Pay Taxes, Without Working

[Gumballl]

I was just reading another thread concerning the 12-month extension of stay for a foreigner who has a Non-Imm O visa based on his marriage to a Thai woman.

If I understand correctly from other threads, the foreigner must prove that they earn at least 40K baht per month, with or without the wife's help... and pay an appropriate amount of tax in Thailand. Is this correct?

Is it possible to not work, yet pay tax on 40K baht (and get receipt), and still qualify for the 12-month extension of stay? Basically, from Thailand's perspective, they probably could care less if I work... what they really want at the end of the day is tax revenue. Is this legal? A loophole?

Edited September 30, 2008 by Gumballl

[dr_Pat_Pong]

I was just reading another thread concerning the 12-month extension of stay for a foreigner who has a Non-Imm O visa based on his marriage to a Thai woman.

If I understand correctly from other threads, the foreigner must prove that they earn at least 40K baht per month, with or without the wife's help... and pay an appropriate amount of tax in Thailand. Is this correct?

Is it possible to not work, yet pay tax on 40K baht (and get receipt), and still qualify for the 12-month extension of stay? Basically, from Thailand's perspective, they probably could care less if I work... what they really want at the end of the day is tax revenue. Is this legal? A loophole?

As I understand it that can be done. Contact SunbeltAsis for absolutely uptodate advice.

[ubonjoe]

I would call it loophole.

Its a way to show the income if you can't do it any other way. IE: income letter from consulate

It somethning that came up after they changed the rules to where you can't show 400K in the bank anymore.

If you look at the other posts on this it's even possible to do it and not pay any tax because of deductions and the first 150,000 being exempt from tax.

Edited September 30, 2008 by ubonjoe

[Gumballl]

I would call it loophole.

Its a way to show the income if you can't do it any other way. IE: income letter from consulate

It somethning that came up after they changed the rules to where you can't show 400K in the bank anymore.

If you look at the other posts on this it's even possible to do it and not pay any tax because of deductions and the first 150,000 being exempt from tax.

40K/month * 12 months = 480K

If I deduct 150K from this amount, I am left with 330K. It would take a lot of deductions to get out of paying tax on that amount. All I have is my wife and two kids. Should I have more kids??

[ubonjoe]

The last I saw on that was using an income of 20,000 each.

I calculated and got 2400 a month. Which would be cheaper in the long run than making visa/border runs.

I can get the letter from my consulate but am looking at it to meet the requirements for a permanent residence application. For that I only need 30,000 a month.

[Mario2008]

IIf I understand correctly from other threads, the foreigner must prove that they earn at least 40K baht per month, with or without the wife's help... and pay an appropriate amount of tax in Thailand. Is this correct?

No. For income earned within Thailand you/your wife must show tax receipts. For income from abroad you need a letter from your embassy stating your income and you don't ned to pay tax over that in Thailand.

[TerryLH]

Besides the 150k exemption you also get deductions for you, you spouse and for the two kids. You can also take deductions for Thai inlaws if you support them. The inlaws don't have to live with you.

You 30k

Spouse 30k

each child 15k each. If they go to school there is an additional 2 k each for the kids.

Life ins premiums are also deductable I think.

[ubonjoe]

Tax info is available here: http://www.rd.go.th/publish/6045.0.html

I did a calculation splitting the income to 20,000 each. And the tax comes out to zero.

240,000 - 90000 deductions and exemptions = 150,000 - 150,000 = 0

I don't if this can be done but it seems possible.

[Martian]

Tax info is available here: http://www.rd.go.th/publish/6045.0.html

I did a calculation splitting the income to 20,000 each. And the tax comes out to zero.

240,000 - 90000 deductions and exemptions = 150,000 - 150,000 = 0

I don't if this can be done but it seems possible.

Doesn't one need a work permit in order to earn income in Thailand and thus claim the income for taxation purposes in order to get the tax documents to qualify for the NON-O based on marriage and 40,000 Baht monthly income?

Ok, back to the basic question: What about work permit?

2nd scenario: If I am actually teaching in Thailand, can that income be used towards the 40,000 Baht/month requirement? I thought I read somewhere that it cannot???????

Martian

Edited September 30, 2008 by Martian

[astral]

You definitely do NOT need a work permit to be liable to pay tax.

Anyone residing in Thailand for more than 180 days in a year is liable

for tax on income. Anyone can apply for a tax card.

There are some generally accepted exceptions:

For retired people, all income from overseas is assumed to be pension which has been taxed at source.

If you can show that the money you bring in is from savings, earned in a previous year, then there is no tax.

