Equality For Thai Wives

[torrenova]

Logistics is the nightmare even if you were lucky enough to get a Thai lawyer who would risk it (perhaps a bored retired law professor ?) and who would not rip you off. Just how much do you think it would cost and how long would it drag on ?

Some simple maths.

If the total cost was 10m baht over 10 years and you had 100 people then it would cost each of them Bt10,000 a year and people would not pay that. Get down to Bt1000 a person and you'd need the support of 1000 people over 10 years. Totally impractical, nevermind the administration charges.

Then you have the very real possibility that they make an example of one person and suddenly he is out of a job or has his visa revoked. What then ? It is not your country and though it would be the wives pushing for change, it would be the individuals who suffer.

The only way I see it could come through would be for a human rights group (and they have more to worry about than this) or a Thai womans group to take it on.

It is wrong but there are some battles you fight and some you walk away from.

And having an negative attitude from the start is no way to win a fight or get some Change....

At this time we have no idea what the cost would be, or how long it would take to acheive some resolution to the problem...

We also have no idea if a lawyer would be willing to take the case, but I am much more optimistic than you are that there are lawyers in this town that are more concerned with Equal rights and having an effective constitution then you may think.

Times in Thailand are beginning tio change.. playing ostrich is no answer to an ongoing problem, and a negative defeatist attitude has no reward, except continued abuse..

If you continue to allow yourself to be bullied, then you will never gain any respect.

Hooking up with a Thai Woman's Rights organization sounds like a great idea.

And again I'm much more optimistic than you about their interest in joining us.

It is in their best interest to join us if we have a winnable case.. any win is a plus for Women's rights.

The more rights that they can claim the more public perception of the importance of Gender Equality is established.

This is a classic Win / Win situation for the women's rights movement.

Don't be defeatist.. be positive.

CS

I hate re-quoting myself but I think this needs it for clarification in this long thread.

I agree with you on your points as to the unknown cost or whether someone would take the case on but I did put over a potential scenario for each, whilst you, with your more positive viewpoint (your thoughts), offered no solution at all. Perhaps I am more positive than you think.

We are not being bullied, we are just not being awarded the same rights. The two are not the same. Please also think about the numbers. I would bet that for every single western woman marrying a Thai man there are 1000 Thai women married to western men. The implications of this have to be considered. The easiest solution for the government would be to remove benefits from women married to Thai men !

I was a risk analyst. My job was to make sure that the proverbial did not hit the fan and if it did, that it did not hit very hard. This allows me to view and assess what I currently have and weigh up the probability of achieving a positive outcome against the likelihood of worsening the current situation. It is not defeatist, just pragmatic.

Take for instance my situation. I live in Thailand with my partner and my child. Just what would be the downside if I were deemed by the powers that be to be undesirable and thus had my visa revoked ? Now weigh that up against my being married and being able to run with things in the same manner as a westerner married to a Thai man ? Add in the probability of success and the chances of a worst case scenario and you are somewhere near starting to understand a risk assessment of the situation. Do not forget that there are already work arounds to most things even under current legislation.

In a county like the UK with freedom of the press and freedom of speech and protection of civil liberties and human rights then you are far more likely to put you head above the fence. If you do really not see the potential downside then I am sorry because you are really so far away from scratching under the skin in Thailand that worrying about fringe issues like this should not be your concern.

I do not detract from your admirable stance but I worry about your lack of judgement in this matter. Perhaps you would be so kind as to give brief details of your situation and how these proposed changes would affect or could affect you. Good debate though.

[UmpaLumpa]

could you outline the main differences between the two marriages (farang- thai wife vs. thai- farang wife) ?

[Maestro]

In the 1980s I appealed a decision of a Swiss tax authority through all levels up to the supreme court for being discriminatory because the Swiss recipient of a loan from a foreign resident had to submit evidence that the creditor declared the interest received on the loan to his tax authority and paid the requisite tax on it whilst the recipient of a loan from a Swiss resident did not have to submit such evidence. The court’s decision went against me, saying that in this case the constitutional clause that all persons are equal before the law was not violated in my case because the decision was not arbitrary, all people who were in the same situation as I was were equally discriminated.

The same applies with the unequal treatment of Thai wives of foreigners versus foreign wises of Thais in Thailand regarding extensions of stay. Discrimination, yes; arbitrary discrimination, no.

