State Of Emergency Declared

[Wolfie]

You dont do crowd control with automatic weapons

PAD announced earlier they will "fight to the death". Maybe the government is granting their wish?

Lets hope not, the police cutting down PAD will probably result in the Army cutting down the Police...

[ray08]

Why M16's

Exactly.

M16's are crowd control tools, right?

Shoot the front row and the crowd leaves, right?

Yes, the true face of a lost government with bunker isolated paranoia.

What do you suggest , water pistols ?

You dont do crowd control with automatic weapons

unfortunatley ,this is more than crowd control ,the PAD are armed and said they will not leave , i think the police would be mad not to arm themselves, remmember pictures of the PAD shooting , anyway i think this is what the PAD want ,a violent confrentation as long as Sondhi is not at the front

[henryalleman]

Any PAD supporters still holed up at the airport have ZERO sympathy from me if they get hurt or killed. They know what they did, they know what's coming. You can't just seize an international airport and expect to be greeted with flowers and cookies.

If they had seized the JFK or L.A. airport, it would have ended a long time ago, and probably much worse than the Thai police will hopefully end it tonight. As far as I'm concerned, if you run past security at the JFK or L.A. airport, protesting something or not, you get shot in the back before you get anywhere. The Thai government and police have been more than patient, but enough is enough.

Oh yeah killing people and taking away their freedom of speech will solve everything...............NOT!!!

It's good to see that Thailand is more civilised and democratic then the US is and allows freedom.

So a few people get stranded, is that the end of the world?

Violence begats violence

Peace begats peace!

I cant fathom callous comments like yours mate?

You couldn't care less if people died ?????

<snip>

Yes "Civilized and Democratic" explain why Thailand has had 18 military coups in the last 50 years... and why people are shooting and bombing each other in the streets right now.

Please keep it in perspective. Everything go's on rather peaceful. There is no destruction of public buildings, no looting, no massive car burning. When you compare this with riots in the US, UK, Paris, anti globalist and anti EU demonstrations by Farmers who came to Brussels from allover Europe. Compared with this the Thai demonstrators are really civilised and I do respect them for that.

As an European I make the following hypothetical comparison.

If the yellow and red shirts had the same behavior, as demonstrating Muslim youngsters, anti globalist or football hooligans, at this moment Bangkok would be in ruins, and Suva burned down completely.

And for my American friends they should modest a little bit, or did they forgot the many racial riots in the US with looting, burning and killings.

And suggesting that a few killings are not terrible to clean up Suva shows only they brought up in violent society with no respect for human lives.

[jts-khorat]

Nation

No negotiation: Sondhi declares

Sondhi Limthongkul, No-1 leader of People's Alliance for Democracy, told protesters not to believe that the People's Alliance for Democracy would give in and negotiate with police to move protesters out of the Suvarnabhumi International Airport and Don Mueang Airport .

"PAD leaders will never negotiate with police," Sondhi told the crowd at the government House.

Sondhi also warned police not to listen to orders from Interior Minister Kowit Wattana, saying the People Power Party would be dissolved by the Constitution Court after December 2 and the House would be dissolved and Kowit would lose power.

The nation

He really has lost the plot now; feeding his own followers as cannon fodder to the (most likely inept) police; who noted that he spoke from Government House, not from one of the airports?

Words are always preferrable to bullets, but for that both sides have to be willing to talk. If one side refuses any communication and rather wants to "fight to the death", this is a wish that can be granted. Thailand's image has already been run down completely, even pictures of yellow shirts splattered with a lot of red cannot be much worse by now -- as nearly everybody I know expects this development anyway.

[hammered]

On TOC they have a guitarist singer entetrtaining the reasonably big looking crowwd at Suvarnaphumi. It is surreal. I still dont figure M16s in all of this. That is just not the way it is done. There are also lots of women in the crowd.

[erobando]

The domestic terrorists are the Thai Rouge drunks. They're running around w/ clubs and throwing granades. The PAD are just sitting in buildings.

"Just sitting in buildings".

Uh, yes. Seems pretty obvious to me.

Armed DAAD vigilantes on my soi are more of a threat to me. They could actually damage my property or physically attack me or my family. Even more of a threat bc the police aren't interested in stopping them.

