Equality For Thai Wives

[CosmicSurfer]

Note that it aren't only the Thai wives, but also the Thai children with a foreign father who are discriminated against by the immigration rules. Children have their own rights, which are also trempled upon.

Very good point... ammunition in favor of keeping families together.

But, unfortunately, this would not be relevent regarding a case for a Thai Female's ability to use her income to be the support of the family.

Remember that all this stems from the explicit targeting of Thai Wives and the 40k Baht Monthly income no longer based on "Combined" income.

But good idea anyway,

CS

[Mario2008]

Note that it aren't only the Thai wives, but also the Thai children with a foreign father who are discriminated against by the immigration rules. Children have their own rights, which are also trempled upon.

Very good point... ammunition in favor of keeping families together.

But, unfortunately, this would not be relevent regarding a case for a Thai Female's ability to use her income to be the support of the family.

Remember that all this stems from the explicit targeting of Thai Wives and the 40k Baht Monthly income no longer based on "Combined" income.

But good idea anyway,

CS

The case is different treatment, depending of being a Thai woman or a Thai husband with a foreign spouse. This different treatment affects children in the same way. There right to family live is discriminated upon given the different treatment if they have either a foreign mother or father. If they have a foreign mother no need to worry about the income of 40,000 a month to keep the family together, if they have a foreign father they need to worry and are under strain that living together as a family is not possible.

[ubonjoe]

Note that it aren't only the Thai wives, but also the Thai children with a foreign father who are discriminated against by the immigration rules. Children have their own rights, which are also trempled upon.

Very good point... ammunition in favor of keeping families together.

But, unfortunately, this would not be relevent regarding a case for a Thai Female's ability to use her income to be the support of the family.

Remember that all this stems from the explicit targeting of Thai Wives and the 40k Baht Monthly income no longer based on "Combined" income.

But good idea anyway,

CS

The case is different treatment, depending of being a Thai woman or a Thai husband with a foreign spouse. This different treatment affects children in the same way. There right to family live is discriminated upon given the different treatment if they have either a foreign mother or father. If they have a foreign mother no need to worry about the income of 40,000 a month to keep the family together, if they have a foreign father they need to worry and are under strain that living together as a family is not possible.

The clause needs to be addressed from both sides of the issue including children.

The more problems that can pointed out the better.

All income requirements should be made equal.

A petition could point out all the problems with the marriage to a Thai issue. Including the PR and citizenship issues. You might not win on all of them but the more you show the more attention you might get.

Our wives of course are the ones that have to do this. In fact you could even get the Thai husbands of farang women involved. So we have to think of it from their side. Why couldn't both complain about their spouses not being able to work with out going over all the same hurdles as others that just come here to live and find work. Having to get annual extensions, work permits and etc etc.

Ask for some kind of special PR that can lead to citizenship.

All this could be put in one petition or as at least be used as a rallying point to get more people involved.

Edited December 23, 2008 by ubonjoe

[sabaijai]

All PR permits in Thailand proceed to citizenship, assuming the resident chooses the option to apply for citizenship after the required waiting period.

[barky]

I voted for "support" as I'm not 100% sure my wife would directly "fight". However, depending on how things go and if/when the need arrises I will discuss the issue with her in detail and seek her direct involvement. I do know though, she is an advocate for womens rights generally.

As an aside, there may, in due course, as part of an overall strategy, be a need for a public awarness programme such as a full page advert in a few newspapers, both English and Thai to argue the case, send letters to whoever deemed helpful etc etc.

In other words, get the matter out from under the carpet.

Edited December 23, 2008 by barky

[Mario2008]

There are indeed different issues that need to be adressed:

1. different rules for man and woman (sex-discrimination)

2. the restriction that the income can only be the foreigners and not (in combination with) the Thai wife's income (unnecesarry strain on family live)

The rules regarding PR are in my opinion not unreasonable, except for 2 things:

- different rules for man and woman

- the cost and income requirements

[aromsia]

Note that it aren't only the Thai wives, but also the Thai children with a foreign father who are discriminated against by the immigration rules. Children have their own rights, which are also trempled upon.

I wasn't aware of that. Can you be more specific? What are the different immigration rules for Thai children of foreign fathers? If one is a Thai Citizen, regardless of their surname, immigration dept should have no standing over them as far as I am aware.

EDIT: Forget it - I see what you mean (the kids father needs to earn 40k - got it now)

Edited December 23, 2008 by aromsia

[aromsia]

I voted yes (version 2). However I suspect that this would fail on account of the issues Maestro raised above...and some others.

