description of the crowds seems to come from the early days of the illegal occupation.

There was a programme on Channel 9 last week , Kon kon kon, that did a special on the crowds at the PAD site. Kon kon kon usually runs programmes about poor or handicapped individuals struggling against the odds. It went to the PAD site because apparently many of Bangkoks homeless ( usually around 30,000 sleeping rough but figure varies with season and economic climate ) have been attracted there by the free facilities, food, clothing ( yellow ) shelter , medical check ups etc. Many of the poor interviewed didn't have a clue who the PAD or the govournment were and did'nt give a hoot. A freebie is a freebie to them. Little kids were shown who could mumble a few rota learned slogans ( na rak ) and lots of vendors who are hoping the protest becomes a permanent feature as ,on account of the many free pitches , they are making more money than usual, One noodle seller who did understand who the PAD were and disliked them nonetheless said it was a good thing for him as he had doubled his takings.

I thought it ironic that the very people who PAD want to disenfranchise are the very ones making up the bulk of the ' in for the long haul ' PAD mob.

Let's face it there are poor people supporting both UDP and PAD; the two extremist groups on both sides. The difference is there are actually many non paid people supporting PAD ( I personally know a ton of them who go from time to time); there are almost none supporting UDP which is a mob for hire of Newin mostly.

That said, the majority of Thais are somewhere in the middle, and the attempts of PAD and extreme PPP supporters to try to claim some sort of there are only two groups, 'those extremists on the other side and the rest of us on our side' is very damaging.

Channel 9 is obviously going to promote PPP (same as Channel 11) due to the obvious PPP connections (and my company works for one of these networks, if you work for either station then I am sure you've seen the same blatant reward/punishments that the rest of us have seen).

It is not that suprising Isuppose that you would consider that the PAD is trying to 'disenfranchise the homeless' being that you are a major cheer leader for the PPP the whole way through this and many other threads. I and most others have little idea what the PAD is trying to do given that they change their mind all the time. The Nation article referred to is so jumbled it is tough to discern much from that either.

I also have minimal idea of what the PPP are trying to do either incidentally, other than trying to save their boss in any way they can. They certainly haven't appeared to have any interest in helping the homeless either; they actually haven't done anything in the last few months other than a few free buses which are a party political.

Two totally inept groups - I like to describe them as the bland leading the blind.

That said what TRT/PPP got up to with regards to democracy is F&*King terrifying if you worked in business and weren't part of their inner group or worked in the media or any independent non governmental group not seen to be on their side.

As far as the provincial politicians, let's face it the same group are always in power there, so let's give the villagers a chance to vote for them and pretend to have a democracy for now; at some point they may start using their vote for people other than the gangsters (sorry alledged gangsters in some cases and actually recognised internationally gangsters in other cases) that are currently paid for by Chart Thai and PPP buy may at some switch their allegiances in the future as they used to with the Dems, New Aspiration party, Chart Pattana Chart Thai etc etc.

The

[Bangyai]

As far as the provincial politicians, let's face it the same group are always in power there, so let's give the villagers a chance to vote for them and pretend to have a democracy for now; at some point they may start using their vote for people other than the gangsters (sorry alledged gangsters in some cases and actually recognised internationally gangsters in other cases) that are currently paid for by Chart Thai and PPP buy may at some switch their allegiances in the future as they used to with the Dems, New Aspiration party, Chart Pattana Chart Thai etc etc.

The END ???

I hope you don't mind, I took the liberty of tidying up the end of your post or were you in a hurry ?

Anyway, just to clarify my position and probably the position of many others who make anti PAD posts...yes, I do not like the PAD....but no , I am not particularly pro PPP. What I do think is that now Samak is gone the govournment should be given a chance before being condemned. As pro PAD posters sometimes point out...this democracy is not working as it should and is riddled with corrupt politicians. This I agree with. What I don't think is in the Thai peoples best interests is throwing the baby out with the water and scrapping everything in favour of the ruling elite.Its no use saying ' democracy doesn't work in Thailand, lets scrap it altogether '. Democracy takes time to mature. There was a time in England when you had to be a land owner to vote and women didn't have the vote at all. Those in power were the self serving elite who lived very well at the expense of the poor . Until 1932, Thailand was an absolute monarchy and it is only fairly recently that the majority of the Thais have had any say in things at all. If they sell their votes, it does not seem logical to take the vote away from them . As h90 suggested, it would be a good idea if vote sellers were fined. To give people an additional incentive there could be financial rewards given to people who report people who attempt buy votes.

As Prachatai suggested , the PAD could be a very useful social action group and govournment watchdog if they limited themselves to blowing the whistle on corrupt politicians. As it is, the PAD leadership , apart from wishing to destroy the govournment, seem to have their own muddled agenda which will mark the death knoll for Thailands ailing democracy....a real negative step at a time when there is now,a real chance to progress. There are other issues but I would be digressing to far.

[Los78]

I think PAD are SEVERELY misguided... What a bunch of clowns! It's actually very worrying that so many people take them serious, Farangs included.

Yes its sad how some Farangs want a form of dictatorship when in their home countries people have a free democracy where every vote counts.

[sabaijai]

Fight for democracy

The opinions of non-Thais range from disbelief to disdain and disgust at what is going on with Thai democracy. Here is help for our foreign critics to understand how we got into this mess.

By Voranai Vanijaka

In recent times, "democracy" is a word that has been thrown around more often than a ping pong ball in Patpong - and suffers about the same level of degradation.

From words in the pubs to letters in Postbag, to the reports by foreign correspondents and commentaries by the esteemed editors of various prestigious western media, everyone has an opinion on what democracy is, and that it either does not exist in Thailand, or has been battered and abused into something quite undemocratic.

From the observations of many non-Thais, opinions have ranged anywhere from disbelief to disdain and downright disgust at what is going on with the democracy of this Kingdom. With harsh words and brutal assaults, slamming and insulting the Kingdom, and with it, my fellow countrymen.

Well, allow me to address our foreign critics and help form an understanding of how we got into this mess. Though by all means, this observation is one man's humble opinion offered up to be considered, discussed and debated; nothing less, nothing more.

In the West, democracy is a tradition of over 2,000 years old, although it had taken a nap for centuries before it was rediscovered. One may trace the origin of modern democracy to the French Revolution (1782), the American Revolution (1776), or even the signing of the Magna Carta (1215). But no matter which event one would like to attribute modern democracy to, it is unarguable that Western democracy has been several centuries in the making and written by numerous conflicts and much bloodshed.