Of course, the Thai constitution is not the same as the Swiss constitution and a case might be made here for violation of the constitution and/or, if Thailand is a signatory of a human rights charter, of such charter.

--

Maestro

[endure]

Does Thailand have 'class action' lawsuits or are they a peculiarly American thing?

[CosmicSurfer]

In the 1980s I appealed a decision of a Swiss tax authority through all levels up to the supreme court for being discriminatory because the Swiss recipient of a loan from a foreign resident had to submit evidence that the creditor declared the interest received on the loan to his tax authority and paid the requisite tax on it whilst the recipient of a loan from a Swiss resident did not have to submit such evidence. The court’s decision went against me, saying that in this case the constitutional clause that all persons are equal before the law was not violated in my case because the decision was not arbitrary, all people who were in the same situation as I was were equally discriminated.

The same applies with the unequal treatment of Thai wives of foreigners versus foreign wises of Thais in Thailand regarding extensions of stay. Discrimination, yes; arbitrary discrimination, no.

Of course, the Thai constitution is not the same as the Swiss constitution and a case might be made here for violation of the constitution and/or, if Thailand is a signatory of a human rights charter, of such charter.

--

Maestro

Don't get confused in the issue by all the Nay Sayers and posters that are ignoring the Focus of the Topic...

The issue here is not a difference in application of the Rules between Thai wives and Farang Wives....

It is the difference in application between Thai FEMALES and Thai MALES !!!!

and YES... Sexual Equality is guarenteed in the Thai Constitution.

Section 30. All persons are equal before the law and shall enjoy equal protection under the law.

Men and women shall enjoy equal rights.

Unjust discrimination against a person on the grounds of the difference in origin, race, language, sex, age, physical or health condition, personal status, economic or social standing, religious belief, education or constitutionally political view, shall not be permitted.

Measures determined by the State in order to eliminate obstacle to or to promote persons' ability to exercise their rights and liberties as other persons shall not be deemed as unjust discrimination under paragraph three.

And... Thailand is party to 5 major international human rights instruments

including - The United Nations Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women (CEDAW) (acceding on 8 Sep 1985)

If in this battle for the rights due to my wife, I too benefit, all the better.

In the long run it actually benefits Thailand.

CS

[Lite Beer]

From The Thai constitution.

[Mario2008]

In the 1980s I appealed a decision of a Swiss tax authority through all levels up to the supreme court for being discriminatory because the Swiss recipient of a loan from a foreign resident had to submit evidence that the creditor declared the interest received on the loan to his tax authority and paid the requisite tax on it whilst the recipient of a loan from a Swiss resident did not have to submit such evidence. The court's decision went against me, saying that in this case the constitutional clause that all persons are equal before the law was not violated in my case because the decision was not arbitrary, all people who were in the same situation as I was were equally discriminated.

The same applies with the unequal treatment of Thai wives of foreigners versus foreign wises of Thais in Thailand regarding extensions of stay. Discrimination, yes; arbitrary discrimination, no.

Of course, the Thai constitution is not the same as the Swiss constitution and a case might be made here for violation of the constitution and/or, if Thailand is a signatory of a human rights charter, of such charter.

--

Maestro

The ruling from the UN human rights body I mentioned in a earlier post is almost an exact copy of this case. It is a very clear cut case. Thailand is a party to the treaty in question, although it dos not recognize the posibility that a person will fill a complaint with the UN human rights commission. As said before, a Thai judge will non the less have a lot of explaining to do to come to another conclusion.

[Mario2008]

If I get a chance.. I just may go visit them next week.

CS

In the case I reffered to in an earlier post it was not for nothing that the women themselves filed a complaint with the UN human rights commission, not the foreign husbands themselves.

[Mario2008]

It might be an idea if someone rights a sample letter to file a complaint with the Thai national human rights commission and post it here so everyone who wants can send a letter to make a complaint. The power of numbers will count.

At leasst this procedure will only cost a stamp, no lawyer needed.

[bernie66]

You could never even get started unless a group of women came fourth about this. Not only our wives but women who are not married to furang would have to care. But they are Thai and will never care because it doesn't affect them directly. Even though the end result is their legal rights of equality, it would have to be a fashionable thing to do or their short attention spans would be the death of it. And to get women who are not married to furangs to give a crap you would have to make some cute little baby clothes and head bands with your logo on it. Then they could look cute for the TV cameras and more would show up. Thai women are only interested in saving face in front of there neighbor, not standing up for their neighbor. When it doesn't affect them they just walk with the rest of the cattle. Even though the end result would be the equality of their rights as women the majority won't care because they cannot wear it or show it to her friends.

