Thai Crisis Exposes Class Struggle

[toptuan]

As for China, I think they are dealing with transition very well, on the whole.

Helps to have a reasonably well-organized totalitarian government which can and does use its clout frequently to engineer social change and check its direction (one-child policy, heavy media censorship, continual pressure on religious groups, Tibet, etc.)

Thailand's past coups and current limitations of freedom are of the same ilk, but decidedly less ubiquitous and less sophisticated in their effectiveness.

Idea: Import Chinese know-how? That's what Africa's doing (economically)!

Edited November 12, 2008 by toptuan

[bkkjames]

Is this the University Class thread? oh sorry, too many deep thinkers here, time to leave.

[sylviex]

How has the election of Obama been greeted by your students ?

The social parallels and its implications are not lost on them.

First reaction: shock

Second reaction: thoughtful

Third reaction: hopeful

!

I don't think the implications for kids here can be underestimated. All day the TV sez white is good ... but there's also the ingrained idea that Merka is the greatest ... so ... it must be rather wonderful for some of the less pallid .

I think young people everywhere challenge what they are taught - even in Thailand. I think a lot is going on that can't be discussed, but which is very obvious ...

[toptuan]

Is this the University Class thread? oh sorry, too many deep thinkers here, time to leave.

Oh, sorry to stretch your envelope there, BKKJames! (Back to the "Are All The Bars Closed Today?" thread.)

Edited November 12, 2008 by toptuan

[toptuan]

I think young people everywhere challenge what they are taught - even in Thailand. I think a lot is going on that can't be discussed, but which is very obvious ...

[bravingbangkok]

I do not think the majority of the Bangkok Hi-so are actually rude or disrespectful to the North or North Eastern population but there definitely is a minority who like the power and wealth they have and are not too keen on the thought of the future being shared !

The people will always prevail and I think they know that the elite era is coming to an end, not now not soon but definitely sometime in the near future.

[toptuan]

The people will always prevail and I think they know that the elite era is coming to an end, not now not soon but definitely sometime in the near future.

Prophetic words, I believe. But about the "near future" part: I just hope it doesn't take as long as North Korea, Tibet or Burma is taking....

Edited November 12, 2008 by toptuan

[cclub75]

I still don't understand what farangs have to do in this Thai struggle.

Fundamentally... nothing. Excepted that we would like to save our asses, if possible and if necessary...

Information is power.

To try (yes just try) to understand what's really going on in Thailand, what are the stakes, the forces, how the situation could evolve on mid and long term... that's of a great interest.

The article of J. Head is really good. It changes from the usual "zen we love each other" bullshit.

If one man does not make a consensus, however it shows that the other consensus ("all the thais love each other") was nothing but a fiction.

The country is deeply divided... Politically and socially (we could add : by education, income, and even geographically). There is no point to try to deny it.

[toptuan]

I still don't understand what farangs have to do in this Thai struggle.

Fundamentally... nothing. Excepted that we would like to save our asses, if possible and if necessary...

What a totally egocentric statement.

Some of us have NOT booked our open-end air ticket for an emergency exit. Some expats, such as spouses of Thai partners, parents of luet-Kreung Thai-citizen kids, and serious educators of Thai kids do have a just a smidgeon of other-centric motivations.

Might be a real shock to you, sorry.

Edited November 12, 2008 by toptuan

[toptuan]

... it shows that the other consensus ("all the thais love each other") was nothing but a fiction.

The country is deeply divided... Politically and socially (we could add : by education, income, and even geographically). There is no point to try to deny it.

Ah, just waking up to the fact that you're living in a "form-without-substance" culture? I know, it was eventually a shock to all of us... (..after the first western-resort vacation in Samui, after that first b/g experience where we turned out to be only their ATM, after that first job interview where no one really wanted to look at our certificates or degrees, etc., etc., etc.) Rude awakening, mate!

Edited November 12, 2008 by toptuan

[cclub75]

What a totally egocentric statement.

Some of us have NOT booked our ticket for an emergency exit. Some of us, such as spouses of Thai partners, parents of luet-Kreung Thai-citizen kids, and educators of Thai kids do have a just a smidgeon of other-centric motivations.

This is exactly what I was talking about : we have to be concerned. "save our asses" didn't mean an airplane ticket....

I was trying to rebuke the statement that "it's not farang business"... used so many times by so many people in Thailand.

So yes it is our business (at least for some of us) and for that matter it's important as I said to try to understand the situation.

We just can't stay on the side, and close our eyes.

So again, I praise J.JHead article.

Edited November 12, 2008 by cclub75

[toptuan]

What a totally egocentric statement.

Some of us have NOT booked our ticket for an emergency exit. Some of us, such as spouses of Thai partners, parents of luet-Kreung Thai-citizen kids, and educators of Thai kids do have a just a smidgeon of other-centric motivations.

