Thai Crisis Exposes Class Struggle

[Siripon]

Thai crisis exposes class struggle

Page last updated at 00:08 GMT, Saturday, 8 November 2008

By Jonathan Head - BBC News, Bangkok

For weeks the yellow-shirted protesters of the People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) have hogged the limelight in Thailand.

With the backing of powerful military and palace figures, they have helped unseat one prime minister and two members of his cabinet.

The embattled government, led by allies of controversial former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra, has in vain protested that it was popularly elected less than a year ago.

Now it has started fighting back with a series of mass rallies by its own red-shirted followers.

This is a dangerous contest between two power-hungry political factions who see it as a zero-sum game, in which they either win everything, or lose everything.

But it has become much more than that.

The rift has split Thai society, along regional and especially along class lines.

'Dress in red'

It is Monday morning, in a quiet backstreet in Udon Thani, provincial capital of a north-eastern province bordering Laos and a known Thaksin stronghold.

Radio DJ Kwanchai Sarakam is taking calls. He is a firebrand Thaksin loyalist who already faces criminal charges over his involvement in a clash with PAD supporters in July. But his callers are just as fired up.

"If the PAD cannot convince me their version of democracy will help grass-roots people like me, then I will fight them to my last breath"

Farmer Ankham Ratanasingha (left) (see full article)

The first is an old lady, with a warning for the military. "Listen to me, soldiers," she shouts down a crackly phone line, "if you dare try another coup, forget about getting roses, because I will dress myself entirely in red - red hair, red panties, red bra, red fingernails - and jump in front of your tanks. You will have to run over me, a grass-roots woman, and crush me to death."

Other calls follow in a similar, if less melodramatic, vein.

The show finishes with a rousing song, scorning "educated people" for their ignorance and lack of manners.

Kwanchai threatens to bring a red-shirted army to Bangkok to declare war on the PAD. He says there will have to be bloodshed before Thailand can get through this crisis. He almost seems to relish the prospect. But the sense of being engaged in a class war is commonplace on both sides of this struggle.

Rich-poor divide

"You see these people here - they are all educated people," one man told me at a PAD gathering in Bangkok. "But the ones who support the government party, they are all uneducated, especially from the north and north-east."

This is a typical comment from the PAD, implying that the millions of rural people who consistently vote for pro-Thaksin politicians are either bribed or do not understand what they are doing.

It is the justification the PAD gives for demanding a parliament which is part-appointed.

Such an attitude infuriates Ankham Ratanasingha, who runs a small farm with her husband just outside Udon Thani.

She had to leave school at 10 years old, but takes pride in having educated her two children to university level.

"If the PAD cannot convince me that their version of democracy will help grass-roots people like me, then I will fight them to my last breath," she said. "They should treat us with respect, not as people they can just squash under their feet."

"The problem of Thai political crisis is a class struggle", says Attajak Satayanutak, an academic from Thaksin's home town Chiang Mai.

"We have a wide gap between rich and poor. The poor did not receive anything from the state for a long time. Then, for the first time, Thaksin gave this opportunity for them."

The affection for Thaksin Shinawatra has held up remarkably well in the north-east, a poor and arid region known as Isaan.

Local people say his populist policies, like universal healthcare and the village loan scheme, brought big improvements to the quality of their lives.

But time and again they cite something else - dignity. They told me he offered them the hope of improving themselves, without making them feel small, or humble.

"If the military mounts another coup, this time the country will split, and there will be civil war"

Thaksin supporter (see full article)

His darker sides - abuses of power, human rights violations, arrogance - were brushed aside as less important.

Isaan has long been the butt of jokes in Thailand. It has a culture and language closer to that of neighbouring Laos than the central plains around Bangkok. It supplies much of the cheap, migrant labour to the capital.

But it has one valuable asset Thaksin Shinawatra identified as he began planning his bid for power in the late 1990s - voters, around one third of the total.

He was the first politician to court them directly, with appealing policies, rather than relying on the local godfathers to deliver their support.

In doing so, he has awoken a new political self-awareness in a previously passive region. And Isaan people are furious about the comments they are hearing from the PAD in Bangkok.

"Those who think Isaan people blindly follow Thaksin Shinawatra have an outdated image of our region," I was told by Puttakarn Panthong, a local politician who is not affiliated with Mr Thaksin's party. "They have better education now, and they understand who and what they are voting for."

