Property Crisis ?

[pkrv]

midas - Sorry I am being intrusive - I get the impression you would not choose to live in a condominim, regardless of location either?

yes i would live in one anywhere but I would not OWN one just anywhere

Ok you seem willing to play ball. So we are talking explicitly about the condominium market here. I would agree you need to do your homework and that in 'my old employers speak' this is a 'sales hurdle'. But it is not that bad. Farangs can own the freehold interest 'free and clear' in the 49% forign ownership quota of a condominium. Follow these guidlines:

Stolen from greenside's post on 650k Condos - so usefull I have printed it out and will use the relevent bits (I added point 0.). Obviously no minutes from the AGM yet

0. Check you are getting the on-shore rate for your foreign currency transfer.

1. Get the minutes of the AGMs AND the Minutes of the Committee Meetings.

2. Read The Condo Act; read the Condo Regulations which is a legal document deposited with the Land Office

3. The Condo Association will also have records of what percentage of units are foreign owned. DON'T get stuck with a unit owned by a bogus Thai company.

4. Does the Committee meet as specified in the Regulations?

5. Are the Committee Members approachable and helpful?

6. Speak with as many non-committee member residents as possible

7. Meet the Manager. If he/she won't answer questions and says go speak with the Committee then do so.

8. If Committee says go speak with manager then unless you really like the building and would like to fight all this kind of nonsense at the AGM and during the year, go find somewhere else to buy.

9. Ask for the AUDITED financials; ask for monthly financial statements - they are common property and some good condos put up on notice board for all to peruse. Other condos are/may be secretive. If so, why?

10. Ask about major maintenance projects - sewage and drainage, water and filtration, roof, roads, gardens, painting of outside of building and corridors, elevators.

11. Have the projects planned for the previous year been completed OK? How about any work in progress?

12. Check the basement for damp.

13. Is there a Sinking Fund? Is it sufficient?

14. Is Insurance Coverage enough?

15. What are the yearly maintenance fees? What percentage of co-owners do not pay.

16. Are smoke alarms installed in common areas? In individual units? Are they checked and monitored and/or connected to the fire service?

17. Is there a sprinkler system?

18. Walk the emergency stairwells - what kind of lighting? Does it work? Are the stairwells clear and clean?

19. Check that fire fighting equipment is available and periodically maintained (there should be a record of costs associated with this so you don't just have to take someone's word for it)

20. Check that security personnel are smart, courteous and at their stations.

21. Is there 24 hour coverage by English speaking staff?

22. Does the office staff have name badges?

23. Is the building secure or can anyone just walk in and go where they please?

24. Is the perimeter secure?

25. Is there CCTV and does it work?

26. Are there recordings and how long are they kept?

27. If there is a key card system how often is it changed? How many key cards have been issued? How many are unaccounted for?

28. Try to find out how many burglaries in past 2 years.

29. Are the grounds neat and tidy?

30. Is the garbage room clean and tidy? How often is garbage collected?

31. Availability of (IDD) telephone (data) lines and the cost of same (some condos charge a criminal amount to get a IDD line).

32. Availability of cable TV choice and options for putting up own satellite dish(es).

33. Cost of metered services – water and electricity if supplied by building and cost of changing to own meters.

34. What facilities (residents' lounge, exercise room, etc.) are available and are they in use and good repair? Swimming pool? Tennis court? Is there a charge?

35. Are facilities open to non-residents? This can lead to an increased security risk and different atmosphere with strangers coming and going frequently. Is additional wear and tear on the facilities covered by the charges to non-residents or does the management pocket the takings?

36. Are there karaoke bars or other noisy places nearby? How often? How loud? How late?

37. If there is a view is there the possibility it could be blocked in the future?

38. Check basement rooms for trash, evidence of staff (and their friends) staying there.

39. Parking spaces are common property and should not be allocated.

40. How long to wait for an elevator during high season?

41. How many units are currently unoccupied?

42. How many units are currently offered for sale or rent? Check other prices.

43. Make sure most if not all the units in the building are occupied by the owners.

44. If the management offers to rent condo's on the owners' behalf, how much do they charge and exactly what service is on offer?

And you should be fine. Not easy agreed but then again to buy what I have in Bangkok for what was at the time about 200k GBP would cost millions at number 1 Mayfair. This is the point isn't it?

Please an honest question - Exactly why do you see a problem?

