Wat Phra Dhammakaya

[mmushr00m]

One of my bosses is a follower of Dhammakaya and he recently told me that they have finished a 1.5x sixe statute of Luang Por Sodh made out of 1000kgs of gold.

He also suggested I pay the temple a visit to learn about meditation.

I like the design of the place actually but I think the 1mil Buddha images is a bit much. It shows a willingless to "go beyond", new ideas and new ways of thinking. Its different and reminds me of the Lotus Temple of the Bahai

Been to the temple above with the mumified monk. Its at Ampawa, felt the lifelike statue to be creepy.

BTW anyone know where I can find more info on Luang Por Sodh? just noticed that boss's office has his statues everywhere.

Edited November 4, 2008 by mmushr00m

[AmeriThai]

Been to the temple above with the mumified monk. Its at Ampawa, felt the lifelike statue to be creepy.

Yes, that's the place. I think the wat might be called Wat Chula Manee. The statue does look a bit unnerving, but the entire room is very peaceful, ornate, and well worth seeing.

[fabianfred]

The Dhammkaya is really a different form of meditation from the traditional vipassana and samatha styles. Although the dhammakaya is still really samatha (concentration) meditation. The founder was Luang por Sod at Wat Pak nam. He found and started to practise the style by himself. After his death it was continued by his disciples. It is not very well known, that Luang Por Sod studied and practised Vipassana at Wat Mahathat in Bangkok, but he knew that his time left was too short to change over and start to teach Vipassana. Although his personal practise took him to the Arahant stage, he didn't have enough time left to gain the experience in order to teach it to others. After his death his followers destroyed evidence that he had studied vipassana, because they wanted to each only dhammakaya.

(about the claim that Luang por Sod is arahant)

He never said it himself...... that would be a Parachicca offense......uwat uttari manussadham thi mai mii nay ton

It was spoken of by his teacher and preceptor (at Wat Mahathat) to another student who is now knowen as luang Por jaran the abbot of wat Amphawan Singhburi.... who was both a student of Luang Por Sod and wat mahathat...and is now also considered to be an Arahant ( again not admitted by himself)

I very much disagree with their claim that theirs is the only way to practise meditation to achieve Nirvana.....

Samatha meditation was practised long before the Buddha was born in his final birth.... but it is Vipassana or Insight meditation which is the way to Nirvana. This was unknown before the Buddha taught it in his Four Foundations of Mindfulness.

[fabianfred]

'Life as a Siamese monk' by Richard Randall is the book which introduced me to Luang por Wat pak Nam..

He was the first westerner ordained in Thailand at luang Por's temple in 1954

http://www.chezpaul.org.uk/buddhism/articles/kapilvdo.htm

Edited November 14, 2008 by fabianfred

[camerata]

At 11.30 this Friday on BBC World (True Channel 53) the programme Peschardt's People will feature Wat Dhammakaya's Phra Nicholas, a Western monk who has made the sect "his life's work". From the forum on Dhammakaya's media channel:

"Michael and his team become the first foreign camera crew to be allowed to film inside the world's biggest Buddhist temple, being designed to house more than a million pilgrims. Michael is also shown around the complex by one of the monks, Phra Nicholas."

[Boater]

At 11.30 this Friday on BBC World (True Channel 53) the programme Peschardt's People will feature Wat Dhammakaya's Phra Nicholas, a Western monk who has made the sect "his life's work". From the forum on Dhammakaya's media channel:

"Michael and his team become the first foreign camera crew to be allowed to film inside the world's biggest Buddhist temple, being designed to house more than a million pilgrims. Michael is also shown around the complex by one of the monks, Phra Nicholas."

Is that AM or PM ??

[camerata]

11.30 am.

[mrducky]

Hi guys

how timely.... i have been looking for a meditation retreat in thailand for december.... some how I managed to come across the following: www dot meditationthai dot org which is run by the "Dhamma Research for Environment Foundation". At first I thought it was a commercialised meditation retreat judging from the site and pictures of the venue. They even provide the 8 hour bus ride to Loei!! All this for 5500 THB!!

When I dug deeper, I realised that the point of bus departure was from Wat Phra dhammakaya!! I did more digging and found that this was the wat that my ex boss was a member of. I heard from my colleagues she gave several hundred thousand baht a year to this temple!! Not just that but she kept trying to recruit me to attend meditation at the wat (she knew I practice meditation). She told me they have centres all over the world and they have a 24 hour tv channel, which I somehow had access to at home. Only one word could describe the channel: "FREAKY"!!!