Stuck in exile

So at the first of the big rallies in Bangkok, the former prime minister's phone-call, from somewhere overseas, was the most eagerly awaited moment of the night.

A huge roar went up from the 60,000 red-shirted faithful as his voice came over the speakers, asking: "Have you missed me?" There were more than a few tearful faces in the crowd.

But this was also a carefully-choreographed event, intended to send out a signal to the PAD and its royalist backers, that they face formidable opposition. The crowd was far larger than any the PAD has managed to attract this year.

Aside from Mr Thaksin, the highlight of the night was a song sung by Chaturon Chaiseng, one of the most respected politicians in the Thaksin camp.

He was also once a left-wing activist who took up arms against the military during the communist insurgency of the last 1970s.

And the song he chose was written by one of his comrades-in-arms, which tells of the sadness of a young rebel unable to return home.

The reference, or course, was to Mr Thaksin, stuck in exile, facing a two-year prison sentence if he comes back.

But it also connected his poor, rural followers today, with the class conflicts of Thailand's past.

Behind Mr Chaturon they held up the words "NO MORE COUP" in bold red letters. It seemed more of a warning than a plea.

One man turned to me and said: "If the military mounts another coup, this time the country will split, and there will be civil war."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7716033.stm

LaoPo

Chaturon a respected figure? By who? He's changed political parties and loyalties so many times. And what has he been doing to help the working class since the coup? Learning Chinese language and songs in China, very useful for his Chachoensao constituents. His wedding to a very rich woman of an industrialist cost millions.

The leaders of the PPP are not well meaning socialists- they are among the financially elite of Thailand.

Coming from Ban Pai, Khon Kaen I've noticed that nearly every educated Issan person detests Thaksin, it didn't take long for most to realise his pretentions to be one of the people was merely an act to gain votes and hence power.

I disagree that many of his acts benefitted the poor- few made any use of the village fund for anything profitable,partly because loans were so low, 10,000 or 15,000 baht . The free health care only covered basic illnesses, I know several people who have been sent home to die of liver cancer because the hospital can't afford treatment.

Issan is rural and their interests are not uniform, rice, rubber, cassava,sugarcane farmers all have different demands from the government. Millions of their children are working in factories in the Eastern Seaboard, Ayuttaya and abroad,they are scattered around, not an urban working class mass movement as happened in the West in the past. A lot of the lifestyle enjoyed by families in Issan, now with pickups and modcons in the home, come from remittances from those away from home, and now many in Issan have a lifestyle far superior to those in Bangkok with space and nature with modcons.

Thaksin showed the people, that if united, they had the power to form governments. Unfortunately his fatal flaws showed his total unsuitability to be a leader- observe how every decent Thai who supported Thaksin in the beginning has left him, now only opportunists and minions remain.

Issan people deserve decent leaders and for that they must look within, but so long as money dominates politics it will be hard for any moral person to ascend to the top in politics in Issan.

[bravingbangkok]

cclub75 I see what you are getting at, you think because we could be threatened with violence it is in fact our business to know and be involved with what is going on right ?

A: If so I just cannot imagine any violence being directed at farang if anything does go down so no need to be involved in something that ultimately will bring no threat to you.

I did say before I had my ticket booked but I can assure you I do not and nor will I be leaving, B: this like many others is now my home and it is my wife and daughters home so I do get where you are coming from. However I would advice you, myself and anyone else to keep opinions to this forum and farang circles only but I am sure I do not have to tell you or anyone else this

I never thought so before but Mr Head certainly knows what he is talking about all be it C: he is sometimes a little anxious to make a mountain out of a molehill !

A: When things go, shall we say, pear shaped in a country, history shows us that far worse things can happen than we would ever have imagined.

B: I wonder how many of you that insist on calling Thailand your 'home' have Thai citizenship or even permanent residence? I'd wager a minuscule %.

C: Making mountains out of molehills.... If you do not look forward, extrapolating the trend, but only looking at the present, maybe. Problem with that is events tend to knock you on the head, hard, as you are not aware of potential developments before the axe falls.

Ask many TV members who were saying the same thing when the markets 'lurched' , that first week, then were shouting buy! buy! the second week.

I've noticed a few posts lamenting substantial losses.

Seeing that you have a wife and daughter here, I'd say it is imperative that you keep on top of not only what is happening today, but where the trend may take us. Anything less is totally irresponsible for a family man.

