Us Citizens Taking Natural Thai Kids To Us: Watchout!

[blam]

I am an expat US citizen married to a Thai citizen, we are taking our Thai born daughter to the US again this year for Christmas .

In the past we had 10 year US visas, the passports (w/visas) were stolen at Kuala Lumpur airport 3 weeks ago (yep, bump, snatch and grab right in front of me in the departure terminal.) We replaced birth certificate, passports, and then... went to BKK for the new US visas (you can't replace the old ones) Wow, what a nasty revelation this craziness was!

I am being forced to have my daughter claim dual citizenship, Thai and US, otherwise, the consulate will not allow her to travel to the US again, ever. This is the first time I have heard this one, and my local American attorney/buddy said that I will just have to jump through whatever hoops they throw in front of me, no matter how obscure they are. (I do NOT want dual citizenship for her, nor do I want to my daughter to be an American citizen AT ALL)

I am simply blown away by being forced to have to file a "Consular Report of Birth Abroad" (CRBA) and go through a citizenship tribunal simply to have her go with me to the US for 3 weeks at Christmas AS USUAL.

Anyone have any experience with this? Is there really a LAW on the consular books that relates to this? Everything I have read says that we "MAY" do this and we "MAY" do that, not anywhere do I see anything that says, you "MUST" do this, and you "MUST" do that.

I feel that something is seriously wrong here.

[OriginalPoster]

I am an expat US citizen married to a Thai citizen, we are taking our Thai born daughter to the US again this year for Christmas .

In the past we had 10 year US visas, the passports (w/visas) were stolen at Kuala Lumpur airport 3 weeks ago (yep, bump, snatch and grab right in front of me in the departure terminal.) We replaced birth certificate, passports, and then... went to BKK for the new US visas (you can't replace the old ones) Wow, what a nasty revelation this craziness was!

I am being forced to have my daughter claim dual citizenship, Thai and US, otherwise, the consulate will not allow her to travel to the US again, ever. This is the first time I have heard this one, and my local American attorney/buddy said that I will just have to jump through whatever hoops they throw in front of me, no matter how obscure they are. (I do NOT want dual citizenship for her, nor do I want to my daughter to be an American citizen AT ALL)

I am simply blown away by being forced to have to file a "Consular Report of Birth Abroad" (CRBA) and go through a citizenship tribunal simply to have her go with me to the US for 3 weeks at Christmas AS USUAL.

Anyone have any experience with this? Is there really a LAW on the consular books that relates to this? Everything I have read says that we "MAY" do this and we "MAY" do that, not anywhere do I see anything that says, you "MUST" do this, and you "MUST" do that.

I feel that something is seriously wrong here.

I thought that the US considered offspring of US citizens to be a citizens automatically. If none of this ever happened and you never wound up talking to the US consoluate, wouldn't your daughter have been considered to have dual citizenship until she reaches legal age and makes the decision for herself which country's citizenship she wishes to keep? In other words, wouldn't she be considered to be a dual citizen by default? Even if that wouldn't have happened by default, isn't it better for her if she is able to decide which country's citizenship she wishes to retain once she is old enough to have an opinion in the matter instead of making a final decision on the matter now?

Edited October 16, 2008 by OriginalPoster

[OriginalPoster]

I am an expat US citizen married to a Thai citizen, we are taking our Thai born daughter to the US again this year for Christmas .

In the past we had 10 year US visas, the passports (w/visas) were stolen at Kuala Lumpur airport 3 weeks ago (yep, bump, snatch and grab right in front of me in the departure terminal.) We replaced birth certificate, passports, and then... went to BKK for the new US visas (you can't replace the old ones) Wow, what a nasty revelation this craziness was!

I am being forced to have my daughter claim dual citizenship, Thai and US, otherwise, the consulate will not allow her to travel to the US again, ever. This is the first time I have heard this one, and my local American attorney/buddy said that I will just have to jump through whatever hoops they throw in front of me, no matter how obscure they are. (I do NOT want dual citizenship for her, nor do I want to my daughter to be an American citizen AT ALL)

I am simply blown away by being forced to have to file a "Consular Report of Birth Abroad" (CRBA) and go through a citizenship tribunal simply to have her go with me to the US for 3 weeks at Christmas AS USUAL.

