Serious Electricity Supply Problem - Advice/direction Urgently Needed Please

[Crossy]

AVRs. Tried reading up on them but many sites talk about back up generator AVRs, whilst I am not seeking emergency backup power. Start Here http://www.elect-spec.com/klr_$.htm and here http://www.elect-spec.com/tutorial_klr.htm note that the prices on that site seem a little high.

1) Cope with low voltage indefinitely. Yes, forever.

2) If NOT, how long would it cope with a continuous spell of low voltage. See 1.

3) I know they will cope with momentary spikes and dropouts already AVRs will reduce spikes and dropouts of a few cycles, real blackouts need a UPS

4) Do AVRs consume added electricity to run and do their job. If so what are we talking? Not 100% efficient of course but well into the high 90s

6) Are they noisy? No

7) Where do they fit in the power circuit? A whole house unit would go between your main incoming breaker and the distribution board. Individual units (which may be the cheaper option) fit next to the appliance in its power cable.

8) Do they produce harmful electromagnetic waves or annoying interference etc. to any appliances like TVs for example. Slight, but unlikely to cause issues

5) Are there any downsides you think I may not realise or understand. Not really.

You seemed at one stage to be suggesting (I thought anyway ) that transformers or upgrading my line from the existing transformer .6kms away was the advisable way to go . Earlier you seemed (to me) to have given me answers about AVRs suggesting they would be my best and easiest solution.

The varying advice from myself and other knowledgable people on this board is mainly due to the gradual increase in our understanding of where you are and what you have. For example, the ideal solution would be your own HT transformer. However, now we see the poles it is apparent that they do not have HT and are not suitable for carrying HT cables so your transformer would have no supply

There are a number of options of varying costs, complexity and effectiveness (is that a word) all need investigating so you can form your own conclusions on a cost-benefit basis there is no 'right' way.

Edited November 8, 2008 by Crossy

[Rimmer]

The varying advice from myself and other knowledgable people on this board is mainly due to the gradual increase in our understanding of where you are and what you have. For example, the ideal solution would be your own HT transformer. However, now we see the poles it is apparent that they do not have HT and are not suitable for carrying HT cables so your transformer would have no supply

There are a number of options of varying costs, complexity and effectiveness (is that a word) all need investigating so you can form your own conclusions on a cost-benefit basis there is no 'right' way.

Good round up of a lot of different posts and recommendations Mr C but he's got HT 600 meters away, all he needs is big HT poles and a transformer, that has to be the ultimate best way of getting proper power if gdhm can afford it.

One way or another some very good advice here for gdhm to take to the power department and explore the most cost effective options available to give him workable power and let him enjoy the nice house he has worked so hard to build.

[dotcom]

NICE MAPS. If you look at some previous posts you will see the MANDATORY SIZE and height to be able to carry three phase electricity. Once you have an engineer from the PEA come to your actual location it will be much more clear. They will show your wife where the possible hook up can take place. We insisted on the three phase Transformer to be located on our property. It really is MORE than just a transformer when you look closely and see the list of materials they will put on the written quote. It is NOT a handyman who does this sort of installation. They must be licensed, not kidding. They have to present a thick written detailed plan to the PEA for permission to start the installation. This plan must specify every piece of equipment as they want to tie you into the main high voltage service which could cause great trouble if they were rookies.

This post is exactly where I was headed.

Make detailed drawings or have detailed drawings made. Schedule a meeting with the manager of the P.E.A. office.

As rightly pointed out above because you don't have 3 phase high tension lines coming down the street you are nowhere near being ready for a transformer.

I will suggest once again it is their responsibility to furnish those lines & a transformer. Ask the manager to suggest a timetable.

It is a phenomena know as "progress". Despite what you hear it is P.E.A. responsibility to grow their network to cope with new home construction. Make sure they feel you have spent your last nickel building your house & no funds left to build "ROYAL" Thai infrastructure.

[gdhm]

EXTRACT

AVRs. Tried reading up on them but many sites talk about back up generator AVRs, whilst I am not seeking emergency backup power. Start Here http://www.elect-spec.com/klr_$.htm and here http://www.elect-spec.com/tutorial_klr.htm note that the prices on that site seem a little high.

I am confused by all the different models on the website and the specifications they quote.

Which would seem appropriate (if any)for my house. To recap we have a 30A meter on the pole feeding to 25mm2 cables to 2 consumer units

Of course we do not use all items together but we have 4 x 18,000 btu aircons and 1 12,000 btu, (maybe 3 could be used very occasionally at the same time 4 heated showers 3.5 Kw and 2 multi-points (kitchen sink only 6kw) and (8kw one bathroom). Then 2 fridge/freezers and a chest freezer. after that are many low energy lights 8 with fans, a PC and 2 water chillers, water pump and an automatic gate and security alarm system. 4 TVs and DVD players.

In the house are 3 persons who live in. I guess may max eventually at 5 or 6 but I expect no more than 4 in reality.

8) Do they produce harmful electromagnetic waves or annoying interference etc. to any appliances like TVs for example. Slight, but unlikely to cause issues

Sorry I asked 2 questions and am not sure if your "slight" was in answer to both electromagnetic waves AND interference to TVs or just one of them..

Now based all the wonderful input my wife will contact the necessary Electrical authorities and see what they will do/not do and what costs are involved and what permissions I have to do specific things myself and with which authorised bodies

Is the PEA the same body as my Electric Supply Company or is it a different body only responsible for the infrastructure?

Thanks a Million ALL OF YOU. I have learnt SO MUCH (and can see I have much more to learn as well )

(after this thread peters out I will remove the maps for security/privacy reasons) but they were salient to this thread as I was asking advice.

Kindest Regards

Dave

Dave

[Crossy]

after this thread peters out I will remove the maps for security/privacy reasons

So we're not all invited for beer then?

Keep us informed as to how you get on with PEA (yes that's your supply company).