You have completely misunderstood what I have said and as usual with so many TV members have jumped to conclusions in order to fulfill some dying need to educate people on this forum when no education is needed.

I am fully aware of the situation which is going on in this country, I can assure you I have a very good understanding of the situation here and have back channels open to me with good solid information. Thus I am fully prepared for any situation including one in which my families life is in danger in which I would probably take the option of leaving this country but I do not think it will come to that.

However I am trying to assure people that I highly doubt and so does basically every foreign office in the world that it will come to that.

I think there is a big difference between the economy and actual physical violense towards the expat community of a country, Do you not think ? so making any comparison is ludacris.

Yes this is my home and yes I will actually will be a perm resid by April, Had my Non Immi for 5 years now. My wife is Thai, my daughter is half Thai and speaks Thai, my future children will be Thai, my family has a history of business in and with Thais and I have a business in Thailand. Would you consider this enough for me to think Thailand was my home ?

Please I would love to hear all thoughts and prophecies you have regarding my thainess.

Edited November 13, 2008 by bravingbangkok

[bravingbangkok]

LaoPo

Chaturon a respected figure? By who? He's changed political parties and loyalties so many times. And what has he been doing to help the working class since the coup? Learning Chinese language and songs in China, very useful for his Chachoensao constituents. His wedding to a very rich woman of an industrialist cost millions.

The leaders of the PPP are not well meaning socialists- they are among the financially elite of Thailand.

Coming from Ban Pai, Khon Kaen I've noticed that nearly every educated Issan person detests Thaksin, it didn't take long for most to realise his pretentions to be one of the people was merely an act to gain votes and hence power.

I disagree that many of his acts benefitted the poor- few made any use of the village fund for anything profitable,partly because loans were so low, 10,000 or 15,000 baht . The free health care only covered basic illnesses, I know several people who have been sent home to die of liver cancer because the hospital can't afford treatment.

Issan is rural and their interests are not uniform, rice, rubber, cassava,sugarcane farmers all have different demands from the government. Millions of their children are working in factories in the Eastern Seaboard, Ayuttaya and abroad,they are scattered around, not an urban working class mass movement as happened in the West in the past. A lot of the lifestyle enjoyed by families in Issan, now with pickups and modcons in the home, come from remittances from those away from home, and now many in Issan have a lifestyle far superior to those in Bangkok with space and nature with modcons.

Thaksin showed the people, that if united, they had the power to form governments. Unfortunately his fatal flaws showed his total unsuitability to be a leader- observe how every decent Thai who supported Thaksin in the beginning has left him, now only opportunists and minions remain.

Issan people deserve decent leaders and for that they must look within, but so long as money dominates politics it will be hard for any moral person to ascend to the top in politics in Issan.

Well said !

[bravingbangkok]

"C: Making mountains out of molehills.... If you do not look forward, extrapolating the trend, but only looking at the present, maybe. Problem with that is events tend to knock you on the head, hard, as you are not aware of potential developments before the axe falls."

Oh yes and there have been so many civil wars in Thailand havent there ? there was only really the communist issue and that is it ! Pleaseee.... anyone who thinks there is going to be a full scale civil war with war crimes against one and all is deranged and obviously has no clue about Thailand, it's history and it's people let alone it's future !

Edited November 13, 2008 by bravingbangkok

[MikeSR]

too many vast generalizations and illogical arguments by people just throwing words around to sound smart

i believe there to be very few farang who give an accurate analysis of the social dynamics of this political crisis

this thread is one small step above drunken barstool gossip

[citizen33]

Siripon wrote

"The free health care only covered basic illnesses, I know several people who have been sent home to die of liver cancer because the hospital can't afford treatment".

The first part of that statement is untrue. If you don't believe me, visit the National Health Security Office website and see how they spend their money. The UC health care scheme is far from perfect and unfortunately there are cases where local doctors in community hospitals do not make referrals when they should (I've seen liver cancer go untreated myself). The fact remains, however, that the Government is spending a lot of money on complex treatments, including treatments in big tertiary care centres under the free scheme. Actually the core package, in theory at least, is now very comprehensive. ARV for HIV/AIDS was included in 2006, renal transplants in 2008 and the influenza vaccine in 2008. The general credibility of Siripon's post is undermined by his obvious ignorance of a scheme he has apparently been living right on top of for years.