Showing a payment of tax in your home country where there is a Double Tax agreement.

For Martian, you are working in Thailand and DO need a work permit..

However none of this helps the OP who just wants to pay tax to get his yearly extension.

[Gumballl]

Tax info is available here: http://www.rd.go.th/publish/6045.0.html

I did a calculation splitting the income to 20,000 each. And the tax comes out to zero.

240,000 - 90000 deductions and exemptions = 150,000 - 150,000 = 0

I don't if this can be done but it seems possible.

It seems that the spouse would be left with no deductions, and hence would be liable for tax on the 20K/month.

Btw, a little background about myself... I am not a retiree... only 41 years old, and caught between Thai law and the middle of nowhere Thailand.

Edited September 30, 2008 by Gumballl

[Martian]

You definitely do NOT need a work permit to be liable to pay tax.

Anyone residing in Thailand for more than 180 days in a year is liable

for tax on income. Anyone can apply for a tax card.

There are some generally accepted exceptions:

For retired people, all income from overseas is assumed to be pension which has been taxed at source.

If you can show that the money you bring in is from savings, earned in a previous year, then there is no tax.

Showing a payment of tax in your home country where there is a Double Tax agreement.

For Martian, you are working in Thailand and DO need a work permit..

However none of this helps the OP who just wants to pay tax to get his yearly extension.

Thanks for the reply and I do understand that being a teacher in Thailand requires the WP. I was trying to present the first question exclusive of the "2nd scenario".

My 2nd scenario question hasn't been addressed as to if teaching income CAN be applied towards the monthly 40,000 Baht requirement or not?????? I thought I read somewhere it couldn't be, which doesn't make sense to me since it is income derived in Thailand and taxes are paid accordingly upon that income.

Thanks to everyone taking the time to post here!

Regards,

Martian

[ubonjoe]

2nd scenario: If I am actually teaching in Thailand, can that income be used towards the 40,000 Baht/month requirement? I thought I read somewhere that it cannot???????

Martian

Never heard of it and never read it anywhere. The only on thing immigration wants to see is some proof on income. Either taxes or letter from conulate.

Makes no sense to me that teacher income would be excluded.

[ubonjoe]

Tax info is available here: http://www.rd.go.th/publish/6045.0.html

I did a calculation splitting the income to 20,000 each. And the tax comes out to zero.

240,000 - 90000 deductions and exemptions = 150,000 - 150,000 = 0

I don't if this can be done but it seems possible.

It seems that the spouse would be left with no deductions, and hence would be liable for tax on the 20K/month.

Btw, a little background about myself... I am not a retiree... only 41 years old, and caught between Thai law and the middle of nowhere Thailand.

The other half is the same 60,000 and 30,000 no spouse in the calculation.

Theres lots of ways to work the tax angle I think. I am thinking of having my wife do it under agriculture becasue thats something she has already got going. Not much income now but there are 650 rubber trees growing. Just need to find an accountant/book keeper to set it up.

[astral]

I guess that depends on what you mean by Teaching Income.

Your work as a teacher will be taxed by the school, but I have a feeling you mean

private teaching, with no receipts and no WP?

Which is why you are interested in the OP's question......

Can any Thai members tell us how to declare part-time income etc

on the yearly tax form?

Surely there must be a way?

[TerryLH]

The Labor Office once asked me if I had any 'extra' income from tutoring to declare. They would have included any amount I told them on the form and calculated tax for it.

They don't care if you have a work permit, or not.

Immigration does care about the WP.

Some of the following is an assumption, but an accurate one I think.

If you teach, and have a WP, the school will give you a form showing earnings to pay taxes on.

If you need more income to qualify for a Non O (married to a Thai) visa, you could have the tax office add the extra amount you need on Form 91 and pay taxes on it at the same time as your real earnings.

You'd get one receipt for the whole amount. That along with your WP should satisfy immigration because there would be nothing to seperate money earned with a WP and that earned without.

[Fidelius]

Is it possible to not work, yet pay tax on 40K baht (and get receipt), and still qualify for the 12-month extension of stay? ...

I understand that the Thai wife can pay income tax and get tax receipts on a fictitious income and in some cases the immigration office in fact suggested this solution to them.

Can a foreigner also get tax receipts on a fictitious income in Thailand? The last post of TerryLH suggests that it is possible. Get a tax ID, declare an income that you don’t really have, no work permit asked for, pay the tax on it if any is due, and you get your marriage extension. Making it a fictitious income of 20k/month each for yourself and your Thai wife, very little or no tax at all may be due. Receipts for zero tax paid are also valid for the application for extension; it is the declared gross income on the tax receipts that matters.