[kamalabob2]

I recommend you go to www.pea.co.th and look at the Information in English. There are phone numbers, real prices and downloads that will help you. Please let us know how your advise from DOTCOM on the responsibility to make progress goes. I wish that poster is right, BUT I fear it is not really the case. In my opinion the PEA caters to the "common Thai folk", hence the free electric bills for a short time for low usage, yet we do not really see any rebates for insulation, solar installations, etc.. as in a more Modern Nation. As I "picture it" your home site is close to the street on a paved municipal road, with low voltage wires on smaller poles going past your "point of normal cut in" service. Also compounding your grief is that this area PRESENTLY does not really maintain the voltage (or proper current?) and you and your neighbors live with voltage fluctuations. DOTCOM is of the opinion that you might be able to see how soon the PEA paved upgrade will take place in your area. You may or MAY NOT presently need an EXPENSIVE three phase transformer and all the "trappings" if the PEA made your street a priority to upgrade POLES, WIRES, and spaced out PEA owned and maintained TRANSFORMERS. Did DOTCOM actually have that situation and outcome? If so that Forum member accomplished a wonderful thing.

In my situation I have a home building site down a "private non municipal" road. Both low voltage and High Voltage wires already passed by the paved Government road. But it was the MANDATORY requirement to have three phase given our real electrical plans. So since we choose to live on a private road that did NOT have suitable larger expensive power poles (no previous need on this private road for such) it WAS MY RESPONSIBILITY to pay for the labor and materials to safely obtain 3 phase power from the PEA point of "cut in" at the Government road. I was NOT thrilled to be polite, on the 300,000 baht expense, but looking at other more rural homes of a similar size and situation I am thankful we were so close to existing High Power 3 phase lines. I had heard about envelopes to PEA officials from Farang who had special power needs in "off the beaten track" village home building situations. They never hit me for a gift, they took the gamble if I would hire them for the installation.

The PEA local staff can give you an estimate with parts listed in Thai AND English, but it might take a few days. They really have to look some stuff up and get current prices on acceptable cable and other mandatory items. Hard to believe when you see the bird's nest wiring on many utility poles, but with a Farang they will really try to "go by the safety book".

A "development builder" in our area usually builds only small homes with no special power requirements. It is the people who build a Builders Merchant, auto dealership, small factory, even Ice plant who have had experience in hiring a good (or bad) electrical contractor to compete with the PEA installation. Those Chinese merchants are very careful with how they spend money, except when it comes to Mercedes and Overseas University tuition.

[gdhm]

after this thread peters out I will remove the maps for security/privacy reasons

So we're not all invited for beer then?

Keep us informed as to how you get on with PEA (yes that's your supply company).

Speaking on behalf of my wife and mysefl anytime you are coming into our City just PM and you and the other helpers on this thread or who have advised me on other issues in connection with my house will all be GENUINELY VERY welcome (you already have the map and I can supply to hiosue number but bet you'd work it out anyway "its the big very oversized hosue for only 3 people).

Now we've to get my wife's Uncle to finish this house. Since we moved in its like he feels all pressure is off and he has gone form slow to nearly temrinally slow (which he may well be if he doesn't get a move on I am fed up with all the dust and his errors and more errors and saying he has no money. Par tof the problem we have found is thta he has bene paying his worker shit all and of course most have stopped working for him and the others do nto fel inclined to put great effort into it (don't blame them). I gave him 100,000 bhat cash to ge tthing moving but it turns out he was not telling us the truth that he had all the materials covered so he used that for the materials and we ar eback to squre one with mY money now under pressure especially with this power problem. I cna see us all living in the hiouse for several months with little outings to restore some savings and emergency funds. We have bene paying some of the workers for weeks now (he pretends he does nto know (hate this Thai "face"). In our coutnry we would feel VERY embarrassed at what he has done to us due to his own major miscalculations and mounting errors that cost to put right. Really stupid thing is th house is sounda nd a good house butr his attention to detail (which everybody sees) lets him and us down badly. Additionally if he followed instructions and the archtects palns he would not have made 95% of his errors or needed to make amends.

Today I have found ANOTHER problem with his upper flight of stairs. it slopes sideways whcih he can finish and hide but the 6 steps are crazy. 20cm, 19cm, 17.5cm, 18.5cm, 20.5cm, and 34cm. He was told a max of 20cms. I after an hours found out the problem. The archtect assumed a certain ceiling level (concrete part not suspended) of 2.6metres. My builder decided 2.9metres. The Architect assumed 6 steps of 20cms but of course now the Builder YET AGAIN has done his own thing that is inadequate and he needs 7 steps which will bring the step heights to about 185cm each. Bottom flight is OK at 20.05cm approx.

I have not seen my builder but I suspect when he realizes I will not accept his step sizes nor will I accpet the 34 being halved at 17cm whilst the others remain around 19cms+ he will go loopy as it is looking like the upper flight he has jsut redone will have to come out again. I feel it is only a matter of time before he walks out as he has no money and only a matter of time before I am controlling myself not to get my Lawyer involved as he is family. I have a signed contract and he has breached in 10 fold in many areas.

All very sad as I like my wif'es Uncle and I am well aware he has noit made 1 Baht profit on any of this. His fault to be honest a massive understimation of costs despite architects and others warnign him beofre he confirmed price and and contract. We challenged his view when other disgreed but he was adament he was correct and could do it. 2 weeks later he realized he had not done his homework but never told u until too late to redesign the house or downsize. Oncer again this darned Thai face and pride .

Must be the first Farang/Thaifamily where the exteneded family find other options rather than move in. One has gone to work as a cook in Denmark, One is thinking about marrying a Farang she met whilst doing arobics at the lake, her neice (10) will go with her as well (shes mummy on behalf of a don't care mum), My wife's mum has now decided she with the old house getting emptier that she fancies being Queen bee there whilst her sister owner is in Denamark.

Told my wife that the spare bedrooms are for 2 future Mia Noys and 1 Gik. Thank goodness my wife has a good Western sense of humour I think

Kind regards

Dave

[gdhm]

Admin please can you delete previous near identical comment. My new IE8 Beta 2 is playing around and first posted it and then after I edited refused to allow me to repost (Unfortunately it cannot be rolled back to IE7)

after this thread peters out I will remove the maps for security/privacy reasons

So we're not all invited for beer then?