Edited November 13, 2008 by citizen33

[bravingbangkok]

too many vast generalizations and illogical arguments by people just throwing words around to sound smart

i believe there to be very few farang who give an accurate analysis of the social dynamics of this political crisis

this thread is one small step above drunken barstool gossip

Please go on..............

[JimsKnight]

If you are invested here as many of us are, (many ways: years living here, money, businesses, investments, housing, relationships, families, etc.) then of course if things turn bad, we have a plenty to lose, perhaps usually not as much as Thais, but plenty. If you are renting a serviced apartment month to month, have no illiquid assets here, have no significant ties to Thais, then it would simply be a matter of a jaunt to the airport. Yes, I think many of us have very rational reasons to care.

If it really kicks off I'll be staying right in Thailand along with quite a few others

Jump on the bike and head to the south to wait out the storm so-to-speak

[jcon]

However, they need more contact with the Isaan graphic artists, exporters, Honda quality control managers, Bangkok Post writers, IT experts, and medical personnel who now staff prestigious Bangkok institutions and organizations.

And I suspect these people have far more creativity and strength than their BKK cousins -- all generalizations are unfair, but that is a satisying one.

Pray tell, why would that be? And awesome job on the "all genrealizations are unfair, but I'm going to generalize" bit. Classic TV.

I overheard a hi-so Thai take a phone call from a "Khun Lao". She was so evidently distressed that the others in the room collapsed in laughter. Khun Lao ! Khun Lao ! How hilarious it was . Eventually, one of the darker members of staff was called in to deal with this ... she handled it well, but it must have rankled.

Khun Lao????

:D

That is hilarious.... not just for the "hi-so" lady you claim to have taken the call, but probably for even the "darkest" of members of staff.... Khun Lao.... instant classic.

[MKAsok]

Quite an improvement in your English skills from this:

my english is not to good. i dont understand your post.

and yes, i made the waiter take what was left of each dish, even the ones with less than 25% left and had him "sigh tung krap". she look me like i am worthless but i am the one who is prideful.

i hope you have better experience with lady hiso but i am happy to find a poor isaan girl. thank you for listen to my story.

to this:

too many vast generalizations and illogical arguments by people just throwing words around to sound smart

i believe there to be very few farang who give an accurate analysis of the social dynamics of this political crisis

this thread is one small step above drunken barstool gossip

Some might say an unbelievable improvement...

[bravingbangkok]

Quite an improvement in your English skills from this:

my english is not to good. i dont understand your post.

and yes, i made the waiter take what was left of each dish, even the ones with less than 25% left and had him "sigh tung krap". she look me like i am worthless but i am the one who is prideful.

i hope you have better experience with lady hiso but i am happy to find a poor isaan girl. thank you for listen to my story.

to this:

too many vast generalizations and illogical arguments by people just throwing words around to sound smart

i believe there to be very few farang who give an accurate analysis of the social dynamics of this political crisis

this thread is one small step above drunken barstool gossip

Some might say an unbelievable improvement...

I think he has just learned how to use copy and paste

[LaoPo]

We -as Farang- however do not have the right (as if we would be able to in the first place...) to the intervene in Thai politics and/or the Thai classes struggle (where this OP is all about).

Yes, we do not want to violate the prime directive, we are only here to observe...

I agree that there is little chance that any farang(s) could effectively intervene in Thai politics, nor do I personally have any desire what so ever to do so.

But... I think that any Farang that makes his home here in Thailand has the right to try if he likes.

I believe the same of any of the Mexicans or any other immigrants that are living in the US, they have the right to try and influence the political discussion there. I would never make the comment to any of them, "This is the US if you don't like it too bad, go back to Mexico!!!" and I would also never make a similar comment to any of the foreigners living in Thailand who would like to get involved in the polical discussion.

Interesting views and opinion.

But I think that -legal- Mexicans, working and living in the US have a different status than expats, living in Thailand.

Most Farang are not allowed to work and it's also quite difficult to become a Thai rather than American.....right or wrong ?

LaoPo

True that immigrants in the US may enjoy a different legal status than most foreigner's who call Thailand their home.

But let me ask you a question.... should someone's right to try and influence his community's policies and enter into the political discussion be based solely upon the immigration regulations of his host country?

Voting rights can be based upon these things, but is it fair to say, "You are not allowed to have an oipinion or enter the political discussion unless the the Thai government changes their immigration policies?"