The actions of the PAD are nothing more than potentially annoying.

[FatherF]

On TOC they have a guitarist singer entetrtaining the reasonably big looking crowwd at Suvarnaphumi. It is surreal. I still dont figure M16s in all of this. That is just not the way it is done. There are also lots of women in the crowd.

I'm watching that my self! Unbelievable! I'm sure they're singing "Don't Don't stop the Carnival"

[regfrancis]

DW TV (Germany's world wide service) Just summed up the problem fairly -- in there main news story aired a minute ago.

They stated what each side wants, who they are and how they are attempting to achieve their aims.

Any way --this will soon filter down to the poor ''cannon fodder'' on the streets. Hopefully before they cost them selves too much.

It's unclear how people can be misled in this day of mass communications.

[pkrv]

Nation

No negotiation: Sondhi declares

Sondhi Limthongkul, No-1 leader of People's Alliance for Democracy, told protesters not to believe that the People's Alliance for Democracy would give in and negotiate with police to move protesters out of the Suvarnabhumi International Airport and Don Mueang Airport .

"PAD leaders will never negotiate with police," Sondhi told the crowd at the government House.

Sondhi also warned police not to listen to orders from Interior Minister Kowit Wattana, saying the People Power Party would be dissolved by the Constitution Court after December 2 and the House would be dissolved and Kowit would lose power.

The nation

Ohh so the courts verdict is known in advance (that would piss me off if I were Thai judiciary). And in the interim law and order administered by the Thai courts is in disarray, i.e. democracy cannot be upheld? Ohh good grief let the kids fight it out in the next election - no need for kids to be butchered on the streets is there? or is there?

[anotheruser]

The domestic terrorists are the Thai Rouge drunks. They're running around w/ clubs and throwing granades. The PAD are just sitting in buildings.

"Just sitting in buildings".

Uh, yes. Seems pretty obvious to me.

Armed DAAD vigilantes on my soi are more of a threat to me. They could actually damage my property or physically attack me or my family. Even more of a threat bc the police aren't interested in stopping them.

The actions of the PAD are nothing more than potentially annoying.

In most countries taking over an airport and trying to instigate a coup would be called a tad more than potentially annoying.

[baht&sold]

Govt spokesman: PM not yet affirmed to personally receive verdict on party dissolution

Government spokesman is skeptical on whether or not the Prime Minister himself will announce the party dissolution on December 2.

Government spokesman Mr. Nattawut Saikua (ณัฐวุฒิ ใสยเกื้อ) revealed that he has not yet received affirmation from Prime Minister Somchai Wongsawat as People Power Party (PPP) acting leader on whether or not the PM would personally tend the party dissolution verdict which to be announced by the Constitutional Court on December 2. However, in principle, party leader is permitted to attend the hearing either by himself or sending a representative on his behalf.

Thai News (just now)

[erobando]

In most countries taking over an airport and trying to instigate a coup would be called a tad more than potentially annoying.

My point is that the PAD's actions aren't terrorism. No physical threat to anyone.

The Thai Rouge are armed and have been attacking people. That's closer to terrorism.

[hammered]

AP reports Thai stocks advanced on Friday as investors hoped for a coup this weekend!

[Chang_paarp]

Nation

No negotiation: Sondhi declares

Sondhi Limthongkul, No-1 leader of People's Alliance for Democracy, told protesters not to believe that the People's Alliance for Democracy would give in and negotiate with police to move protesters out of the Suvarnabhumi International Airport and Don Mueang Airport .

"PAD leaders will never negotiate with police," Sondhi told the crowd at the government House.

Sondhi also warned police not to listen to orders from Interior Minister Kowit Wattana, saying the People Power Party would be dissolved by the Constitution Court after December 2 and the House would be dissolved and Kowit would lose power.

The nation

I can see Sondhi at the front line with all the faithful facing the incoming police. :D

[kloghead]

Sondhi Limthongkul Makes Stunning Return, Declaring New Target: Himself

BANGKOK, NOVEMBER 29, 2008 - Desperate to revive the sagging fortunes of his Manager Media and to return to the spotlight during the election run-up, controversial journalist Sondhi Limthongkul branded himself a “liar” and “traitor” yesterday in a stunning press conference at his Baan Phra Athit headquarters.