Anyhow, said boss left my company then became a full time volunteer at their other centres overseas!!She was highly educated and definitely upper middle class.... makes you wonder what is it about these places that draws in the educated masses.

As for myself, I am still deciding whether to attend this retreat (it is not at the Wat itself) or to go to those Goenka ones.... I attended the one at Wat Kow Tahm earlier this year and while I didn't regret going, I know I won't be going again!! It was very tough...

What do you guys think?

[Samuian]

............edited.....

What do you guys think?

a.) If self proclaimed Buddhists would really have understood the teachings of the Gautama, there wouldn't be any "Buddhists"!

b.) The observer is the observed!

c.) all kind of "clubs", associations, dhammawhateverthing... will tie the individual into illusion, than providing the base for "enlightenment"!

my 2 cents..

[mmushr00m]

Hi guys

how timely.... i have been looking for a meditation retreat in thailand for december.... some how I managed to come across the following: www dot meditationthai dot org which is run by the "Dhamma Research for Environment Foundation". At first I thought it was a commercialised meditation retreat judging from the site and pictures of the venue. They even provide the 8 hour bus ride to Loei!! All this for 5500 THB!!

When I dug deeper, I realised that the point of bus departure was from Wat Phra dhammakaya!! I did more digging and found that this was the wat that my ex boss was a member of. I heard from my colleagues she gave several hundred thousand baht a year to this temple!! Not just that but she kept trying to recruit me to attend meditation at the wat (she knew I practice meditation). She told me they have centres all over the world and they have a 24 hour tv channel, which I somehow had access to at home. Only one word could describe the channel: "FREAKY"!!!

Anyhow, said boss left my company then became a full time volunteer at their other centres overseas!!She was highly educated and definitely upper middle class.... makes you wonder what is it about these places that draws in the educated masses.

As for myself, I am still deciding whether to attend this retreat (it is not at the Wat itself) or to go to those Goenka ones.... I attended the one at Wat Kow Tahm earlier this year and while I didn't regret going, I know I won't be going again!! It was very tough...

What do you guys think?

I visited that site too. The one where they had movie clips where the interviewed people who attended the programems??

There is also another one Middle way meditation. I think they arev the same, although the website looks alot better, less creepy.

My boss is also member of the temple and has also encouraged me to join the meditation retreat in Loei. The 7day program. I managed to escape by saying I have the attention span of a chipmunk on speed.

But on the flip side, I have heard good things about the program from people who have tried it. They seem serene (or is it brainwashed???!!!!).

The progam is a 7day program where you live in segagrated areas with no access to anything from the outside world.

[Brucenkhamen]

As for myself, I am still deciding whether to attend this retreat (it is not at the Wat itself) or to go to those Goenka ones.... I attended the one at Wat Kow Tahm earlier this year and while I didn't regret going, I know I won't be going again!! It was very tough...

What do you guys think?

If you thought Wat Kow Tahm was tough then don't go on a Goenka retreat.

Suanmokh would probably be more suitable for you, see http://www.suanmokkh.org/ there are probably a few others people can recommend.

[mrducky]

Hi guys

how timely.... i have been looking for a meditation retreat in thailand for december.... some how I managed to come across the following: www dot meditationthai dot org which is run by the "Dhamma Research for Environment Foundation". At first I thought it was a commercialised meditation retreat judging from the site and pictures of the venue. They even provide the 8 hour bus ride to Loei!! All this for 5500 THB!!

When I dug deeper, I realised that the point of bus departure was from Wat Phra dhammakaya!! I did more digging and found that this was the wat that my ex boss was a member of. I heard from my colleagues she gave several hundred thousand baht a year to this temple!! Not just that but she kept trying to recruit me to attend meditation at the wat (she knew I practice meditation). She told me they have centres all over the world and they have a 24 hour tv channel, which I somehow had access to at home. Only one word could describe the channel: "FREAKY"!!!

Anyhow, said boss left my company then became a full time volunteer at their other centres overseas!!She was highly educated and definitely upper middle class.... makes you wonder what is it about these places that draws in the educated masses.

As for myself, I am still deciding whether to attend this retreat (it is not at the Wat itself) or to go to those Goenka ones.... I attended the one at Wat Kow Tahm earlier this year and while I didn't regret going, I know I won't be going again!! It was very tough...

What do you guys think?

I visited that site too. The one where they had movie clips where the interviewed people who attended the programems??

There is also another one Middle way meditation. I think they arev the same, although the website looks alot better, less creepy.

My boss is also member of the temple and has also encouraged me to join the meditation retreat in Loei. The 7day program. I managed to escape by saying I have the attention span of a chipmunk on speed.