So if the West has gone through centuries of mistakes, of trials and tribulations, to arrive at a healthy, though imperfect system of modern democracy, why can't Thailand embrace the finished product, packaged with a beautiful ribbon? Well, it's not that we don't want to.

To understand where we are now, one must look at the historical evolution of Thailand since the conversion to constitutional monarchy in 1932.

From our first prime minister, Praya Manopakorn Nititada, to our latest, Somchai Wongsawat, in the 76 years since there have been 36 prime ministers, most of whom were "appointees", by the military or otherwise.

There were many reasons behind these "appointees", military or otherwise, not least of which was the influence of the superpowers and their Cold War chess match. Like the majority of the Third World, we were but a pawn served up on a platter with a side order of freedom fries by our leaders, to be exploited in the name of democracy against the rising tides of communism. Never mind the fact that we ourselves were ruled by military dictators for much of that time.

It wasn't until 1988 when we sustained a succession of "elected" leaders, starting with the government of General Chartchai Chunhawan.

Only for 20 years had the electoral process been able to sustain breathing room in this Kingdom, minus the hiccups in Black May 1992 and the 2006 coup. Is the Thai democracy young and fragile? It's a sickly, crying toddler in an incubator. So why, I ask you, would anyone look at an infant in an incubator with disdain and disgust?

Through much of our history in the 20th century, the overwhelming majority of the Thai population were peasant farmers, the backbone of the Kingdom, who wouldn't know a democracy from a tamagochi. How could they? With little to no education, their primary concerns were simply feeding and clothing their children? Democratic ideals are the luxury of the "haves", the "have nots" hold graver concerns. Is that so unbelievable? So disdainful? So disgusting?

It was only the economic boom of the late 1980s and 1990s, the advances in communication technology and globalisation, that saw the burgeoning middle class. Western education, or education period, was no longer the privilege of the elites.

Be that as it may, not unlike the period of Industrial Revolution in the West, the people were much more infatuated with the newfound riches than the ideals of democracy. Human nature: a pile of cash on the table versus some lofty ideal, which would the average Somchai and Somying one generation removed from the rice field (or the villages of Communist China) choose? Is that so disdainful, so disgusting, so unbelievable?

The infant may be wearing Gucci and the incubator may be the latest Mercedes model, but the fact is, in the 1990s Thailand's democracy was still just an infant in the incubator. As such, we were easily exploited by corrupt leaders, thrifty merchants (local and foreign) and, of course, our own greed. That is disdainful and disgusting, but which country has never gone through such a period? Like puberty, it isn't pretty, but it's a natural process of evolution.

With the Asian financial crisis of 1997, we woke up and realised that we simply exchanged "appointees", military or otherwise, for opportunistic thugs and gangsters, who knew about running a country and economy as much as we Thais know how to queue up in orderly fashion to board/deboard the Sky Train. They simply sneaked into office while the educated middle class were too busy having a bubble bath.

Then it happened. Clouds parted, Beethoven's Symphony No 3 echoed out of nowhere, the birds and the bees chanted, "hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah"! For the messiah had arrived! He was not a general, nor a gangster. He was a businessman who built a telecommunication empire with his own hands.

For a society that had embraced capitalism for only a little over a decade, we were googoo and gaagaa over him like he was some K-pop heartthrob. For the first time in the history of Thailand, the rich, the poor and those in between agreed on one thing: Thaksin Shinawatra was our man.

Chuan Leekpai was solid, but he was a plain housewife. This new guy was Paris Hilton on steroids. Is it so unbelievable, so disdainful, so disgusting? Infant in an incubator, we were lost lambs, confused and desperate, then came our shepherd, our saviour, all glittery in golden lights.

And well, you know the rest of the story.

Here we are in 2008. Duped and deceived, scarred and full of scorn. Conflict in all levels of society. Flocking to the banner of the PAD are simply people who have had enough. Sure, the leaders of the PAD are questionable. Sure, many of the PAD's tactics are unsavoury. But allow me to speak for the average Thai person - rich, middle and poor - we marched simply because we have had enough.

Similar to Black May 1992. Then we marched because we wanted no more military dictatorship, but now we march because we want no more greedy money merchants and their thuggish cronies.

Is this undermining democracy? There is no democracy to undermine. We never had it. Democracy isn't just about going to the poll and voting. Democracy isn't about smiling as you are getting screwed over once again. That may be fine for countries with healthy, but imperfect democracy. But here, in this corner of the Third World, we are tired of taking it lying down and are simply saying enough is enough.

They don't hand out democracy at the local mom and pop store, and it isn't on sale at Central or Paragon. One must fight for it.

It's an ugly fight. But is there such a thing as a pretty fight? Definitely, there isn't anything democratic about a fight, just ask the Coalition of the Willing. At least we avoid bloodshed as best we can. Granted, a lot of us aren't even sure what we're fighting for, a lot of us are simply venting frustrations and anger, but at least we're conscious and alive enough to stand up and fight.

Certainly there are and will be mistakes to overcome, trials and tribulations to triumph over in the road ahead. As I wrote in my first commentary on Sept 14, we Thais also have to look at ourselves and start the change with ourselves, not just point fingers at our corrupt leaders.

Is it so unbelievable, disdainful, disgusting? For those who are understanding, we thank you. For those who are not, please take no offence. You don't have to help us, or support us, constructive criticisms are welcomed and appreciated. But beg your pardon, please do not insult us. Especially if you are a guest in our country.

[Los78]

I believe in the freedom to vote and that everyone's vote should be counted equally. It should not matter if they are poor farmers or the the rich elite. If someone is trying to take someone's voting power away I will fight against that group. PAD is clear in its intent to take away peoples voting power so in my mind this is the worst form of curruption there is.

[JohnBanPrang]

Thank you for your free propaganda.

"bangkok post on steroids !!!! "

What about Voranai Vanijaka.

His hands are clean.

Not paid, independent point of view.

555555555

Bangkok post is the real deal???

Wake up.

[JohnBanPrang]

Fight for democracy

The opinions of non-Thais range from disbelief to disdain and disgust at what is going on with Thai democracy. Here is help for our foreign critics to understand how we got into this mess.

By Voranai Vanijaka

In recent times, "democracy" is a word that has been thrown around more often than a ping pong ball in Patpong - and suffers about the same level of degradation.

From words in the pubs to letters in Postbag, to the reports by foreign correspondents and commentaries by the esteemed editors of various prestigious western media, everyone has an opinion on what democracy is, and that it either does not exist in Thailand, or has been battered and abused into something quite undemocratic.

