Police Fire Tear Gas At Protesters In Front Of Parliament

[toybits]

Why did PAD allow children to be there? So that they would act as a human shield? Shame on PAD for allowing this to happen.

Shame of Sonthi. Shame on Chamlong. Shame on Col Sanders (don't know his GD name)....

The police is attacking and hurting children, for whatever reason they are there, you can't hurt children.

[Moonrakers]

<deleted> people, nobody has actually said that children are there. Sondhi has just used the word "Children" as a Metaphor referring to PAD protestors in general.

PAD supporters screamed at police through the loudspeaker system as officers moved in, but the actual PAD core leaders were not seen. PAD founder and leader Sondhi Limthongkul could be heard deploring the "police attack on children in our midst" but he also did not come to the foreground of the action.

[Morch]

I nearly never comment here (sometimes I think I should, but then laziness & the risk of getting entangled in yet another forum kick in), but I also read most of what's important for me.

Wanted to point out, as an ex-soldier who to his shame had had some experience with crowd dispersal and use of tear gas, that you need to be either untrained/incompetent, using substandard equipment (usually that means old, but not always), or have a combo of a very bad day & nasty attitude in order to physically hurt someone that way. I shot *quite* a few of those in my day - don't recall ever hurting someone directly (well, if you don't count the tear gas itself).

Not going to get into "they're right/they're wrong" sort of thing. Yes, Bringing children to demonstrations is wrong, both for safety and brain washing reasons. My wife endeavors to explain to me that in "Thailand it's different", and ok...children here do seem unrepeatable from their parents, but I'm not convinced. Yes, the use of deadly force against otherwise non-life-threatening civilians is wrong as well (I've also been on that side of the fence, sometimes with a couple of days in between). It's not as if the police are not aware who are the protesters. The "if-they-wouldn't-be-there-they-wouldn't-get-hurt" reasoning is a bad one: The burden of responsibility almost always the stronger side's, and may I add that people advocating that reasoning ought to get their driver permit revoked as well .

Ummm...that's about it. Re-activate lurker mode I guess.

[JoeInSurin]

The police is attacking and hurting children, for whatever reason they are there, you can't hurt children.

What a stupid sentence!

Children are not / should not be there.

The one who pronounced the word "children" is Sondhi and all of us know that this guy is a psychopath liar.

No child had been hurt.

I agree 100%. I feel sorry for the PAD's children there that have to be brought up by parents with this poor of judgement. This shows the mentality of some of the PAD.

[toptuan]

I've witnessed two tear-gas attacks where there were no serious injuries (Berkeley, CA in the 1960's and WTO riots in Seattle). This is the first time I've become aware of the possibility of serious injuries under such an attack. After all, the purpose of tear-gas use is to disperse crowds without serious bodily injury.

Is this a different sort of ammunition being used, from that commonly used in western riot-control? Anyone know?

EDIT: Thank you for recent post #68, above, which partially answers my question.

Edited October 7, 2008 by toptuan

[Moonrakers]

The police is attacking and hurting children, for whatever reason they are there, you can't hurt children.

What a stupid sentence!

Children are not / should not be there.

The one who pronounced the word "children" is Sondhi and all of us know that this guy is a psychopath liar.

No child had been hurt.

I agree 100%. I feel sorry for the PAD's children there that have to be brought up by parents with this poor of judgement. This shows the mentality of some of the PAD.

AGAIN: Nobody has actually said that children are there. Sondhi has just used the word "Children" as a Metaphor referring to PAD protestors in general.

[sriracha john]

Her Majesty the Queen Bestows 100,000 Baht to Help Injured PAD

Her Majesty the Queen has bestowed 100,000 baht to help PAD protesters who have been injured during this morning's police crackdown.

The money has been given to the Vajira Hospital, located nearby Parliament. The costs of medical treatments for the injured PAD protesters will later be forwarded to the Royal Household Bureau.

- TOC / 2008-10-07

[sriracha john]

I've witnessed two tear-gas attacks where there were no serious injuries (Berkeley, CA in the 1960's and WTO riots in Seattle). This is the first time I've become aware of the possibility of serious injuries under such an attack. After all, the purpose of tear-gas use is to disperse crowds without serious bodily injury.

Is this a different sort of ammunition being used, from that commonly used in western riot-control? Anyone know?

There certainly does seem to be an inordinate amount of blood-letting with this, Somchai's "soft approach", compared to other tear-gassing episodes...

[toybits]

I wonder if they are now regretting having ousted Samak. I never thought I would be saying this....