Anyone have any experience with this? Is there really a LAW on the consular books that relates to this? Everything I have read says that we "MAY" do this and we "MAY" do that, not anywhere do I see anything that says, you "MUST" do this, and you "MUST" do that.

I feel that something is seriously wrong here.

I thought that the US considered offspring of US citizens to be a citizens automatically. If none of this ever happened and you never wound up talking to the US consoluate, wouldn't your daughter have been considered to have dual citizenship until she reaches legal age and makes the decision for herself which country's citizenship she wishes to keep? In other words, wouldn't she be considered to be a dual citizen by default? Even if that wouldn't have happened by default, isn't it better for her if she is able to decide which country's citizenship she wishes to retain once she is old enough to have an opinion in the matter instead of making a final decision on the matter now?

From the US State Departments web page, I found the blurb below. I suspect that is the reason that you are being forced to declare here as a dual citizen - if you refused to you would effectively be renouncing her US citizenship, which is something that you are not allowed to do, only she can do that for herself:

"

F. RENUNCIATION FOR MINOR CHILDREN

Parents cannot renounce U.S. citizenship on behalf of their minor children. Before an oath of renunciation will be administered under Section 349(a)(5) of the INA, a person under the age of eighteen must convince a U.S. diplomatic or consular officer that he/she fully understands the nature and consequences of the oath of renunciation, is not subject to duress or undue influence, and is voluntarily seeking to renounce his/her U.S. citizenship.

Edited October 16, 2008 by OriginalPoster

[pumpuiman]

Do you realize how many people would give their right arm for a US citizenship?

What are the disadvantages to holding two passports?

Are you making a political statement?

[ubonjoe]

I can think of one big reason. With US citizenship no matter if she ever lives in the US or not she must pay taxes to the US and she would be required to file a tax return every year of her life once she eaches legal age. That includes social security taxes.

Plus that should be her choice when she reaches the legal age to make that decision.

Edited October 16, 2008 by ubonjoe

[Mario2008]

I think Original Poster is right. The daughter already has US citizenship by way of birth.

[blam]

I do not want my daughter paying for the obtuse recklessness and destruction of the USA by the Bush administration. Trillions in interest to be passed from generation to generation. "The International taxation database for US citizens living abroad is being developed to aggressively deal with expatriates." Standard Chartered Bank Singapore. Therefore, I do not want my daughter to be included in this database.

Americans have this self glorification complex that presumes that every person in the world wants to be American. Why? The place is essentially unlivable as far as I am concerned. My Thai wife just simply thinks it's joke that is seriously not funny, it's not safe, it's not nice, the people are not nice, and they all pretend like they are supposed to be a movie star or something. She could care less if she ever goes there again.

Years ago I had a good friend in California. He was a "Browning", yes THAT Browning, and for all of his life and still today receives $40,000,000 a year ($10 mill per quarter) in interest on unpaid principle from World War II. You will never guess who set up this nice deal: President of the World Bank, and GW Bush's grandfather, Prescott Bush. Americans are still paying taxes to settle the interest on WW2 debt principle. Sound familiar?

No, I do not want my daughter to be forced into paying for a corrupted tax database. Yes, forced. If I want to take my daughter to the USA for Christmas to see her 90 year old grandfather, I am forced to create a dual citizenship for her, therefore forced to have her entered into the Roman (oh sorry I mean American) tax rolls.

If that is a political statement, so be it.

But, something does not smell right to me. Why did they issue the girls 10 year visas, and now reneg on the deal?

[jdinasia]

I can't see a way out other than the OP renouncing HIS US citizenship and then not declaring the child as a natural born etc .... But the kid could still claim citizenship against the parent's will later on.

All in all it is pretty stupid not to accept the dual citizenship for your kid, they always have the option to renounce it later. The kid is a yank ... and a thai.

[gunnyd]

You not the US government "forced" US citizenship on your child by fathering her before you renounced your own citizenship at the Embassy. If you hate America so much that's what you should have done. That would be the only way she wouldn't be a US citizen.

In reality just the fact that you are her father makes her a US citizen and whether or not you chose to fill out the proper paperwork (CRBA) after she was born doesn't matter.