From the observations of many non-Thais, opinions have ranged anywhere from disbelief to disdain and downright disgust at what is going on with the democracy of this Kingdom. With harsh words and brutal assaults, slamming and insulting the Kingdom, and with it, my fellow countrymen.

Well, allow me to address our foreign critics and help form an understanding of how we got into this mess. Though by all means, this observation is one man's humble opinion offered up to be considered, discussed and debated; nothing less, nothing more.

In the West, democracy is a tradition of over 2,000 years old, although it had taken a nap for centuries before it was rediscovered. One may trace the origin of modern democracy to the French Revolution (1782), the American Revolution (1776), or even the signing of the Magna Carta (1215). But no matter which event one would like to attribute modern democracy to, it is unarguable that Western democracy has been several centuries in the making and written by numerous conflicts and much bloodshed.

So if the West has gone through centuries of mistakes, of trials and tribulations, to arrive at a healthy, though imperfect system of modern democracy, why can't Thailand embrace the finished product, packaged with a beautiful ribbon? Well, it's not that we don't want to.

To understand where we are now, one must look at the historical evolution of Thailand since the conversion to constitutional monarchy in 1932.

From our first prime minister, Praya Manopakorn Nititada, to our latest, Somchai Wongsawat, in the 76 years since there have been 36 prime ministers, most of whom were "appointees", by the military or otherwise.

There were many reasons behind these "appointees", military or otherwise, not least of which was the influence of the superpowers and their Cold War chess match. Like the majority of the Third World, we were but a pawn served up on a platter with a side order of freedom fries by our leaders, to be exploited in the name of democracy against the rising tides of communism. Never mind the fact that we ourselves were ruled by military dictators for much of that time.

It wasn't until 1988 when we sustained a succession of "elected" leaders, starting with the government of General Chartchai Chunhawan.

Only for 20 years had the electoral process been able to sustain breathing room in this Kingdom, minus the hiccups in Black May 1992 and the 2006 coup. Is the Thai democracy young and fragile? It's a sickly, crying toddler in an incubator. So why, I ask you, would anyone look at an infant in an incubator with disdain and disgust?

Through much of our history in the 20th century, the overwhelming majority of the Thai population were peasant farmers, the backbone of the Kingdom, who wouldn't know a democracy from a tamagochi. How could they? With little to no education, their primary concerns were simply feeding and clothing their children? Democratic ideals are the luxury of the "haves", the "have nots" hold graver concerns. Is that so unbelievable? So disdainful? So disgusting?

It was only the economic boom of the late 1980s and 1990s, the advances in communication technology and globalisation, that saw the burgeoning middle class. Western education, or education period, was no longer the privilege of the elites.

Be that as it may, not unlike the period of Industrial Revolution in the West, the people were much more infatuated with the newfound riches than the ideals of democracy. Human nature: a pile of cash on the table versus some lofty ideal, which would the average Somchai and Somying one generation removed from the rice field (or the villages of Communist China) choose? Is that so disdainful, so disgusting, so unbelievable?

The infant may be wearing Gucci and the incubator may be the latest Mercedes model, but the fact is, in the 1990s Thailand's democracy was still just an infant in the incubator. As such, we were easily exploited by corrupt leaders, thrifty merchants (local and foreign) and, of course, our own greed. That is disdainful and disgusting, but which country has never gone through such a period? Like puberty, it isn't pretty, but it's a natural process of evolution.

With the Asian financial crisis of 1997, we woke up and realised that we simply exchanged "appointees", military or otherwise, for opportunistic thugs and gangsters, who knew about running a country and economy as much as we Thais know how to queue up in orderly fashion to board/deboard the Sky Train. They simply sneaked into office while the educated middle class were too busy having a bubble bath.

Then it happened. Clouds parted, Beethoven's Symphony No 3 echoed out of nowhere, the birds and the bees chanted, "hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah"! For the messiah had arrived! He was not a general, nor a gangster. He was a businessman who built a telecommunication empire with his own hands.

For a society that had embraced capitalism for only a little over a decade, we were googoo and gaagaa over him like he was some K-pop heartthrob. For the first time in the history of Thailand, the rich, the poor and those in between agreed on one thing: Thaksin Shinawatra was our man.

Chuan Leekpai was solid, but he was a plain housewife. This new guy was Paris Hilton on steroids. Is it so unbelievable, so disdainful, so disgusting? Infant in an incubator, we were lost lambs, confused and desperate, then came our shepherd, our saviour, all glittery in golden lights.

And well, you know the rest of the story.

Here we are in 2008. Duped and deceived, scarred and full of scorn. Conflict in all levels of society. Flocking to the banner of the PAD are simply people who have had enough. Sure, the leaders of the PAD are questionable. Sure, many of the PAD's tactics are unsavoury. But allow me to speak for the average Thai person - rich, middle and poor - we marched simply because we have had enough.

Similar to Black May 1992. Then we marched because we wanted no more military dictatorship, but now we march because we want no more greedy money merchants and their thuggish cronies.

Is this undermining democracy? There is no democracy to undermine. We never had it. Democracy isn't just about going to the poll and voting. Democracy isn't about smiling as you are getting screwed over once again. That may be fine for countries with healthy, but imperfect democracy. But here, in this corner of the Third World, we are tired of taking it lying down and are simply saying enough is enough.

They don't hand out democracy at the local mom and pop store, and it isn't on sale at Central or Paragon. One must fight for it.

It's an ugly fight. But is there such a thing as a pretty fight? Definitely, there isn't anything democratic about a fight, just ask the Coalition of the Willing. At least we avoid bloodshed as best we can. Granted, a lot of us aren't even sure what we're fighting for, a lot of us are simply venting frustrations and anger, but at least we're conscious and alive enough to stand up and fight.

Certainly there are and will be mistakes to overcome, trials and tribulations to triumph over in the road ahead. As I wrote in my first commentary on Sept 14, we Thais also have to look at ourselves and start the change with ourselves, not just point fingers at our corrupt leaders.

Is it so unbelievable, disdainful, disgusting? For those who are understanding, we thank you. For those who are not, please take no offence. You don't have to help us, or support us, constructive criticisms are welcomed and appreciated. But beg your pardon, please do not insult us. Especially if you are a guest in our country.

I'm still in shock!!!!

Sabaijai, why you can't tell us where you got this info from???

[LaoPo]

I'm still in shock!!!!