Do you know if it is possible for a that Thai court even recognize 'class action' suits? Sounds very American. Remember that Thai law operates under a civil code - not common law. A judge or judges can rule any way they like without their reasons held up to scrutiny of previous precedent. You can argue it is unconsitutional of course which seems to be your suggestion - but you know...a Thai Consitution and those who watch over it are ...er...'unpredictable' (or some would say 'predicatable').

Remember this is hiearchacal society - so it is no surprise that a law is clearly designed so richer Thai guys can land the farang 'trophy wife' no-strings-attached, while the farang who marries the Thai woman from Issaan faces roadblocks and hurdles at every turn.

Why would Thai "society" rule in favour of women from Issaan? They just killed off the right for them to choose their own government - you think they're going to now make it easier for them to raise their "luuk-kreung' kids here with all that "independent thought" stuff instilled by their fathers? Who knows where that would lead, eh? Farang-Guanxi!

[ubonjoe]

There are indeed different issues that need to be adressed:

1. different rules for man and woman (sex-discrimination)

2. the restriction that the income can only be the foreigners and not (in combination with) the Thai wife's income (unnecesarry strain on family live)

The rules regarding PR are in my opinion not unreasonable, except for 2 things:

- different rules for man and woman

- the cost and income requirements

All good points mario.

What I was writing about with the PR is a separate one from the one there is now. And could be used in the case of woman married to a Thai. They have to through extensions also.

Now you have to go through 3 years of extensions and then have to wait for about 2 years before you know the answer. I am thinking of something that does not have all the waiting period, tons of documentation, language skills, quota, and etc. plus the high cost. As well as having some special privledges (IE: being able to work).

To get this pushed through you could say it's stressfull for the family having to go through all the annual extensions and etc. It's all the unknowns with the extensions, are they going to change the rules, currency fluctuations cause you not to meet the income requirement by a few baht, bank closes and you loose your savings, loose your job, and etc. that could cause you not to get your annual extension causing more strain on the family. Even having to be in country when your extension is due could be added in. What if you were working outside the country to support your family and your work schedule keeps you from being here when it's due.

It could be for 2 years when first applied for after marriage (unless married already for 2 years). After 2 years it's forever no matter what. This would be to prevent marriages of convenience.

Edit: Why can't the equality issue be that if our wives were married to a Thai would their husband have to go get annual extensions. Or in the case of a Thai man would his wife have to get annual extensions.

Edited December 23, 2008 by ubonjoe

[ubonjoe]

I voted yes (version 2). However I suspect that this would fail on account of the issues Maestro raised above...and some others.

A lot of your questions and comments were covered in the first topic on this.

If you read my most recent posts you will see I mention some points that could possibly get support from Thai men married to farang women or at least get their wives to push them on it.

Thanks for your vote and support.

[CosmicSurfer]

To ALL...

As of this post, there is a Total of 31 Votes... 30 FOR SUPPORT of some Kind and 1 Against Equality of Rights.

BUT...

Out of 30, there are only '2' Wives... listed for direct participation.

Remember, this is an Issue where Thai Wives MUST carry the Ball.. we can only offer support.

If more WIVES don't get directly involved, I'm afraid this issue will just die, and be laughed off.

The First question we will get from any responsible body that we approach for support will be... "How many wives are effected?"

Answering "2", won't get us very much respect.

We NEED more Wives... Please speak to them..

Time to stand up for themselves and be heard,

CS

Edited December 23, 2008 by CosmicSurfer

[ubonjoe]

To ALL...

As of this post, there is a Total of 31 Votes... 30 FOR SUPPORT of some Kind and 1 Against Equality of Rights.

BUT...

Out of 30, there are only '2' Wives... listed for direct participation.

Remember, this is an Issue where Thai Wives MUST carry the Ball.. we can only offer support.

If more WIVES don't get directly involved, I'm afraid this issue will just die, and be laughed off.

The First question we will get from any responsible body that we approach for support will be... "How many wives are effected?"

Answering "2", won't get us very much respect.

We NEED more Wives... Please speak to them..

Time to stand up for themselves and be heard,

CS

It might be the wording. "Add me to your Contact List" Is not there for wife one.

I am one of the two under the wife one. I hesitated before voting because I was not sure which was the best one.

The problem is that we have a lot more votes than posts. And no PM's yet.

I think a lot of husbands will wait and see before commiting to their wives support.

I wonder if a mod could edit the vote section and add the post or PM line. Without wrecking the results.

Maybe like this: Support Thai Wives Equality of Rights. Post a reply. Or PM "ubonjoe" or "CosmicSurfer" with equal as the subject so we can contact you.

Edited December 23, 2008 by ubonjoe

[CosmicSurfer]

To ALL...

