Bmw 740il Engine Swap

[irrigator]

Just had a 2jz gte twin turbo fitted to the beemer (the original 4.4ltr engine died a nasty death and was going to cost 150K to repair)

The shop that did the job assured me time after time that all electrics would be OK.... Dead wrong. Nothing working and all sorts of warnings, buzzers......

Anybody know of a shop that could sort this mess ??

[CroBiker]

I had 328i until few years ago. BMW electronics are one sensitive SOB. The only competent people for this kind of job are Performance Motors or Barcelona Motors, BMW authorized dealers and service. They do good job but will skin you alive.

[irrigator]

I had 328i until few years ago. BMW electronics are one sensitive SOB. The only competent people for this kind of job are Performance Motors or Barcelona Motors, BMW authorized dealers and service. They do good job but will skin you alive.

I know "Barcelona" very well. They have indeed separated me from a lot of my pennies !!

Not sure how they would look upon a 2JZ in one of "their " cars.......I was rather hoping for a lead on a swap shop that knows about beemers..... thanks anyway.

[initiala4]

Well knowing that you probably fitted on the models that has data lines just to name a few : instrument console/air condition module/immo its going to take a long time to sort it out.....

[philipm]

why dont u just obd 2 it and figure out what error codes u have....,

[Dakhar]

why dont u just obd 2 it and figure out what error codes u have....,

I doubt very seriously the OBD works with this set up. If it did, I imagine there would be zero problems at this point in time in the first place.

150K is probably what is going to be spent eventually, just to get this to work in the long wrong. Prognosis, is poor.

Wow... a real 740 engine in Thailand (more impressive while working) is a rare thing to behold.

[Cuban]

Anybody know of a shop that could sort this mess ??

I am sorry that this post will not aid your quest at all.

The shop that did the job assured me time after time that all electrics would be OK.... Dead wrong. Nothing working and all sorts of warnings, buzzers......

I would assume that they meant 'electrics', that when you turned the key it would start and turn signals and headlights would function as expected (mostly).

Just had a 2jz gte twin turbo fitted to the beemer (the original 4.4ltr engine died a nasty death and was going to cost 150K to repair)

Take the brain of a monkey and put it in a dog, it wonders why bananas now taste funny and it keeps falling out of trees.

Sir, you have made a frankenstein car, you can not expect any of the BMW control sytems to have a hope in h3ll of working out what is happening. Even if you could identify what system input needs to be connected to what sensor, on that engine the sensor probably does not exist and if it could be fitted it's calibration would be out - to fix that you need to be able to change the code running in the engine control computers. It is simply beyond what is cost effective unless you have access to BMW programers and can blow new ROM control chips. 150k Baht would be cheap. Finding someone that would do that in Thailand .

As for the driver's computer - take it out - sell it and fill the space with a better sound system.

Accept the fact that it only looks like a BMW on the outside now, it's value is not what it was so fit a gas conversion to benifit from the fuel saving and drive it.

Edited September 25, 2008 by Cuban

[matter]

Cuban is correct.

We have just finished installing a 1UZ into an E46, using a stand alone engine management system. After hours of analysis and work with the electrician we finally ended up binning the original BMW dash and fitting an aftermarket one (used in the Ariel Atom).

It is (almost) an impossibility to get all the BMW dash and sensors working with a Toyota engine. And if the electrician we use cannot do it, I very much doubt there is anyone in Thailand who can.

Sorry for the bad news. Do you wanna sell the BMW engine?

[irrigator]

Cuban is correct.

We have just finished installing a 1UZ into an E46, using a stand alone engine management system. After hours of analysis and work with the electrician we finally ended up binning the original BMW dash and fitting an aftermarket one (used in the Ariel Atom).

It is (almost) an impossibility to get all the BMW dash and sensors working with a Toyota engine. And if the electrician we use cannot do it, I very much doubt there is anyone in Thailand who can.