[pkrv]

sorry midas - posts crossed you have sort of answered the question I posed though I don’t agree with your conclusion – May I ask how old you are? This sort of has a bearing I am 49.

[Naam]

Again its horses for courses - 30k GBP can be very significant to some posters and the 80m THB ‘The Park’ penthouses (which I don't own ) are small change to others. From a personal perspective I have done well on my initial 14.5m THB investment, and most importantly it is not actually 'an investment' except in being a home! I currently have no plans to either sell nor rent but am rapidly becoming inundated with such requests -my experiences appear to be very different to yours.

spelled out properly Pkrv! this is the point which is nearly always forgotten when "owners" and "renters" agree to disagree during heated discussions. the choice is based solely on individual perspectives and priorities. one man's 'conditio sine qua non' e.g. building or remodelling a home to his/her exact specifications might be the other man's nightmare and of course vice versa.

personally i have owned and still own more than one home. but as the properties are meant for me (and my wife) to live in, i wouldn't consider them even in my wildest dream as an investment or expect to derive any profit from them at any time. on the contrary... our properties cost money to maintain even when not lived in and as far as the profits from properties i sold are concerned... don't ask me as there were none

however, i respect different opinions and views and i expect from others that my views are respected too.

[Naam]

I didn't say you were forced to have a partner. I meant I would be forced to have a matrimonial partner

or several business partners in a company before I would be allowed to buy land and buildings in Thailand.

I can go anywhere in Australia and even buy a cattle station without having to worry about putting it in

someone else's name.

Buying a condo in your name maybe a good thing for you. As I mentioned in my response to pkrv

it doesn't suit me because I don't regard the condominium laws here to be anywhere near strong enough.

I don't like the idea also of owning assets in a country where I'm single and I am only ever here on a

Visa. Thailand is renowned for changing its immigration laws at the drop of a hat and with the present

political turbulence I enjoy an immense peace of mind knowing that my assets are all

tucked away in my own country and if things got nasty for foreigners here I could just

hop on a plane without any worries in the world.

In Australia I can buy and sell and make all the decisions on my own that is what I mean.

It's simply a difference in choice of lifestyle between you and me

i assume you are Australian because for my [not so] humble self, being a German, all kinds of restrictions exist!

[midas]

Ok you seem willing to play ball. So we are talking explicitly about the condominium market here. I would agree you need to do your homework and that in 'my old employers speak' this is a 'sales hurdle'. But it is not that bad. Farangs can own the freehold interest 'free and clear' in the 49% forign ownership quota of a condominium.

And you should be fine. Not easy agreed but then again to buy what I have in Bangkok for what was at the time about 200k GBP would cost millions at number 1 Mayfair. This is the point isn't it?

Please an honest question - Exactly why do you see a problem?

pkrv I can see it may not be a problem for you.

I think in order to be able to understand my point of view completely, you would need to study

and be familiar with Australia's Strata Titles Act, 1966 ( since amended and improved even further several times )

said that you can properly compare the two systems.

But I'm sure you've got far better things to do with your time.

You also need to fully understand the subtle but enormously important difference between the terminology

" freehold " which you use in your posting above and " strata title " ( or condominium title as here )

You do not have freehold title in the technical sense because you are buying no more than

the cubic capacity of your living quarters and a share of the " common areas".

You are relying on a third party or different entity to own,

administer and repair all the common areas, machinery etc. for the building for it to be able to run

smoothly and efficiently and to resolve and enforce differences on an ongoing basis between

the joint condominium owners.

Whilst your list of items between 1 -44 looks comprehensive enough it doesn't address what I regard

as being most important of all being sufficient powers being vested in someone to be able to resolve

disagreements between owners quickly , decisively and inexpensively. In other words,

someone in authority with sufficient ' clout ' .The Strata Titles Commissioner has the necessary powers.

Take-14 just as one example. This is just one of very many things that you have to worry about

in day-to-day management of your entire building.

Say there were problems between the joint owners as a whole, they would have to go to the expense of litigation

to sort the matter out. How else could you achieve legal enforcement?

There is no one powerful figure here that can make a fast and binding decision in the interests of

all parties. Like I said, they've done it in a half hearted way.

Edited November 14, 2008 by midas

[midas]

i assume you are Australian because for my [not so] humble self, being a German, all kinds of restrictions exist!

I have dual citizenship - Uk and Aussie but I have spent more time in OZ.

What kind of restrictions have they placed on you ? Are you talking

about the Foreign Investment Review Board ?