Yesterday I showed my wife the new immigration policies in Thai after reading the translated versions provided here. I told her fictional restrictions saying that we could only spend 15 days every 90 days together. Knowing it did not say this at all but thinking I could get some kind of reaction out of her so she would read it. But she didn't correct me at all and only said, "Well if this is the law." She obviously didn't even read it. I would bet that your wives have the same nonchalant reactions. After all they already have the car all of their friends wanted and don't care if their insurance cost more than a man's.

One time I asked my wife about how women are treated in prison. I told her that I had heard some rumor that they were kept in common areas and not protected from rape by the male inmates. She said," that's a lie! Only low class women are treated like that." "If you come from a good family you are treated better", she continued. I fear that the majority of Thai women are filled with similar delusions that things like this could never affect them. They are oblivious to any rights they might be entitled to or cheated out of under Thai law. When people are treated unjustly that they deserve it in some way is the impression I get from them. My wife never batted an eye when I asked her about a woman that might be falsely incarcerated. Don't you realize that some people get framed you idiot! But this could never happen to her because she doesn't break the law. Her resolve is that it did not affect her so she doesn't care.

Thai women would never help our cause. We furang married to Thai women are nothing more than something fashionable. We are the rich prince charming with a 9 inch member. They like us too old to run around on them or to catch them running around on us. They don't love us but only what they want us to be. When we begin to become too inconvenient to them through immigrant restrictions they will move on to Japanese or Chinese men. And we will move to another country chasing the women that our own societies judge out of our caste or too attractive for men of our stature.

The idea that Thai women would stand up for themselves and their husbands is a beautiful thought but it will never happen. I would give you money to follow this but only if you posted a picture of your wife's face when you tell her what you are up to.

Edited December 5, 2008 by bernie66

[CosmicSurfer]

I hate re-quoting myself but I think this needs it for clarification in this long thread.

I agree with you on your points as to the unknown cost or whether someone would take the case on but I did put over a potential scenario for each, whilst you, with your more positive viewpoint (your thoughts), offered no solution at all. Perhaps I am more positive than you think.

I think your scenario is a smoke screen .. and I do offer a viable solution, while you, on the other hand only offer a negative attitude and the solution of "Do Nothing"... which is truly no solution at all.

We are not being bullied, we are just not being awarded the same rights. The two are not the same. Please also think about the numbers. I would bet that for every single western woman marrying a Thai man there are 1000 Thai women married to western men. The implications of this have to be considered. The easiest solution for the government would be to remove benefits from women married to Thai men !

This is not my concern.. Maybe you feel that is selfish.. personally I believe that "Two wrongs don't make a Right".

And if Thailand wished to REMOVE a Right, they would have to make an Amendment to the constitution. Remember, this is NOT an issue of Farang husbands.. It is an issue of Sexual discrimination and Equality... a Right protected by the Contitution of Thailand.

Thai Woman vs Thai Men.. this has nothing to do with you.

I was a risk analyst. My job was to make sure that the proverbial did not hit the fan and if it did, that it did not hit very hard. This allows me to view and assess what I currently have and weigh up the probability of achieving a positive outcome against the likelihood of worsening the current situation. It is not defeatist, just pragmatic.

Again... This is NOT defeatist... and I'm not worried about YOU protecting YOUR feathered nest... I'm worried about me and mine... and also all those others that are in the same or similar situations. We have nothing to protect, except the Right to remain here with our wives and make positive contributions to our adopted new homeland.. Yes.. I chose to live here.. This is my home.. and I'm protecting it from those like you that only are interested in perpetuationg the Staus Quo. I want my future Kids to grow up in a Free and Equal society. This is a Risk, I'm willing to take, after all what is the worst that can happen... I would have to leave Thailand... well that is the risk I take now, under these new rules. So, under my Risk Anaylsis, It's a wash...

Take for instance my situation. I live in Thailand with my partner and my child. Just what would be the downside if I were deemed by the powers that be to be undesirable and thus had my visa revoked ? Now weigh that up against my being married and being able to run with things in the same manner as a westerner married to a Thai man ? Add in the probability of success and the chances of a worst case scenario and you are somewhere near starting to understand a risk assessment of the situation. Do not forget that there are already work arounds to most things even under current legislation.