Sorry for the bad news. Do you wanna sell the BMW engine?

Cuban / Matter,

I am aware that we have created frankenstien but let me try to put this into perspective.......I have had nothing but trouble with the original motor from the day I got it (6 months ago) and it has left me stranded on at least 3 occasions (and has sepnt more time in the shop than on the road) and when it finally decided to internally self destruct I decided enough was enough. Everything I have read about the 2JZ's has been good and from what I understand they are pretty much bulletproof unlike the M62. In terms of output they are almost the same 282hp (M62) and 280/320 (2JZ..depending what type of impellers are fitted). I travel a lot between my house in Lopburi and my farm in Mahasarakam and I need to be able to get in my car without wondering if we are going to make it. Trust me,on that cross country route they aren't too many BMW dealers along the roadside.....

That said, I am not concerned about resale value, the whole reason for getting the thing in the first place was for the comfort and safety which I will still have regardless of what motor is under the bonnet. I just want the basic information to work like speedometer, fuel guage and if it's not asking too much, the cruise control. The on board computer is not important and the diagnostics display has never worked properly. Remember as well that this is a 12 year old motor car but has been a pleasure to drive(when it was working) and still is. I have recently been relegated to using my 1 year old Triton for all my journeys so you can probably understand why I would dearly like to have the beemota back on the road......

[stingray]

First of all the 2 JZ will be underpowered. The enginje has 225 hp. The engine only!!! Japanese carmakers allways proud of their "SAE horsepowers". Germans mesure the horsepower on the rear axle. Thay call "DIN Horsepower". There is at least a 30% lost. So a 2 JZ engine (non Turbo) will end up with a bout 160hp on the rear axle. Anoehter thing: The torque will be around 30% less than the Towrque of the Bmer engine (i gess the beamer was a V8). 1 or 2 JZ are excellent engines for swapping in older middle size cars like Toyota Crown, BMW 520i year 1987, or a Volvo 940, etc. There is no problem with the coversation of a 2 JZ engine. But a 740 Beamer is a High Tech Car and if tis for example a year 2002 or later model, it will NEVER working with the electronics again. The electronics are the most diffdcult things today and very time consuming to connect all the right sensors and instruments. Already RPM meter will show you the wrong informatiuons, because V8 and V6 are not the same and can you imagine a japanese dashboard in a nice beamer? How ugli? It's the similas case with all the american classic cars ending up with a japanese dashboard and a 95 horsepower Isuzu diesel. Sorry to tell you, but i think you just f... up your car.

[Cuban]

In reply:

I am aware that we have created frankenstien but let me try to put this into perspective.......I have had nothing but trouble with the original motor from the day I got it (6 months ago) and it has left me stranded on at least 3 occasions...

OK - sounds like an upgrade, but from the OP we don't know the age of the car. I agree that spending about a fifth of it's value is borderline cost effective if you have doubts about it's history, which I assume you have because of the trouble you mention.

What was the cost of the replacement fitted?

Did you consider gas/LPG - you have the space in the trunk?

I travel a lot between my house in Lopburi and my farm in Mahasarakam...

I know the area - yes there is a marked lack of BMW dealers in the region.

I just want the basic information to work like speedometer, fuel guage and if it's not asking too much, the cruise control.

It is a long time since I played with the insides of cars, cheaper and time efficent to get others to do this now days - if I had the time and workshop I would fiddle. So my comments are worth what you paid from them, just time reading. I understand that most speedos take their input from a sensor on the gearbox, are you running with the original gearbox? Fuel guage 'should' (?) be a simple float measure in the tank. But whether there is in fact a clever sensor (pressure) that needs processing to give a reading might cause you issues. I think you will find cruise control is history, think monkey trying to hold on to a branch with that dog's tail.

Even if the cruise control is aware that you are running at X speed from a sensor on the speedo circuit, it won't stand a chance of being able to feed back to the Toyota engine it needs a little more/less gas to maintain that speed.