[hammered]

Apparently in parliamnet they are struggling to get a quorum for their policy announcement.

[h90]

I nearly never comment here (sometimes I think I should, but then laziness & the risk of getting entangled in yet another forum kick in), but I also read most of what's important for me.

Wanted to point out, as an ex-soldier who to his shame had had some experience with crowd dispersal and use of tear gas, that you need to be either untrained/incompetent, using substandard equipment (usually that means old, but not always), or have a combo of a very bad day & nasty attitude in order to physically hurt someone that way. I shot *quite* a few of those in my day - don't recall ever hurting someone directly (well, if you don't count the tear gas itself).

Not going to get into "they're right/they're wrong" sort of thing. Yes, Bringing children to demonstrations is wrong, both for safety and brain washing reasons. My wife endeavors to explain to me that in "Thailand it's different", and ok...children here do seem unrepeatable from their parents, but I'm not convinced. Yes, the use of deadly force against otherwise non-life-threatening civilians is wrong as well (I've also been on that side of the fence, sometimes with a couple of days in between). It's not as if the police are not aware who are the protesters. The "if-they-wouldn't-be-there-they-wouldn't-get-hurt" reasoning is a bad one: The burden of responsibility almost always the stronger side's, and may I add that people advocating that reasoning ought to get their driver permit revoked as well .

Ummm...that's about it. Re-activate lurker mode I guess.

Two points: Children seems to be wrong. Sondhi used "Children" as a metaphor (which makes sense in Thai language) and we made out of that injured children which just did not happen (as it seems). Hopefully a classic example how rumors can spread.

Substandard: I never saw police with appropriate gear to protect themself against gas, so they might be afraid of it themself.

Untrained/Incompetent and Thai police......I don't even know what I shall write there.....Yes of course

[h90]

I wonder if they are now regretting having ousted Samak. I never thought I would be saying this....

I never thought anyone is saying this ever....

[Farfetched]

Clearly I'm out of kilter with the majority of opinions being expressed in this thread, but...

I don't consider a group of unarmed police using tear gas to disperse an unruly mob who were blocking elected members of Parliament from reaching their debating chamber an 'act of violence' as described by previous contributors, critical of Somchai.

One Aussie said Somchai's behaviour would never occur in Australia... neither would PAD's... The police would quickly and forcibly move a bunch of protestors on if they surround Parliament, erected barricades and prevented the government from going about its business. They'd use water canons, police with riot shields and batons and - as a last resort - tear gas, I'm sure. They'd also arrest the protestors, bundle them into buses and cart them off for processing. We saw them prepared to do this in Sydney during Apec last year.

The police should have acted in Bangkok sooner. Surely there is security around Parliament 24-seven, so why did no-one raise the alert and prevent the barricades being erected in the first place.

PPP is no white knight, but PAD is doing immeasurable damage to Thailand's economy by its lawlessness, illegal occupations and trespassing (airports, included). There are 800 international journalists and travel agents in Bangkok this week, all flown there by TAT and THAI - part of a Herculian effort to restore flagging tourism numbers to the country. No doubt they all turned on their hotel TVs this morning to scenes of anarchy and a strong - but justified - response by the police to restore law and order...

ReznoInOz, You do not stand alone in your opinion. As this situation would never be tolerated in Oz, it would also not be tolerated in the US. Neither the PPP or PAD is above reproach for what is currently happening here in the LOS. Coruption is a way of life here in politics. Hopefully, in time, a group of reasonably minded people will emerge with the "Good of the Country" as their premise. No, it won't happen soon, and maybe not for a long time. But until it does, Thailand will continue down this road to self destruction.

[george]

Parliament still lacks quorum to start policy debate

BANGKOK: -- Parliament President Chai Chidchob has tried to convene the House-Senate session for policy debate for the past 25 minutes but failed to achieve a quorum.

The debate has been scheduled to begin at 9.30 am but a large number of lawmakers, including all of the opposition members, remain outside the meeting chamber though reported to work.

-- The Nation 2008-10-07

[sriracha john]

However it's been reported that the Parliament session will be a short one because Parliament's emergency power unit can only act as a backup generator for no more than 1 hour.

tick tock... the generators are running low...

Parliament still lacks quorum to start policy debate

Parliament President Chai Chidchob has tried to convene the House-Senate session for policy debate for the past 25 minutes, but failed to achieve a quorum.

The debate has been scheduled to begin at 9.30 am but a large number of lawmakers, including all of the opposition members, remain outside the meeting chamber though reported to work.