Keep us informed as to how you get on with PEA (yes that's your supply company).

Speaking on behalf of my wife and myself anytime you are coming into our City just PM and you and the other helpers on this thread or who have advised me on other issues in connection with my house will all be GENUINELY VERY welcome (you already have the map and I can supply to House number but bet you'd work it out anyway "its the big very over sized House for only 3 people).

Now we've to get my wife's Uncle to finish this house. Since we moved in its like he feels all pressure is off and he has gone from slow to terminally slow (which he may well be if he doesn't get a move on ). I am fed up with all the dust and his errors and more errors and saying he has no money.

Part of the problem we have recently found out that he has been paying his workers "shit pay" and of course most have stopped working for him and the others do not feel inclined to put great effort into it (don't blame them). I gave him 100,000 baht cash to get thing moving and pay for more workers to get the house finished but it turns out he was not telling us the truth when we said he had enough funds already for all the materials. So he used my 100,000 baht for the materials and we are back to square one with MY money now under pressure (as well as his) especially with this totally unexpected power problem. I can see us all living in the house for several months with little outings to restore some savings and emergency funds.

We have been paying some of the workers for weeks now (My wife's Uncle pretends he does not know (hate these Thai "face" games as i have never been able to get straight answers when I could have been proactive at that time.

Really stupid BUT GOOD THING is that the house is sound and a fundamentally good house BUT his attention to detail (which everybody sees) lets him and us down badly. Additionally, if he followed instructions and the architects plans and measurements ands used a spirit level (as I keep asking all the workers to use) he would not have made 95% of his errors or needed to make amends.

Today I have found ANOTHER big problem with his redone upper flight of stairs (we have had no access since we moved in 11 days ago (how long does it take to knock down stairs and redo for goodness sake) .The stairs slope right to left by 5cms which no doubt he can finish and hide but the 6 steps are crazy 20cm, 19cm, 17.5cm, 18.5cm, 20.5cm, and 34cm. He was told a max of 20cms height by the architect and me).

I could not see why there was problem but after an hour's measuring midday today I found the problem. The architect assumed a certain ceiling level (concrete part, not suspended) of 2.6metres. My builder decided 2.9metres extra 30cms). The Architect assumed 6 steps of 20cms to get from mid landing to upper floor but of course now the Builder YET AGAIN has done his own things that is inadequate and he needs 7 steps which will bring the step heights to about 185cm each. Bottom flight is OK at 20cm approx.

I have not seen my builder but I suspect when he realises I will not accept his step sizes nor will I accept the 34 being halved at 17cm whilst the others remain around 19cms+ he will go loopy as it is looking like the upper flight he has just redone will have to come out again. I feel it is only a matter of time before he walks out as he has no money and only a matter of time before I am controlling myself not to get my Lawyer involved as he is family. I have a signed contract and he has breached in 10 fold in many areas.

All very sad as I like my wife's Uncle and I am well aware he has not made 1 Baht profit on any of this. His fault to be honest a massive underestimation of costs despite architects and others warning him before he confirmed price and and contract. We challenged his view when other disagreed but he was adamant he was correct and could do it. 2 weeks later he realised he had not done his homework but never told us until too late to redesign the house or downsize. Once again this darned Thai face and pride .

I am SO TIRED of the errors and this 10 month nightmare, the ignorance by all the workers and a stubborn unwillingness to never do what they are told, or warned about and few seem able to see problems before they do work and adjust accordingly they just blindly go ahead.

back to crazy oversize of our house (which it now is and for me it feels it too!)

We must be one of the very few Farang/Thai family where the extendeded family finds other options to moving in with us after planning to do so (after we were committed and already building the house big enough for all.

One has gone to work as a cook in Denmark, One is thinking about marrying a Farang she met whilst doing aerobics at the Lake, her niece (10) will go with her as well (she's mummy on behalf of a "don't care and selfish" mum who now plans to marry a Thai but has no room in their lives for her daughter but they have for future children of her new husband to be). My wife's mum has now decided she is Queen Bee at the old house (owned by her sister now in Denmark) so she wishes to stay there.

Told my wife that the spare bedrooms are NOW for my future 2 Mia Nois and 1 Gik.

Thank goodness my wife has a good Western sense of humour ( I think )

Kind regards

Dave

[gdhm]

Thank you kamalabob2 for your detailed and worrying comments about PEA.

We have several reasonably sized developers who build in Khon Kaen Land & Houses being one and the Piman Group being another. Both have transformers in their project urbanisations some containing up to 100 or more houses some are smaller with maybe 50 houses.

They may be sources of cheaper pole and cable installations but if we are talking 300,000 baht there is no way I can do that. I would guess Crossy's AVR solution MUST be cheaper than that.

Maybe I should try to get a buyer and sell and buy smaller on an Urb. where these problems will not be mine and i may have some savings forit all. I am sure our house is worth much more than it cost and land prices in this Muang district of Khon Kaen are really taking off now.

Regards,

Dave

[gdhm]

Voltage readings.

Tonight I found my Multimeter and started testing

I did not find it in time to test Volts on a sustained UPS (for PC) battery backup period (suspect early tomorrow night will oblige for that).

And as they say "The results from the Luxembourg Jury are...." (oldie for UK viewers of Euro-vision song contest)

Nov 11th

Reading at 22:00 210V

Reading at 22:20 209V

Reading at 22:30 209V

Reading at 23:50 207V (surprised I would expect an increase as the night goes on and people go to bed and use less electricity)

Reading at 23.59 213V (no dropouts for some 15mins - spoke to soon).

Dropouts seem to happen throughout the day whatever the Volts are or how often my UPS kicks in. I am not convinced low voltage and the dropouts are related - Any thoughts on this experts please?.

If dropout are heavy usage appliances going on then there must be other aircons being used overnight as I can think of no other heavy usage appliances that would kick in between 2am and 4am but we still get pretty regular dropouts during that period.

Voltage seems pretty awful to me (not much different from our builders supply we endured for months in Spain when my Spanish house had just been built on a new Urb.) but I am only as layman. Perhaps our experts can advise me what these figure mean in reality.