But on the flip side, I have heard good things about the program from people who have tried it. They seem serene (or is it brainwashed???!!!!).

The progam is a 7day program where you live in segagrated areas with no access to anything from the outside world.

mmushr00m

Yes, this is definitely the same as the "Middle Way" Retreat.... When I tried to google this, there were few articles/entries, except for "Travel + Leisure" magazine.... not much else and no real mention or connection to the Wat.

I'm just curious, who do you know who attended the Loei retreat other than your boss? If they are already affiliated with the temple, then I may agree with you about being brainwashed. If they are not, then it could be just the effects of meditation. This particular 7 day retreat looks like a walk in the park compared to other 10 day ones, because of the shorter hours, nicer accommodation and you don't have to maintain silence. Furthermore, if the retreat does NOT force on you the temple's full religious teachings and just teaches you the pure meditation technique then perhaps its not so bad.

Any intensive meditation retreat will definitely benefit the practitioners. I attended the one at Wat Kow Tahm, and I can tell you that I definitely benefited from it.. for all of 3 days after I left the retreat LOL because my monkey brain came back. If you haven't tried meditation, you should try at least once.

[mrducky]

As for myself, I am still deciding whether to attend this retreat (it is not at the Wat itself) or to go to those Goenka ones.... I attended the one at Wat Kow Tahm earlier this year and while I didn't regret going, I know I won't be going again!! It was very tough...

What do you guys think?

If you thought Wat Kow Tahm was tough then don't go on a Goenka retreat.

Suanmokh would probably be more suitable for you, se there are probably a few others people can recommend.

Yeah, I'm a pansy ... heheh, but so far lots of ppl I know have recommended the Goenka one..

I was definitely considering suan mokkh, but due to the bad timing (I want to meditate end of Dec), this one is out of the question. I am thinking of attending a 5 day one at www dot dipabhavan dot com, which is related to Suan Mokkh, but will have to check the schedule.

[khaowong1]

As for myself, I am still deciding whether to attend this retreat (it is not at the Wat itself) or to go to those Goenka ones.... I attended the one at Wat Kow Tahm earlier this year and while I didn't regret going, I know I won't be going again!! It was very tough...

What do you guys think?

If you thought Wat Kow Tahm was tough then don't go on a Goenka retreat.

Suanmokh would probably be more suitable for you, se there are probably a few others people can recommend.

Yeah, I'm a pansy ... heheh, but so far lots of ppl I know have recommended the Goenka one..

I was definitely considering suan mokkh, but due to the bad timing (I want to meditate end of Dec), this one is out of the question. I am thinking of attending a 5 day one at www dot dipabhavan dot com, which is related to Suan Mokkh, but will have to check the schedule.

mrducky, e-mail this monk, he's an American who studied under Ajahn Chah. He's been a monk and living in Thailand for about 30 years. He can probably suggest several places to attend. Ajahn Sumano.

Edited November 30, 2008 by camerata
Email address deleted as per forum rules.

[sabaijai]

I recently came across this amusing 2002 Slate.com article about Dhammakaya.

http://slate.msn.com//?id=2068541&&entry=2068575

I'm going to merge all the different threads on Dhammakay into this thread, for the convenience of those seeking info here.

[Xangsamhua]

Been to the temple above with the mumified monk. Its at Ampawa, felt the lifelike statue to be creepy.

Yes, that's the place. I think the wat might be called Wat Chula Manee. The statue does look a bit unnerving, but the entire room is very peaceful, ornate, and well worth seeing.

There's a temple in Sisaket province with a well preserved monk in a glass coffin. He was believed by villagers to have been over 400 years old when he died, but the abbot told me he was just very old. I went to this place, not far from the Cambodian border, a couple of years ago but can't remember the name of it. Does anyone know?

[mrducky]

I recently came across this amusing 2002 Slate.com article about Dhammakaya.

I'm going to merge all the different threads on Dhammakay into this thread, for the convenience of those seeking info here.

LOL loved the entry.... will definitely share this!

[sabaijai]

I've recently read through the Bangkok Post frontpage archives for 1999 for a work project unrelated to Wat Dhammkaya and came across these headlines. The stories were full of details on abbot Phra Dhammachayo's wealth.

Following the abbot's arrest, he was cleared with the help of influential TRT-allied Dhammakaya supporters. It's interesting to note that the Supreme Patriarch took a clear stance against the abbot.