I would be happy that the tacho were working. I would worry about the temperature guage and if that were showing a true measure. With newer cars (I consider yours to be such a 'new' car.) so much of the whole system is wired and fed back to the computer/engine management system that when you move outside of the same brand/species you can no longer trust the choices that the EMS makes.

I had a cheap 3 Series that I 'let go' when over heating started to be an issue.

[matter]

You could wire in a few aftermarket stand alone gauges that will show you RPM, water temp and oil temp etc.

[Plus]

I have no idea what I'm talking about, but would it be possible to fix in a programmable ECU that is compatible both with BMW and Toyota engines? It would presumably read all BMW sensors and control Toyota engine at the same time. Even cruise control is theoretically possible if ECU knows what to tell the engine.

Toyota ECU that came with JZ obviously not meant to process all of bimmer's information.

[Cuban]

....programmable ECU that is compatible both with BMW and Toyota engines? It would presumably read all BMW sensors and control Toyota engine at the same time.

If the image link is broken.

[irrigator]

....programmable ECU that is compatible both with BMW and Toyota engines? It would presumably read all BMW sensors and control Toyota engine at the same time.

If the image link is broken.

Your humour has no bounds.....

[Plus]

While I seriously doubt that there are ECUs out there as sophisticated as 740 but I bet the OPs car is not the latest version. Independent makers could have caught up with it already.

I'm also not sure about the use of DIN/SOE numbers here. I don't think that every bimmer has 30% more power than officially stated, comparing to Japanese. Someone would have noticed.

[BSJ]

Hi irrigator, it's not all gloom and doom if you go about it the right way.

To run the 2jz engine you can use a Motec or similar ecu. But you need to ensure the ignition pulses go thru a digital converter cos your tacho is expecting an 8 sequence, not 6. Maybe on the back of the instrument cluster is a switch to run a 6 cos the same dash goes in the 735. That would be easy!

All your dashboard electronics are in a seperate unit, right? If not working get someone to fix it.

Hope it all works out for ya.

[submaniac]

Irrigator, I applaud you for trying this swap. The 2jz-GTE swap has been done before on the 3 series cars, but I have never heard of it done in a 740. So I guess you are the 'guinea pig' on this one, and I don't think anyone else will have any 'for sure' answers. At the bare minimum you would need a stand alone ECU as BSJ suggested, as there is no way the factory BMW ECU could handle the supra engine. Motec is good (real good, but $$$), AEM offers a cheaper alternative and is also very good. But without a stand alone, the standard BMW ECU (the brain) will be managing the engine, and receiving signals from the sensors, as if it were the BMW engine, which it is not. You need a stand alone ECU to reprogram the parameters for the engine, and you will need it tuned on a dyno to get the proper performance. You cannot reprogram the standard BMW ECU, and that is why you need a stand alone.

Is your car an OBD I or OBD II? My experience from FI is on the NSX, and the later model NSX's ran an OBD II with throttle by wire, and was causing problems with a stand alone unit. What you have done is not Mickey Mouse work, and will need mechanics familiar with forced induction, engine dyno tuning, and ECU programing to really make it work. Without the stand alone, it really will be a mickey mouse project and you will never get it to run properly.

[keemapoot]

2JZ-GTE swaps are done routinely in Thailand in W116 and W126 S Class Mercedes. They work well reportedly. I own an S class and have been advised if my engine ever develops serious problems to just to the swap without thinking about it. I can tell you from experience that parts for Merecedes are very difficult and expensive to obtain. You're better off replacing the engine and gearbox with the high end Toyota, even opting for the dual Turbo, which produces more torque and HP then the original Mercedes engines.

As far as the electronics on the Bimmer, yes, that is a problem. I've owned several, including a 7 series, and there is no easy solution. You'll have to go to aftermarket gauges I'm afraid and strip out the wiring I think.