This seems to be a continuous best level based on the last 2 hours 207V to 213V (mostly around 210V-211V) . If it turns out this the best levels ever achieved what does that tell the experts please

Dropouts are about 1 every 10 mins for last hour (aircon obviously affected, light flicker very slightly (at times) but TV and other items do not seem bothered.

Thanks

Dave

Edited November 8, 2008 by gdhm

[gdhm]

Hi again,

Well at

7am Volts were up a lot to 219V

and at 8:50am Volts are constantly switching between 218V to 220V

BUT dropouts are more frequent.

I do not understand why that should be the case when Volts are higher.

Does this mean TWO unassociated problems?

Will continuous to take measurements (Sunday may not be very representative)

Dave

[Crossy]

Morning Dave

I reckon you are correct and there is a problem that is not associated with low voltage, in fact your voltages look pretty acceptable. A 5% variation on the nominal 220V is 209V to 231V so your voltage is fine.

Unfortunately fixing dropouts is most definately in the supply companies ball park although an AVR will reduce the amount of flicker you see on the lights when big loads come on (brown outs).

Do continue monitoring the voltage and record your outages to use as ammunition.

Otherwise, time to get some UPSs for the AV kit and PCs. You won't be able to run your aircons from a UPS but essential lights and fans should be possible.

Edited November 9, 2008 by Crossy

[gdhm]

Hi Crossy

Once again very helpful info

Morning Dave

I reckon you are correct and there is a problem that is not associated with low voltage, in fact your voltages look pretty acceptable. A 5% variation on the nominal 220V is 209V to 231V so your voltage is fine.

Unfortunately fixing dropouts is most definitely in the supply companies ball park. Do continue monitoring the voltage and record your outages to use as ammunition.

Otherwise, time to get some UPSs for the AV kit and PCs. You won't be able to run your aircons from a UPS but essential lights and fans should be possible.

Does AV mean Audio Visual equipment?.

How low volts will most appliances and especially Aircons be happy with (without risk of damage or longevity (provided constant and no dropouts please?

What is the most common (likely) reason for dropouts in private residences and MY most likely causes in your opinion?

(helps me talk with Electricity Provider if I know (or seem to know )a little as less likely to be palmed off or bullshitted if they try that.

Got a battery UPS for PC (by APC) already and it works just fine otherwise PC would crash out many times a day on dropouts and 2 or 3 times on very low Voltage.

Would 210V be the reason Ring tubes take so long to fire up?

Are Aircons and other appliances happy and OK with only 209V if constant and without dropouts?

If so it would seem my main thrust should be on dropouts and accept slow charging tubes or buy more fast starts.

Luckily the low energy EL bulbs have no problems or our one kitchen ring tube on a quick start (but more expensive) charger).

Please forgive my extra questions. As often is the case answers cause some more questions but I have kept them brief and feel I have almost all I now need thanks to you and the others

Crossy you did not mention what AVR capacity I should look at for whole house protection based upon my advised input

(probably got lost in all my other questions Sorry)

EXTRACT

AVRs. Tried reading up on them but many sites talk about back up generator AVRs, whilst I am not seeking emergency backup power. Start Here http://www.elect-spec.com/klr_$.htm and here http://www.elect-spec.com/tutorial_klr.htm note that the prices on that site seem a little high.

I am confused by all the different models on the website and the specifications they quote.

Which would seem appropriate (if any)for my house. To recap we have a 30A meter on the pole feeding to 25mm2 cables to 2 consumer units

Of course we do not use all items together but we have 4 x 18,000 btu aircons and 1 12,000 btu, (maybe 3 could be used very occasionally at the same time 4 heated showers 3.5 Kw and 2 multi-points (kitchen sink only 6kw) and (8kw one bathroom). Then 2 fridge/freezers and a chest freezer. after that are many low energy lights 8 with fans, a PC and 2 water chillers, water pump and an automatic gate and security alarm system. 4 TVs and DVD players.

In the house are 3 persons who live in. I guess may max eventually at 5 or 6 but I expect no more than 4 in reality.

8) Do they produce harmful electromagnetic waves or annoying interference etc. to any appliances like TVs for example. Slight, but unlikely to cause issues

Sorry I asked 2 questions and am not sure if your "slight" was in answer to both electromagnetic waves AND interference to TVs or just one of them..

Volts down AGAIN to 212V at 9:35AM

Thanks in advance (again )

Dave

Edited November 9, 2008 by gdhm

[elkangorito]

It appears that you are a victim of an undersized supply. Unfortunately & as crossy pointed out, this can only be addressed by the energy authority (PEA).

The addition of bigger transformers may not be a solution, particularly if the demand on the 22kV supply line is at its maximum. If this is the case, an upgrade of the high voltage distribution system to your area will be necessary. Further, no such upgrade can occur unless the substation is also able to cope with the demand.

I supply the following link:

http://www.pea.co.th/th/eng/pdf/Project%20And%20Plan.pdf

Power System Development Plans under the 9th NESDP (2002 - 2006)

1. Transmission System and Substation Development Project, 8th Stage (2005 - 2012).

To construct the 115 kV. transmission system and substation in area where the demand is obviously high for 70 substations all over the country in order to strengthen system reliability to achieve the sufficiency.

Problem on voltage drop, outage and losses will be reduced and problem on system operation and maintenance will be reduced too. The total investment cost is 14,296 Million Baht for 8 years.

AVR's will deal with any voltage variations but not with "brown outs" or loss of supply.

Depending upon when the PEA wishes to upgrade its supply in your area may require more expensive alternatives from you. I would suggest you call the PEA & find out if & when such upgrades are going to occur.

If upgrades are a long way down the track, a generator may be the solution. If you choose such a solution, be sure to size it correctly & also ensure that the correct type of generator is used. I would suggest a "standby" generator as opposed to a "portable" generator as the former provides a clean supply with very good voltage regulation. They are expensive. A "portable" generator may not be able to provide a clean supply unless it uses "inverter technology". Also & if you choose to use a generator, your consumer units will need to be modified to prevent "supply backfeed".