Sabaijai, why you can't tell us where you got this info from???

It was mentioned a few messages earlier already...published in Bangkok...

I said it before, I say it again and WILL repeat it as long as they publish and protest, trying to implement their so called New Politics Propaganda:

The PAD is a very dangerous movement for the future of Thailand; it reminds me of an era, 1933-1945, when a country (and Europe) was ruled by a party called NSDAP*** under a TOTALITARIAN DICTATORSHIP, causing Millions of deaths. The NSDAP started the same way as the PAD does now...

That's why I am stunned, shocked and hardly believe that some TV members support this 'PAD-movement' for so called NEW POLITICS which in fact is their Propaganda, leading to a Single-Party-State and Dictatorship...with it's leader: Sondhi Limthongul !

Don't let yourselves fooled and blinded by the PAD, the protests, the Propaganda and it's leader who is staying VERY low profile the past weeks (clever...) to take the heat away from the proposed 70:30 rule...now backed off to 50:50.

*** National Sozialistischen Deutschen Arbeiterpartei...beter known as the NAZI Party.

read the history: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Germany

LaoPo

[geriatrickid]

I am not a big fan of PAD (was anyone wondering ), but I certainly am not about to call them nazis. Yes, there are some similarities, but the same can be said for the crazy cults of worship found wherever there were/are crazy dictators, Nicaraugua under the Sandanistas, N. Korea under Kim Il Jong, Zimbabawe under Mugabe and Venezuala under Chavez. Always given to public choreography, always claiming to represent the people, proponents of harsh police state measures and hateful of outsiders. Nazis? Nope. Just brutal, nasty regimes.

Old saying - Give them an inch and they'll take a mile. Try for appeasement with PAD and they'll just keep going. If PAD truly was looking out for the working man/woman and the best interests of Thailand, I'd shut up, but we've seen this game played all over the world for the past 100 years or so. Some of us, do read history.

[permanent_disorder]

I said it before, I say it again and WILL repeat it as long as they publish and protest, trying to implement their so called New Politics Propaganda:

The PAD is a very dangerous movement for the future of Thailand; it reminds me of an era, 1933-1945, when a country (and Europe) was ruled by a party called NSDAP*** under a TOTALITARIAN DICTATORSHIP, causing Millions of deaths. The NSDAP started the same way as the PAD does now...

i will not go so far and say the PAD are going to kill 6 million. but look the early beginning.

i called them brownyellowshirts.

it's a antidemocratic movement, who agree with that one? they got called that way by the international press, many quotes have been posted. did you read them? (follow that link, that are the tom, dick, harrys khun Voranai Vanijaka explined what they got wrong)

1. they got called "One day they are called fascists one day communists, one day ..." looks like a discrepance, right? but is it not, i recommend to read the studies of Hannah Arendt: The Origins of Totalitarianism and Karl Popper: The Open Society and Its Enemies on totalitarianism to understand what those society models have in common.

i don't want go any depper academic here. i just mention both names to define the origin of my point of view, like Poppers critique of platos philosopher kings or marx historicism and any political theory that promise a new and better way, the only way and comes for example with lines like Support for good people to manage the country and blocking of evil people from coming to power.

but i am open for a further discussion on this and you can throw in some other names of other so called thinkers (Carl Schmitt?), so that we have a base to debate about.

2. now i want explain why i called them brownyellowshirts.

the Sturmabteilung was a paramilitary organization of the NSDAP, that helps hitler came to power, that austrian with a vision: "The Nation"

SA motto ""All opposition must be stamped into the ground" that included violent street fights with that other working class movement.

but the "conquest of the streets" (adolf hitler) was also a extraparliamentarian tactic to weaken the government.

official SA pamphlet:

"Possession of the streets is the key to power in the state-for this reason the SA marched and fought. the public would have never received knowledge from the agitative speeches of the little reichstag faction and its propaganda or from the desires and aims of the Party, if the martial tread and battle song of the SA companies had not beat the measure for the truth of a relentless criticism of the state of affairs in the governmental system.

but i think you know the history and know also that the pre1933 nazi movement devloped to a big mass movement, represent quite a big part of the "people", also a pool of different suborganisations, factions and ideas, the 100% one Führer cult came later. pre-war nobody knowed what will really follow and chaplin made a funny movie.

i don't predict a barbarian state in thailand but there a parallels that worries me.

the PAD Cult style of the "conquest of the streets". do you still believe that was and is all peaceful?

hateful language and calling opponents subhumans we hear since the beginning. mass demonstration in front of embassies with nationalistic treats, blokade airports, besiege police stations, TV stations and government house is the conquest of the street.

the have various weapens, produce makeshift weapons, fully armored "guards" and paramilitaric riot training.

i don't post the pictures of that bloody street fights again, just two others that shows the "conquest of the streets" tactic.

caption:Anti-government protesters holding home made weapons and a police shield rally in the Royal Plaza in Bangkok, Thailand, Saturday, Aug. 30, 2008. ...

caption:Anti-government demonstrators wait for riot training Saturday, Aug. 30, 2008, near Government House in Bangkok, Thailand. . ...

that a reasons for me to compare them with the Sturmabteilung and call them brownyellowshirts.

if we would see in another part of the world a similar mob on the street, but maybe with a neo-maoist or trotskyist agenda, i would compare them too with the nazis. see my point 1.

3. i will just quote some academics. i have done that before but some still speaking of rumors without facts.

To PAD watchers like Professor Prabhas Pintoptang of Chulalongkorn's faculty of political science, the coalition has been seen as planting structural hatred and division in society

on a scale far worse than that ever achieved by the previous government under ousted premier Thaksin Shinawatra.

In his interview with Thai Post last month, Prof Prabhas said the PAD had become ''an ultra-nationalist movement''.

He said the PAD was using the same demonisation tactics employed by the right-wing militia to crush the pro-democracy student movement in the mid-1970s, which ended in the lynching of student activists near Thammasat University on Oct 6, 1976.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/280808_News/28Aug2008_news13.php

"Most dangerously, the PAD's new turn has the potential to lend a significant social base to a conservative and reactionary form of corporatism.

In the 1980s, the semi-fascist corporatist politics of the Revolutionary Council were marginalised as Thai politics democratised. The council became a laughing stock and the organisation was dubbed the "Joke Council". Somehow, the PAD seems to have reversed Marx's dictum that history repeats itself, first as tragedy and then as farce.