The brilliant self-promoter called for his own resignation and exile and said that he would hold a massive rally a week before the election if his demands were not met.

“I am a con-man and an opportunist who has taken this country down a complete dead-end,” said Sondhi. "I should leave the country forever and never come back." He then shouted his trademark "Ok pai!" chant to delirious cheers from his employees and supporters.

The colorful “journalist” said that if he had not left the country before December 20 he would hold a rally that would make his previous rallies look tiny in comparison.

“Thais will pour into the streets by the millions demanding that I finally shut up. They will pay respects to Democracy Monument and then storm my residence in an unprecedented display of people’s power. I will personally lead the charge, arm in arm with my brothers, and then once they have spoken I will leave the country in disgrace.”

The other PAD leaders said that they backed the plan 100 percent. Spokesman Phipop Thongchai vehemently denied that suggested a split between Sondhi and the rest of the PAD’s leadership. “We are firmly on Sondhi’s side here. We all agree he is a fraud and a crook."

This new strategy, he said, is also in line with the PAD's overall goals, which are to hold rallies and get people all worked up in the name of democracy.

Chamlong Srimuang said he would lead his cult of vegetarian virgins in the march. “I will march with Sondhi and then I will hold a sit-in demanding he leave the country.”

At the end of the press conference yesterday, Sondhi called another press conference for Friday where he said he would answer the charges against him. He then led the assembled press corps to the local court house, where he asked his lawyer to launch a 700 billion-baht lawsuit against himself for slander.

[animatic]

Of course he is not a saint, he stole, he ordered killings, but a white dove cannot beat a blood-thirsty panther,so...

Huh? In a sentence that starts with "He ordered killings", there can be no "but". Not with me. Not in normal times. Not in extraordinary times.

I gave some though to PAD vs PPP - I came to the following conclusion: I agree with all the criticism the PAD has for the PPP. The PPP is a corrupt regime which has taken money from the Thai people. It looks like their only goal now is to exonerate Thaksin and perhaps even give him absolute power (with the PAD out of the way, presumably). Then they want to go on line their own pockets with new megaprojects, or worse. I have the feeling they will be much worse than before if they win this battle.

The PAD is also correct in that the PPP will win any further elections as long as things remain the same. That's the problem.

Vote buying, deplorable as it is, is not a significant factor - just talk to anybody in the north. Votes are "bought" by the PPP by giving loans and near-free healthcare to the poor - now that's something that's very similar to what happens in all democratic countries, except in Thailand people actually got something from the PPP government. Taksinomics is an unjust redistribution of wealth from the middle class through the PPP to the people - but it's hard to argue against this in a democracy. More to the poor, less to the middle class, and a very healthy cut of everything to the Taksinistas. Majority of votes guaranteed.

Where the PAD is wrong is in the solutions they offer for the problem: Less democracy, an army coup, appointed government. I have absolutely no doubt that such a solution, if implemented, would make things worse, much worse, for a long time to come.

What they should do instead is to fight for: A free media, and an independent, and working judiciary. Then the corrupt PPP would be taken down one by one over their many corrupt schemes. The media would be free to report on _anything_. Even the stuff that we can't discuss on the forums. The problem with democracy in Thailand is that there is no media freedom, and the rule of law is extremely weak, hence this is no real democracy. It's an elected dictatorship. What Thailand needs is more democracy, not less as the PAD is proposing.

In general a well thought out view.

The last hightlighted is where PAD came into the picture a few years back.

This basically WAS their platform round one. Just replace TRT with PPP in the sentence.

[sprq]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7754381.stm

PM dismisses chief of police

[animatic]

You dont do crowd control with automatic weapons

PAD announced earlier they will "fight to the death". Maybe the government is granting their wish?

Lets hope not, the police cutting down PAD will probably result in the Army cutting down the Police...

Well no love lost between these to fiefdoms...

[anotheruser]

In most countries taking over an airport and trying to instigate a coup would be called a tad more than potentially annoying.