Jan. 7

Wat Dhammakaya linked to 100 shell firms – Abbot’s relatives said to hold posts

Jan. 8

Nationality of abbot to be checked

Jan. 15

Temple has 30 branches worldwide – in process of buying old Chicago church

Jan. 16

Temple to allow check of wealth

Feb. 2

Prince in support of probe - Arkom

Mar. 2

Arson of wat critic's home

Apr. 6

Alliance calls for abbot to be disrobed

Apr. 23

Abbot refuses to transfer land titles

May 5

Cabinet orders action on Supreme Patriarch's wish that abbot be defrocked and that he turn over land to the temple

May 26

Abbot stalls transfer of all property - Giving up land seen as admitting guilt

May 30

Abbot lays conditions on land transfer - Wants guarantee he won't be prosecuted

Aug. 7

Tight security for nothing as abbot refuses to show up - Doesn't recognize layman's charges

Aug. 13

Lay charges filed against abbot are thrown out

Aug. 24

Warrant out for abbot's arrest

Aug. 25

Abbot refuses to face charges

Aug. 26

Abbot freed on bail and vows to fight charges

Oct 22

Arrest warrant out for abbot

Oct. 29

Brief scuffle as abbot surrenders

[fabianfred]

Cult or mot....they are good at organising large events....

In Fang last weekend they organised a mass alms-giving ceremony for 1000 monks and novices..... very well attended.

for pix look at my Flickr account here...... http://www.flickr.com/photos/28361002@N07/

[sabaijai]

Nice photos. Off topic, but could you tell us more about the unusual temple depicted in this photo?

[fabianfred]

Nice photos. Off topic, but could you tell us more about the unusual temple depicted in this photo?

That is in a refugee camp for Shan (Tai Yai) right near the border in Wiang Haeng district of ChiangDao .....

[sabaijai]

Thanks for the info. I didn't know there was a refugee camp in Wiang Haeng, been through a couple of times and must have missed it.

[SeerObserver]

a.) If self proclaimed Buddhists would really have understood the teachings of the Gautama, there wouldn't be any "Buddhists"!

Interesting statement. Is this to say that there wouldn't be any Buddhists since everyone would have reached arahantship and lifted themselves out of the cycle of samsara by now?

Or did you mean it along the lines of the more common criticism of "religious" people that labels shouldn't be applied, judgments made, etc.?

[SeerObserver]

Yes they play that TV channel at all their centres in a sort of indoctrinating fashion and when they meditate en mass at the big temple near Bangkok Airport they sit in a Hitleresque way in a triangle all perfect and ordered. I used to run a Buddhist discussion group in Bkk abd nothing good was ever said about them. Several top Thai ministers are members.

Has anyone anything to say about this being a source of the temple's success as well as its criticism? Just a couple of suggestions...

• Politicians who did wrong may have made the temple guilty by association.
  
• The temple can also be criticized as a means to discredit someone whose agenda doesn't fit yours.
  

[Siripon]

The temple has played host to TRT, come PPP, come Peua Thai rallies for sometime.

There's a well known investor and property speculator called Sia Song, once a defendant in a big stock manipulation case, who in the 1990s would frequently visit Wat Tammakay; he would disappear into the abbot's quarters and not reappear for some time.

For a while people wondered why and then it emerged the temple was buying large tracts of land in the central north. It seems he was offering financial advice.

The temple used to order breakfasts from a 5 star restaurant, a particular target group of theirs is single, rich or comfortably off Thai- Chinese women. They have gained a lot of money from this group.

[SeerObserver]

Since Siripon bumped the thread, I decided to give it a better look though. Some important points were brought up, but I'm wary. It is said by some that Sia Song learned all he knew from the abbot and then allegedly perpetrated his shady financial activities. Siripon's example is somewhat the reverse scenario. What's the story? Was it one way, the other, or both (a little quid pro quo)?

As for the fancy food, Dhammakaya's congregationers (prachachon) include people from all walks of life. Was this restaurant a business of one of the congregationers, or was this food donated from benefactors? Monks receiving lavish food and gifts is not exclusive to this wat. It would be important to know more details. I don't think it's necessarily that the temple "targets" a certain demographic, but rather the people who have found the temple to be fulfilling spread the word within their social circles. Therefore an affluent congregationer will probably invite like people to attend. It's not as if the wat has a mailer filtered to certain ZIP codes or something like that.

Thank you Camerata. Like you, I'm rather partial to the traditional style of architecture of Thai wats. They are a distinct representation of Thailand that have similar features, and yet each one with their own unique variations. To me, while the modern design style of Wat Phra Dhammakaya is impressive, the design looks more suitable for a business convention center.