If either parent is a US citizen their children get US citizenship automatically.

In a post 9/11 world I am surprised that the US embassy issued the previous visa in the first place. And IMHO I don't think that your child will be angry that you documented her legal status, most likely she will be thankful. The hoops increase exponentially if you make her wait until she becomes 18 and decides to move to the US and you haven't filed the paperwork. Your kid will thank you later.

Who would have thought that being a US citizen would be considered a bad thing.

Sounds like you are forcing your hatred of the current, soon to be changed, government. As for the desirability of being allowed into America, look at the lines of foreign nationals outside any US Embassy or Consulate in SEA. Don't sabotage your kids future because you hate the current political situation in the US. It seems awfully selfish.

[OriginalPoster]

I do not want my daughter paying for the obtuse recklessness and destruction of the USA by the Bush administration. Trillions in interest to be passed from generation to generation. "The International taxation database for US citizens living abroad is being developed to aggressively deal with expatriates." Standard Chartered Bank Singapore. Therefore, I do not want my daughter to be included in this database.

Americans have this self glorification complex that presumes that every person in the world wants to be American. Why? The place is essentially unlivable as far as I am concerned. My Thai wife just simply thinks it's joke that is seriously not funny, it's not safe, it's not nice, the people are not nice, and they all pretend like they are supposed to be a movie star or something. She could care less if she ever goes there again.

Years ago I had a good friend in California. He was a "Browning", yes THAT Browning, and for all of his life and still today receives $40,000,000 a year ($10 mill per quarter) in interest on unpaid principle from World War II. You will never guess who set up this nice deal: President of the World Bank, and GW Bush's grandfather, Prescott Bush. Americans are still paying taxes to settle the interest on WW2 debt principle. Sound familiar?

No, I do not want my daughter to be forced into paying for a corrupted tax database. Yes, forced. If I want to take my daughter to the USA for Christmas to see her 90 year old grandfather, I am forced to create a dual citizenship for her, therefore forced to have her entered into the Roman (oh sorry I mean American) tax rolls.

If that is a political statement, so be it.

But, something does not smell right to me. Why did they issue the girls 10 year visas, and now reneg on the deal?

You are not being "forced" to create a dual citizenship for your daughter, you are being denied the right to renounce her citizenship. Big difference.

But let's assume that your daughter is your property and hence you have the right to make the decision of citizenship for her. If you were granted your wish and she was declared to not be a US citizen, why would you presume that she has a right to visit the US?

Edited October 16, 2008 by OriginalPoster

[thesunset75]

If I were you, I am happy to give her dual passport/citizenship. My son he have American / Thai and gonna have Dutch passport here. You'll see howmuch priority she will get if she is American !

[pumpuiman]

Say what you will.....but my wife makes more in one month than she would in a year working in Thailand...after taxes.

Her US income has bought a beautiful house in Thailand, and supports her family...as well as allowing higher education to be possible for her family.

Your daughter could be a doctor in Thailand and earn less than a maid in the US.

Take the gift of citizenship.

[britmaveric]

Odd - never heard anyone whinge about having dual citizenship. It's an advantage as far as I can see. OP is plain mental.

[blam]

Excellent points all. Noted.

The girls had 10 year multiple entry visas, they were fine for when we wanted to go for Christmas every year. This new spin is delicate, it is taking some time to adjust to where we are now after the devastating ripoff in Malaysia (it wasn't just paperwork, hello.)

I don't hate America at all, I love it. But, I live here in Thailand and see that the organizational unity that Americans really believe that America is heaven on earth, and it is hilarious. My family home in Phuket overlooking the sea is heaven on earth, it's more lovely and loving than anything I could possibly have in California, Boston, or Hawaii. I don't care how many people are lined up to beg to go to America. Many then suffer buyers remorse, of course.

Again, this is something that was sprung on me yesterday at the US Consulate, and no one else that I know here in Thailand has had to deal with it. So go figure. I suppose that I will jump through the consulate hoops just so my daughter can hug her old grandpa on Christmas Day. This is what real Americans do after all, we figure out a way to make it happen.

[Langsuan Man]

I think Original Poster is right. The daughter already has US citizenship by way of birth.

NO, NO, NO.