[Naam]

i assume you are Australian because for my [not so] humble self, being a German, all kinds of restrictions exist!

I have dual citizenship - Uk and Aussie but I have spent more time in OZ.

What kind of restrictions have they placed on you ? Are you talking

about the Foreign Investment Review Board ?

a foreigner cannot buy an existing building without approval by the relevant authority (forgot the name). in nearly all cases that approval (which can take several months) is not denied but what seller will accept a contract with the clause "subject to approval by XYZ-authority" and take his property for an unspecified time from the market?

[pkrv]

midas - I took a look at the Australia's Strata Titles Act, 1966 and comments on it. The funny thing I found was a comment on the act by an outsider.

Nothing is certain in life midas.

"Conclusion The issues involved in strata titles are constantly evolving, with each jurisdiction developing its own solutions.

It is regrettable that there is a lack of uniformity, but it is most important that we each are aware of the problems and solutions attempted in our separate jurisdictions."

Robert Kronberger

25 March 2004

Bob_Kronberger.doc

Edited November 14, 2008 by pkrv

[midas]

i assume you are Australian because for my [not so] humble self, being a German, all kinds of restrictions exist!

I have dual citizenship - Uk and Aussie but I have spent more time in OZ.

What kind of restrictions have they placed on you ? Are you talking

about the Foreign Investment Review Board ?

a foreigner cannot buy an existing building without approval by the relevant authority (forgot the name). in nearly all cases that approval (which can take several months) is not denied but what seller will accept a contract with the clause "subject to approval by XYZ-authority" and take his property for an unspecified time from the market?

Yes that is the Foreign Investment Review Board or FIRB as we call it

http://www.firb.gov.au/content/default.asp

That is to protect Australians from noncitizens buying up huge parcels of land

or expensive real estate assets that could be detrimental to the interests of Australians.

But it generally doesn't stop you from from buying and owning your own house

[midas]

midas - I took a look at the Australia's Strata Titles Act, 1966 and comments on it. The funny thing I found was a comment on the act by an outsider.

Nothing is certain in life midas.

"Conclusion The issues involved in strata titles are constantly evolving, with each jurisdiction developing its own solutions.

It is regrettable that there is a lack of uniformity, but it is most important that we each are aware of the problems and solutions attempted in our separate jurisdictions."

Robert Kronberger

25 March 2004

No pkrv your misconstruing what this refers to. This does no more than refer

to the some differences that exist between Strata Titles Acts in each of the Australian states

i.e. New South Wales, Queensland, West Australian etc. It is not imply any weakness

in the Strata Titles Act that applies within each state. There was just an attempt to consolidate

everything into a uniform code for Australia as a whole. It doesnt detract in any way

from its overall aim and objective and the point I referred to ealier.

I am only familiar with the Act that applies to New South Wales incidentally.

[Naam]

i assume you are Australian because for my [not so] humble self, being a German, all kinds of restrictions exist!

I have dual citizenship - Uk and Aussie but I have spent more time in OZ.

What kind of restrictions have they placed on you ? Are you talking

about the Foreign Investment Review Board ?

a foreigner cannot buy an existing building without approval by the relevant authority (forgot the name). in nearly all cases that approval (which can take several months) is not denied but what seller will accept a contract with the clause "subject to approval by XYZ-authority" and take his property for an unspecified time from the market?

Yes that is the Foreign Investment Review Board or FIRB as we call it

http://www.firb.gov.au/content/default.asp

That is to protect Australians from noncitizens buying up huge parcels of land

or expensive real estate assets that could be detrimental to the interests of Australians.

But it generally doesn't stop you from from buying and owning your own house

we did not need any approval when buying building land in Queensland, but that was in 1997. at that time the restrictions applied to existing buildings only. have no idea whether there were any changes in the meantime.

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

i assume you are Australian because for my [not so] humble self, being a German, all kinds of restrictions exist!

I have dual citizenship - Uk and Aussie but I have spent more time in OZ.

What kind of restrictions have they placed on you ? Are you talking

about the Foreign Investment Review Board ?

a foreigner cannot buy an existing building without approval by the relevant authority (forgot the name). in nearly all cases that approval (which can take several months) is not denied but what seller will accept a contract with the clause "subject to approval by XYZ-authority" and take his property for an unspecified time from the market?

Yes that is the Foreign Investment Review Board or FIRB as we call it

http://www.firb.gov.au/content/default.asp

That is to protect Australians from noncitizens buying up huge parcels of land

or expensive real estate assets that could be detrimental to the interests of Australians.