This is exactly what I was talking about : we have to be concerned. "save our asses" didn't mean an airplane ticket....

I was trying to rebuke the statement that "it's not farang business"... used so many times by so many people in Thailand.

So yes it is our business (at least for some of us) and for that matter it's important as I said to try to understand the situation.

We just can't stay on the side, and close our eyes.

So again, I praise J.JHead article.

Ah! (light bulb over head turns on).

[BSJ]

Is this NOT similar to what happened in Western Europe a few hundred years ago? Maybe the people of Issan are busy building guillotines as we speak!

[citizen33]

Interesting thread. It is a good counterpoint to a strand of opinion that we have seen on the Isaan forum and elsewhere whereby some expat residents of the NE express cynical views about local democracy and the political consciousness of ordinary Isaan people. My own theory is that this is partly because they are out of touch with the upwardly-mobile groups Toptuan has described, as well as with local political activists. Having said that, I sometimes find it very hard to work out what people in professional circles in Isaan are thinking: many of them seem to want to play their cards close to the chest.

Edited November 12, 2008 by citizen33

[toptuan]

Is this NOT similar to what happened in Western Europe a few hundred years ago? Maybe the people of Issan are busy building guillotines as we speak!

You should see some of our course descriptions in the Faculty of Technology! (TSD101--Thumb-Screw Design, etc.)

MUAHAHAHAHA.....

Having said that, I sometimes find it very hard to work out what people in professional circles in Isaan are thinking: many of them seem to want to play their cards close to the chest.

Seriously, I'm also coming across more and more Isaan professionals who claim they are neutral about "all the PAD/PPP crap going on in BKK." Can hardly get another word out of them, other than a vague plea for unity and peace.

Maybe they're the Asian version of Madame DuFarge's sleeper cells?

Edited November 12, 2008 by toptuan

[LaoPo]

I still don't understand what farangs have to do in this Thai struggle.

Fundamentally... nothing.

To try (yes just try) to understand what's really going on in Thailand, what are the stakes, the forces, how the situation could evolve on mid and long term... that's of a great interest.

I read the comment by Koo82 earlier and basically agree with her as well as cclub75's answer although it is a fundamental right in a(ny) democracy to have an opinion.

We -as Farang- however do not have the right (as if we would be able to in the first place...) to the intervene in Thai politics and/or the Thai classes struggle (where this OP is all about).

As Cclub75 mentioned, we just try to understand what's happening behind the velvet curtains in Thailand but fail for a large part due to that fact that 99% of us do not have any close contacts within the upper circles of Thailand.

Our opinions are mainly based upon information handed to us by means of the media.

And, the higher the steps on the ladder, the more difficult it is to understand the clashes and struggles between the upper classes and what they're are all about....and....reaching for the last step on the ladder, the doors are closed to 99.5 % of the Thai population and 100% to -foreign- outsiders.

<edit>

LaoPo

Edited November 13, 2008 by soundman
Removed oblique referance to Royal family.

[ratcatcher]

Is this NOT similar to what happened in Western Europe a few hundred years ago? Maybe the people of Issan are busy building guillotines as we speak!

The French Revolution (c. 1789–1799) was a period of political and social upheaval in the history of France, during which the French governmental structure, previously an absolute monarchy with feudal privileges for the aristocracy and Catholic clergy, underwent radical change to forms based on Enlightenment principles of nationalism, citizenship, and inalienable rights.

Result, among other things, Louis 16th executed along with his queen.

It isn't going to happen here. Is it?

[bravingbangkok]

cclub75 I see what you are getting at, you think because we could be threatened with violence it is in fact our business to know and be involved with what is going on right ?

If so I just cannot imagine any violence being directed at farang if anything does go down so no need to be involved in something that ultimately will bring no threat to you.

I did say before I had my ticket booked but I can assure you I do not and nor will I be leaving, this like many others is now my home and it is my wife and daughters home so I do get where you are coming from. However I would advice you, myself and anyone else to keep opinions to this forum and farang circles only but I am sure I do not have to tell you or anyone else this

I never thought so before but Mr Head certainly knows what he is talking about all be it he is sometimes a little anxious to make a mountain out of a molehill !

Edited November 12, 2008 by bravingbangkok

[Koo82]

The PAD are a bunch of idiots and Thaksin has been quite a cruel leader so where can one stand if one is not ingrained into this country and it's history. I think farang should just stay well away from this situation and I highly doubt that any crimes would be commited against farang if it did indeed all go down.

Sorry I forgot to quote the above post before I posted "I still don't understand what farangs have to do in this Thai struggle."

Does bravingbangkok mean there will be no danger towards farangs if things turn bad?

[CWMcMurray]

We -as Farang- however do not have the right (as if we would be able to in the first place...) to the intervene in Thai politics and/or the Thai classes struggle (where this OP is all about).