PEA 24 hour contact number for your area is 1129: http://www.peane1.com/khonkaen/

[gdhm]

Thank you elkangorito,

Not keen on the generator idea as I am sure it would be costly, relatively noisy and expensive to run. I will go the appeal to the PEA for a solution.

I will leave the main dialogue to my wife. Being a Thai she is a good negotiator and knows how best and appropriate to appeal for help. Me I am very uncomfortable even haggling for discounts and favours and help.

The voltage problems are confirmed tonight. This is not a bad night as so far my PC UPS has not switched to sustained battery backup (only momentarily for quick drop outs)

My Voltage readings have varied during the day between 222V to 198V (usual seems around 209V to 212V

These are today's figures

03:30 214V

11:00 222V

13:30 212V

14:00 208V

15:00 214V

17:30 209V

19:00 200V

19:30 198V (whilst taking this reading a dropout occurred which my multimeter

started to react to. I noted a split second reading of 185V but I

have no idea if that was the bottom or if the multimedia was not

able to record the low before returning to 200V)

20:00 203V

Readings since 17:00 are way below Crossy's +- 5% tolerance for voltage variations.

Good info for the PEA to digest

Regards

Dave

[dotcom]

It appears that you are a victim of an undersized supply. Unfortunately & as crossy pointed out, this can only be addressed by the energy authority (PEA).

Bingo. Got it in one.

Good luck fighting the bureaucracy.

[gdhm]

It appears that you are a victim of an undersized supply. Unfortunately & as crossy pointed out, this can only be addressed by the energy authority (PEA).

Bingo. Got it in one.

Good luck fighting the bureaucracy.

Thanks Dotcom

Update:

Well this is going slow. Luckily my wife knows (she says influential person) who has agreed to liaise between us and the PEA.

They have come out to our house to check my claims and were interested and impressed with my Voltage record keeping. They agree it is not adequate or up to standard.

A week later they advised they had tried something and asked me if their was any improvement.

Regretfully not and they have now decided another line (phase?) needs to be connected to the nearest transformer.

We enquired via our Liaisor after a month as to the progress and he was not convinced anything was being progressed so he asked to speak to his contacts superior. That resulted in a "that's not necessary I will advise you in 24 hours on progress. which he did.

Our Liasor was told 5½ weeks ago that the PEA needed to wait 2 months until they get their new budget for new work. This our Liasor and we have willingly accepted but the officer was told by our Liasor that he will progress the matter with the officers superiors if he feels any stalling or BS occurs.

I will of course report back (as I always intended to do) "one way or the other" as so many people put in a lot of time, effort and gave me much advice on the way forward. Its just slow progress at present and needs patience.

Biggest problem is the time ring fluorescent tubes fire up sometimes taking 30 sec of flashing and dimmed output. I believe maybe these new instant electronic chargers may resolve this IF the PEA fails to be able to resolves the low Voltage at night and early morning .

Situation is now worse of course with the very hot weather and the extra sue fo fans and especially aircons on our phase .

[Crossy]

Good to see that at least SOMETHING is going on

If you get ELECTRONIC (not normal quick-start) ballasts you should remove your starting issues, as a plus they use rather less power

Electronic ballasts are readily identified by them having at least 6 terminals (not the 2 normally found on magnetic ballasts) and the words "Electronic Ballast" emblazoned in large friendly letters on the top They are also a lot more expensive than normal units, if it's 100 Baht then it's not an electronic ballast

Edited February 26, 2009 by Crossy

[gdhm]

Good to see that at least SOMETHING is going on

If you get ELECTRONIC (not normal quick-start) ballasts you should remove your starting issues, as a plus they use rather less power

Electronic ballasts are readily identified by them having at least 6 terminals (not the 2 normally found on magnetic ballasts) and the words "Electronic Ballast" emblazoned in large friendly letters on the top They are also a lot more expensive than normal units, if it's 100 Baht then it's not an electronic ballast

Hi Crossy, Once again thanks for the info. The ones I have seen are by Lamptron and the cheapest is about 179 Baht for a 32W ring tube unit(just for the charger unit - tube excluded).

I am delighted to learn they use less electricity as I was under the impression that they used a tiny bit more to enable them to fire up instantly. Maybe I am wrong or they then used less keeping the tube fired up once started.

Either way, I am sure the cheap type of ballasts I have are using a lot of wasted electricity trying over and over again to fire up (often over a period of 20 secs to 1 minute).

Last night our Volts dropped to 178V for the peak hours. Even the analogue conventional TV tuning electronics were not entirely happy with that nor was the True Visions decoder losing lock twice.

May I ask out of interest Crossy?

If an item intended to run on 220V runs at lower amounts (190V for example) does it use the same Electrical units, less units or more units of electricity. (I appreciate some items will run longer to do their job such as aircons or fridges). For simplicity shall we say a 100W incandescent light bulb (which would burn dimmer on lower Volts but would be on the same time whether 220V or 178V.

Dave

[Crossy]

Electronic ballasts actually WASTE less energy (that's why they use less), the better ones get well into the upper 90%s. Conventional ballasts are nearer 80%.

If an item intended to run on 220V runs at lower amounts (190V for example) does it use the same Electrical units, less units or more units of electricity. (I appreciate some items will run longer to do their job such as aircons or fridges). For simplicity shall we say a 100W incandescent light bulb (which would burn dimmer on lower Volts but would be on the same time whether 220V or 178V.

I always hate this question as it is definitely NOT a simple answer

A pure heating appliance like a water heater has a linear V/I curve (a straight line) so half the voltage gives half the current, BUT the power (Watts) is related to the square of the current (I²R) so half the current gives a quarter of the power. That's why water heaters struggle on low voltage, although they are unlikely to be damaged.

A filament lamp is even more fun as the filament resistance increases with temperature so the V/I curve is very non-linear. Half the voltage will actually give about 65% of the current so the output power will be more than a quarter of its full output. 220V bulbs run off 110V actually burn quite bright (and for a long time).