But it generally doesn't stop you from from buying and owning your own house

When we lived there we were restricted to buying either a new home or buying land and building on it. We were also restricted to just one property, could not have a condo in Surfers as well. We chose to buy land across the passage from Bribie Island and build on it. It was the Foreign Investment Review Board who's requirements we had to meet for the property ownership.

This was back in 89 and the rules change frequently so that probly would not be accuarate today.

We also qualified for a retirement visa at that time and had to renew it every 2 years. In about 2004 or 5 they did away with the retirement visa. Since we already had one they let us renew it, but made it very complex compared to what it had been before. We had to provide all kinds of information not previously required. Our work history starting at our first job, every address we had ever lived in. We were required to carry medical insurance and of course pay taxes. All kinds of medical info and many things that made no sense. This info had to turned in every 2 years. We took this as handwritting on the wall and put our house up for sale and once sold moved to LOS.

we very much liked Australia and the people and miss the birds and wildlife we had there (we lived on 6 acres). But we are very happy being in LOS and do not regret the move.

Edited November 14, 2008 by BEENTHEREDONETHAT

[pkrv]

Interesting replies - I also looked at Australia (Sydney) and I think you could as a foreigner (from a personal perspective this excludes everyone apart from aborigines, ok I am being wicked ) own a house but not rent it and could rent out a condominium if you bought off the plan, I hope I have remembered this correctly.

Midas you are comparing apples and pears. The reason why Thailand is affordable (and Australia from my perspective not) is because it is growing up. There has been a recent change to the condominium act and it will continue to evolve.

This is a bit like drawing water from a tap in Sydney and drinking it and drawing water from a tap in Bangkok – oddly I have a complete filtration system installed and can drink Bangkok water. Is this a fairer comparison?

Edited November 14, 2008 by pkrv

[midas]

hange frequently so that probly would not be accuarate today.

We also qualified for a retirement visa at that time and had to renew it every 2 years. In about 2004 or 5 they did away with the retirement visa. Since we already had one they let us renew it, but made it very complex compared to what it had been before. We had to provide all kinds of information not previously required. Our work history starting at our first job, every address we had ever lived in. We were required to carry medical insurance and of course pay taxes. All kinds of medical info and many things that made no sense. This info had to turned in every 2 years. We took this as handwritting on the wall and put our house up for sale and once sold moved to LOS.

we very much liked Australia and the people and miss the birds and wildlife we had there (we lived on 6 acres). But we are very happy being in LOS and do not regret the move.

Oh crickey yes Beenthere ! The rules of FIRB have changed an awful lot since

1989 as has Australiaas a country. When you were there it was parochial country where shops

closed at midday on Saturday and all day Sunday..

Before I moved to live there I worked in Los Angeles where everything

was 24 hours and just this inconvenience

alone used to really annoy me. Now Australia has developed into a

very cosmopolitan and laid-back country. You wouldn't recognize it today

[midas]

Midas you are comparing apples and pears. The reason why Thailand is affordable (and Australia from my perspective not) is because it is growing up. There has been a recent change to the condominium act and it will continue to evolve.

This is a bit like drawing water from a tap in Sydney and drinking it and drawing water from a tap in Bangkok – oddly I have a complete filtration system installed and can drink Bangkok water. Is this a fairer comparison?

pkrv I didn't think we were talking about differences in affordability? I thought we were

talking about various legal inadequacies regarding property ownership in Thailand

and I have yet another concern - the Thai judiciary ! After all these are the people

who will purportedly resolve any serious differences you may have as joint owners.

As " secure " ownership of real estate anywhere depends very much on the integrity of the legal

system of the country , this would be the last place on earth

I would have any faith in that happening fairly. You would need to read my comments in another thread about my experience

of accompanying a friend of mine to court here in Thailand where he was trying to sue a developer.

After that unique experience I have zero faith in the impartiality or honesty of the Thai

judiciary and particularly where it's farang vs Thai.

Yes Thailand is growing up still but until it addresses the severe inadequacy of not having

a suitable statutory referee for condominium developments then there is an inherent weakness

in owning any kind of multiple occupied building here and I think it's best to rent and

have the money in safer " jurisdiction ".

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

hange frequently so that probly would not be accuarate today.