Firstly, why do you feel that you would be made "undesirable".. a little Paranoid aren't you.... Besides being selfish... from the language in this paragraph I'm detecting that you are a Farang Woman.. and therfore being protective of your own comfortable staus... But also turning your back on the desires for Equality from your Thai "Sisters". And, just to salve your worries, for the Thai government to Take Away the Rights of a Thai male, would not only be culturally intolarable, but against International norm in the protection of Human Rights... in other words... IT WON'T HAPPEN !!!

In a county like the UK with freedom of the press and freedom of speech and protection of civil liberties and human rights then you are far more likely to put you head above the fence. If you do really not see the potential downside then I am sorry because you are really so far away from scratching under the skin in Thailand that worrying about fringe issues like this should not be your concern.

Like I've said before.. There is no Downside.. Only an Up-Side... and The Risk I take is the same Risk I face every year attempting to get my next years visa... So Sorry if You can't see that through the blinders you have... and... I do believe that the Freedoms you cherish so much in our home countries can only be had in Thailand if the Thai people defend there rights... and demand their freedom... exactly what I'm proposing for my wife, who is legallly and morally entitled... and as I try and stay here to support her in all things, not only financially, (Because love is about support) I support her right to also be comfortable in the knowledge that her Husband will remain by her side.. and not deported for the crime of being "poor" by the standards imposed by Thai Immigration Police.

I do not detract from your admirable stance but I worry about your lack of judgement in this matter. Perhaps you would be so kind as to give brief details of your situation and how these proposed changes would affect or could affect you. Good debate though.

I think I have adequately explained myself, and my reasons. My "Lack of Judgement" is your perception only, and I feel sorry that you see it that way.. It's unfortunate for you that you feel so little empathy that you allow your worries about your own situation to cloud and distort everything you learned about Freedom, Equality and Fraternity.. the cornerstones of Democracy and most civilized Societies of the 21st Century.

As too how these changes could or would effect ME... My Visa Extension is based on my Wife's declared income... The changes effect me directly, and make my life, which is already too full of the day-to-day stresses of living in this beautiful country, all the more stressfull... Not only do I need to worry about making my wife happy and how to provide for my family... (I understand the priorities of a sucessful marriage.) Now I must add the worry of how do I continue to qualify to STAY and kep my family together.

A worry that you don't have, and you therefore can't understand.

CS

[CosmicSurfer]

If I get a chance.. I just may go visit them next week.

CS

In the case I reffered to in an earlier post it was not for nothing that the women themselves filed a complaint with the UN human rights commission, not the foreign husbands themselves.

The complaint would be filed by my wife... Joined I HOPE by the wives of other members of this forum...

But I just want to get the required forms and inquire as to whether or not they would be interested in joining in any potential Legal action.

Gotta Start someplace,.. and my wife works all day, earning the income that I can no longer use to get my extension.

CS

[CosmicSurfer]

I would give you money to follow this but only if you posted a picture of your wife's face when you tell her what you are up to.

I actually did tell her, after I started this thread.. No Secrets in our marriage...

and She said "Go for it. No Problem."

CS

[bernie66]

I would give you money to follow this but only if you posted a picture of your wife's face when you tell her what you are up to.

I actually did tell her, after I started this thread.. No Secrets in our marriage...

and She said "Go for it. No Problem."

CS

then you will get my donations and support. Maybe your wife's intelligence will rub off on my ice queen.

[Mario2008]

If I get a chance.. I just may go visit them next week.

CS

In the case I reffered to in an earlier post it was not for nothing that the women themselves filed a complaint with the UN human rights commission, not the foreign husbands themselves.

The complaint would be filed by my wife... Joined I HOPE by the wives of other members of this forum...

But I just want to get the required forms and inquire as to whether or not they would be interested in joining in any potential Legal action.

Gotta Start someplace,.. and my wife works all day, earning the income that I can no longer use to get my extension.

CS

Good for you and your wife. Like I said, post an example letter and hopefully a lot other Thai wifes will follow.

[Gravelrash]

The Nay Sayers are too used to bending over and taking it. Suggest that you first get an opinion from a very expensive and well connected law firm with a quote. Then you have something to pass the hat around for, or not.

[skippybangkok]

Keep me posted of your sucess..........