Yes, we do not want to violate the prime directive, we are only here to observe...

I agree that there is little chance that any farang(s) could effectively intervene in Thai politics, nor do I personally have any desire what so ever to do so.

But... I think that any Farang that makes his home here in Thailand has the right to try if he likes.

I believe the same of any of the Mexicans or any other immigrants that are living in the US, they have the right to try and influence the political discussion there. I would never make the comment to any of them, "This is the US if you don't like it too bad, go back to Mexico!!!" and I would also never make a similar comment to any of the foreigners living in Thailand who would like to get involved in the polical discussion.

[LaoPo]

We -as Farang- however do not have the right (as if we would be able to in the first place...) to the intervene in Thai politics and/or the Thai classes struggle (where this OP is all about).

Yes, we do not want to violate the prime directive, we are only here to observe...

I agree that there is little chance that any farang(s) could effectively intervene in Thai politics, nor do I personally have any desire what so ever to do so.

But... I think that any Farang that makes his home here in Thailand has the right to try if he likes.

I believe the same of any of the Mexicans or any other immigrants that are living in the US, they have the right to try and influence the political discussion there. I would never make the comment to any of them, "This is the US if you don't like it too bad, go back to Mexico!!!" and I would also never make a similar comment to any of the foreigners living in Thailand who would like to get involved in the polical discussion.

Interesting views and opinion.

But I think that -legal- Mexicans, working and living in the US have a different status than expats, living in Thailand.

Most Farang are not allowed to work and it's also quite difficult to become a Thai rather than American.....right or wrong ?

LaoPo

[bravingbangkok]

The PAD are a bunch of idiots and Thaksin has been quite a cruel leader so where can one stand if one is not ingrained into this country and it's history. I think farang should just stay well away from this situation and I highly doubt that any crimes would be commited against farang if it did indeed all go down.

Sorry I forgot to quote the above post before I posted "I still don't understand what farangs have to do in this Thai struggle."

Does bravingbangkok mean there will be no danger towards farangs if things turn bad?

I do indeed.

[OlRedEyes]

cclub75 I see what you are getting at, you think because we could be threatened with violence it is in fact our business to know and be involved with what is going on right ?

A: If so I just cannot imagine any violence being directed at farang if anything does go down so no need to be involved in something that ultimately will bring no threat to you.

I did say before I had my ticket booked but I can assure you I do not and nor will I be leaving, B: this like many others is now my home and it is my wife and daughters home so I do get where you are coming from. However I would advice you, myself and anyone else to keep opinions to this forum and farang circles only but I am sure I do not have to tell you or anyone else this

I never thought so before but Mr Head certainly knows what he is talking about all be it C: he is sometimes a little anxious to make a mountain out of a molehill !

A: When things go, shall we say, pear shaped in a country, history shows us that far worse things can happen than we would ever have imagined.

B: I wonder how many of you that insist on calling Thailand your 'home' have Thai citizenship or even permanent residence? I'd wager a minuscule %.

C: Making mountains out of molehills.... If you do not look forward, extrapolating the trend, but only looking at the present, maybe. Problem with that is events tend to knock you on the head, hard, as you are not aware of potential developments before the axe falls.

Ask many TV members who were saying the same thing when the markets 'lurched' , that first week, then were shouting buy! buy! the second week.

I've noticed a few posts lamenting substantial losses.

Seeing that you have a wife and daughter here, I'd say it is imperative that you keep on top of not only what is happening today, but where the trend may take us. Anything less is totally irresponsible for a family man.

Edited November 13, 2008 by OlRedEyes

[JimsKnight]

I'm curious what would happen to Western expats if this did turn into a civil war. Would their condos and savings be confiscated for the good of the Thai people? Would they be whipped through the streets and strung up from lampposts? Is there an undercurrent of resentment against "wealthy foreigners"?

For me the PAD represents the individual more than the group-think and the PPP is just some dressed up right-wing socialistic drone government.

Which one is more farang friendly?

Well I think the PAD, historically (pre-2000) they've been more pro-foreigner and laissez-faire. So my hand would be thrown in with them (if it had to be) if they are foriegner friendly again.

Compare this with the current government who have introduced a systematic suppression (read the moralistic laws) or liberties and immigration bs.

Toxins hordes certainly are not friendly towards farang unless you've embedded yourself into a thai village somewhere.

I know who my money would be with

But I wouldn't worry if you've got all your money in a safe haven offshore (which a wise expat always should consider).

But for those in Bangkok with big money tied up it would be more troublesome.

[Jingthing]

If you are invested here as many of us are, (many ways: years living here, money, businesses, investments, housing, relationships, families, etc.) then of course if things turn bad, we have a plenty to lose, perhaps usually not as much as Thais, but plenty. If you are renting a serviced apartment month to month, have no illiquid assets here, have no significant ties to Thais, then it would simply be a matter of a jaunt to the airport. Yes, I think many of us have very rational reasons to care.