How far the PAD has travelled is perhaps illustrated by reference to a rally I observed in the middle of last week. A well-known rock star called on the spirit of the 1950s dictator Sarit Thanarat to deal decisively with corruption. The best that can be said of that episode is that people were applauding on cue"

Michael Connors, teacher of politics at La Trobe University. author of "Democracy and National Identity in Thailand" (2007).

http://www.bangkokpost.com/topstories/tops...s.php?id=128765

"The PAD leaders just lead the demonstrations, but are henchmen for much more influential and higher-up people. ...

But one is made to think why there have been such concerted efforts among various bodies in shaking up and attacking the government like this. The PAD kicked the ball. The media cheered. Political parties joined in, and passed the ball to the courts. And the courts shot the goal. Do these groups just converge by pure chance or a miracle? Apart from the courts, these groups overlap with those who killed students on Oct 6, 1976. This is a historical continuity. They are the same interest groups. Some are even the same persons."

Chaiyan Ratchakul, History Department, Faculty of Humanities, Chiang Mai University

http://www.prachatai.com/english/news.php?id=707

There have been comparisons made in recent weeks between the rallies in Bangkok and the mobilizing of fascist, anti-democratic groups on the streets of Europe many decades ago. But it is in this targeting and redirecting of the work done by the courts that current events most closely resemble those of 1930s Germany.

In the Weimar period, the judiciary was increasingly manipulated and used to serve a particular set of interests, those of the emerging Nazis and their allies, against their political opponents. The courts throughout this time stuck to the letter of the law while defying its spirit, hollowing it out so that virtually anything could be made to fit inside but still be defended in legal terms.

Among the types of political cases brought to the courts, there was a category of artificially-created offenses, in which a crime may technically have been committed within the narrow terms of a statute but could only be made sensible if divorced from its historical and social setting, and reduced to minute details....

http://www.upiasiaonline.com/Human_Rights/...o_problem/4355/

Thongchai Winichakul, a historian at University of Madison at Wisconsin wrote a note for the meeting criticising many Thai academic's view on the PAD which he regarded as flawed.

"If what the PAD have done for months and years, including creating the pretext for the coup in 2006, were not violence, please stop talking about any abstract, non-physical violence, such as structural violence, because that is a farce!" he said.

Thongchai said the PAD resembled the Fascist Party before World War II as it resorted to "propaganda, demagoguery, smear campaigns against the opponents, public indoctrination, fear mongering, militant nationalism, and so on."

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/08/31...cs_30082051.php

so now you can call me brain-dead and keep it that way, but i prefer to rationalize and substantiate my points. and if others had called the PAD cult fascists and/or communists it is also justified. the accusation of being communists are special funny, because they come from both sides. antiPADists refer to tyrants like stalin, communist brainwash and a big failure in "society experiments" with all the results and suffer brought by it to the people. but i read also comments by proPAD cultists, proudly show their support because the are communist/socialists by heart, live in the illusion communism would be something good and also in the illusion the PAD cult is something like this. sad is that fellow proPAD cultists who should know it better don't enlighten them.

the PAD cult annoucment the direction of new politics for the Kingdom of Thailand as the only solution, "It is not necessary for negotiations with any group that sees otherwise.", reminds on the third way, third reich or marxism-leninism rhetoric. also the new 'softer' talk about it, reminds me on that other dictatorship, another society experiment a part of germany had to suffer for additional 45 years more after the nazis fail.

actually the post war socialist states would be better juxtapose. but who knows much about them? PAD cultists definitly nothing.

the east german stalinist called their state democratic but it as not. the parliament Volkskammer /People's Chamber. the MP came from all walks of live, not only different parties, but also mass organisations, like Unions, Women's League, the Youth, the intellectuals, academics, artists. a bunch called National Front.

the candidates of the National Front always won the election by 99,96-99,98% yes votes.

in my youth had the change to take part in such a "society experiments" of a political cult, a cult of do-gooders and do-betters. a hel_l. a self isolated country, lead by do-betters with a vision, a economic that went ill and the pseudo-religious esoteric masterplan called marxism leninism + lots of nationalistic proud. i didn't like it and they threaten you if start to ask questions, could kick you out from high school or university or you would lose your job, and no higher education for your kids, or send you to jail. people demonstrate - amy tanks came to town.

marx-lenin-infallibility. with every questioning, the brainwash functionary told you that you support capitalism aka slave labour, slaughter of vietnamese babies, old-nazis, the attempt of the enemy bomb "us" to dust and other could war propaganda BS. you could not open talk about the marx. concept our how it's done. if you had not agreed 100% you have been 100% against.

and now have the PAD cult the same infallibility. if you start questions no answer, except that you support the wrong doings of the enemy. arrogant, that is. the typical behavior of a cultists, a 100% believer.

[clausewitz]

To PAD watchers like Professor Prabhas Pintoptang of Chulalongkorn's faculty of political science, the coalition has been seen as planting structural hatred and division in society

on a scale far worse than that ever achieved by the previous government under ousted premier Thaksin Shinawatra.

In his interview with Thai Post last month, Prof Prabhas said the PAD had become ''an ultra-nationalist movement''.

He said the PAD was using the same demonisation tactics employed by the right-wing militia to crush the pro-democracy student movement in the mid-1970s, which ended in the lynching of student activists near Thammasat University on Oct 6, 1976.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/280808_News/28Aug2008_news13.php

"Most dangerously, the PAD's new turn has the potential to lend a significant social base to a conservative and reactionary form of corporatism.

In the 1980s, the semi-fascist corporatist politics of the Revolutionary Council were marginalised as Thai politics democratised. The council became a laughing stock and the organisation was dubbed the "Joke Council". Somehow, the PAD seems to have reversed Marx's dictum that history repeats itself, first as tragedy and then as farce.

How far the PAD has travelled is perhaps illustrated by reference to a rally I observed in the middle of last week. A well-known rock star called on the spirit of the 1950s dictator Sarit Thanarat to deal decisively with corruption. The best that can be said of that episode is that people were applauding on cue"

Michael Connors, teacher of politics at La Trobe University. author of "Democracy and National Identity in Thailand" (2007).

http://www.bangkokpost.com/topstories/tops...s.php?id=128765

"The PAD leaders just lead the demonstrations, but are henchmen for much more influential and higher-up people. ...

But one is made to think why there have been such concerted efforts among various bodies in shaking up and attacking the government like this. The PAD kicked the ball. The media cheered. Political parties joined in, and passed the ball to the courts. And the courts shot the goal. Do these groups just converge by pure chance or a miracle? Apart from the courts, these groups overlap with those who killed students on Oct 6, 1976. This is a historical continuity. They are the same interest groups. Some are even the same persons."