The Nation / 2008-10-07

[h90]

I nearly never comment here (sometimes I think I should, but then laziness & the risk of getting entangled in yet another forum kick in), but I also read most of what's important for me.

Wanted to point out, as an ex-soldier who to his shame had had some experience with crowd dispersal and use of tear gas, that you need to be either untrained/incompetent, using substandard equipment (usually that means old, but not always), or have a combo of a very bad day & nasty attitude in order to physically hurt someone that way. I shot *quite* a few of those in my day - don't recall ever hurting someone directly (well, if you don't count the tear gas itself).

Not going to get into "they're right/they're wrong" sort of thing. Yes, Bringing children to demonstrations is wrong, both for safety and brain washing reasons. My wife endeavors to explain to me that in "Thailand it's different", and ok...children here do seem unrepeatable from their parents, but I'm not convinced. Yes, the use of deadly force against otherwise non-life-threatening civilians is wrong as well (I've also been on that side of the fence, sometimes with a couple of days in between). It's not as if the police are not aware who are the protesters. The "if-they-wouldn't-be-there-they-wouldn't-get-hurt" reasoning is a bad one: The burden of responsibility almost always the stronger side's, and may I add that people advocating that reasoning ought to get their driver permit revoked as well .

Ummm...that's about it. Re-activate lurker mode I guess.

Got reports that there were "Glass-bombs (or granates)" used by the police. I don't know what this means. Others tell about glass at/in/with the tear gas.

Several times I read about injuries with glass.

Any ideas what that might mean?

[Scott]

The PAD should have been cleared out of gov't house long ago. Before that they should have been forced to abide by the law. It's one thing to protest, it's another to create as much chaos as they have.

Sad that there are injuries, but this stuff can't be allowed to continue forever--and it will, because like spoiled kids, they will just keep wanting more.

[hammered]

It would probably be a very sensible move for the government to agree a new time frame to hold the policy deabte in conjunction with opposition and senators. There is actually no reason why it cant be delayed a day or two. However, I doubt anything sensible will happen.

[toptuan]

Got reports that there were "Glass-bombs (or granates)" used by the police. I don't know what this means. Others tell about glass at/in/with the tear gas.

Several times I read about injuries with glass.

Any ideas what that might mean?

I had assumed some non-native speaker (English) had misspelled "gas bombs" as is so easily and often done on this forum (e.g. "granates" for "grenades.")

Probably shouldn't speculate so as not to feed the rumor-mill until someone with some expertise or experience can provide technical input. (Morch, can you help us again?)

Edited October 7, 2008 by toptuan

[george]

PAD vows to fight to bitter end

BANGKOK: -- People's Alliance for Democracy leader Sondhi Limthongkul vowed to continue protesting to the bitter end and said today was a day of reckoning for the government.

"We will not retreat," he said in defiance of the anti-riot measures to disperse the crowds at Parliament.

Sondhi was speaking at the rally stage inside Government House.

He also urged workers of state enterprises to cut off water and electricity supplies at Parliament in a bid to prevent the policy debate from taking place.

Thousands of protesters arrived at Government House following the crackdown.

-- The Nation 2008-10-07

[animatic]

Dear mister Somchai is showing his true face very fast. He asks for peace with one hand and with the other hand he commits violence. Shows what kind of a person he is.

Waerth

What kind of person he is??? He was unblocking the parliament building.

The PAD should not have been blocking it. Tear gas is the only language they understand.

Am I missing something here?

Bryan - congrats - the only sane comment here - the other OP's really have no idea - these mafia PAD have caused enough division in this country already -- the elected government of this country has the right to govern with the mandate of the people - for good or bad - and to disrupt the daily working of the government and try to topple it with blockades and civil unrest as that which the PAD is trying to stir up is just as the leaders have been charged with - yet to be found guilty I would add - treason and - look up the word "treason' if some of you computer potatoes don't know - "VIOLATION by subject of allegiance to sovereign or to chief authority of State " and in this case the elected government -- if u ask me = guilty by definition -- the police have acted within the law as the PAD has refused to move and so force seems to be the only option left - also interesting to just read that the leaders have been urging the protested to continue but happy to stay in the back ground -- what happened to lead by example haaaaa -- and if some of the protesters are injured - all i can say is 'som nam na'!

Ermmm Aussimike I didn't really mention how I feel about the protests. I am both Anti-PAD and anti-PPP. They are both responsible for the mess. The division of Thailand started with Thailands election of Thaksin in 2001.