We also qualified for a retirement visa at that time and had to renew it every 2 years. In about 2004 or 5 they did away with the retirement visa. Since we already had one they let us renew it, but made it very complex compared to what it had been before. We had to provide all kinds of information not previously required. Our work history starting at our first job, every address we had ever lived in. We were required to carry medical insurance and of course pay taxes. All kinds of medical info and many things that made no sense. This info had to turned in every 2 years. We took this as handwritting on the wall and put our house up for sale and once sold moved to LOS.

we very much liked Australia and the people and miss the birds and wildlife we had there (we lived on 6 acres). But we are very happy being in LOS and do not regret the move.

Oh crickey yes Beenthere ! The rules of FIRB have changed an awful lot since

1989 as has Australiaas a country. When you were there it was parochial country where shops

closed at midday on Saturday and all day Sunday..

Before I moved to live there I worked in Los Angeles where everything

was 24 hours and just this inconvenience

alone used to really annoy me. Now Australia has developed into a

very cosmopolitan and laid-back country. You wouldn't recognize it today

Midas

You are right about the changes in australia, there were many while we were there. But we have only been gone from Oz for little over two years ago. So I doubt it has changed to much since then.

But yes the laws changed frequently and regards to retirement never for the better. Every 2 years we ask about permanent residency and they would tell us no way. But I guess it is up to a country to decide who they do or don't want to live there. We are hopefull that Thailand will not decide to do away with their retirement visa as Australia did.

Regards

Beenthere

[midas]

Midas

You are right about the changes in australia, there were many while we were there. But we have only been gone from Oz for little over two years ago. So I doubt it has changed to much since then.

But yes the laws changed frequently and regards to retirement never for the better. Every 2 years we ask about permanent residency and they would tell us no way. But I guess it is up to a country to decide who they do or don't want to live there. We are hopefull that Thailand will not decide to do away with their retirement visa as Australia did.

Regards

Beenthere

What you say surprises me a lot because I got the impression there seemed to be

a closer tie between the USA ( you are American are you not ?) and Australia now than ever before because

I notice now there is a special Visa ( E 3 ) which is only available to Australians

which allows them to live and work in the USA. Because we all know how difficult

it is to live and work there otherwise. I don't know how this special treatment

for Ozzie's came about and just attributed it to closer ties between the two countries

which I would've thought would be reciprocated by allowing someone like your self

to achieve residency. I am sure you would have found it easier now under the new

government because labor government's in Australia tend to have a more relaxed

attitude to immigration issues

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

Midas

You are right about the changes in australia, there were many while we were there. But we have only been gone from Oz for little over two years ago. So I doubt it has changed to much since then.

But yes the laws changed frequently and regards to retirement never for the better. Every 2 years we ask about permanent residency and they would tell us no way. But I guess it is up to a country to decide who they do or don't want to live there. We are hopefull that Thailand will not decide to do away with their retirement visa as Australia did.

Regards

Beenthere

What you say surprises me a lot because I got the impression there seemed to be

a closer tie between the USA ( you are American are you not ?) and Australia now than ever before because

I notice now there is a special Visa ( E 3 ) which is only available to Australians

which allows them to live and work in the USA. Because we all know how difficult

it is to live and work there otherwise. I don't know how this special treatment

for Ozzie's came about and just attributed it to closer ties between the two countries

which I would've thought would be reciprocated by allowing someone like your self

to achieve residency. I am sure you would have found it easier now under the new

government because labor government's in Australia tend to have a more relaxed

attitude to immigration issues

Yes the US does have special ties with Australia. That stems mostly from the Bush/Howard relationship and Australias willingness to go to Iraq and side with Bush on most of his decisions. For the most part I always felt welcomed by the people and felt they were very well liked in the USA. But the bureaucrats were not near as helpful to americans as they were to commonwealth people.

Hope I didn't give the impression we are down on Australia or the people of Australia in any way as we aren't in fact we are very fond of Australia. Never did understand why they chose to do away with the retirement visa but looking at the bright side we would not be living a really great lifestyle in LOS if they hadn't changed their immigration laws.

[pkrv]

Midas you are comparing apples and pears. The reason why Thailand is affordable (and Australia from my perspective not) is because it is growing up. There has been a recent change to the condominium act and it will continue to evolve.

This is a bit like drawing water from a tap in Sydney and drinking it and drawing water from a tap in Bangkok – oddly I have a complete filtration system installed and can drink Bangkok water. Is this a fairer comparison?

pkrv I didn't think we were talking about differences in affordability? I thought we were

talking about various legal inadequacies regarding property ownership in Thailand

and I have yet another concern - the Thai judiciary ! After all these are the people

who will purportedly resolve any serious differences you may have as joint owners.