[tso310]

Where's Wat Tyler when you need him ?

[Plus]

Apparently Jonathan Head has been brainwashed by local leftists, just as Isanese have been brainwashed by TRT propaganda machine.

Note that this "class struggle" exists only in areas where TRT had complete control over local and state media and opinion makers - Isan and the North (and for Northerners it's also a "homeboy" pehonomenon).

Creating an enemy - Bangkokian elites and their Democrat/PAD lapdogs - was a great rallying point for TRT to keep their flock together. TRT needed a boogeyman and they created it.

The rest of the country, where TRT didn't have a complete lock on, can't care less. In last year's election Dems picked up millions more votes than PPP on national party list in areas outside of Isan, where it got only 8% of the vote.

This "divide" is artificially created.

>>>

If the question is - can these brainwashed fighters for justice create real havoc? Yes then can. It happened in 1976, it happened just a fe months ago in Udon, and looks like it's set to happen again.

>>>

Funny that how Jonathan Head described lynching mob rampage in Udon as "clashes". New low for BBC reporters.

[CWMcMurray]

We -as Farang- however do not have the right (as if we would be able to in the first place...) to the intervene in Thai politics and/or the Thai classes struggle (where this OP is all about).

Yes, we do not want to violate the prime directive, we are only here to observe...

I agree that there is little chance that any farang(s) could effectively intervene in Thai politics, nor do I personally have any desire what so ever to do so.

But... I think that any Farang that makes his home here in Thailand has the right to try if he likes.

I believe the same of any of the Mexicans or any other immigrants that are living in the US, they have the right to try and influence the political discussion there. I would never make the comment to any of them, "This is the US if you don't like it too bad, go back to Mexico!!!" and I would also never make a similar comment to any of the foreigners living in Thailand who would like to get involved in the polical discussion.

Interesting views and opinion.

But I think that -legal- Mexicans, working and living in the US have a different status than expats, living in Thailand.

Most Farang are not allowed to work and it's also quite difficult to become a Thai rather than American.....right or wrong ?

LaoPo

True that immigrants in the US may enjoy a different legal status than most foreigner's who call Thailand their home.

But let me ask you a question.... should someone's right to try and influence his community's policies and enter into the political discussion be based solely upon the immigration regulations of his host country?

Voting rights can be based upon these things, but is it fair to say, "You are not allowed to have an oipinion or enter the political discussion unless the the Thai government changes their immigration policies?"

I would venture to say that most Farangs are here legally on one type of visa or another. Most are not breaking the law. Many have made their homes here and what happens in Thailand can and will effect their lives and the lives of their families. Have they no right to an opinion? Have they no right to try and make their opinions known if they choose?

I would say yes, they have every right to do so if they choose, but I am sure that just like in most other countries politicians are not teribly concerned with any segmant of the population that can not or does not vote.

Edited November 13, 2008 by CWMcMurray

[citizen33]

Apparently Jonathan Head has been brainwashed by local leftists, just as Isanese have been brainwashed by TRT propaganda machine.

Note that this "class struggle" exists only in areas where TRT had complete control over local and state media and opinion makers - Isan and the North (and for Northerners it's also a "homeboy" pehonomenon).

Creating an enemy - Bangkokian elites and their Democrat/PAD lapdogs - was a great rallying point for TRT to keep their flock together. TRT needed a boogeyman and they created it.

The rest of the country, where TRT didn't have a complete lock on, can't care less. In last year's election Dems picked up millions more votes than PPP on national party list in areas outside of Isan, where it got only 8% of the vote.

This "divide" is artificially created.

>>>

If the question is - can these brainwashed fighters for justice create real havoc? Yes then can. It happened in 1976, it happened just a fe months ago in Udon, and looks like it's set to happen again.

>>>

Funny that how Jonathan Head described lynching mob rampage in Udon as "clashes". New low for BBC reporters.

I'd say that many of the 'brainwashed' have been radicalized by the very PAD news reports that you know and love. Some of the people making extravagant statements on the platforms near Government House are wonderful recruiting sergeants for the PPP in Isaan and the North. I don't think the PAD-supporting cabal from the news threads has really grasped how pissed off some rural people are going to be if they believe that they will lose their votes. It is said that revolutions occur not at times of absolute deprivation, but when things get worse after a period of apparent improvement.

[Plus]

how pissed off some rural people are going to be if they believe that they will lose their votes

That's another example of brainwashing - nowhere in PAD proposals there's anything about losing votes.

The "translation" provided for Isanese was invented by the likes of Jonathan Head, among others.

Sure, some speeches on PAD stage are counter productive to their cause, but since ASTV launch TRT support nationwide has declined significantly, to the point that the government needed to launch their own counter propaganda program on state run TV.