I would venture to say that most Farangs are here legally on one type of visa or another. Most are not breaking the law. Many have made their homes here and what happens in Thailand can and will effect their lives and the lives of their families. Have they no right to an opinion? Have they no right to try and make their opinions known if they choose?

I would say yes, they have every right to do so if they choose, but I am sure that just like in most other countries politicians are not teribly concerned with any segmant of the population that can not or does not vote.

In bold:

That's not up to me to answer that question. It's up to the laws of the country but if you would ask me (as you did) I would say YES, it's based upon the immigrations laws to have the right to try and/or influence politics in the country he/she is guest in, or not.

But, it seems you do not agree. So, let me ask you a question: do illegals from South America to the US or Africa to Europe have the rights to try and influence the politics in the US or European countries they entered illegally ?

So: yes, the rights are based upon the immigration laws; if they are legal and fully integrated and read write and speak the language and are naturalized than they have all the rights in the world to try and influence local politics.

But, normally, foreigners -just- living in another country (like Farang in Thailand) do not have voting rights. Discussing politics or having an opinion is nothing wrong with of course.

Example: there are 2 million foreign house owners in Spain, together having families of maybe -at least- 4-7 million people.

Do they have the right to influence local politics ?

NO, they simply have to adapt to the laws of that country and -in my own opinion- they have NO rights to try and influence local politics because they are guests in that country, nothing more, nothing less.

So, why would Farang have the right to try to change and influence the politics in Thailand ?

I bet you would like to have that right, but you don't.

LaoPo

[CWMcMurray]

That's not up to me to answer that question. It's up to the laws of the country but if you would ask me (as you did) I would say YES, it's based upon the immigrations laws to have the right to try and/or influence politics in the country he/she is guest in, or not.

But, it seems you do not agree. So, let me ask you a question: do illegals from South America to the US or Africa to Europe have the rights to try and influence the politics in the US or European countries they entered illegally ?

So: yes, the rights are based upon the immigration laws; if they are legal and fully integrated and read write and speak the language and are naturalized than they have all the rights in the world to try and influence local politics.

But, normally, foreigners -just- living in another country (like Farang in Thailand) do not have voting rights. Discussing politics or having an opinion is nothing wrong with of course.

Example: there are 2 million foreign house owners in Spain, together having families of maybe -at least- 4-7 million people.

Do they have the right to influence local politics ?

NO, they simply have to adapt to the laws of that country and -in my own opinion- they have NO rights to try and influence local politics because they are guests in that country, nothing more, nothing less.

So, why would Farang have the right to try to change and influence the politics in Thailand ?

I bet you would like to have that right, but you don't.

LaoPo

I deleted the previous posts to keep the post a bit shorter...

I disagree (I am guessing this doesn't surprise you). I think that the laws of a country can determine the right to vote, but not the right to participate which are two very different things. Participation only requires freedom of speech.

As to your question about do illegal immigrants have a right to influence the politics in other countries.... that is not a valid comparison given that I am talking about people with legal visas who are not breaking the law. Some of which may have been living in Thailand longer than they lived in their "home" country, but given the present immigration laws may not qualify for PR. (Do you think PR should allow you the right to participate, or only citizenship?)

But I will bite anyway... yes even illegals have a right to enter into the public forum, but as they are breaking the law they may subject themselves to arrest and deportation if they do so.

As for the Spanish example, I say yes... they absolutely have a right to try and influence the local policies of the country they own property and live in. Why shouldn't they have a right to do so?

I think that our fundamental disagreement is that I believe that if you live some where long enough that place becomes your home and you have not only the right, but in some cases the obligation to make your community a better place if you can.

On a less altruistic point... you also have a right to protect yourself and your family and your economic interests (even if you do not have citizenship in the country you are living in).

My life is generally happy and to be honest I don't have any desire to involve myself in Thai politics. That being said, I still believe I have the right to if I wanted to (I just might not be able to vote).

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's say a Thai student went to study in the US and has been there for his undergraduate degree, masters degree and he is now pursuing his PHD. For what ever reason he has never tried to get US citizenship and is still on a student visa. So now he has been living in the US for around 7 years and he has married a US citizen and they have a 2 year old daughter.

In the past election in the US he liked Obama and he decided that they would like to volunteer on his campaign with the rest of his friends. He believed that Obama would make the US and the world a better place and provide a better future for his daughter. Let's say he also has some money in the stock market and owns a home in his wife's name and believes that if Obama is elected the economy will be better off. He is also having a hard time making his mortgage payments and he believes that Obama is more likely to come up with plan that will not only help Banks but also home owners that are in danger of having their homes reposessed.