[irrigator]

Irrigator, I applaud you for trying this swap. The 2jz-GTE swap has been done before on the 3 series cars, but I have never heard of it done in a 740. So I guess you are the 'guinea pig' on this one, and I don't think anyone else will have any 'for sure' answers. At the bare minimum you would need a stand alone ECU as BSJ suggested, as there is no way the factory BMW ECU could handle the supra engine. Motec is good (real good, but $$$), AEM offers a cheaper alternative and is also very good. But without a stand alone, the standard BMW ECU (the brain) will be managing the engine, and receiving signals from the sensors, as if it were the BMW engine, which it is not. You need a stand alone ECU to reprogram the parameters for the engine, and you will need it tuned on a dyno to get the proper performance. You cannot reprogram the standard BMW ECU, and that is why you need a stand alone.

Is your car an OBD I or OBD II? My experience from FI is on the NSX, and the later model NSX's ran an OBD II with throttle by wire, and was causing problems with a stand alone unit. What you have done is not Mickey Mouse work, and will need mechanics familiar with forced induction, engine dyno tuning, and ECU programing to really make it work. Without the stand alone, it really will be a mickey mouse project and you will never get it to run properly.

Thanks BSJ and submaniac,

Do you guys know of anybody in Thailand who can do this ?? I have no idea if my car is OBD 1 or 2. It is a 1996 740iL with the newer M62 engine.

[submaniac]

Irrigator, I applaud you for trying this swap. The 2jz-GTE swap has been done before on the 3 series cars, but I have never heard of it done in a 740. So I guess you are the 'guinea pig' on this one, and I don't think anyone else will have any 'for sure' answers. At the bare minimum you would need a stand alone ECU as BSJ suggested, as there is no way the factory BMW ECU could handle the supra engine. Motec is good (real good, but $$$), AEM offers a cheaper alternative and is also very good. But without a stand alone, the standard BMW ECU (the brain) will be managing the engine, and receiving signals from the sensors, as if it were the BMW engine, which it is not. You need a stand alone ECU to reprogram the parameters for the engine, and you will need it tuned on a dyno to get the proper performance. You cannot reprogram the standard BMW ECU, and that is why you need a stand alone.

Is your car an OBD I or OBD II? My experience from FI is on the NSX, and the later model NSX's ran an OBD II with throttle by wire, and was causing problems with a stand alone unit. What you have done is not Mickey Mouse work, and will need mechanics familiar with forced induction, engine dyno tuning, and ECU programing to really make it work. Without the stand alone, it really will be a mickey mouse project and you will never get it to run properly.

Thanks BSJ and submaniac,

Do you guys know of anybody in Thailand who can do this ?? I have no idea if my car is OBD 1 or 2. It is a 1996 740iL with the newer M62 engine.

Hi Irrigator,

Unfortunately, I do not know of a shop in Thailand. I don't even own a car here (yet). You could do a google search on "Dyno tuning" in Thailand, or post on this forum for shops with experience in dyno tuning and Forced Induction (FI) because they would know how to handle this. Your keywords for a google search are "Dyno Tuning" and "Forced Induction". My experience is from my Acura NSX, which I had done at Autowave in Huntington Beach. They incidentally won Sports Compact Cars Magazine ultimate streetcar shootout a year or two ago, so I do have a little bit of knowlege.

Your ECU (engine control unit) is a problem 100%. You may face other problems in your swap, but the ECU is 100% a problem, and your car simply will not run correctly until you get the engine management fixed. I am going to tell you a little more about how it all works so it can help you in your search of who to go to to have it all sorted out. I hope this will give you a better idea of what you need to have done.

The ECU is the 'brains' of the car and engine. There are sensors inside the engine that monitor the engine, and send signals to the ECU on how to behave. For example if the sensors on the engine sense premature detonation ("knocking"), it will send the signals to the ECU which will in turn tell the engine to retard the timing. You have a Toyota six cylinder turbo engine. The ECU in your car is a BMW, and thinks it still has a BMW V8 in there. So when it gets signals from the Toyota V6 that are way off from what a BMW V8 should be doing, it's going to go haywire.