[Mario2008]

Here is a link to some Women Rights organisations in Thailand:

http://www.onlinewomeninpolitics.org/thai/thaiorgs.htm

[CosmicSurfer]

Here is a link to some Women Rights organisations in Thailand:

http://www.onlinewomeninpolitics.org/thai/thaiorgs.htm

This is Great... Thanks....

After I get some more info, maybe we need to form some group and meet to discuss strategy.

Any more ideas ???

CS

[Mario2008]

You can also look at it through the eyes of the right of the child. By making it more dificult for foreign fathers to stay with their Thai child, the childs rights to family live might be violated.

For now I would however suggest to focus on the rights of of Thai woman being violated, as that case is clear cut. But different groups can challenge the goevrnment from different perspectives.

[Martian]

I would give you money to follow this but only if you posted a picture of your wife's face when you tell her what you are up to.

I actually did tell her, after I started this thread.. No Secrets in our marriage...

and She said "Go for it. No Problem."

CS

then you will get my donations and support. Maybe your wife's intelligence will rub off on my ice queen.

I've had the privilege of seeing Cosmic's wife (wedding and casual pictures) and I would have to say that her face would bring in many contributions...she is a very pretty gal.....and from the sounds of it, quite intelligent also. Cosmic did good!

Martian

[abdulrahman]

It's a good try,you'll have my support,my wife too(maybe), if you can start.

Myself am too cynical,and share most of the opinions of bernie,the brainwashing that the Thais are subjected to from an early age are very effective.

[CWMcMurray]

I do agree with you; if you try, maybe change will take place, but if you don't try then you can be certain that nothing will ever change.

I love my wife, but I know her well enough to know that she would not be willing to take a lead role in this.

I wish you the best of luck and I am very interested in following this.

[tijnebijn]

I read in some posts that most think the option of extension of marriage

with the income of the wifes isn't possible anymore .

For what I understand it is only the case when you do not have any children , if you do

the income can be fron the husband or wife or the 400k .

Soundman pointed this out in another thread , I let my wife read the full script and she confirmed that

nothing has changed if married and having children for her to technically taking care of me .

But just being married this option is out . Now we all just wait and see how the first reports

of members being in the same situation turns out to be absolutely sure , but I am already .

To stay on topic I think the idea could be a good one , but advise should be the first step to do so .

And with advise I mean it should be from a group with some cloud in the courts , if not it will end in the

middle of nowhere like George pointed out .

ps A massive complain to immigration could or should be the first step perhaps , pointing out of the discrimination ,

if hundreds( or thousands ) of Thai woman married with Farang do this jointly as a group it will get attention (statement with signatures ), if no response a case at the court will follow as a threat if not be taken serious .

But will not be surprised that Thai bureaucracy will laugh at it as Thai soap series ....

Edited December 6, 2008 by tijnebijn

[ubonjoe]

The way I see the with children clause it is meant to be for a single parent and is also for a woman that has been married to a Thai man who has a child.

Now back on topic.

I agree that any action taken has to be done as a group.

I think that if we can get enough of our wives involved and make it one massive submittal to the goverment it will get some serious attention.

But it has to cover everything from the income rules to getting a PR and citizenship.

After that we should go for some type of special work permit that allows us to work without all the company rules, salary and etc. That is why Thai men do not have to show a specific amount of money to get a visa for their wives they can work without all the restrictions.

Edited December 7, 2008 by ubonjoe

[Mario2008]

It is good to note once again that in Shirin Aumeeruddy-Cziffra and 19 other Mauritian women v. Mauritius

the fact that foreign husbands were treaded differently then foreign man is the basis of this ruling: sex dsicrimination. The rules it self not and if the rules were equal for foreign man and woman there would not have been a problem. A state has every right to ristrict the access of aliens to their territory and expell those who are a security risk.

The people who could complain were the woman with a foreign husband, who were in immidiate risk of the human rights violation, the mere theoratically possibility was not enough. A Thai court would presumable restrict complaints likewise. How the national humanrights commisison will act is unknown, they might allow support from woman rightsgroups.

As to other human rights violations regarding living and working in Thailand, I can see the following possible violations:

1. different income requirements depending on nationality (discrimination based on race)

2. The long waiting period till it is decided upon a residence permit, especialy in the case of a person married to a Thai national as the uncertainly to remain indefinatly puts strain on the family live.

3. The high costs of a residencey permit for people married to a Thai national. (the high costs can prohibit people from applying for permenent residency and undeermining the family live due to the continues uncertainty if one can stay in Thailand or not).