Is this wrong? He only has a student visa, he is not a US citizen, he can not vote. By your argument he is only a guest and should not be allowed to work on his campaign or support Obama in any way shape or form. What if he just wanted to put a campaign sign in his front lawn or put a Obama for president bumper sticker on his car.

Edited November 13, 2008 by CWMcMurray

[CuttySark]

There is only 2 classes in Thailand. PAD class & OUT class.

[LaoPo]

CWMcMurray:

Thank you for your lengthy post. I am sorry but I will not follow up since we are drifting too far away from the OP thread which is called Thai Crisis Exposes Class Struggle.

It's about Class Struggles between local Thai groups. It's not about the right or not for foreigners to intervene in Thai politics.

LaoPo

[Siripon]

Siripon wrote

"The free health care only covered basic illnesses, I know several people who have been sent home to die of liver cancer because the hospital can't afford treatment".

The first part of that statement is untrue. If you don't believe me, visit the National Health Security Office website and see how they spend their money. The UC health care scheme is far from perfect and unfortunately there are cases where local doctors in community hospitals do not make referrals when they should (I've seen liver cancer go untreated myself). The fact remains, however, that the Government is spending a lot of money on complex treatments, including treatments in big tertiary care centres under the free scheme. Actually the core package, in theory at least, is now very comprehensive. ARV for HIV/AIDS was included in 2006, renal transplants in 2008 and the influenza vaccine in 2008. The general credibility of Siripon's post is undermined by his obvious ignorance of a scheme he has apparently been living right on top of for years.

Please try to get my gender right!

I don't know about the statistics but I'm telling you that I personally know of many cases where patients have been told there is nothing more the state hospitals can do for them, hardly surprising when the budget per head is so low.

And accidents are not covered at all, upcountry, motorbike are the most common form of transport, a brother-in law of mine was knocked down by a speeding pick-up which didn't stop- the result was he had to pay 40,000 baht for the treatment himself.

[CWMcMurray]

CWMcMurray:

Thank you for your lengthy post. I am sorry but I will not follow up since we are drifting too far away from the OP thread which is called Thai Crisis Exposes Class Struggle.

It's about Class Struggles between local Thai groups. It's not about the right or not for foreigners to intervene in Thai politics.

LaoPo

You are correct and I apologize for getting side tracked and straying off topic.

Thank you for the lively discussion.

[citizen33]

Siripon wrote

"Please try to get my gender right!

I don't know about the statistics but I'm telling you that I personally know of many cases where patients have been told there is nothing more the state hospitals can do for them, hardly surprising when the budget per head is so low.

And accidents are not covered at all, upcountry, motorbike are the most common form of transport, a brother-in law of mine was knocked down by a speeding pick-up which didn't stop- the result was he had to pay 40,000 baht for the treatment himself."

I got your gender wrong, madam, but sadly you are giving people misleading information about something rather more important. If there are deficiencies of the kind that you report, it is because local doctors are not following the rules. Accident and emergency services are indeed covered by the UC scheme and, unlike other care, do not require a referral from the patient's local primary care network. Anecdotes of the kind that you are peddling are all very well but are no substitute for taking the trouble to do a bit of basic research. Take a look here:

www.hsri.or.th/en/download/read_file.php?file_id=18&path=18-5279.pdf&key=puben

Edited November 14, 2008 by citizen33

[Plus]

If the hospital tells you there's nothing they can do and you should go home - that's the reality, not .pdf documents about how everything is in perfect order.

If the hospital is broke and has no money to pay for your treatment - that's the reality, no matter what is says in promotional booklets.

[Siripon]

Siripon wrote

"Please try to get my gender right!

I don't know about the statistics but I'm telling you that I personally know of many cases where patients have been told there is nothing more the state hospitals can do for them, hardly surprising when the budget per head is so low.

And accidents are not covered at all, upcountry, motorbike are the most common form of transport, a brother-in law of mine was knocked down by a speeding pick-up which didn't stop- the result was he had to pay 40,000 baht for the treatment himself."