As of this post, there is a Total of 31 Votes... 30 FOR SUPPORT of some Kind and 1 Against Equality of Rights.

BUT...

Out of 30, there are only '2' Wives... listed for direct participation.

Remember, this is an Issue where Thai Wives MUST carry the Ball.. we can only offer support.

If more WIVES don't get directly involved, I'm afraid this issue will just die, and be laughed off.

The First question we will get from any responsible body that we approach for support will be... "How many wives are effected?"

Answering "2", won't get us very much respect.

We NEED more Wives... Please speak to them..

Time to stand up for themselves and be heard,

CS

It might be the wording. "Add me to your Contact List" Is not there for wife one.

I am one of the two under the wife one. I hesitated before voting because I was not sure which was the best one.

The problem is that we have a lot more votes than posts. And no PM's to me yet.

No PM's to Me either... and I'm the Other Wife Vote.

I didn't feel that a seperate Wife Contact requirement was necessary, as I would contact all those that Posted and registered their ID by Posting support.

But with only the two of us, we don't have much happening.

If we don't get some more definate Wife participation this idea will die of Neglect... and another chance will be lost.

Time to get off the Sofa Guys!!!! or rather... GALS !!!!!

CS

Edited December 23, 2008 by CosmicSurfer

[Mario2008]

As said, there are also other Thailand forums where one can post, not to mention Thai web forums for more support from Thai woman. And of course the many Thailand forums in other languages, such as French, Spanish etc. A discussion can be started there as well to gain more support.

[ubonjoe]

As said, there are also other Thailand forums where one can post, not to mention Thai web forums for more support from Thai woman. And of course the many Thailand forums in other languages, such as French, Spanish etc. A discussion can be started there as well to gain more support.

It also needs to be posted on more forums on TV. I will do it just give some suggestions on wording and what forums to put it on. I think I will start with the Isaan forum.I am not sure the general forum would be good to much BS goes on there. Edited December 23, 2008 by ubonjoe

[Mario2008]

Just some thoughts on Thailands immigration rules under the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/d_icerd.htm

Article I

1. In this Convention, the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.

2. This Convention shall not apply to distinctions, exclusions, restrictions or preferences made by a State Party to this Convention between citizens and non-citizens.

3. Nothing in this Convention may be interpreted as affecting in any way the legal provisions of States Parties concerning nationality, citizenship or naturalization, provided that such provisions do not discriminate against any particular nationality.

Article 5

In compliance with the fundamental obligations laid down in article 2 of this Convention, States Parties undertake to prohibit and to eliminate racial discrimination in all its forms and to guarantee the right of everyone, without distinction as to race, colour, or national or ethnic origin, to equality before the law, notably in the enjoyment of the following rights:

(......)

(e) Economic, social and cultural rights, in particular:

(i) The rights to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work, to protection against unemployment, to equal pay for equal work, to just and favourable remuneration;

(....)

The International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination doesn't give much openings for a complaint against the immigration rules. Making restriction on aliens isn't against the convention, and rightly so. What can be against the provisions of the convention is the different income requirement to get a work permit, depending on your nationality. This makes it for certain nationals more difficult to provide their family with an income.

We should look at more conventions Thailand is party to.

[egg6447]

Note that it aren't only the Thai wives, but also the Thai children with a foreign father who are discriminated against by the immigration rules. Children have their own rights, which are also trempled upon.

I wasn't aware of that. Can you be more specific? What are the different immigration rules for Thai children of foreign fathers? If one is a Thai Citizen, regardless of their surname, immigration dept should have no standing over them as far as I am aware.

EDIT: Forget it - I see what you mean (the kids father needs to earn 40k - got it now)

well done that man.. i voted to support, and after explaining to my wife, she also agrees.. now what has surprised me is the usal stand of up to you, or not my business. she is quite addament, not sure she ,s 100% offae though. lol. now to address a few nay sayers. for euopeans the life we have has been hard won and continues to this day , that we have to continualy sruggle for what our forfathers stood up for. now for the brits colonial brothers it has all been handed on a plate, well to a large extent, so you old collonials think about that. happy hunting.

[aromsia]

As said, there are also other Thailand forums where one can post, not to mention Thai web forums for more support from Thai woman. And of course the many Thailand forums in other languages, such as French, Spanish etc. A discussion can be started there as well to gain more support.

While I fully sympathise and support this, I really do think you need to do a reality check before you try to continue.