Electronic items tend to be constant power, drawing more current as the voltage decreases. Unfortunately many of the cheaper power units don't know when to give up and will actually destroy themselves when presented with low voltage (a good reason to get an AVR for your PC and telly).

Motors in your aircon and fridge etc. try to be constant power pulling more juice as the voltage decreases. In this case the I²R losses in the winding increase rapidly causing the motor to overheat and reducing its life (a good reason to get an AVR for your aircon and fridge).

If PEA can't sort your supply issues pretty soon, I'd be investing in small AVRs for the electronics and possible the aircon and fridge. Whilst this is really treating the symptom not the disease it will, at least, prolong the life of your equipment

Edited February 27, 2009 by Crossy

[gdhm]

My goodness that was a full and fascinating and Lightening FAST reply.

A BIG THANKS Crossy. My apologies that my question was a lot more complicated than I thought,.

Thanks for accurately informing me of some of the more common relevant variations in different types of appliances

Kind Regards

Dave

[gdhm]

UPDATE:

Well many visits to the PEA we finally have had movement.

We were told the PEA had finally applied for a budget 4 months ago (after we bypassed the obstructers and broke through in seeing senior officials)

2 months ago we were told the budget had been agreed and we were in a group of 10 jobs that ALL would be done in unknown order by 1st Oct.

21st Mon: my wife phoned them to remind them of the promise and that there are now only 9 days left. She was told we may be slightly delayed as a new Central mall is suing up many of the teams

22nd Tue Tuesday. 3 small holes are dug in our road near our house followed by 3 new concrete electricity poles being inserted.

(A neighbour was VERY concerned they were going to sort out our houses electricity at the expense of the rest of the road (rob Peter to pay Paul). We told them that the whole year we had been speaking with the PEA (and and chasing them) that we were on a "whole street is having low voltage problems agenda and we would never do or allow such a thing. However I also qualified that the neighbours could be assured that if they did not gain/ suffered by any changes that my wife and I we would be straight back to the PEA supporting their cause. They seemed very happy with what said.)

I asked my wife to explicitly ask the men erecting the poles if they were doing the work for our house or the "village". I was a little concerned as they had asked the neighbour where our house was and I did not understand the need/reason for the extra 3 poles in between existing poles near and beyond our house when the whole soi had the same previous spacing of poles).

Th man said he knew he was doing the job due to us and about our house but the whole soi was being increased to 3 phase and the whole soi will benefit. He though we had paid for the job but we said No it is the PEA. He said we are lucky as he thought the whole cost for the complete job was around 50,000 Baht.

23rd (Wed) Nothing was done. My wife was disconcerted. I said maybe they were showing us good faith in installing the 3 poles (still confused why), but now we may have to wait for our allocated the cable crews to finish with Central Plaza.

24th Today: Cable crew arrived. Installed two extra lines of cable cables put up and electricity cut off 2hours and now the power is back on.

Volts 1pm: (low use at this time of day I know) with 3 1x 8,000btu aircons was still 218V so looks promising although with a 6Kw heater also on it dropped to 212V. Not being an electrician I am not sure if too much at one time can affect the house involved OR if that drop would be reflected in the whole soi. If so maybe the transformer 200metres away (feeding many sois) near capacity. Anyway it look promising that thing have improved and more hopefully the periods of by the second oscillating voltage by as much as 12V (an recently on the increase) may now be a thing of the past.

It is now 3:45pm (still before the 5:30 to 8pm peak and with 1 aircon the volts are 221V (15 mins ago it hit 228V). Seems a little volatile (to me) to equipment being switched on between the transformer and our soi (we are 5 houses before termination of line).

I am currently hopeful of a good improvement (hope not false optimism). I have been on the PC 2½hours and my UPS has not done any of its momentary kick in (which I would normally expect 2 or 3 even at this low voltage use time of day (bets is 9am to 12noon normally).

I will give another update in a few days as MANY have helped and advised me in this and other AVR threads.

Question: If anybody knows the acceptable normal x/- voltage tolerance for Thailand's 220V supply I would appreciate it.

I think Crossey has told me somewhere before during the last year but I cannot find the comment in my searching. I believe the UK is 8% max voltage drop (5% for lighting).

I am assuming unless told otherwise by the experts that most/all modern equipment rated for 220V should cope down to 205V and up to 230V without damaging them. Is this reasonable?

Hopefully our adjusted supply will not push either.

Regards to all

Dave

[elkangorito]

Question: If anybody knows the acceptable normal x/- voltage tolerance for Thailand's 220V supply I would appreciate it.

I think Crossey has told me somewhere before during the last year but I cannot find the comment in my searching. I believe the UK is 8% max voltage drop (5% for lighting).

I am assuming unless told otherwise by the experts that most/all modern equipment rated for 220V should cope down to 205V and up to 230V without damaging them. Is this reasonable?

Hopefully our adjusted supply will not push either.

Regards to all

Dave

Using ASNZ3000:2007 (Australian Wiring Rules), +10% and -6% of the supply voltage is permitted.

For Thailand (220v), between 242v and 207v is ok.

[gdhm]

Question: If anybody knows the acceptable normal x/- voltage tolerance for Thailand's 220V supply I would appreciate it.

I think Crossey has told me somewhere before during the last year but I cannot find the comment in my searching. I believe the UK is 8% max voltage drop (5% for lighting).

I am assuming unless told otherwise by the experts that most/all modern equipment rated for 220V should cope down to 205V and up to 230V without damaging them. Is this reasonable?

Hopefully our adjusted supply will not push either.

Regards to all

Dave

Using ASNZ3000:2007 (Australian Wiring Rules), +10% and -6% of the supply voltage is permitted.

For Thailand (220v), between 242v and 207v is ok.

Thanks. Any idea if the same tolerances are acceptable for a supply that is less Volts than Australia's or UK's (220V compared to 230V)?

Last night the supply at its worst was 212V which was around 15V higher than normal compared to a few days ago

This would make me suspect that the Volts will drop in the hot season down to around 200V but I am guessing based on pre upgrade Voltage drop levels in the Hot season being similar. That would be around 10 to 15V better than last year at night.