Your right to automatic US citizenship is based upon being BORN in the United States or it's territories. It makes no difference what your parentage. This is why there is such a controversy over illegal aliens giving birth to children in the US, the children automatically obtain citizenship just because they were born in the US and have a US issued birth certificate. Believe me the United States is one, if not the only, country where this is the case.

Since there are numerous children born abroad who's parent(s) are US citizens the US Department of State has established a method where these children are able to obtain a US issued birth certificate through the US Embassy which issues a Certificate of US birth abroad. (or something to that effect). (John McCain for instance, has this type of birth certificate since his father was in the Navy and stationed in Panama when John was born)

What the OP does not tell us is what was the daughters status when the first 10 year visa was issued ? It may have been issued under the same requirements as the wifes 10 year visa, which included a lot of paperwork, an interview, etc. Obviously the child would not have had the interview but the parent(s) would have.

If the OP does not want his daughter to have US citizenship then he will have to accept the fact that she will be treated as a Thai when it comes to issuing a visa, and as everyone can tell you, it is a nightmare for a Thai to get a US visitor visa.

And what has probably happened since the OP got his daughter her first 10 year visa is the requirement that all children obtain a social security number at birth. This is a relatively new requirement and is designed to prevent parents from claiming children as dependents, when they are not. It is also designed to prevent identity theft since a social security number is now required for most forms of official identification.

This new social security number requirement is probably what is driving the Embassy requirement.

[OriginalPoster]

Excellent points all. Noted.

The girls had 10 year multiple entry visas, they were fine for when we wanted to go for Christmas every year. This new spin is delicate, it is taking some time to adjust to where we are now after the devastating ripoff in Malaysia (it wasn't just paperwork, hello.)

I don't hate America at all, I love it. But, I live here in Thailand and see that the organizational unity that Americans really believe that America is heaven on earth, and it is hilarious. My family home in Phuket overlooking the sea is heaven on earth, it's more lovely and loving than anything I could possibly have in California, Boston, or Hawaii. I don't care how many people are lined up to beg to go to America. Many then suffer buyers remorse, of course.

Again, this is something that was sprung on me yesterday at the US Consulate, and no one else that I know here in Thailand has had to deal with it. So go figure. I suppose that I will jump through the consulate hoops just so my daughter can hug her old grandpa on Christmas Day. This is what real Americans do after all, we figure out a way to make it happen.

Try to look at it this way. It's quite common that children have totally opposite political views than their parents as they emerge from adolscence. Plenty of 1960's hippies wound up having kids that saw the world much differently than they did, even though they believed thier world view to be undeniable righteous. It's part of the rebellion of youth, as Frank Zappa said "if your parents are out doing bong hits it only makes sense for their kids to stay home and watch the Carson Show". In practical terms, imagine if you your daughter rejects your view of America and the merits of Thailand. Image too if either America or Thailand should change so much over the next couple of decades and that relative merits of the two countries changed substanatially. Now imagine your daughter at age 18, and how much she will hate you for depriving her of he US citizenship. Are you sure that you want to risk that happening, even if you think the chances of it happening are remote? My advice - accept that she has dual citizenship and let be what will be.

Edited October 16, 2008 by OriginalPoster

[blam]

Odd - never heard anyone whinge about having dual citizenship. It's an advantage as far as I can see. OP is plain mental.

Oh, let's take a nice example: The US allows $70,000 a year to be made outside of the USA at a 'no tax' rate as long as you can prove that you have paid the taxes in the country that you reside. (Most other countries it is $200,000, but never mind this) Now, let's say you have a PhD and are a 20 year Microsoft encryption base developer with 20% stock backstack optioned in per anum as your salary, and a golden parachute at age 60. You also have investments in profitable coffee plantations in Thailand & Indonesia, and develop agricultural palm oil real estate in Malaysia, etc etc. Your last will and testament includes your wife and your dual citizenship US citizen daughter. Now, even though you may not have been back to the US (or visited rarely) in 15 to 20 years, you still have to file, and pay at a 42% tax rate on anything over $70,000. Your daughter, after you are gone, even though she has MAYBE been to the US 5 times, will be stuck with the same damm thing, and so will her kids, and their kids = 42% of everything over $70,000/yr. Mental? Time for you to think in more realistic terms, yes? Heh.