As " secure " ownership of real estate anywhere depends very much on the integrity of the legal

system of the country , this would be the last place on earth

I would have any faith in that happening fairly. You would need to read my comments in another thread about my experience

of accompanying a friend of mine to court here in Thailand where he was trying to sue a developer.

After that unique experience I have zero faith in the impartiality or honesty of the Thai

judiciary and particularly where it's farang vs Thai.

Yes Thailand is growing up still but until it addresses the severe inadequacy of not having

a suitable statutory referee for condominium developments then there is an inherent weakness

in owning any kind of multiple occupied building here and I think it's best to rent and

have the money in safer " jurisdiction ".

Ok you have sort of made a point. My contract at The Park is about 1 inch thick and covers everything from hanging out washing to the type of stuctural damage that would be caused by an aircraft hitting the building.

From a personal perspective I don't think it is sensible to look at this from your angle. We are juggling

Farang/Farang

Farang/Thai

Land/House ownership

Condominium ownership

Condominium act

Freehold

Leasehold

Rental

Company ownership

Financial ability

Country of origin (FX issues)

Age

Ability to adapt

And the list is endless. You have said you would not buy a condominium property in Thailand because the Thai condominium act is not on a par with Australia and you are not happy with the legal system. Well thats fine these are your reasons. I don't actually agree but then the logical outcome is I own a condominium and you rent a house.

There are downsides to renting to. You can be chucked out at a moments notice - IMO not a very stable way of living. BUT this is Thailand and renting houses is a reasonable way to go.

Edit Sorry just noticed

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Rental-Depos...nd-t222857.html

midas you contributed to this discussion - it brings back memories of renting in the UK when I was a student/looking for my first home - I couldn't wait to get out of the situation.

Edited November 14, 2008 by pkrv

[pkrv]

I am going to fudge my post and add one really important thing for in red kids/no kids.

Midas you are comparing apples and pears. The reason why Thailand is affordable (and Australia from my perspective not) is because it is growing up. There has been a recent change to the condominium act and it will continue to evolve.

This is a bit like drawing water from a tap in Sydney and drinking it and drawing water from a tap in Bangkok – oddly I have a complete filtration system installed and can drink Bangkok water. Is this a fairer comparison?

pkrv I didn't think we were talking about differences in affordability? I thought we were

talking about various legal inadequacies regarding property ownership in Thailand

and I have yet another concern - the Thai judiciary ! After all these are the people

who will purportedly resolve any serious differences you may have as joint owners.

As " secure " ownership of real estate anywhere depends very much on the integrity of the legal

system of the country , this would be the last place on earth

I would have any faith in that happening fairly. You would need to read my comments in another thread about my experience

of accompanying a friend of mine to court here in Thailand where he was trying to sue a developer.

After that unique experience I have zero faith in the impartiality or honesty of the Thai

judiciary and particularly where it's farang vs Thai.

Yes Thailand is growing up still but until it addresses the severe inadequacy of not having

a suitable statutory referee for condominium developments then there is an inherent weakness

in owning any kind of multiple occupied building here and I think it's best to rent and

have the money in safer " jurisdiction ".

Ok you have sort of made a point. My contract at The Park is about 1 inch thick and covers everything from hanging out washing to the type of stuctural damage that would be caused by an aircraft hitting the building.

From a personal perspective I don't think it is sensible to look at this from your angle. We are juggling

Farang/Farang

Farang/Thai

Land/House ownership

Condominium ownership

Condominium act

Freehold

Leasehold

Rental

Company ownership

Financial ability

Country of origin (FX issues)

Age

Ability to adapt

Kids/No Kids

And the list is endless. You have said you would not buy a condominium property in Thailand because the Thai condominium act is not on a par with Australia and you are not happy with the legal system. Well thats fine these are your reasons. I don't actually agree but then the logical outcome is I own a condominium and you rent a house.

There are downsides to renting to. You can be chucked out at a moments notice - IMO not a very stable way of living. BUT this is Thailand and renting houses is a reasonable way to go.

Edit Sorry just noticed

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Rental-Depos...nd-t222857.html

midas you contributed to this discussion - it brings back memories of renting in the UK when I was a student/looking for my first home - I couldn't wait to get out of the situation.