I got your gender wrong, madam, but sadly you are giving people misleading information about something rather more important. If there are deficiencies of the kind that you report, it is because local doctors are not following the rules. Accident and emergency services are indeed covered by the UC scheme and, unlike other care, do not require a referral from the patient's local primary care network. Anecdotes of the kind that you are peddling are all very well but are no substitute for taking the trouble to do a bit of basic research. Take a look here:

www.hsri.or.th/en/download/read_file.php?file_id=18&path=18-5279.pdf&key=puben

I suggest you take the trouble to do a tour of provincial hospitals and find how many actually get free treatment.

[citizen33]

If the hospital tells you there's nothing they can do and you should go home - that's the reality, not .pdf documents about how everything is in perfect order.

If the hospital is broke and has no money to pay for your treatment - that's the reality, no matter what is says in promotional booklets.

I very much doubt whether you have done the hard work required to find out what the reality is, as you have shown with your lack of basic knowledge on previous posts. Actually I did not gain my knowledge of the UC health care scheme via written sources alone. Moreover a research report such as the one in the link is not a promotional booklet, but then I do not get the impression that you do much serious reading. I would say that registered card holders who find that a hospital will not treat them should do the following (of course, you will probably have to pay in the meantime). First go and complain at the appropriate regional office of the NHSO, which for Baan Phai is in Khon Kaen. If that does not elicit a speedy result, complain in writing direct to the NHSO in Bangkok. The hospital is contracted to the NHSO to deliver services according to the agreed terms and the NHSO will take an interest if it does not do that. I accept that there are shortcomings in the UC scheme. However, it is one thing to say that, and quite another to make patently false statements such as that (a) only non-serious conditions are covered (b ) accidents are not covered and (c ) (I think in Plus's case some time ago) hospitals only receive 30 baht per case. Just to check whether you are on the same planet, how much per year per member do you think a hospital receives for taking part in the UC scheme?

Edited November 14, 2008 by citizen33

[citizen33]

I suggest you take the trouble to do a tour of provincial hospitals and find how many actually get free treatment.

Would it surprise you to learn that I have visited and completed interviews with senior staff in all of the public hospitals in three of the central Isaan provinces? All the public hospitals and some of the private hospitals in these provinces receive funding under the UC scheme and are therefore mandated to give free treatments. If they did not give free treatments they would be in trouble because that is a condition of the funding. However, to gain some basic general knowledge it wouldn't be necessary for you to do that. You just need to get your brain into gear, look at the UC budget, look at the budget headings for last year's spend, and realise that your statements about non-coverage of serious conditions/accidents cannot possibly be true. I get the feeling that you do not stray far from Ban Phai.

Edited November 14, 2008 by citizen33

[tmd5855]

"We have a wide gap between rich and poor. The poor did not receive anything from the state for a long time. Then, for the first time, Thaksin gave this opportunity for them."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7716033.stm

Do some people understand now why so many Thais love Khun Thaksin?

Of course, I see many Farangs on this site are critics of Thaksin, yet IF the Thaksin Government had passed legislation that allowed Farangs to own land 100% in their names, made Visas and permanent rersidency a much easier process etc etc...

I wonder how many Farangs would support him, and if they had lost those privilages with a new government, I wonder how many would be wanting him back ?

A lot of ex-pats attempt (poorly in my opinion) to take the so called moral high ground, by looking down on those that Thaskin "supposedley bought".

They would soon climb down and join the Thaskin supporters if offered (bribed) by the above

[Siripon]

I suggest you take the trouble to do a tour of provincial hospitals and find how many actually get free treatment.

Would it surprise you to learn that I have visited and completed interviews with senior staff in all of the public hospitals in three of the central Isaan provinces? All the public hospitals and some of the private hospitals in these provinces receive funding under the UC scheme and are therefore mandated to give free treatments. If they did not give free treatments they would be in trouble because that is a condition of the funding. However, to gain some basic general knowledge it wouldn't be necessary for you to do that. You just need to get your brain into gear, look at the UC budget, look at the budget headings for last year's spend, and realise that your statements about non-coverage of serious conditions/accidents cannot possibly be true. I get the feeling that you do not stray far from Ban Phai.

Did you interview the patients?

Just walk round to the payments counter and ask to see the receipts of those paying.

[Plus]

I see.

Personal interviews with senior staff is the best way to judge if people get their treatments or not.

In what capacity did you interview them, Citizen? Actually - who are you? I don't mean to sound rude, but what is your business in all this?

They won't just open their books for everyone.