If I am correct I think this does mean the transformer has too much to do and may nee upgrading at some time as new houses are coming on line all the time. (3 new ones in our small soi this year alone.

I have noticed that our kitchen water heater 6KW knocks around 10 Volts out of our Volts available whilst the 18000 BTU aircons only seem to have a 2-3 Volts effect (after the upgrade to 3 phase).

I don't know if 3 phase need to be balanced between users and of course if so whether we are on a lower one at present or higher. Not up on the logic of 3 phase.

Dave

[david96]

One might just wonder why you did not get the problem of your electricity supply organised before you build your house.

That is calculate the max demand of the instalation and the approach the Supply Authority

to see if they can supply that load and if you would be required to pay for part the capital cost

of any upgrade. They would then decide if you require a single phase or three phase supply.

Most domestic residences only require a single phase supply.(32A) in Thailand.

Do you really need a 6 kw heater? Use LPG for cooking.

The 3 RACs of 8000Btu/ 2344watts. Do you really need these running all day long?

Use solar HWS for water heating.

Use energy efficient luminaires.

And yes, use an UPS on your computer systems and perhaps your AV equipment.

Instal 30ma RCDs on all final subcircuits for safety.

Surprising what can be achieved by a bit of load management. If you can see if you can

hire for a week or so a voltage /current recorder and connect to your incoming mains

supply. This will record all variations, dips, blackouts and load current.

This is the evidence of your power supply problems.

As Crossy has mentioned supply volts should be between +6% and -6% of 220V nominal.

Australia has a 240V system that is why they went to +10% and -6%.

Edited September 25, 2009 by david96

[elkangorito]

My comments in blue.

Question: If anybody knows the acceptable normal x/- voltage tolerance for Thailand's 220V supply I would appreciate it.

I think Crossey has told me somewhere before during the last year but I cannot find the comment in my searching. I believe the UK is 8% max voltage drop (5% for lighting).

I am assuming unless told otherwise by the experts that most/all modern equipment rated for 220V should cope down to 205V and up to 230V without damaging them. Is this reasonable?

Hopefully our adjusted supply will not push either.

Regards to all

Dave

Using ASNZ3000:2007 (Australian Wiring Rules), +10% and -6% of the supply voltage is permitted.

For Thailand (220v), between 242v and 207v is ok.

Thanks. Any idea if the same tolerances are acceptable for a supply that is less Volts than Australia's or UK's (220V compared to 230V)?

Australia's electrical rules come from the IEC regulations, the only difference being Australian climatic conditions. Australia's official supply voltage is 230v single phase & 400v 3 phase. The tolerances I mentioned are acceptable for Thailand.

Last night the supply at its worst was 212V which was around 15V higher than normal compared to a few days ago

This would make me suspect that the Volts will drop in the hot season down to around 200V but I am guessing based on pre upgrade Voltage drop levels in the Hot season being similar. That would be around 10 to 15V better than last year at night.

If I am correct I think this does mean the transformer has too much to do and may nee upgrading at some time as new houses are coming on line all the time. (3 new ones in our small soi this year alone.

I have noticed that our kitchen water heater 6KW knocks around 10 Volts out of our Volts available whilst the 18000 BTU aircons only seem to have a 2-3 Volts effect (after the upgrade to 3 phase).

I don't know if 3 phase need to be balanced between users and of course if so whether we are on a lower one at present or higher. Not up on the logic of 3 phase.

Dave

It sounds like you no longer have an extreme voltage variation problem. As long as your voltages remain between about 240v & 207v, you should be ok.

Since your supply has been changed from single phase to 3 phase, has your house load been balanced across the 3 phases? If not, this needs to be done in order to minimise voltage drop problems.

You indicate that the PEA have upgraded certain things but without knowing exactly what has been done, one cannot tell the future nor can one tell if the distribution transformer is in any way, a problem.

One might just wonder why you did not get the problem of your electricity supply organised before you build your house.

That is calculate the max demand of the instalation and the approach the Supply Authority

to see if they can supply that load and if you would be required to pay for part the capital cost

of any upgrade. They would then decide if you require a single phase or three phase supply.

Most domestic residences only require a single phase supply.(32A) in Thailand.

Do you really need a 6 kw heater? Use LPG for cooking.

The 3 RACs of 8000Btu/ 2344watts. Do you really need these running all day long?

Use solar HWS for water heating.

Use energy efficient luminaires.

And yes, use an UPS on your computer systems and perhaps your AV equipment.

Instal 30ma RCDs on all final subcircuits for safety.

Surprising what can be achieved by a bit of load management. If you can see if you can

hire for a week or so a voltage /current recorder and connect to your incoming mains

supply. This will record all variations, dips, blackouts and load current.

This is the evidence of your power supply problems.

As Crossy has mentioned supply volts should be between +6% and -6% of 220V nominal.

Australia has a 240V system that is why they went to +10% and -6%.

I totally agree David. Also, see above for Australian supply voltage.

[david96]

In Australia we were smart enough to adopt the IEC standard of 230V without actually changing the actual voltage from 240 to 230. This would not have been practical. So we just went to 230V +10% / -6%. (253 / 216) We still refer to it as"240"volt system. Calculations are done at 230V. AS3000/2007.

Thailand is +6% / -6% of 220 is 233 /207

The IEC standard. 230V +/-6% is 244 / 216

Remember a lot of electrical equipment manufactured in Thailand for local use is marked as 220V. Problems can arise if used in Australia where the voltage is usually between 239 and 245 in practice.

And also on equipment marked 230V max. Eg light dimmers and electronic ballasts,may overheat and partially fail after a period of time if used on 240 volts.

"230 volt max" is not 220 to 240 volts or 230 +/- 6% or 230 +10% -6%

Sometimes it is important to check nameplate ratings.

Edited September 25, 2009 by david96

[gdhm]

One might just wonder why you did not get the problem of your electricity supply organised before you build your house.

That is calculate the max demand of the instalation and the approach the Supply Authority

to see if they can supply that load and if you would be required to pay for part the capital cost

of any upgrade. They would then decide if you require a single phase or three phase supply.

Most domestic residences only require a single phase supply.(32A) in Thailand.