Chaiyan Ratchakul, History Department, Faculty of Humanities, Chiang Mai University

http://www.prachatai.com/english/news.php?id=707

There have been comparisons made in recent weeks between the rallies in Bangkok and the mobilizing of fascist, anti-democratic groups on the streets of Europe many decades ago. But it is in this targeting and redirecting of the work done by the courts that current events most closely resemble those of 1930s Germany.

In the Weimar period, the judiciary was increasingly manipulated and used to serve a particular set of interests, those of the emerging Nazis and their allies, against their political opponents. The courts throughout this time stuck to the letter of the law while defying its spirit, hollowing it out so that virtually anything could be made to fit inside but still be defended in legal terms.

Among the types of political cases brought to the courts, there was a category of artificially-created offenses, in which a crime may technically have been committed within the narrow terms of a statute but could only be made sensible if divorced from its historical and social setting, and reduced to minute details....

http://www.upiasiaonline.com/Human_Rights/...o_problem/4355/

Thongchai Winichakul, a historian at University of Madison at Wisconsin wrote a note for the meeting criticising many Thai academic's view on the PAD which he regarded as flawed.

"If what the PAD have done for months and years, including creating the pretext for the coup in 2006, were not violence, please stop talking about any abstract, non-physical violence, such as structural violence, because that is a farce!" he said.

Thongchai said the PAD resembled the Fascist Party before World War II as it resorted to "propaganda, demagoguery, smear campaigns against the opponents, public indoctrination, fear mongering, militant nationalism, and so on."

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/08/31...cs_30082051.php

Was it camerata who posted the long list of quotes from the foreign medias views of PAD, I was looking for it but can't seem to find the post?

[Ricardo]

What are your feelings regarding those who support the PAD since the early beginning? There is very few of them, but they post a lot, like they don't have to work. Do you believe they are actually employed (paid) to defend PAD / democrat's view ?

Perhaps they don't have to work anymore, and are retired, maybe someone should run a Poll, to see how many TV-posters are still self-employed or wage-slaves & how many have escaped the rat-race ?

Update :-

Based on a sample of 171 votes, in the Poll on how TV-members cover their living-costs, only 55% were employees or self-employed, which suggests that it is fairly common for TV-posters not to have to work. For what it's worth.

[permanent_disorder]

Was it camerata who posted the long list of quotes from the foreign medias views of PAD, I was looking for it but can't seem to find the post?

i qouted mostly thai media or thai academics. i guess your a looking for the quotes i hyper linked in my sentence it's a antidemocratic movement, who agree with that one? they got called that way by the international press, many quotes have been posted. did you read them? (follow that link, that are the tom, dick, harrys khun Voranai Vanijaka explined what they got wrong)

so just follow that link behind international press. but there is no need to full quote that again. but that is a mirror in that PAD cultist Khun Voranai Vanijaka should take longer look. and he should think about what criticism is. criticism of PAD is not an insult of thailand.

[clausewitz]

Thanks PD! yes this is the one

The so-called People’s Alliance for Democracy proposes an audaciously undemocratic “new politics” whereby most members of parliament would be appointed. Centre for Humanitarian Dialogue, Geneva

The insurgents still style themselves as the “People’s Alliance for Democracy,” but this time some of their leaders are explicit in calling for just the opposite: the restoration of a full monarchy or a military-backed autocracy. Washington Post

What his [samak’s] opponents, who come under the misleading banner of the People’s Alliance for Democracy (PAD), want is a mandate on demand, by theft. Straits Times

Even though the PAD’s very name includes the word democracy, many of its supporters are skeptical of electoral politics. Time

Neither the PAD nor the DAAD advocate any recognisable form of democracy. Guardian

The rebel groups are trying to roll back the results of last December’s general elections and reinstall rule by an urban elite traditionally backed by the Thai armed forces. Irish Times

An alliance of street protesters and a reactionary elite. Financial Times

The latest ideologue [sondhi] who promises to fix their country’s democracy by -- once again -- breaking it. Wall Street Journal

What the People’s Alliance for Democracy (PAD) did on August 26 … was a putsch. La Stampa

Authoritarian rabble … the woefully misnamed People’s Alliance for Democracy … a gruesome bunch of reactionary businessmen, generals and aristocrats. Economist

The PAD leadership is no collection of spotless democrats. The Independent (London)

The group’s name appears to be a misnomer as it is neither populist nor does it want representative democracy. Al-Jazeera

[wayfarer108]

LaoPo, the Nazis came to power in Germany through the popular vote, using much the same tactics as the TRT and PPP.

[Bangyai]

I am not a big fan of PAD (was anyone wondering ), but I certainly am not about to call them nazis. Yes, there are some similarities, but the same can be said for the crazy cults of worship found wherever there were/are crazy dictators, Nicaraugua under the Sandanistas, N. Korea under Kim Il Jong, Zimbabawe under Mugabe and Venezuala under Chavez. Always given to public choreography, always claiming to represent the people, proponents of harsh police state measures and hateful of outsiders. Nazis? Nope. Just brutal, nasty regimes.

Old saying - Give them an inch and they'll take a mile. Try for appeasement with PAD and they'll just keep going. If PAD truly was looking out for the working man/woman and the best interests of Thailand, I'd shut up, but we've seen this game played all over the world for the past 100 years or so. Some of us, do read history.

Another old saying - Give them enough rope and they'll hang themselves. Hopefully.

[permanent_disorder]

LaoPo, the Nazis came to power in Germany through the popular vote, using much the same tactics as the TRT and PPP.

please give reasons for that assertion. and before you start, look if you don't find the same in the PAD. be anti-government and use the special spice hate was a nazi thing. i wrote two entries about how a mass movement rise to power.

if you can do a similar with theTRT/ PPP, i would like to listen/read. thank you.