[rixalex]

A lot of ex-pats attempt (poorly in my opinion) to take the so called moral high ground, by looking down on those that Thaskin "supposedley bought".

They would soon climb down and join the Thaskin supporters if offered (bribed) by the above

You should stick to speaking for yourself.

If you are saying that you would happily accept a bribe then fair enough - that's your decision - but don't make assumptions about others whom you obviously know little about.

[Scott]

I think everyone needs to be aware that the current crisis in Thailand is difficult. It might also be wise to remember that it is the sheep who are led to slaughter, not the shepherds.

[Koo82]

If the hospital tells you there's nothing they can do and you should go home - that's the reality, not .pdf documents about how everything is in perfect order.

If the hospital is broke and has no money to pay for your treatment - that's the reality, no matter what is says in promotional booklets.

I very much doubt whether you have done the hard work required to find out what the reality is, as you have shown with your lack of basic knowledge on previous posts. Actually I did not gain my knowledge of the UC health care scheme via written sources alone. Moreover a research report such as the one in the link is not a promotional booklet, but then I do not get the impression that you do much serious reading. I would say that registered card holders who find that a hospital will not treat them should do the following (of course, you will probably have to pay in the meantime). First go and complain at the appropriate regional office of the NHSO, which for Baan Phai is in Khon Kaen. If that does not elicit a speedy result, complain in writing direct to the NHSO in Bangkok. The hospital is contracted to the NHSO to deliver services according to the agreed terms and the NHSO will take an interest if it does not do that. I accept that there are shortcomings in the UC scheme. However, it is one thing to say that, and quite another to make patently false statements such as that (a) only non-serious conditions are covered (b ) accidents are not covered and (c ) (I think in Plus's case some time ago) hospitals only receive 30 baht per case. Just to check whether you are on the same planet, how much per year per member do you think a hospital receives for taking part in the UC scheme?

Whether the scheme is done properly is another story. The main point is TRT cares for the majority of people and other parties do not.

This explains why they will continue to win every election. There are a few methods to bring them down is to support the People Against Democracy (PAD), to dig any fault they made and bring to court, to find ways to ban their politic rights as many members as possible, to rehearse some lies in forums, to create incidents and force current PM to resign, to make the country woon wai (messy) so the coup will happen, etc.

All sensible methods!

[sabaijai]

Now this all sounds a bit serious...to add a bit of levity may I suggest we dub the red-shirted ones the

"Issan Rouge" and that they select a leader called "Pol Wok" or "Peter Pan"

There is already a band called "the Clash" in Thailand so all the elements for Maoist class struggle are in place

[citizen33]

Whether the scheme is done properly is another story.

That is a fair point. There is an implementation gap: for example, where district hospitals have been reluctant to make referrals to provincial hospitals or where money allocated by central government has not appeared in full. There is anecdotal evidence that some doctors have tried to force patients to go private rather than being treated under the UC scheme. At the same time, a lot of very committed people are working to make the scheme better. I'd say it is perfectly legitimate to argue about the shortcomings, but that is not the same as false statements to the effect that only minor conditions are covered or accidents are excluded. Khun Sirapon doesn't seem to want to face up to the fact that what she said was a simple untruth. Yes, I have interviewed hospital staff but not patients. However, if I had done this, what other evidence would she demand? In fact several researchers in HSRI and the IHPP have done patient surveys, which you could find via the websites of those organisations. There are also utilisation studies, showing the uptake of treatments by different sections of the population. I am afraid that it is a case of closed minds driven by political prejudice, and no dis-confirming evidence would be accepted as valid. Actually, it was the senior intellectuals in the Ministry of Public Health who were responsible for the design of the UC scheme rather than the TRT. But at a time when other parties said universal coverage was unaffordable, TRT took the gamble of initiating a big-bang reform. Of course, in more recent general elections the Democrats were also supporting the scheme, and indeed in 2005-06 were pledging to abolish the co-payment. However, as we see in the comments of many TV posters sympathetic to the Democrats/PAD, the commitment to public health care may be skin deep. I would expect that in the event of a Democrat victory we would see the UC scheme quietly downgraded to become safety net provision for poor people, with the argument being made that that was all it has ever been. As to Plus's question, I prefer to follow the usual convention of TV and retain my anonymity. Let me just say that my involvement is via work not as a hobby. I don't say I have all the answers but I do like to see statements backed up by evidence.

Edited November 15, 2008 by citizen33