The way to fix this is to have an ECU programmed for what is appropriate for a Toyota V6 Turbo. This is the problem you have. A Toyota ECU will not fit/work in a BMW, and the BMW ECU does not know how to handle the Toyota engine. In some cars, like the Honda Civic for which there are so many people that modify it and there is subsequently alot of aftermarket support, some companies can remap the ECU. Basically they change the programmed parameters (timing, air fuel ratio, etc.) that came from the factory for better performance. Your swap is unique, I have never heard of anyone doing a 740 engine swap before, so that's not an option for you.

Your ONLY option is to replace the factory BMW ECU with a stand alone ECU. An AEM or Electormotive Tec 4 replaces the ECU, and it is like a little computer that you can program with your own parameters any way you like. When you see it done (this is what was done on MY car), it works like this. They put your car on a Dyno, they plug in the Stand Alone into the car, and a laptop computer into the Stand Alone. They run the car on the dyno, checking horsepower and torque on the dyno at different RPM's, while simultaneously they check what the air fuel ratio and timing on the car through the ECU and laptop (also at the different RPM'S). They do several runs on the dyno, modifying the parameters of the ECU (fuel ratio and timing) for the best performance AND SAFETY. Sometimes, they may change the size of the fuel injectors to control the amount of fuel delivered to the cylinders. We're not talking just about performance. Without proper engine management, the engine can destroy itself. If the ECU is sending too much fuel to the cylinders, there's no perormance. Too little, and the engine is running lean which will result in detonation, and your engine potentially turning into a grenade, or at the very least a very heavy, expensive paperweight.

This is not a mickey mouse procedure either. You need to find a shop that has experience dyno tuning cars. Like on a computer, you need both the hardware and the software. You changed the hardware on your car (engine), but the software needs to be adjusted to, and it needs to be adjusted properly. And there is NO POSSIBLE WAY that your car will run properly until you get the engine management. No way.

I think your swap is brilliant, and I am actually excited you are doing this. You should check on the various BMW forums on the internet and ask there because there are numerous people who have done Supra engine swaps in the E36's. So there is a basis of experience from which you can build. I agree with Keemapoot here. In Thailand parts for a BMW are expensive. Toyota parts are much cheaper. So is labor in Thailand, so it probably was more feasible to do the swap then continue to fix a problem engine.

As to OBD I or OBD II, if it is a 1996, most likely it is OBD II. OBD is On Board Diagnostics. OBD I is the previous generation and the ECU only controlled some functions. OBD II is more comprehensive, and the ECU controls alot more things. For example on the Acura NSX, it was throttle by wire where the speed was controlled electronically rather than by a manual throttle cable. OBD II is more problematic because the ECU controls so many things. But folks with NSX's managed to deal with OBD II on their cars, so I think that it can be handled on your car. Good luck, and keep us informed of how it goes.

[Plus]

I haven't read the whole previous post yet, but I have one objection - I expect they have swapped his original ECU for Toyota one. JZs are usually imported in complete sets - engine, ECU, four speed auto transmission.

They could have swapped the tranny but kept the original gear lever.

It could be a different story if the original was manual, manual Toyota would cost extra 15k, they'd tell him that. Still, the ECU is most likely been replaced already.

[irrigator]

I haven't read the whole previous post yet, but I have one objection - I expect they have swapped his original ECU for Toyota one. JZs are usually imported in complete sets - engine, ECU, four speed auto transmission.

They could have swapped the tranny but kept the original gear lever.

It could be a different story if the original was manual, manual Toyota would cost extra 15k, they'd tell him that. Still, the ECU is most likely been replaced already.