My point is that the PAD's actions aren't terrorism. No physical threat to anyone.

The Thai Rouge are armed and have been attacking people. That's closer to terrorism.

As I said earlier I am not on either side and don't care who wins. That being said their actions become dangerous when armed police march in if they don't heed the warnings to leave.

[oceano]

20.08...so? nothing happen??

[scratt]

...their actions become dangerous when armed police march in if they don't heed the warnings to leave.

Right.

Because sitting on the floor in a peaceful protest is really dangerous behavior!

You do know it's illegal to smoke dope here, don't you?

[filingaccount]

The domestic terrorists are the Thai Rouge drunks. They're running around w/ clubs and throwing granades. The PAD are just sitting in buildings.

Get you FACTS correct

PAD supporters are not "just sitting in buildings".

Edited November 28, 2008 by filingaccount

[animatic]

Oh yeah killing people and taking away their freedom of speech will solve everything...............NOT!!!

It's good to see that Thailand is more civilised and democratic then the US is and allows freedom.

So a few people get stranded, is that the end of the world?

Violence begats violence

Peace begats peace!

I cant fathom callous comments like yours mate?

You couldn't care less if people died ?????

<snip>

Yes "Civilized and Democratic" explain why Thailand has had 18 military coups in the last 50 years... and why people are shooting and bombing each other in the streets right now.

Please keep it in perspective. Everything go's on rather peaceful. There is no destruction of public buildings, no looting, no massive car burning. When you compare this with riots in the US, UK, Paris, anti globalist and anti EU demonstrations by Farmers who came to Brussels from allover Europe. Compared with this the Thai demonstrators are really civilised and I do respect them for that.

As an European I make the following hypothetical comparison.

If the yellow and red shirts had the same behavior, as demonstrating Muslim youngsters, anti globalist or football hooligans, at this moment Bangkok would be in ruins, and Suva burned down completely.

And for my American friends they should modest a little bit,

or did they forgot the many racial riots in the US with looting, burning and killings.

And suggesting that a few killings are not terrible to clean up Suva

shows only they brought up in violent society with no respect for human lives.

Henry well put.

I have a dual persepctive

I am American and been in race riots in the USA : Boston school bussing riots, early 70's.

and lived in europe for 10 years and got caught in a Banlieu riot near Paris, early 90's.

Passed by Millau just minutes AFTER the sheep/cheese farmers burnt McDonalds over Camembert tarif laws.

Yes the sacked a town and burnt MacDonalds over CHEESE tarifs... round 2000 or so.

I have seen the strikes in both countries and seen the resolutions.

Seen european highways blocked by truckers for days on end,

and not any M16's brought out to solve it either.

Whole transit systems brought down for 3+ weeks. Paris '95

No M16's either.

I also saw British football hoolligans near Lyon too.

As scary as all the above.

Other With the exception of these Reds lobbing grenades in

a dastardly and cowardly fashion at PAD under cover of darkness,

this has been done pretty civilized by MANY measurements.

Only the PRO-Thaksin forces use reprehensible means to their ends.

That is why PAD will die before they allow the Thaksin side to prevail.

Edited November 28, 2008 by animatic

[MikeWill]

I have seen repeatedly people say that PPP has "thugs" but PAD has "supporters and protesters"

I have also read how PPP carrys out "vote buying" but PAD "compensates supporters for lost earnings"

Or should we just be saying the PPP *are* thugs?

The easiest way out of the current deadlock is new elections.

The question is: why the current government refuses to call for the new elections, if they are so sure in the outcome?

Is it because they want to remove the vote-fraud rule from the constitution first?

[henryalleman]

No, you misunderstand.

I am talking about IQ tests and un-partisan politcal awareness.

Neither require any more than the ability to talk / listen and / or read / write.

Let's see your IQ test would just be:

Thai person walks into testing room, instructor says please site down. Tester sits down, a piece of paper says "write your name", the tester writes his/her name. Instructor says "please state your name", tester says "My name is XXXX". Instructor says "okay you can read/write and listen... You passed!!!!"

Is that all you want? Or do you want a true IQ test that asks questions including science, history, math, comprehensive reading? If you want a true IQ test then my first points are all valid, and even if you don't realize it you a for class segregation .