4. the same reasoning as in 3 goes to the income requirements for permanent residency. A state has every right to demand a minimum amount of income, as to ensure the person will not be at the exspense of the state. But given the averege income in Thailand one can question the set hight of income.

5. The provision that it must be the foreign income only for an extension of stay based on marriage to a Thai national is an unnecesarry obsticale and can prohibit family live.

Maybe someone can come up with some more.

[ubonjoe]

Thanks mario

Now it's amatter of getting organized. And getting the word out to all those not TV members.

A website would be a good start.

[GarryP]

Bernie66 is correct. Any action needs to be brought by the Thai wives. It is they who are discriminated against. Below is a post I originally posted in 2006, which although not about visa's, is definitely related.

"Some of you may find this court ruling interesting.

Summary of the Constitutional Court Ruling No. 37/2546

Dated 9th October B.E. 2546 (2003)

Re : The Ombudsman requests for a Constitutional Court ruling under

section 198 of the Constitution of the Kingdom of Thailand, B.E. 2540

(1997) on whether or not section 9 of the Nationality Act, B.E. 2508

(1965) has questions regarding constitutionality.

1. Background and summarized facts

Mr. Pongthep Thepkanjana, the Chairman of Sub-Committee on Legal, Social and

Political Fields, submitted a petition to the Ombudsman which could be summarized as

follows. Section 9 of the Nationality Act, B.E. 2508 (1965) provided for the principle

regarding the nationality alteration of a foreign woman who married a man with Thai

nationality. The principle stated that a person who wished to acquire Thai nationality could submit an application to a competent authority for altering nationality. However, the said Nationality Act did not entitle a foreign man who married a woman with Thai nationality to acquire Thai nationality by alteration. That foreign men who married women with Thai nationality were not entitled to acquire nationality by alteration as same as foreign women who married men with Thai nationality were, gave rise to questions on personal status and family establishment of women in terms that there was inequality between Thai women and Thai men who married foreign men or foreign women respectively. Such the provision of section 9 may accordingly be contrary to or inconsistent with section 30 of the Constitution of the Kingdom of Thailand, B.E. 2540 (1997) which stated that “Men and women shall enjoy equal rights”. Therefore, the Ombudsman was requested to submit the case and the opinion to the Constitutional Court for decision under section 198 of the Constitution of the Kingdom of Thailand, B.E. 2540 (1997).

2. Preliminary issue

After considering the application of the Ombudsman, the Constitutional Court held the followings. Section 9 of the Nationality Act, B.E. 2508 (1965) provided that only foreign women who married men with Thai nationality had the right to apply for Thai nationality. The said provision did not grant the same right to foreign men who married women with Thai nationality. The provision of section 9 was therefore deemed as unjust discrimination against a person on the ground of the difference in gender. Whereas

section 198 of the Constitution of the Kingdom of Thailand, B.E. 2540 (1997) was the

provision regarding the review of constitutionality of the provisions of the law, rules,

regulations or any act of any person under section 197 subparagraph (1) of the Constitution by way that the Ombudsman submitted the case and the opinion to the Constitutional Court or Administrative Court for decision, and whereas, according to the application, the issue to be considered was whether the provision of section 9 of the Nationality Act, B.E. 2508 (1965) had questions regarding the constitutionality, the case was therefore within the power of the Constitutional Court to accept the application of the Ombudsman containing the matter and opinion for decision under section 198 of the Constitution of the Kingdom of Thailand, B.E. 2540 (1997).

3. The issue considered by the Constitutional Court

Was there section 9 of the Nationality Act, B.E. 2508 (1965) questions regarding

constitutionality under section 30 of the Constitution of the Kingdom of Thailand, B.E. 2540 (1997) ?

The Constitutional Court held as follows. The acquisition of Thai nationality of

foreigners by marriage was the sovereignty of the State to prescribing rules and conditions in form of promulgating a law which was the Nationality Act, B.E. 2508 (1965). The said Act contained the provisions of section 9 paragraph one which provided that “If a woman who is a foreigner and is married to a man with Thai nationality desires to acquire Thai nationality, she shall submit an application to the official in the form and according to procedures prescribed by ministerial regulations” and section 9 paragraph two which provided that “The permission or non-permission of acquiring the Thai nationality shall be at the discretion of the Minister”. The promulgation of such Act was within the power of the State. After considering the above-mentioned provisions, it could not be deemed that these provisions resulted in the inequality before the law between men and women or unequal rights giving to men and women. It was because they were measures determined by the State to be appropriate for social nature and security of the State. The law did not bar the right of foreign men who were married to women with Thai nationality to acquire Thai nationality.