Has any foreigner who has no work permit ever gone this route?

Edited September 30, 2008 by Fidelius

[phaethon]

I may be missing sommething here but...

Someone is married to a Thai and has taxed income from official teaching job with WP and untaxed private tuition not covered by WP. You need a joint income of a certain level for visa renewal.

So can't you pay the wife a salary to make up the difference between official earnings and visa threshold? She doesn't have to declare where the money comes from (work as PT maid, snake catcher, begging or whatever) and it gets used (after tax) to pay housekeeping/rent/occasional holidays to Rio...

Alternatively can't the private tutoring money be 'laundered' through the employer? They keep a couple of % and put it through their books as if they are hiring you out under the existing WP? (Needs a trustworthy and non-greedy employer, granted )

Edited September 30, 2008 by phaethon

[Martian]

I guess that depends on what you mean by Teaching Income.

Your work as a teacher will be taxed by the school, but I have a feeling you mean

private teaching, with no receipts and no WP?

Which is why you are interested in the OP's question......

Can any Thai members tell us how to declare part-time income etc

on the yearly tax form?

Surely there must be a way?

I was referring only to the income from teaching made above the table with the work permit, not additional "illegal" work. I just recall somewhere on the board that someone had to have the 40,000 Baht income not counting his teaching income. Perhaps I am not remembering it correctly or that poster was indeed teaching illegally and therefore didn't want to include the income.

On another related topic: Does anyone have any specific information about the first 2-year income exemption for teachers....forms, procedures etc??????

Thanks for all the replies and ideas!

Regards,

Martian

[digitalchromakey]

Can a foreigner also get tax receipts on a fictitious income in Thailand? The last post of TerryLH suggests that it is possible. Get a tax ID, declare an income that you don't really have, no work permit asked for, pay the tax on it if any is due, and you get your marriage extension. Making it a fictitious income of 20k/month each for yourself and your Thai wife, very little or no tax at all may be due. Receipts for zero tax paid are also valid for the application for extension; it is the declared gross income on the tax receipts that matters.

You can pay the tax. The problem is that immigration will want to see your Work Permit, etc, if you declare income in Thailand.

[ubonjoe]

You can pay the tax. The problem is that immigration will want to see your Work Permit, etc, if you declare income in Thailand.

Thus far this discussion has all been theoretical. We have yet to see a report from anybody that has done it.

As far as work permit being ask for by immigration we also don't know the answer to that. The act says only proof of income by showing tax receipts and or a letter from consulate.

The best way would be to show all income as coming from the wife if it is income gained form work that is not done on a work permit. If its income from outside the country that does not meet the requirements that the individuals respective consulate requires then paying taxes on that income and showing your bank book that has transfers from outside the country should be enough. Income can also be from the following sources.

4) income in the nature of dividends, interest on deposits with banks in Thailand, shares of profits or other benefits from a juristic company, juristic partnership, or mutual fund, payments received as a result of the reduction of capital, a bonus, an increased capital holdings, gains from amalgamation, acquisition or dissolution of juristic companies or partnerships, and gains from transferring of shares or partnership holdings;

The above from the revenue department link posted earlier. It also has info that defines other sources of income and how is it is reported and taxes paid.

How to pay the taxes will be up to the individual and their wife. And also possibly the advise of a qualified professional.

[digitalchromakey]

As far as work permit being ask for by immigration we also don't know the answer to that. The act says only proof of income by showing tax receipts and or a letter from consulate.

In reality - Immigration normally demand to see a work permit, etc, against any 'salary income' generated in Thailand.

[ubonjoe]

As far as work permit being ask for by immigration we also don't know the answer to that. The act says only proof of income by showing tax receipts and or a letter from consulate.

In reality - Immigration normally demand to see a work permit, etc, against any 'salary income' generated in Thailand.

For a non-o married to a Thai? I also stated it would be best to add that income to the wifes income.

[digitalchromakey]

For a non-o married to a Thai? I also stated it would be best to add that income to the wifes income.

Yes, if they are declaring tax on a wage earned in Thailand. Obviously, if they don't have a work permit then they would have to try and 'hide' such an income.

My posting that you replied to contained the answer to the question

Can a foreigner also get tax receipts on a fictitious income in Thailand?

My answer was that if a foreigner showed a tax return showing 'income' in Thailand then yes immigration will want to see the relevant paper work plus a work permit.