Do you really need a 6 kw heater? Use LPG for cooking.

The 3 RACs of 8000Btu/ 2344watts. Do you really need these running all day long?

Use solar HWS for water heating.

Use energy efficient luminaires.

And yes, use an UPS on your computer systems and perhaps your AV equipment.

Instal 30ma RCDs on all final subcircuits for safety.

Surprising what can be achieved by a bit of load management. If you can see if you can

hire for a week or so a voltage /current recorder and connect to your incoming mains

supply. This will record all variations, dips, blackouts and load current.

This is the evidence of your power supply problems.

As Crossy has mentioned supply volts should be between +6% and -6% of 220V nominal.

Australia has a 240V system that is why they went to +10% and -6%.

Hi David ,

The question of why I did not get this sorted out has been discussed a years ago. I live in Khon Kaen city in its Muang central district. My wife's Aunt's house is just 0.4 of a Km (only 2 sois away) and I lived there for 10 months where the supply was perfect throughout (except a few blackouts at times) . It never occurred to me that there would be a problem only 2 small sois away in a large city (my mistake - live and learn- in this case the hard way).

I admitted at the time I had only ever been an office clerk not a builder and although I have learned a lot checked out phone internet water drainage etc. I let the electricity slip. Neighbours told us the supply was OK but I now realize they had used little supply and has no items such a aircons. Even later I found out that their OK meant they were not happy but it worked and they had themselves via Village head complained to the PEA before we got there.

To err is human and I proved it. My mistake .

Most domestic residences only require a single phase supply.(32A) in Thailand.

I would guess with only 3 of us (on 6yr old) we are the same. However, we anticipated originally we would be 6 and the house is large 2 lounges 5 bedrooms. We have 5 aircons but would never be using more than 3 at any one time (normally 2 at night 1 during the day.

Biggest possible loads at one time. freezer, 2 fridges, 2 TVs 2 aircons maybe the 8kw upstairs water heater for bath/shower/taps being used when the kitchen water heater 6KW is on washing dishes,plusa few low energy lights, water pump.

This would be a rare worst case scenario for a few minutes max.

We were told by the PEA 15A was not good enough and to fit cable to cater for 30A and they changed their meter fuse accordingly.

Do you really need a 6 kw heater? Use LPG for cooking.

I should have said Water heater sorry for the important omission David. We use LPG for all cooking except kettle, rice boiler and toaster, microwave (not often used)

The 3 RACs of 8000Btu/ 2344watts. Do you really need these running all day long?

I never said I had these running all day. I was just testing the load? Normally we have one at time during the day where I use my PC and two at night my wife's and my bedroom (18000 btu) and my stepson's (12000 btu)

We get though an average of 28 to 34 units per day (latest month was 1013 for a 30 day period) depending on month/heat outside.

Without the two aircons at night (mine is set to 23C which I need being very obese)we would being using half that

Use energy efficient luminaires.

we do in most places. where we use ring fluorescent lighting we use the energy saving electronic ballasts (helped fire themup as the metal ballasts often did not cope before the upgrade.

Use solar HWS for water heating..

Well to be honest I think the outlay cost would outweigh the cost of what we use for many years (although I agree with your logic) and I could not afford all energy saving devices. If I could have I would have started with double glazing then solar panel for water then photosensitive panels for electricity.

I did by aac bricks and roof insulation, black out curtains for our bedroom all help but to be honest except for my bedroom the bricks have been a bog expensive disappointment as the single glass windows seem to totally nullify the good work they may be doing.

And yes, use an UPS on your computer systems and perhaps your AV equipment.

I do use a UPS for my PC (have for 10 years in Spain and here)

Instal 30ma RCDs on all final subcircuits for safety.

we have 2 fuse boxes with 16 individual breakers in each (plus main breaker). One box holds all the 32A and 20A breakers. The others are all 16A breakers

Each box has its own C63 breaker switch (see pic).

Would I be correct in assuming these main breakers are not RCDs and maybe incorrectly rates. If so would it just be a matter of buying units the same size and switching them. What should I ask fotr and how much are they likely to cost each

The electrician was supposedly highly qualified as I insisted with the builder I needed someone who knew what he was doing and knew the correct cable thickness's and breakers for the various loads they were to handle. Everything was to be grounded. He omitted doing this for the garden gate lamps and I was very angry because when i found out rectification was impracticable as the builder had already run me 450,000baht over budget.

I checked what I could (aided by Crossy and other here but am no electrician.

As other threads have show I have been fighting an uphill battle with our (family Builder who was not up to the standard he purported to be. I felt like I was fighting fires much of the time and although thanks to many on TV and my own investigations I caught many problems in their infancy but I could not catch them all (or recognize them all.) It seems a builder of 40 years does not necessarily mean much here when Western standards are being requested and I was assured the builder had built western standard houses before (badly I now must assume).

Thanks for you advice David and to others here.

Dave

[gdhm]

Well from "sublime to ridiculous"

Today 15:30 no aircons running volts are 235V. Any higher and it won't be low voltage grinding my equip into submission but them "popping their hoods"

Sure stable supply we have here.

Dave

[Crossy]

Well from "sublime to ridiculous"

Today 15:30 no aircons running volts are 235V. Any higher and it won't be low voltage grinding my equip into submission but them "popping their hoods"

Sure stable supply we have here.

Dave

Panic not, our supply is normally 241V (in the condo). No issues with reduced life of lamps (all CFs or electronic ballasts for the ring fluorescents) etc. AV and PCs are on UPSs with built-in AVRs so 220V all the time for them. I know it's counter-intuitive, but a slight over-voltage is much less harmful than a chronic under-voltage for most equipment.

The supply can only get lower as more homes are built so make hay whilst the power is good.

240V is only 9% high, perhaps some of our less fortunate members could use some of your spare volts

EDIT You do not appear to have any RCDs (unless you have a separate Safe-T-Cut unit), as others note it would be wise to add some sort of earth leakage protection, if your board is not full you could reasonably easily convert it to a split-service board, see here:- http://www.crossy.co.uk/wiring/Consumer.html