They could acquire the Thai nationality according to the rules and conditions prescribed

by the law which was as provided in section 10, section 11 and section 12 in Chapter 1:

the Acquisition of Thai Nationality of the Nationality Act, B.E. 2508 (1965). Those

provisions did not cause any difficulty and any question on personal status whatsoever

and could not therefore be deemed as unjust discrimination against a person on the ground of the difference in gender and being contrary to international law. Accordingly, the provision of section 9 of the Nationality Act, B.E. 2508 (1965) was consistent with section 30 of the Constitution of the Kingdom of Thailand, B.E. 2540 (1997).

4. Ruling of the Constitutional Court

The Constitutional Court held that section 9 of the Nationality Act, B.E. 2508 (1965) had no questions regarding the constitutionality, because it was not contrary to or inconsistent with section 30 of the Constitution of the Kingdom of Thailand, B.E. 2540

(1997).

*Published in the Government Gazette, Vol.121, Part 41a, dated 25th June B.E. 2547 (2004)"

[Mario2008]

Good and relevant information.

The ombudsman is also an option.

Website of the ombudsman:

http://www.ombudsman.go.th/eng_version/main_eng.asp

[CosmicSurfer]

The Constitutional Court held as follows. The acquisition of Thai nationality of

foreigners by marriage was the sovereignty of the State to prescribing rules and conditions in form of promulgating a law which was the Nationality Act, B.E. 2508 (1965). The said Act contained the provisions of section 9 paragraph one which provided that “If a woman who is a foreigner and is married to a man with Thai nationality desires to acquire Thai nationality, she shall submit an application to the official in the form and according to procedures prescribed by ministerial regulations” and section 9 paragraph two which provided that “The permission or non-permission of acquiring the Thai nationality shall be at the discretion of the Minister”. The promulgation of such Act was within the power of the State. After considering the above-mentioned provisions, it could not be deemed that these provisions resulted in the inequality before the law between men and women or unequal rights giving to men and women. It was because they were measures determined by the State to be appropriate for social nature and security of the State. The law did not bar the right of foreign men who were married to women with Thai nationality to acquire Thai nationality.

They could acquire the Thai nationality according to the rules and conditions prescribed

by the law which was as provided in section 10, section 11 and section 12 in Chapter 1:

the Acquisition of Thai Nationality of the Nationality Act, B.E. 2508 (1965). Those

provisions did not cause any difficulty and any question on personal status whatsoever

and could not therefore be deemed as unjust discrimination against a person on the ground of the difference in gender and being contrary to international law. Accordingly, the provision of section 9 of the Nationality Act, B.E. 2508 (1965) was consistent with section 30 of the Constitution of the Kingdom of Thailand, B.E. 2540 (1997).

4. Ruling of the Constitutional Court

The Constitutional Court held that section 9 of the Nationality Act, B.E. 2508 (1965) had no questions regarding the constitutionality, because it was not contrary to or inconsistent with section 30 of the Constitution of the Kingdom of Thailand, B.E. 2540

(1997).

*Published in the Government Gazette, Vol.121, Part 41a, dated 25th June B.E. 2547 (2004)"

Constitution Court of Thailand ... a Cousin of the Supreme Court of the United States in Bush vs Gore, 2000

But isn't this ruling in and of itself discrimination under the Guise of "National Security" ?

Can't this excuse be fought, requiring the government to delinate just how a Farang Husband was more of a Threat to National Security and Thai Morality then either a Farang wife... Or a Thai man ???

Secondly, and more important, in this case it is focused on the Rights of a Foreign Male trying to aquire Thai Citizenship, BUT in our case, it is an Issue of a Thai Woman being denied the right to support her Family.

Is a Thai woman any less able to support her family than a Thai man?

I think our isssue is more relevant, and less defensible by the Government....

Of course they can try and twist the regulations anyway they want, and try and portray Farang Husbands as deadbeat, low-life sex addicts... But then again, if they want to get into a fight over how Thai wives are treated by their respective Husbands, Thai or Farang... How can we lose?

I hope to follow up with some Woman's Organization later this week. Finding weekday time is an issue.

CS