Do you have a patron/matron? As mario2008 points out, without this you have (IMHO) no leverage at all. Again I recall your attention to the recent political events - poor people (i.e. Issaan) are "stupid and shouldn't be allowed to vote" - this is the position of the people who have hijacked the country - and did so with the help of the courts - the same courts who handed down 180 degree rulings in similar cases agains the party now in power. (not criticizing - just pointing out a fact).

Keep your powder dry for a much more important (and imminent) fight is my best advice at present.

[egg6447]

Remember this is hiearchacal society - so it is no surprise that a law is clearly designed so richer Thai guys can land the farang 'trophy wife' no-strings-attached, while the farang who marries the Thai woman from Issaan faces roadblocks and hurdles at every turn.

Why would Thai "society" rule in favour of women from Issaan? They just killed off the right for them to choose their own government - you think they're going to now make it easier for them to raise their "luuk-kreung' kids here with all that "independent thought" stuff instilled by their fathers? Who knows where that would lead, eh? Farang-Guanxi!

so a lot of truth in there mate. but, but, its long over due. no pain no gain. no ruling class is going to give anything to the working class. simple realy. you have to fight for what you get and for what is right.

[aromsia]

egg647

I agree with you 100%

All I am saying is that you (we) need a Thai patron/matron. Taking this to the courts is a waste of time - this ain't America. This is feather-your-nest Thailand. The sooner people learn this, the sooner they'll realise why there are these farang dinosaurs on this Website who are so ultra-right-wing.

Welcome to the Wild West.

[CosmicSurfer]

Just some thoughts on Thailands immigration rules under the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/d_icerd.htm

Article I

1. In this Convention, the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.

2. This Convention shall not apply to distinctions, exclusions, restrictions or preferences made by a State Party to this Convention between citizens and non-citizens.

3. Nothing in this Convention may be interpreted as affecting in any way the legal provisions of States Parties concerning nationality, citizenship or naturalization, provided that such provisions do not discriminate against any particular nationality.

Article 5

In compliance with the fundamental obligations laid down in article 2 of this Convention, States Parties undertake to prohibit and to eliminate racial discrimination in all its forms and to guarantee the right of everyone, without distinction as to race, colour, or national or ethnic origin, to equality before the law, notably in the enjoyment of the following rights:

(......)

(e) Economic, social and cultural rights, in particular:

(i) The rights to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work, to protection against unemployment, to equal pay for equal work, to just and favourable remuneration;

(....)

The International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination doesn't give much openings for a complaint against the immigration rules. Making restriction on aliens isn't against the convention, and rightly so. What can be against the provisions of the convention is the different income requirement to get a work permit, depending on your nationality. This makes it for certain nationals more difficult to provide their family with an income.

We should look at more conventions Thailand is party to.

You shouldn't confuse discrimination directed at our Wives, with Discrimination directed at us.

Whereas in this instance the axe cuts both ways, it is our Wives that have the case... not us.

Article 1, sub-para 2 & 3 don't apply to our wives.

They are not exempt.

CS

[Livinginexile]

A small donation of 1,000 baht each would build one h3ll of a war chest to push this through the courts. You can count me in.

WOW... I thought some people might be receptive to this idea.

Thanks for the support.

I see no reason why this should be considered "Rocking the Boat"...

It's only Thai citizens demanding their constitutional rights.

True it may set an example for the country in how a REAL democracy works, and could even lead to the beginning of real change.

Besides, it seems to me that our ability to live in Thailand is increasingly in jeapordy anyway.

Do we really have anything to lose?

Change is only made reluctantly, and will not be just given up voluntarily, especialy to those who chose not to fight for it.

It has to start somewhere, somehow ... sometime.... So why not Here, Now, With US ????

If we are serious about this, then making a few posts is not enough.

We need to organize.

We need to get Legal advise.

We need to raise money.

If you are worried about posting here, send me a PM.

But also consider that the more support we show here in this thread, the more comfort other Members will have signing on to this idea.

Also think not only about yourself and your wife... think of the others you are helping out here in Thailand by your presence... or you kids... or future kids... Isn't it time they saw how much you love their country, and how willing you are to fight to make this a better place to live for all ??? Or are you willing to give it all up down the road, if you no longer can manage to satisfy the ever changing criteria required by the Immigration Department.

Support your Thai Wife,

(Discussion about whether "Palayia" or "Mia" Farang is more appropriate should be left up to a group discussion....

maybe Another Group name could be ... "Love for my Farang Husband".)

Lets keep this idea alive and make it more Reality than idea.

I Love my Thai Wife,

CS

Count me in...PM me when you get organized

[CosmicSurfer]

Count me in...PM me when you get organized

I will, but please, so we can keep all contacts in one place, add a Vote to this link

> Record Support For Fight For Your Thai Wife's Rights, Post here to support Struggle re Equality to Obtain "O" Extension

Also please add a post of support so we gert your ID.