Your post then stated

As far as work permit being ask for by immigration we also don't know the answer to that. The act says only proof of income by showing tax receipts and or a letter from consulate.

I replied

In reality - Immigration normally demand to see a work permit, etc, against any 'salary income' generated in Thailand.

Hope it's clear now

[astral]

Can a foreigner also get tax receipts on a fictitious income in Thailand? The last post of TerryLH suggests that it is possible. Get a tax ID, declare an income that you don’t really have, no work permit asked for, pay the tax on it if any is due, and you get your marriage extension. Making it a fictitious income of 20k/month each for yourself and your Thai wife, very little or no tax at all may be due. Receipts for zero tax paid are also valid for the application for extension; it is the declared gross income on the tax receipts that matters.

Has any foreigner who has no work permit ever gone this route?

Income from inside Thailand will be suspicious, unless you have a WP,

or can show that the income comes from a valid source, e.g. investment.

Otherwise get a Tax ID and declare an income from overseas.

I guess the tax office will want to see evidence of the money coming in.

They will willingly take your tax and give a receipt.

At one time I was being chased by the Tax office about my income

but I never ended up actually paying tax as I was able to show that tax had already been

paid in the UK.

[TerryLH]

"As far as work permit being ask for by immigration we also don't know the answer to that."

I think that's been answered in the last couple of posts.

It's on the list of requirements given to me by imm for documents needed to get a non O, if you are working. If you aren't, obviously it's not required.

[rishi]

Is it possible to not work, yet pay tax on 40K baht (and get receipt), and still qualify for the 12-month extension of stay? Basically, from Thailand's perspective, they probably could care less if I work... what they really want at the end of the day is tax revenue. Is this legal? A loophole?

It would be of no surprise if there has been at least one example of someone who has got a 1-year extension on some immigration office somewhere in Thailand based on only that - so (academically spoken) the short answer would probably be, yes ... In real life, however, the more interesting question is how lucky do you feel?

Your assumption of the importance of tax revenue in this context is basically wrong - the immigration officers down at your local office couldn't care less about how much tax you are paying - that's not their department. Their objective is to ascertain that your presence in Thailand is perfectly legal - at least regarding their own regulations. Although proper tax-documentation play s a major role in regarding wether you meet income requirements they're happy to accept a receipt for zero tax revenue as long as the supporting paper works show that gross income meets the requirements.

As for proper documentation of Thai based income one should be very prepared that not only are the docs explicitly mentioned in the policeorder required but

also documentation "hidden" in the circumstance that any immigration officer is in his perfect right to request whatever documentation he might deem necessary to establish that your actual situation meets requirements. Its all local and individual to which extent this or that office® may ask for additional documentation.

I've recently got my fourth non-0 spouse dependent extension - the last 3 have been on grounds of Thai salaries of 20,000 for each partee in this marriage. At the first extension of the 3, I brought along only tax receipts PND 1 (employer's withheld tax reports) and workpermit together with the general docs for being a married couple - everything mentioned in the police order for my situation, actually. They requested copies of bankbook, bank's balance doc (for both Thai wife and I). Employers company registration, employers list of shareholders, employers list of objectives, employment contracts for both wife and I stating our salaries... Had no problem producing all this so don't know if extension would have been refused otherwise.

Second year I brought it all along, which they accepted. Third year they accepted everything except the bank account documentation - not required any more, they said. This all happened in Chiang Mai which is generally known to be quite reasonable, but obviously do take documentation seriously.

Edited October 2, 2008 by rishi

[beammeup]

What about someone who works offshore but spends 183 or more days in Thailand? He would be required to pay tax but wouldnt need a work permit.

[Maestro]

He would use the embassy letter certifying his foreign-earned income to apply for his extension of stay, not Thai tax receipts.

He would have to pay tax in Thailand on his foreign income only if he insisted very hard and even then he might have difficulty obtaining permission to do so.

--

Maestro

[opalhort]

Hope there is a tax expert here who can clarify things, but this is my understanding:

Income inside Thailand!

If you have income from employment (salary) only, you will file the tax form PNgD91 every year and submit it to Imm as evidence --> Imm will want to see a workpermit

If you have income from investment, renting out a condo etc., you'll have to declare this income on the tax form PNgD90 every year (and PNgD94 mid-year). --> Imm won't ask for a workpermit.

The easiest way for people with no real income would be the PNgD90/94 route as far as Imm is concerned, but beware of the Revenue department!

My wife is filing the 90/94 forms because our company leases land from her and the revenue department has audited her personal finances twice over the past five years!

opalhort