[britmaveric]

Not really - she uses her thai citizenship. As long as she is paying taxes in her country of residence she will be fine.

[OriginalPoster]

Odd - never heard anyone whinge about having dual citizenship. It's an advantage as far as I can see. OP is plain mental.

Oh, let's take a nice example: The US allows $70,000 a year to be made outside of the USA at a 'no tax' rate as long as you can prove that you have paid the taxes in the country that you reside. (Most other countries it is $200,000, but never mind this) Now, let's say you have a PhD and are a 20 year Microsoft encryption base developer with 20% stock backstack optioned in per anum as your salary, and a golden parachute at age 60. You also have investments in profitable coffee plantations in Thailand & Indonesia, and develop agricultural palm oil real estate in Malaysia, etc etc. Your last will and testament includes your wife and your dual citizenship US citizen daughter. Now, even though you may not have been back to the US (or visited rarely) in 15 to 20 years, you still have to file, and pay at a 42% tax rate on anything over $70,000. Your daughter, after you are gone, even though she has MAYBE been to the US 5 times, will be stuck with the same damm thing, and so will her kids, and their kids = 42% of everything over $70,000/yr. Mental? Time for you to think in more realistic terms, yes? Heh.

No doubt US tax laws on overseas Americans are oppressive and that the "death tax" in the US is excessive. I think that it's come to be that because overseas Americans are not an organized voting block and because domestic voters back home have little sympathy for "rich" people who they assume are just moving offshore to evade their fair share of taxes. But the above things that you wrote are a description of your situtation, I think what you need is a finacial advisor that specializes in estate planning - your daughter's citizenship might not need to be the biggest factor in how much of a cut the IRS gets upon your death and there might be actions that you could take (other than renouncing her citizenship) that could reduce the tax bill.

Edited October 16, 2008 by OriginalPoster

[unforgiven]

I am an expat US citizen married to a Thai citizen, we are taking our Thai born daughter to the US again this year for Christmas .

In the past we had 10 year US visas, the passports (w/visas) were stolen at Kuala Lumpur airport 3 weeks ago (yep, bump, snatch and grab right in front of me in the departure terminal.) We replaced birth certificate, passports, and then... went to BKK for the new US visas (you can't replace the old ones) Wow, what a nasty revelation this craziness was!

I am being forced to have my daughter claim dual citizenship, Thai and US, otherwise, the consulate will not allow her to travel to the US again, ever. This is the first time I have heard this one, and my local American attorney/buddy said that I will just have to jump through whatever hoops they throw in front of me, no matter how obscure they are. (I do NOT want dual citizenship for her, nor do I want to my daughter to be an American citizen AT ALL)

I am simply blown away by being forced to have to file a "Consular Report of Birth Abroad" (CRBA) and go through a citizenship tribunal simply to have her go with me to the US for 3 weeks at Christmas AS USUAL.

Anyone have any experience with this? Is there really a LAW on the consular books that relates to this? Everything I have read says that we "MAY" do this and we "MAY" do that, not anywhere do I see anything that says, you "MUST" do this, and you "MUST" do that.

I feel that something is seriously wrong here.

they've gotten very heavy handed post 911

[blam]

Odd - never heard anyone whinge about having dual citizenship. It's an advantage as far as I can see. OP is plain mental.

Oh, let's take a nice example: The US allows $70,000 a year to be made outside of the USA at a 'no tax' rate as long as you can prove that you have paid the taxes in the country that you reside. (Most other countries it is $200,000, but never mind this) Now, let's say you have a PhD and are a 20 year Microsoft encryption base developer with 20% stock backstack optioned in per anum as your salary, and a golden parachute at age 60. You also have investments in profitable coffee plantations in Thailand & Indonesia, and develop agricultural palm oil real estate in Malaysia, etc etc. Your last will and testament includes your wife and your dual citizenship US citizen daughter. Now, even though you may not have been back to the US (or visited rarely) in 15 to 20 years, you still have to file, and pay at a 42% tax rate on anything over $70,000. Your daughter, after you are gone, even though she has MAYBE been to the US 5 times, will be stuck with the same damm thing, and so will her kids, and their kids = 42% of everything over $70,000/yr. Mental? Time for you to think in more realistic terms, yes? Heh.