[permanent_disorder]

PADs New Economy:

nationalism, ecology and right wing anti-(finance) capitalistism vs. globalisation & liberalisation

that is one of the main points we should look at. New Politics, democratic or whatever, is in the PAD cult ideology only the instrument to push the demand for New Economy

a strong dislike of a open market and competition. a strong dislike of the "international money", a strong nationalistic back to our former proud movement.

thaksin is most hated by them, because he conducted business with foreigners.

after announcement of "new politics" 2 weeks ago, they now start to talk about their demands on economics. look here http://www.thailandoutlook.tv/TOC/ViewData...?DataID=1009497 .

we can not discuss the "Sufficiency Economy" for a reason. this is also a main point in the PAD propaganda against thaksin. for the PAD thaksin was againts "Sufficiency Economy".

but the PAD cult goes much more further that wise advise. and i think we should have look at it:

"buddhist economy" for the economic the PAD cult follow ideas like E. F. Schumacher’s "Small is Beautiful", because is idea of small local trade and so on is a perfect plan to live out their nationalistic and xenophobic mania. schuhmacher says no to global trade and no to export for the sake of nature. no to speculation, no to live in cities. give that concept in the hand of some lunatics it's a perfect tool to isolate the country.

ecology-oriented moralist & do-gooder. for schuhmacher and fellows there is no need for further economic grow, it's enough already.

the PAD cult starts some strange "society experiment". in the past was everyting better, a perfect idyll, innocent people in balance with the nature. the enemy is the modernity, the consumerism, the greed for money. they want go back to the good old days. no reason for a fisherman to rent his hut to a tourist for money. the fisherman can be happy with his fish, he don't need more and more and more. stop. the tourist, the global traveller have a bad impact on mother nature,CO2and so on. and he would bring the poisonous idea of cosumerism to the virgin mind of the fisherman kids. that is the point where some people here from the PAD stage "pit prateat thai"

PAD cult are hard core environmental moralists. in the idea of localism is no space for tourism.

and of course no investment, no mega projects. but back to the country side, small happy village people funny farms. a Mesoputopia vision. no reason for foreigners be here.

those people total nuts.

i met such schuchmacher believers before. they a dreamers and gaga. just google the name, read some papers from the schuhmacher society and how this schuhmacher dream could be become reality in a 3rd world experiment. that includes among other odd things ideas like that the kids of our fisherman or a fmer son don't have to go to the school in the city. there they learn a lot of things even about einstein (a main main culprit for schuhmacher). but they don't need that knowlogde, the opposite at school the kids unlearn how to live in balance with nature and how to live & survive with the nature, the original condition. the moralists also blame the TV, anything modern.

i don't want link here a schuhmacher/ "buddhist economy" analysis. if you google you will find many stuff, mostly written by apologists and epigones, schumacher worshippers. you can do a study of sources and have to think for yourself.

partly it sounds pretty cool and like a good solution, can be convincing. we can take or should take words like the one of schuhmacher as a reminder that we should not forget mother nature in a monkey race for peanuts and money. but there is a danger if that more or less esoteric idea becomes the power anyone have to obey, here i want quote Karl Popper once more:

“But of all political ideals, that of making the people happy is perhaps the most dangerous one. It leads invariably to the attempt to impose our scale of ‘higher’ values upon others, in order to make them realize what seems to us of greatest importance for their happiness; in order, as it were, to save their souls. It leads to Utopianism and Romanticism. We all feel certain that everybody would be happy in the beautiful, the perfect community of our dreams. And no doubt, there would be heaven on earth if we could all love one another. But, as I have said before, the attempt to make heaven on earth invaliably produces hel_l. It leads to intolerance. It leads to religious wars, and to the saving of souls through the inquisition. Ant it is, I believe, based on a complete misunderstanding of our moral duties. It is our duty to help those who need our help; but it cannot be our duty to make others happy, since this does not depend on us, and since it would only too often mean intruding on the privacy of those towards whom we have such amiable intentions. The political demand for piecemeal (as oposed to Utopian) methods corresponds to the decision that the fight against suffering must be considered a duty, while the right to care for happiness of others must be considered a privilege confined to the close circle of their friends. In their case, we may perhaps have a certain right to try to impose our scale of values---our preferences regarding music, for example. (And we may even feel it our duty to open to them a world of values which, we trust, can so much contribute to their happiness.) This right of ours exists only if, and because, they can get rid of us; because friendships can be ended. But the use of political means for imposing our scale of values upon others is a very different matter. Pain, suffering, injustice, and their prevention, these are the eternal problems of public morals, the ‘agenda’ of public policy (as Bentham would have said). The ‘higher’ values should very largely be considered ‘non-agenda’, and should be left to the realm of laissez-faire. Thus we might say: help your enemies; assist those in distress, even if they hate you; but love only your friends.”

don't laugh about someone who hear from the PAD stage "pit prateat thai, falang go out".

can you 100 % exlude that something like this was said? there are a lot of things that worries me when i see the PAD and others are concerned to. don't follow to blind a new idea, think more than twice, check other opinions and cross check your own.

be more concerned and start to listen what is actually said on the PAD stage.

New Politics just the concept how the " good people to manage the country and blocking of evil people from coming to power" okay, let's get rid of thakin and his proxies, get rid of corruption and so on. and maybe PAD style is the only way to do it. thaksin is much more than just a corrupt politician. for the PAD he is the symbol of a economic system they hate. that system is capitalism, a free and liberal market, the age of globalisation.

and if we have finally the good people in power. what those good people are up to is the question

Pipob Thongchai expressed his agreement with another PAD leader Sondhi Limthongkul to resort back to what he referred to as Eastern style economic system. Pipob said he agreed with Sondhi’s proposal for Thailand to try to restore its economic balance and push for environmentally sustainable economic development.

Pipob asserted that the balance between the environment and national revenue has been distorted by the Thaksin regime. He cited the Thaksin’s regime economic liberalization efforts as some of the greatest threats to the Thai economy. TOC

PAD founder and media baron Sondhi Limthongkul is leading the backlash. In contrast to Thaksin, who often spoke of elevating Thailand to the ranks of the developed world, Sondhi advocates a "reasonable society" no longer burdened by debt and obsessed with "how many cars or washing machines" people own. He favors limits on foreign investment, opposes privatization of utilities and warns, "Don't impose a free trade, consumer-oriented society on Thailand."

http://www.newsweek.com/id/157506

sounds good? don't forget the green & the brown SCNR

For many such people, it may come as a surprise to learn that the history of ecological politics has not always been inherently and necessarily progressive and benign. In fact, ecological ideas have a history of being distorted and placed in the service of highly regressive ends--even of fascism itself. As Peter Staudenmaier shows in the first essay in this pamphlet, important tendencies in German "ecologism," which has long roots in nineteenth-century nature mysticism, fed into the rise of Nazism in the twentieth century. During the Third Reich, Staudenmaier goes on to show, Nazi "ecologists" even made organic farming, vegetarianism, nature worship, and related themes into key elements not only in their ideology but in their governmental policies. Yet some of the themes that Nazi ideologists articulated bear an uncomfortably close resemblance to themes familiar to ecologically concerned people today.