If Your Wife can get involved please mention that in the Post, and Vote Accordingly.

Thanks,

CS

[CosmicSurfer]

well done that man.. i voted to support, and after explaining to my wife, she also agrees.. now what has surprised me is the usal stand of up to you, or not my business. she is quite addament, not sure she ,s 100% offae though. lol. now to address a few nay sayers. for euopeans the life we have has been hard won and continues to this day , that we have to continualy sruggle for what our forfathers stood up for. now for the brits colonial brothers it has all been handed on a plate, well to a large extent, so you old collonials think about that. happy hunting.

Well done.. great to have you along for the ride.

Now we have 3 Wives... But who's counting ????

More, Please... Lots more !!!!

CS

[CosmicSurfer]

egg647

I agree with you 100%

All I am saying is that you (we) need a Thai patron/matron. Taking this to the courts is a waste of time - this ain't America. This is feather-your-nest Thailand. The sooner people learn this, the sooner they'll realise why there are these farang dinosaurs on this Website who are so ultra-right-wing.

Welcome to the Wild West.

A Thai "Patron/Matron" is possible... but only if we have enough suppport from the primary litigants.. The Wives...

Can you get yours to sign up?

CS

[yamaharr1]

Logistics is the nightmare even if you were lucky enough to get a Thai lawyer who would risk it (perhaps a bored retired law professor ?) and who would not rip you off. Just how much do you think it would cost and how long would it drag on ?

Some simple maths.

If the total cost was 10m baht over 10 years and you had 100 people then it would cost each of them Bt10,000 a year and people would not pay that. Get down to Bt1000 a person and you'd need the support of 1000 people over 10 years. Totally impractical, nevermind the administration charges.

Then you have the very real possibility that they make an example of one person and suddenly he is out of a job or has his visa revoked. What then ? It is not your country and though it would be the wives pushing for change, it would be the individuals who suffer.

The only way I see it could come through would be for a human rights group (and they have more to worry about than this) or a Thai womans group to take it on.

It is wrong but there are some battles you fight and some you walk away from.

And having an negative attitude from the start is no way to win a fight or get some Change....

At this time we have no idea what the cost would be, or how long it would take to acheive some resolution to the problem...

We also have no idea if a lawyer would be willing to take the case, but I am much more optimistic than you are that there are lawyers in this town that are more concerned with Equal rights and having an effective constitution then you may think.

Times in Thailand are beginning tio change.. playing ostrich is no answer to an ongoing problem, and a negative defeatist attitude has no reward, except continued abuse..

If you continue to allow yourself to be bullied, then you will never gain any respect.

Hooking up with a Thai Woman's Rights organization sounds like a great idea.

And again I'm much more optimistic than you about their interest in joining us.

It is in their best interest to join us if we have a winnable case.. any win is a plus for Women's rights.

The more rights that they can claim the more public perception of the importance of Gender Equality is established.

This is a classic Win / Win situation for the women's rights movement.

Don't be defeatist.. be positive.

CS

If I wanted the women to have equal rights I would move back to America and deal with those bitc#s. I bet more than 90% of you left your own country because of the attitude the women in your country had, well what do you think gave them that attitude.

I will pay the additional costs and jump through the additional hoops, no change needed here

[CosmicSurfer]

If I wanted the women to have equal rights I would move back to America and deal with those bitc#s. I bet more than 90% of you left your own country because of the attitude the women in your country had, well what do you think gave them that attitude.

I will pay the additional costs and jump through the additional hoops, no change needed here

Season's Greatings......

And Good Will Towards ALL!

CS

[Mario2008]

You shouldn't confuse discrimination directed at our Wives, with Discrimination directed at us.

Whereas in this instance the axe cuts both ways, it is our Wives that have the case... not us.

Article 1, sub-para 2 & 3 don't apply to our wives.

They are not exempt.

CS

Correct that we shouldn't confuse discrimination agaist our wives with discrimination directed at us.

However it is not true that only our wives have a case, they have a stronger case (also from a political point of view). But their foreign husbands (human) rights are also violated and they do have a case of their own.

Edited December 24, 2008 by Mario2008

[ubonjoe]

No PM's to Me either... and I'm the Other Wife Vote.

Still none. I did a topic on the Isaan forum.

[torrenova]

This is a dead duck. The women with sufficient knowledge to want to get involved to help their husbands know that it is better to lead a quiet life. You'll need one or more of us to be married to a rich HiSo wife with top and I mean top level connections. She would then need the support of her family.