No doubt US tax laws on overseas Americans are oppressive and that the "death tax" in the US is excessive. I think that it's come to be that because overseas Americans are not an organized voting block and because domestic voters back home have little sympathy for "rich" people who they assume are just moving offshore to evade their fair share of taxes. But the above things that you wrote are a description of your situtation, I think what you need is a finacial advisor that specializes in estate planning - your daughter's citizenship might not need to be the biggest factor in how much of a cut the IRS gets upon your death and there might be actions that you could take (other than renouncing her citizenship) that could reduce the tax bill.

Thx, it's not me I am concerned with. What I am alluding to is the fact that all US citizens are going to pay taxes to pay the interest on the PRINCIPLE borrowed by the US to fund the insanity that is going on today. As I mentioned in the "Browning" paragraph above, it's not what's occurring now, it's what will have to paid, and who to,... LATER. Bush has masterminded a 5 star platinum-mine in this regard. My daughter will end up paying taxes on interest from MY money to pay interest to guys like Browning (but it will be Halliburton, Bechtel, Raytheon, and Motorola, not to mention thousands of Chinese rich kids)... 50 years from now. (Again, Browning, just one of the family, and each gets $40,000,000 a year, and then he complains that he can't find a decent house that he can hang glide from out the back yard. He is a really really nice guy, but who wouldn't be, free money for his dad, his brothers & sisters, his kids, and his grandkids, all because Prescott Bush knew how to screw the taxpayers way way down the road. GWB learned the lesson well)

I just don't want my daughter being stuck with this just because I made a hasty decision today. Thx for your good insight tho.

[DC1066]

Wow, where to start, it sounds a very emotive issue. I guess Blam will not be voting Republican next month.

I'm not American - and nothing against Americans, but I don't want to be either, but unlike me, your daughter is of American descent and will have the choice. As such, I'm with those who think its better for your daughter to make her own choice when she is old enough. The world will turn many times between now and then and who knows what she'll want to do. As her parent, you'll be able to pass on to her your views as to why you think its a bad idea, but ultimately it should be her choice.

In terms of the tax - get a good accountant and tax planning adviser, there are many methods for tax avoidance (not evasion) you can use to mitigate the liability of yourself and your family.

Other than this, how about some personal responsibility? You say you love America and Americans, then don't just throw stones from the outside - although as an American it is your 'first amendment' right to do so - something that you couldn't do in many other countries. Use your vote to change the system; lobby against the taxes you have to pay particularly in the WWII interest payments if that is your specific gripe.

And what about paying your share of taxes anyway, how much of a contribution has your American education system and free market economy made to the level of income and heavenly lifestyle you currently enjoy - how about paying your share to give something back?

Phew, you've got me a it now. Anyway, I hope it all works out for you and your family - and I'm not at all envious of your view in Phuket

[dave_boo]

Oh, let's take a nice example: The US allows $70,000 a year to be made outside of the USA at a 'no tax' rate as long as you can prove that you have paid the taxes in the country that you reside. (Most other countries it is $200,000, but never mind this) Now, let's say you have a PhD and are a 20 year Microsoft encryption base developer with 20% stock backstack optioned in per anum as your salary, and a golden parachute at age 60. You also have investments in profitable coffee plantations in Thailand & Indonesia, and develop agricultural palm oil real estate in Malaysia, etc etc. Your last will and testament includes your wife and your dual citizenship US citizen daughter. Now, even though you may not have been back to the US (or visited rarely) in 15 to 20 years, you still have to file, and pay at a 42% tax rate on anything over $70,000. Your daughter, after you are gone, even though she has MAYBE been to the US 5 times, will be stuck with the same damm thing, and so will her kids, and their kids = 42% of everything over $70,000/yr. Mental? Time for you to think in more realistic terms, yes? Heh.

I've read through the thread and my jaw dropped further and further. Just out of curiosity, have you renounced your American citizenship? Or are the benefits of having too great to do?

Mainly I feel sorry for the little girl. To be raised in such an environment where her father is spouting such vitriol has to be wreaking havoc on her psyche. And to attempt to deny her the choice is very disturbing.