Fascist Ecology: The "Green Wing" of the Nazi Party and its Historical Antecedents

http://www.spunk.org/library/places/german...1630/peter.html

[JohnBanPrang]

PADs way of wanting to rule resembles to some peoples opion here on TV.

Censorship has always been a problem.

PADs agenda is the same.

Wanting to control most of the opinions of other people.

Like trying to take different media corp.

Please don't forget that PAD is strongly supported by the Manger Media Group.

Including ASTV based out of........... Hong Kong!!!

How strange.

[clausewitz]

“Pipob Thongchai expressed his agreement with another PAD leader Sondhi Limthongkul to resort back to what he referred to as Eastern style economic system. Pipob said he agreed with Sondhi’s proposal for Thailand to try to restore its economic balance and push for environmentally sustainable economic development.

Pipob asserted that the balance between the environment and national revenue has been distorted by the Thaksin regime. He cited the Thaksin’s regime economic liberalization efforts as some of the greatest threats to the Thai economy. TOC

PAD founder and media baron Sondhi Limthongkul is leading the backlash. In contrast to Thaksin, who often spoke of elevating Thailand to the ranks of the developed world, Sondhi advocates a "reasonable society" no longer burdened by debt and obsessed with "how many cars or washing machines" people own. He favors limits on foreign investment, opposes privatization of utilities and warns, "Don't impose a free trade, consumer-oriented society on Thailand."

http://www.newsweek.com/id/157506

sounds good? don't forget the green & the brown SCNR

For many such people, it may come as a surprise to learn that the history of ecological politics has not always been inherently and necessarily progressive and benign. In fact, ecological ideas have a history of being distorted and placed in the service of highly regressive ends--even of fascism itself. As Peter Staudenmaier shows in the first essay in this pamphlet, important tendencies in German "ecologism," which has long roots in nineteenth-century nature mysticism, fed into the rise of Nazism in the twentieth century. During the Third Reich, Staudenmaier goes on to show, Nazi "ecologists" even made organic farming, vegetarianism, nature worship, and related themes into key elements not only in their ideology but in their governmental policies. Yet some of the themes that Nazi ideologists articulated bear an uncomfortably close resemblance to themes familiar to ecologically concerned people today.

Fascist Ecology: The "Green Wing" of the Nazi Party and its Historical Antecedents

http://www.spunk.org/library/places/german...1630/peter.html

More great quotes. I think this is why some of the crazier proponents of PAD , on this board, are so excited. They here the word 'green' and wet themselves.

[clausewitz]

PADs way of wanting to rule resembles to some peoples opion here on TV.

Censorship has always been a problem.

PADs agenda is the same.

Wanting to control most of the opinions of other people.

Like trying to take different media corp.

Please don't forget that PAD is strongly supported by the Manger Media Group.

Including ASTV based out of........... Hong Kong!!!

How strange.

Not strange! Sondhi, one of the leaders of PAD is the owner of aSTV and Manager. What is strange is that they are permitted to broadcast his ridiculous, traitorous nonsense. New Zealand, my hometown, has strict rules on estbalishing a TV station, even a off word or prase from a guest presenter would cause the company problems. Here they are so liberal towards the media that any rubbish is permitted.

[KhaoNiaw]

The views of PAD leades are not necessarily ideas that even a majority of the people who have come out to support the PAD would share. From what I can make out, most of the ordinary people there have come together in the genuine hope of trying to clean up Thai politics. Naive perhaps, but I think if the PAD got anywhere near trying to make a reality of some kind of serious anti-democratic agenda their support would evaporate quickly.

[Bangyai]

Mr Sonti Limtongkul's Manager media group promoting violence against a young student activist and a Chairwoman of a workers union

"Over 130 trade unionists, social activists, students and academics have put their names to an open letter condemning the behaviour of The Manager media group.

Those signing the letter include many academics at Chulalongkorn and Thammasart Universities, including the Dean of the faculty of Political Science at Chulalongkorn University. Former Senator Jon Ungpakorn and Rawadee Prasertcharoensuk from the N.G.O. Coordinating Committee, Professor Niti Eawsriwong, Textile trade union leaders, worker activists and an academic from the Midnight University are among the signatures.

The letter is in response to the actions of Mr Sonti Limtongkul's Manager group in promoting violence against a young student activist Chotisak Oonsung, who is being accused of lèse majesté because he refused to stand up for the King's Anthem at the cinema. Both Manager group websites and its radio station, Metro Life, have encouraged Ultra-Rightwing Royalists to attack Mr Chotisak. Ms Jitra Kotchadej, Chairwoman of the Triumph workers union has also been made a target for violence by The Manager media. Ms Jitra was singled out because she wore a T-shirt supporting the right to different views in society, including not standing up at the cinema. Both Mr Chotisak and Ms Jitra's photographs and home addresses were published alongside urges to attack them.

The Manager media also encouraged people to attack and break up a meeting on Human Rights at Thammasart University recently.

Those signing the open letter compare the behaviour of The Manager with the past behaviour of Rightwing media such as Dao Sayam newspaper and the Tank Corps radio station in inciting violence that led to the 6th October 1976 blood bath.

The letter calls on people to boycott The Manager media group for abusing basic human rights. The letter also calls on P.A.D. leaders Somsak Kosaisuk, Pipop Thongchai and Somkiat Pongpaiboon to come out and officially condemn The Manager. "

http://www.prachatai.com/english/news.php?id=642

The courage of Mr. Chotisak and Ms Jitra Kotchadej cannot be understated. In a society that has been thoroughly conditioned and brainwashed into thinking a certain way it takes a lot of balls and clarity of purpose to go against the might of the establishment. They have literally put their lives on the line to point out a major fault in the freedom of expression, that the lese majeste laws are frequently used to silence any debate on the activities of the military. When Thai intellectuals started discussing the problems of miltary patronage on the Sameskybooks website forum , the site came under attack in what the FACT ( Freedom Against Censorship in Thailand ) lobby group called " "cyberterrorism " . The site was flooded with anti royalist remarks by provocateurs forcing its ISP to reject its client leading to the closure of the site. And yet, some people are immune to prosecution. Sondhi has fallen foul of these laws on several occasions and yet is still free as a bird while people like Darunee ' Da Torpedo ' have immediatly been locked up and refused bail. It does make you wonder WHY he gets away with it and who is giving the nod ??????