I think you need to go and read wikipedia or something, and then come back and discuss IQ properly.

Reading and believing Wikipedia is not a sign of intelligence same as looking and believe Fox news or reading the National Enquirer.

[anotheruser]

...their actions become dangerous when armed police march in if they don't heed the warnings to leave.

Right.

Because sitting on the floor in a peaceful protest is really dangerous behavior!

You do know it's illegal to smoke dope here, don't you?

If you can't see the dangerous game being played out here then there is nothing more to say. It seems to me that the PAD is saying they don't want violence. If that truly is the case they will leave before violence happens. I am not saying they should be gunned down. I am saying it would be sort of dangerous to have old women and children sitting around with you and wait to be gunned down. Now if you had your kids in that situation in the west you would probably lose them as this would be perceived as child endangerment. If sitting on the floor in peace is not dangerous why are some of them armed?

Calling for a coup and taking over an airport while armed in most countries would be considered dangerous. If this ends badly come back and say you didn't understand the danger. That is all I have to say to you so feel free to have the last word.

[scratt]

I have seen repeatedly people say that PPP has "thugs" but PAD has "supporters and protesters"

I have also read how PPP carrys out "vote buying" but PAD "compensates supporters for lost earnings"

Or should we just be saying the PPP *are* thugs?

The easiest way out of the current deadlock is new elections.

The question is: why the current government refuses to call for the new elections, if they are so sure in the outcome?

Is it because they want to remove the vote-fraud rule from the constitution first?

Hmmmm.. Do ya think so?

Now there's an idea!!

[henryalleman]

This entire debate - not to mention the hours and hours of TV discussions and media analysis - is a complete waste of time.

Everyone with anything more than a rudimentary knowledge of Thailand knows what it takes to end this debacle. As that subject cannot be discussed, every other argument or conjecture is just pissing in the wind.

I agree

I agree

I don't agree. It's ok to have discussions. If it's not your thing, log off. If Bendix or Wolfie or H90, with their superior insights of Thailand, know what it takes to end this debacle (airports closed, etc.) - then please enlighten us. Yet, by doing so, they're entering in to the debate, and thereby adding to their described 'complete waste of time.'

A farang who wrote a newspaper column for Bkk Post - used to often end his paragraphs with 'nuff said.' ...as if his opinion was the final word on everything. I don't like that attitude - of being Mr. Know It All.

Much better is to offer opinions - and then listen to others' responses - back and forth. In a word; 'dialogue.' That's what these topics on Thaivisa offer. For sure, there will be many opinions you don't agree with, but you can enter your own ideas, or go off to do something else. To just throw mud at the whole process is a cop out - especially if your so-called 'solution' is not articulated - and you resort to calling everyone in the debate stupid.

I don't agree. It's ok to have discussions. If it's not your thing, log off. If Bendix or Wolfie or H90, with their superior insights of Thailand, know what it takes to end this debacle (airports closed, etc.) - then please enlighten us.

If you are realy serious about it, you just cancel the first paragraph of the forum rules.

[scratt]

...their actions become dangerous when armed police march in if they don't heed the warnings to leave.

Right.

Because sitting on the floor in a peaceful protest is really dangerous behavior!

You do know it's illegal to smoke dope here, don't you?

If you can't see the dangerous game being played out here then there is nothing more to say. It seems to me that the PAD is saying they don't want violence. If that truly is the case they will leave before violence happens. I am not saying they should be gunned down. I am saying it would be sort of dangerous to have old women and children sitting around with you and wait to be gunned down. Now if you had your kids in that situation in the west you would probably lose them as this would be perceived as child endangerment. If sitting on the floor in peace is not dangerous why are some of them armed?

Calling for a coup and taking over an airport while armed in most countries would be considered dangerous. If this ends badly come back and say you didn't understand the danger. That is all I have to say to you so feel free to have the last word.

Except that they are not instigating the violence. You cannot turn it around when others commit the violence! Duh!

Except that they have no weapons.

Except that Thailand is *not* most countries.

I could go on...

[esprit]

Can anyone confirm calls I have had that the Army are mobilising around BKK ?