But having read all your replies, it makes sense to me that you'd expose her to that. At best you simply have an exaggerated sense of entitlement. At worst your a first class narcissist. For example, you stated

I do NOT want dual citizenship for her, nor do I want to my daughter to be an American citizen AT ALL

and

If I want to take my daughter to the USA for Christmas to see her 90 year old grandfather, I am forced to create a dual citizenship for her (you don't create dual citizenship for her; the country grants it based upon your decision to create her)

and

If that is a political statement, so be it. (i.e., only my political leanings matter, my daughter's future be damned)

and your best

My daughter will end up paying taxes on interest from MY money (capitalization all yours)

This is sad because it's so telling that you're really concerned about yourself and not the poor little girl.

Also of note is that you advantaged from having American citizenship.

Now, let's say you have a PhD and are a 20 year Microsoft encryption base developer with 20% stock backstack (sic) optioned in per anum (sic) as your salary, and a golden parachute at age 60. You also have investments in profitable coffee plantations in Thailand & Indonesia, and develop agricultural palm oil real estate in Malaysia, etc etc.

So why do you get off trying to deny your daughter that? Are you paying taxes in Thailand, or is that not an option because you're making the money overseas and on knowledge you obtained to your nationality? Have you returned checks to the government that they have issued to her grandfather for Social Security to help lower this debt, or is it ok that tax payers support him also; but you not having to pay taxes is acceptable?

Also, apparently you're not very bright (but than again, if you DID work as a 'Microsoft encryption base developer' that would explain a lot considering Microsoft's dismal record in regards to security). If you're worried about inheritance tax, just sell her the stock at fractions of a penny a share. Totally legal and nothing the tax man can do about it. If you knew your facts, then you wouldn't be spouting the crap about '42% tax rate on anything over $70,000'. It's currently 84 000+ USD and it increases every year. Plus, you wouldn't be paying that rate if you were claiming dependents. Further, there is no requirement that you pay taxes ANYWHERE on that sub 84 000 USD. Foreign earned income is tax free whether you paid taxes on it in another country or not. You do get exemptions on paying taxes, IF you paid taxes in a country with a tax treaty with the States.

I think what it all boils down to is that you need to ditch your "local American attorney/buddy", find a real lawyer, and chill the hel_l out.

Oh, and brainwashing does work. I've heard very few foreigners complain about the States after having visited/lived there. I suppose that if someone heard such tripe spewing from their spouse’s mouth, they'd start to believe it also. I don't suppose you would enlighten us as to where you took her to reinforce your point would you?

Also, props to DC1066, he has some really good points.

[thaihome]

No doubt, the OP is not a US tax expert. To be basing his daughters future on his skewed view of the US and it’s tax structure is a real shame. His example is ignorant and ridiculous.

TH

[ubonjoe]

The OP seems to quite aware of the tax issue.

Everybody skipped over the social security tax issue. Every US citizen and resident ("green card") has to pay this on their gross income and there is no break for working or living out of the country. You have to file a tax form every year even if you have zero income.

The OP needs to fight them on this. I don't think they can make him get her a passport. That should legally be her choice at a later date.

This is about the same as the consulate trying to force spouses of US citizens to go the resident visa route when they apply for a visitors visa and get turned down. Same situation there also when it comes to taxes.

Edited October 17, 2008 by ubonjoe

[track61]

I guess I'm pretty uninformed, but what is one of these "He was a "Browning", yes THAT Browning" and how do I get them to adopt me or get in their will.

[dave_boo]

The OP seems to quite aware of the tax issue.

Everybody skipped over the social security tax issue. Every US citizen and resident ("green card") has to pay this on their gross income and there is no break for working or living out of the country. You have to file a tax form every year even if you have zero income.

The OP needs to fight them on this. I don't think they can make him get her a passport. That should legally be her choice at a later date.

This is about the same as the consulate trying to force spouses of US citizens to go the resident visa route when they apply for a visitors visa and get turned down. Same situation there also when it comes to taxes.

Patently false. Only those who's company is awarded a Government contract is obliged to pay those taxes.

[ubonjoe]

The OP seems to quite aware of the tax issue.

Everybody skipped over the social security tax issue. Every US citizen and resident ("green card") has to pay this on their gross income and there is no break for working or living out of the country. You have to file a tax form every year even if you have zero income.