[midas]

And the list is endless. You have said you would not buy a condominium property in Thailand because the Thai condominium act is not on a par with Australia and you are not happy with the legal system. Well thats fine these are your reasons. I don't actually agree but then the logical outcome is I own a condominium and you rent a house.

There are downsides to renting to. You can be chucked out at a moments notice - IMO not a very stable way of living. BUT this is Thailand and renting houses is a reasonable way to go.

Edit Sorry just noticed

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Rental-Depos...nd-t222857.html

midas you contributed to this discussion - it brings back memories of renting in the UK when I was a student/looking for my first home - I couldn't wait to get out of the situation.

Pkrv, in post # 91 you said to me “Ok you seem willing to play ball “

and later in the same post “Please an honest question - Exactly why do you see a problem? “

I have outlined the problems but now you seem to be taking that ball and bat home ?

I only answered your request.

When you were a student as you say, at least it was your country and you had

legal rights and entitlements- do you have those here in Thailand- not even the

Thai people themselves have what we are used to in the West in terms of legal rights

against the state……….

You said

There are downsides to renting to. You can be chucked out at a moments notice –

I say …….. There are downsides to OWING here to. You can be chucked out

OF the COUNTRY at a moments notice because as you said yourself in post # 98

” Nothing is certain in life midas.” !

If I was chucked out I can stay in a hotel or don’t you kind of think I would be

spoiled for choice in other possible locations………………….

If you are entirely comfortable with your purchase, why have you seen the need to

ask me where I see the problem followed by you trying to point out possible defects

in the Australian Strata system –which there are none because it all runs smoothly

. Just enjoy your self and your property.

I enjoy staying in Thailand but I never forget that with a visa I’m only a visitor as

indeed you are also. Whilst I can enjoy everything Thailand has to offer at this

moment in time I I don’t see the need or sense of investing any of my money

in a country where I am just " visiting "

[pkrv]

Thanks midas - you have been very open and I deeply admire that.

What I was trying to achive was, I guess you could say 'to put things in contex' I mean here I was asking questions to see your rational.

Somehow I don't think we are ever going to agree but this is life .

Indeed I am happy and comfortable with my decision, I simply could not understand your thoughs because they heavily clash with my own and I suspect vice/versa. But please give me credit I did try to work out why

But back to subject Property Crisis - Err what crisis?

[midas]

Thanks midas - you have been very open and I deeply admire that.

What I was trying to achive was, I guess you could say 'to put things in contex' I mean here I was asking questions to see your rational.

Somehow I don't think we are ever going to agree but this is life .

Indeed I am happy and comfortable with my decision, I simply could not understand your thoughs because they heavily clash with my own and I suspect vice/versa. But please give me credit I did try to work out why

But back to subject Property Crisis - Err what crisis?

That is quite all right pkrv

No we will never agree because our priorities are at opposite poles.

As a closing remark you referred me yesterday to the other thread

in this section entilted " Rental Deposits Going One Way In Thailand "

It's even more interesting today because it reflects how some farangs

living and working in Thailand believe the locals deal with problems

Your building is relatively new but in time if it becomes necessary

to deal with some kind of major problem you'll find this attitude

prevails even as an owner. I wish you luck because this is why

being a condominium owner in Thailand is like being in a ship

without a real captain.

[midas]

But back to subject Property Crisis - Err what crisis?

pkrv - may be there isn't a crisis clearly visible yet but I

borrowed this URL from another thread in case you haven't seen it.

http://thaicrisis.wordpress.com/2008/11/15...er-over-supply/

If these figures are correct there will be a serious crisis because

so many conditions are much worse around the world now ( i.e.-not just in Asia )

than they were in 1997 and as the article correctly states

" But registrations are in a way a view on the past. The problem with

real estate is lag effect… To build a condo tower takes time…

Seeing the euphoria since 2006, the developpers have launched

a lot of new projects. "

Edited November 16, 2008 by midas

[midas]

pkrv

I added a small line at the end here in case you didnt understand what i am getting at :-

That is quite all right pkrv

No we will never agree because our priorities are at opposite poles.

As a closing remark you referred me yesterday to the other thread

in this section entilted " Rental Deposits Going One Way In Thailand "

It's even more interesting today because it reflects how some farangs

living and working in Thailand believe the locals deal with problems

Your building is relatively new but in time if it becomes necessary

to deal with some kind of major problem you'll find this attitude

prevails even as an owner. I wish you luck because this is why

being a condominium owner in Thailand is like being in a ship

without a real captain. i.e. not the Juristic Person -but a referee

with adequate statutory power and authority

i.e. not the Juristic Person -but a referee

with adequate statutory power and authority

Edited November 16, 2008 by midas

[cloudhopper]

Interesting website Midas thanks for the link.