It doesn't look like you two are criticizing on this point, but rather just stating your preferences. Of course this shouldn't sway anyone's opinions on a Wat too much. Yes, it's different being in Thailand and all but in the USA many wats and other places of religious gathering occupy structures that were once schools, churches, etc. There is even a Muslim mosque I know of that used to be a bowling alley!

I hadn't noticed the Buddha image you mentioned, but after a search, I'm guessing this must be what you're talking about.

(Click to Enlarge)

I did find a statue of the monk Luang Por Sodh, not a gold one, but life-like color statue. It's well made, but looks a bit of eerie to me.

...

Here's the image of Luang Phor Sodh I mentioned. It was said to have been made of carbon fiber glass. It reminds me of what's claimed to be a perfectly preserved mummified monk at a wat (next to a klong) I saw a couple of years ago. I can't remember the name of the wat though. It's not the one at Koh Samui.

(Click to Enlarge)

The Buddha image used has been a topic of discussion. Some say that it was designed by the abbot to look like himself. There's good shock value to that but after you quickly look into it you discover that there's nothing more to it than that.

As for this image of Luang Phor Sodh, it's actually at Wat Paknam (link). Now it seems that they are on "good terms" with Wat Phra Dhammakaya. The current abbot was actually the preceptor of LP Dhammachayo's ordination, and it seems that they currently coordinate various programs/ceremonies together. Furthermore, if as people often claim, Dhammakaya's doctrine and meditation is not in accord with LP Sodh's teachings then one would think that they would not be in good standing with Wat Paknam for having misrepresented the teachings of their late abbot.

I have seen this picture before somewhere else. It's hard to tell if that is actually LP Dhammachayo, but it could be. I believe this picture was posted with an article or thread post where gold was being discussed. Does anyone know what I'm referring to, or can anyone confirm the ID in this picture and explain what's going on?

[camerata]

My Dhammakaya colleagues tell me that time is running out to get your own gold Buddha rupa placed on the flying saucer building. They need 1 million to cover it (for world peace) and there are only 300,000 spots left. Each one is made of bonded silicon with a coating of gold and has your name engraved on it. A bargain at only 15,000 baht each and guaranteed to last thousands of years. Plus the chanting of all those in the temple will be channeled to you wherever you are after death.

Incidentally, the dome at the centre of the flying saucer building is modeled after the great stupa at Sanchi, in India.

[SeerObserver]

Incidentally, the dome at the centre of the flying saucer building is modeled after the great stupa at Sanchi, in India.

I read somewhere that the design was decided on for spatial and architectural efficiency in placing that many Buddha rupas. That would make the similar design a sheer coincidence. Haha, all tires are not copied off of Goodyears.

Can you verify that this is really the case regarding the design that it is based off of Ashoka's stupa?

[Siripon]

They've got good salesmen at Wat Tammakaya, (pronounced Tammakai). If some lay people are present for meditation or sermons, someone may step forward to make a quite substantial donation; the 'someone' is an insider from the temple though others presume he or she is just a visitor like them. This 'donation' sets the standard for the others present to follow. Group pressure to be seen as not stingy usually works in this instance.

[SeerObserver]

They've got good salesmen at Wat Tammakaya, (pronounced Tammakai). If some lay people are present for meditation or sermons, someone may step forward to make a quite substantial donation; the 'someone' is an insider from the temple though others presume he or she is just a visitor like them. This 'donation' sets the standard for the others present to follow. Group pressure to be seen as not stingy usually works in this instance.

That sounds preposterous. At the main Wat this shouldn't work so well since it's large and more anonymous. You may not know who that donor is and vice versa. You don't think or care that you may look stingy to them because you think that you're just another of the thousands in attendance in their eyes. The bar they set isn't relevant to you for that same reason. You may never see that person again so you may not worry what their opinion is of you. The groupthink would come into play more if someone saw their friends making large donations. Now that I have suggested that, will you proceed to say that the Wat also has some of the attendees stage large donations so as to influence their friends within eye/earshot?

At the other branches, some of which are not very large at all, this wouldn't work either. Most of the people know each other or at least most individuals would be known to several others in attendance. That being the case, everyone knows who the unordained monastics are that reside at the temple and who the attendees from outside are. Same thing comes into play. Someone appearing to be a benefactor would have to be in on it with the Wat. Are these donations staged to influence peers as well?

PS - In another thread, I asked why Dhammakaya practitioners don't really answer to much of what is said on forums I've seen or otherwise. I even suggested that maybe some of the things that are said are so outlandish they don't feel the need to dignify them with response. To be fair, I'm aware of how difficult it would be to offer something substantive at times regarding certain matters.

Edited March 27, 2009 by SeerObserver