The OP needs to fight them on this. I don't think they can make him get her a passport. That should legally be her choice at a later date.

This is about the same as the consulate trying to force spouses of US citizens to go the resident visa route when they apply for a visitors visa and get turned down. Same situation there also when it comes to taxes.

Patently false. Only those who's company is awarded a Government contract is obliged to pay those taxes.

Sorry but you are only partially correct.

A company pays a portion of the social security. The individual also pays social security and if working for themselves (IE: contract worker) or for a foreign company they pay it all.

[blam]

dave_boo, we obviously come from 2 different Americas.

The visit to the US Consulate in Bangkok reminds me of the America I left. Self grandiose pomposity by pseudo ex-military wannabes? No I haven't renounced my citizenship, but I did leave for good shortly after the day GWB took office. Why is it that no one in the US seems to know the history of the Bush family? Their "mini-mistakes" have been lining the pockets of the ultra rich for almost 70 years; and Americans still aren't paying on the principle, only on the interest. Watch what happens in this latest Bush scenario. 50 years from now, my grandaughter will be paying taxes to a country that has to pay interest to the grandkids of the heads of Halliburton. Oh, VP Dick Cheney is an active VP of Halliburton too, right? Hello.

Then again, I also left my father's house the day I turned 18, worked days in construction and went to school at night, that for 10 years. I did not get any assistance from anywhere, just formed a lot of opinions about pompous imperialistic post modern ultra conservative 'reality TV watching' blurt monkeys. Ever watch "Mad Men", see how it is done and how easy it is? FOX channel loves those kind of people.

Microsoft: Try inventing something from air, everybody that has never done it then looks at the long term production afterward, finds flaws, then sneers and smacks about how lacking it is. Just try it. (Bruce Schneier help me here)

My lawyer buddy does Thai family law, I never said he was my tax consultant.

I am an old guy. My family means everything to me. I do not trust the American world of the last 8 years, it is a muddle of lies, deceit, make believe, and 'no-bid contracts'. No bid contracts? (Wow, let's screw everything us so we have to come back and fix it) I came from a world of having to do the best you could to win a contract for anything, the only "no-contract" deals I ever heard of came from the wells of the mafia. The Bush Doctrine is skewed, not my view of it.

Oh, you just try all the stuff you recommend here, it does not work that way. Any red flag is a red flag. You obviously don't make enough money to have had to grasp the gravity of the situation of being red flagged, nor do your kids have to deal with it either.

America is NOT heaven people. If you make over a certain amount of money, but less than the super rich, you are constantly in fear of your own livelihood. Tax consultants screw this up all the time. Red flag from the IRS with your bacon and eggs this morning? Again, it's called fear. I just don't want my daughter and her kids to be a part of that. Selfish? Just as I don't want her touching a hot wood burning stove either. Hmm. Educated parenting perhaps, not selfish.

That's it for me, I gotta get back to my 4th day of nausea at the US Consulate. Thanks to everyone for helping form realistic opinions... and reminding me.

[dave_boo]

The OP seems to quite aware of the tax issue.

Everybody skipped over the social security tax issue. Every US citizen and resident ("green card") has to pay this on their gross income and there is no break for working or living out of the country. You have to file a tax form every year even if you have zero income.

The OP needs to fight them on this. I don't think they can make him get her a passport. That should legally be her choice at a later date.

This is about the same as the consulate trying to force spouses of US citizens to go the resident visa route when they apply for a visitors visa and get turned down. Same situation there also when it comes to taxes.

Patently false. Only those who's company is awarded a Government contract is obliged to pay those taxes.

Sorry but you are only partially correct.

A company pays a portion of the social security. The individual also pays social security and if working for themselves (IE: contract worker) or for a foreign company they pay it all.

Please reference this page. As noted in your backtrack reply, not "Every US citizen and resident" is required to pay social security taxes. You are correct about having to file though. The remark about the company having to pay the taxes is true, but since the companies in question are American companies with workers assigned abroad, why not? If you open a business in Thailand, and come below that magic 84 000 USD, you don't have to pay taxes. If you go above it, you still don't have to pay Social Security taxes, simply earned income (assuming you'd rather pay Uncle Sam rather than the Thais.