[midas]

Interesting website Midas thanks for the link.

it is interesting isnt it? did you notice the embedded

hyperlink halfway down the article where it says

" welcome to the age of frugality " If you click on that

you keep going deeper and deeper into other interesting stuff

and i discovered this which I know relates to the USA not Thailand but

it makes me wonder .......................................?

Deflation is Not Coming, Deflation is Here.

* Credit is contracting by any reasonable measure. It would be contracting at a stunning rate if marked to market. And from a practical standpoint marked to market is how it must be considered, even if there is no direct measure (which I might add is on purpose).

* Trillions of dollars of housing wealth has been wiped out, yet laughably some still talk of hyperinflation. There has never been a hyperinflation in history where land prices have fallen like they are now. In fact, there has never been hyperinflation where land prices have declined at all, barring some obscure war zone perhaps.

* Bank writeoffs have hit $500 billion and $2 Trillion is coming. "Yes, That's $2 Trillion of Debt-Related Losses", says Nouriel Roubini.

[pkrv]

Just to make my point clear I made the assumption that we were talking about a property crash from a Thailand perspective.

That there is a crash in the UK is not in doubt. I don't really know about the US etc. Will we see the first ever property crash in Thailand? I somehow don't think so. The more difficult things become, in for example the UK, the more people will leave. They ARE DOING SO in alarming and ever increasing RECORD numbers, and taking their wealth with them.

Last night I accidently saw the first signs of the UK admitting that the Fractional Reserve System had collapsed - A senior UK Finance guy (I couldn't be bothered to take note of who it was as I have long since dismissed the rubbish they talk out of hand), actually turned around and say people must borrow more to shore up the economy - I almost fell off my seat but he did not explain why, so I went back to sleep on what he was saying. That statement would have confused the hel_l out of most people who believe there is a credit crunch (which implies there is no money to lend! Good grief it is conjured in to existence from nothing, growing it on trees would take some effort!)

But those people are going to other countries, only a small number come to Thailand. Although Thailand does offer freehold condominiums, an inexpensive lifestyle (in comparison), is a travel hub, lifestyle for all financial abilities etc. It has not really got its act together in a coherent way. Things like.

Removing Farang restrictions on Condominiums would help - Did you know that The Park was a 5,000 million THB project. The Farang ownership quota disappeared like that! So do other projects in the same league. The sales hurdle and uncertainty would put off some people.

Update of the Condominium Act! Providing a consolidated Thai government official version for a starter would help!

Better visa options for retirees.

A coherent advertising plan saying officially what is on offer (Like Malaysia)

Not sure if land/house ownership would be palatable at this time - I would wait until the benefits are brought in by some of the above worked before exploring that path.

IMO Thailand is still cheap. And the Fractional Reserve System is failing because people are coming out of debt, have assets and are looking around. I think that though some new off the plan projects might fail, things will remain static, and perhaps high end projects, because they are in short supply, may seen a small upward pressure on price. For me since 1995 and taking into account the FX change from 75 to about 50 GBPTHB= about 115% increase in value on paper. And there in ls the rub, I have not intention of selling/renting because I do not believe I would be able to buy back at a lower/similar price in the future (too few high end units, GBP in freefall, no change in Thai condominim laws, yet)

Edited November 17, 2008 by pkrv

[pkrv]

Sorry midas - the link you posted is not currently working. I can't comment.

[HANDYMAN]

Hi there

You appear to be informed on this subject, as an an aside to the main question here. The topic of Bangkok being submerged by the rising sea levels raises a question regarding individuals thinking of relocation to higher grounds. I live in Phetchabun in an area called Khao Koh which is a national park, elevated approx 1000 mtr or higher and my wife has mentioned the number of enquiries from bangkokians about land purchases up here recently. Of course this always goes on but the numbers are a lot higher recently, I wonder if this is purely coincidence, obviously land prices rise and fall with supply and demand and prices regionally, but you cannot see Bangkok land and property prices rising if there is a threat of severe flooding in the wider areas,

those who can will migrate from at risk areas. Already some Bangkok government administration has moved to Phitsanoluk, central/north Thailand or so I hear.

Your views please

David