Back home in Oz having a family dynasty rule politics, the army and the police would be impossible wouldn't it? Also a Prime-Minister offering peace and then using violence is not really trustworthy is he? Back in Oz or in Europe that person would be forced to resign by his own party. The problem is both sides are thoroughly corrupt. This government is a farce and so is the PAD. They are both a bunch of hotheads only interested in their own interests. Neither party cares about the common Thai.

Also can both of you please refrain from personal attacks. Just respect eachothers opinions. I respect your opinion on the situation, and I ask you to respect mine. Keeps it nicer for everyone.

Waerth

If the core blame must be placed anywhere for this debacle, it HAS to be

at the feet of Thaksin Shinawatra and his quest for control of all of Thailand.

Hubris, arrogance, and amorality in a mono-maniacle quest to regain his ill gotten gains.

76 billion baht and huge loss of face are driving him round the twist. What are his limits?

Where will he draw the line and say enough, too much damage, I give up.

But I watched him in the 2 months prior to his being deposed,

and he was saying pretty paranoid sounding things

and looking pretty much a darned nutter...

This is all from the man who professed to be through with politics.

We must pray for peace for sure.

But also pray he doesn't go for broke.

Edited October 7, 2008 by animatic

[toptuan]

If you get a chance, turn on NBT channel (TrueVisions, channel 5). Pretty animated debate in Parliament--getting to the yelling stage. Even if you can't understand Thai, it's becoming quite a show. Some dude in a military uniform just finished angrily shouting his short speech, and then apparently walked out. The moderator sports that uneasy Thai "smile" which says "I'm really uncomfortable with this mess."

Edited October 7, 2008 by toptuan

[Morch]

I was referring to children presence at demonstrations in general. As far as I'm aware most PAD that come with they're offspring don't stay the night (maybe different on weekends). Doesn't make it ok as far as I'm concerned, just a tad better.

The point was that the police were also aware of this possibility and still acted as they did.

[JoeInSurin]

The army should uphold the law and clear out the protesters if the police can't do it. No other country in the world would let a group of protesters take over public buildings and disrupt the government. I can't believe anyone would think the PAD have been dealt with a "heavy hand".

[h90]

Got reports that there were "Glass-bombs (or granates)" used by the police. I don't know what this means. Others tell about glass at/in/with the tear gas.

Several times I read about injuries with glass.

Any ideas what that might mean?

I had assumed some non-native speaker (English) had misspelled "gas bombs" as is so easily and often done on this forum (e.g. "granates" for "grenades.")

Probably shouldn't speculate so as not to feed the rumor-mill until someone with some expertise or experience can provide technical input. (Morch, can you help us again?)

Now police is denies Glass (source TOC), so there is some discussion about it. It would also explain that so many people are in hospital.

[Morch]

Got reports that there were "Glass-bombs (or granates)" used by the police. I don't know what this means. Others tell about glass at/in/with the tear gas.

Several times I read about injuries with glass.

Any ideas what that might mean?

I had assumed some non-native speaker (English) had misspelled "gas bombs" as is so easily and often done on this forum (e.g. "granates" for "grenades.")

Probably shouldn't speculate so as not to feed the rumor-mill until someone with some expertise or experience can provide technical input. (Morch, can you help us again?)

Wouldn't call myself an expert...as with cars, I just drive the dam_n things :-).

Sub-standard munitions, even tear gas canisters/grenades might explode in silly ways, yes. Glass? no.

As far as I understand this report is from ASTV, which means it might be inaccurate, exaggerated or panic induced by the police attack. Anyway, they are talking about two separate things: Tear gas & the so called "glass bomb" - what the second one might be I can't say with my poor command of the Thai language.

[animatic]

It would appear that a higher authority is VERY unhappy with these goings on.

[toptuan]

Now police is denies Glass (source TOC), so there is some discussion about it. It would also explain that so many people are in hospital.

Reminder: TOC is the pro-PAD communication organ of the internet. Hardly an objective source. (I know, it begs the question--who IS an objective news source?)

[sriracha john]

House Speaker convened joint session

House Speaker Chai Chidchob convened the joint session of parliament on Tuesday morning after the quorum was achieved. At least 311 senators and MPs from the government side attended the meeting. However, no MPs from the Democrat party, or the Opposition side, were present. A group of 40 Senators who opposed the constitutional amendments also refused to attend the session, reasoning that they could not accept the police’s effort to disperse the protesters in front of the parliament by

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_news/b...s.php?id=131161

[sriracha john]

There is quite a bit of video footage from a variety of sources of numerous people suffering severe burns or large lacerations (including the traumatic amputation of a leg posted earlier). These don't seem entirely consistent with the use of "tear-gas."