Submaniac / Plus,

Yes the ECU and transmission have been replaced which is why a lot of the things are not working, I suppose.... I have driven the car as it is now and the engine is great. Quiet, smooth and oodles of power, certainly no less than the M62. I am very pleased with that side of things. At this stage it appears that the OBD and OBC are not working, as well as the fuel gauge, speedometer and cruise control. My guess is that they will not be able to do anything with either the OBD or OBC but I can live with that. The OBD was already faulty and the OBC is more of a gimmick but I really would like the gauges to work. They currently still have the car and I should know more today so will let you know more later.

[Naam]

First of all the 2 JZ will be underpowered. The enginje has 225 hp. The engine only!!! Japanese carmakers allways proud of their "SAE horsepowers". Germans mesure the horsepower on the rear axle. Thay call "DIN Horsepower". There is at least a 30% lost.

that's not quite correct Stingray as "our" DIN PS are measured before transmission (net output engine, all power users switched on). the HP to deduct varies between 15 and 30%

[kartman]

All these posts indirectly confirm that the latest hi end vehicles with hi-tech electronics, and in the future low end when all the gizmo's filter down will become totally worthless even sooner ok in markets where most vehicles are company owned or leased but Thailand?, looks like it could be a revival of the model T.

[Plus]

Not at all, I think there a consolidation trend in the industry, with makers sharing same components between various brands within their stable. Like Nissan and Renault, or GM and Daewoo.

Just like in the computer world where there are thousands of companies producing millions of pieces of hardware that all complies with some accepted standards - if it doesn't fit in a generic box, you can't sell it. BMW 7 series will always be a niche product, though.

Mass brands, like Toyota, can already share lots of components between different models.

My Sportrider has 2jz engine, different ECU, different autobox but the same gear lever and panel, and completely different digital display screen that is fully compatible with my original sensors. Just plugged it in and it works, all the same data, no probs so far.

All these components are branded as Toyota, but, in reality, they'd been outsourced to suppliers who might produce them for some other brands, too. They just comply with Toyota standards.

[Badbanker]

I have been involved with doing this sort of conversion for about the last 10 years.

Most people go for a 1UZ transplant for a larger car. 2JZGTE from a supra will give you the power you need and easily be more than an original 740.

The big problem is that you will NEVER get the instrumentation linked up to the engine and gearbox management computer.

There are people that specialise in doing the hybrid wiring system and are very good at getting the gauges of less complex cars to function. Because the BM gauges are so closely linked to the engine management system I believe you will have to do a hybrid of both ECU and management systems or get a new high end Toyota Dashboard and fit it in place of the BM one.

These conversion people are really amazing to see working! We did a 1 JZ into a Jeep Cherokee about 7 years ago using the original Aisin auto transmission but changing the bellhousing. This was the first one and took about 3 weeks of experimentation to get the wiring interface sorted out so it would change gear and give performance.

When I think of all the headaches we had back then, today the 1jz and 2jz are a very common transplant into the Cherokee!

There are people that can help you as BM's get older there are many transplants being done! You just got to speak Thai WELL and hunt around a LOT till you get you solution.

BB

[torrenova]

Fascinating for me to read as someone with no knowledge of this sort of thing but it does raise some qustions.

If the original problem could have been sorted for 150k then what saving is there with all this mess if it can even eventually be made to work ?

How acceptable is it that all the EMS system will not work ? or you have new dials here and there ?

Why not just flog the original and buy a new one ?

[BSJ]

Hi folks, on Wednesday I was talking to my mate about the problem, and with a straight face he said "Been done before, not a problem"! And if he says that I know it's true! But it's a long way from Bayswater to Bangkok! Best to Google it till you find someone close.

[Datsun240Z]

So if I get it right? You are using the 2JZ Engines electrics managment, and ECU etc, combining with the BMW dash electrics? And want to link it together?

You should use of one brand, in this case from the Toyota, both engine managment electronics and the originele toyota dash electronics.