Ex-thai Pm Attempts To Block Govt Led By Opponents

[henryalleman]

Thailand have following wikipedia a flawing democracy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

Personally I can't understand how they can use the word democracy on any country where there are only the individuals/parties to elect who comes from the most wealthy part of the society. In a non democracy they will always will be the best educated and successful business people!

In a democracy all people have the right to the same education and nobody need or can bribe them into better education.

This last line is half right,

they have a RIGHT to an education,

but most PAY for the better one.

All students here have a right to an education too don't they?

If you want a basic education pay for uniforms, but you still go.

But you want into the BIG schools PAY.

Same as Europe or USA,

barring scholarships for the brilliant and lucky.

maybe in the US but not in continental Europe and certainly not in my country where every child regardless gender, religion, origin, social status or nationality has the same rights. Its very normal that a child of a blue color worker go's to a top university. because the government subsidize school and student.

They call it the democratisation of the school system.

Its unbelievable that in Thailand you need to have the Thai Nationality even to attend lower school. This is violation of a basic human right

BTW I like the Laos school uniform system where the girls wear a sarong, they look very lovely.

[henryalleman]

A coup is when a government is over thrown. It has never hap[pend in America. Only a child would say that one person is a party.

I'm going to take this quote away form the Lincoln discussion and apply it to Thailand.

In Western-type democracies, there are political parties that have relatively cohesive ideological platforms. The platforms are fluild, but generally one knows the idealogical and policy leanings of Democrats v Republicans or Conservative/Christian Democrat v Social Democrat and so on.

In Thailand, political parties are simply groups of people that band together because they view it as a way to gain power/help business interests, etc.

The problem with the TRT/PPP/PTP is that it increasingly seemed to be about one Person, and not about any actual long-term policies.

The Democrats? Not sure what they're long-term policies are either. Most of their last platform didn't really differ much from the PPP, particularly regarding social/rural development (which apparently was the reason rural northern/Isaan supported the PPP).

As long as Thai politics are only about People, we are are continuously going to experience these same problems.

Ideology vrs Patronage is the biggest difference between political party systems in the "West" vrs the "East". Which is why applying concepts of "western style" democracy are doomed to fail. Each country needs to find its own way.

Actually the whole experience of the last few months will, I believe, turn out to be a great moment of growth for the country, when we look back on it many years from now.

What does Ideology vs Patronage mean? People of all types and colours have ideals, dreams, beliefs... People of all types and colours try to get power, control, compliance from/over others... Perhaps it was just a poor choice of wording, but I see the whole concept of doing it 'Thaistyle' as a repulsive bag of worms.

Yes, each country has a different history. But, there are stark similarities all over the world; a small ruling group took advantage of a larger seemingly powerless group. In time, the balance was addressed, as the larger group realised that they actually had the power and became, generally, a social democracy where people were considered equal, with equal rights to, jobs, healthcae, education, opportunities, marriage rights... you get the picture.

Thailand is exactly the same, and the people deserve, and will ultimately get, equal rights - democracy, as it's generally termed by many.

PAD are against this idea - 'the poor are too stupid to vote', 'Thailand is not ready for democracy', 'the government should be prodominantly appointed'.

It's basically Ideology vs Ideology.

PAD Ideology - I know better than you, so I WILL decide.

populous Ideology - hang on a minute, we have dreams too, we just want equal chances, we work hard, we have families, why are we not allowed the things you have?

can I conclude that the biggest handicap to take the power out of the hands of the rich and powerful is the lack of an Social- or Christian democratic party European style with their social organizations who cover all the social midfield, in the Thai political arena?

Those parties and their social organizations made it possible that in my country a female production worker of foreign origin could be elected as MP. This woman didn't give up her job on the production line( she still works there part time) to keep in touch with her voters. Maybe the lack of such parties and their social midfield organizations is also the reason that women are almost absent in Thai politics, or is it because Thailand is an Male macho culture that keeps out women in politic.

I really like to know if I stand alone with this idea

[khunjamespittman]

<br />

Is it just me, or does this get more pathetic everyday?

<br /><br /><br />I agree. I think it's disgusting that a mob of anti government protestors should be allowed to hold the country to ransom the way they did. <br />Democracy my a*se! This is no way to behave in a Democratic society. All you yellow shirts should be ashamed of how you have behaved. You behaved like the baby who never got his chocolate!<br />When a government is voted in Democratically then you should abide by this government and accept that your side lost. Next election time you make a better case for your party and try and win.<br />Thank god civilized countries don't behave like this. Western countries like the USA and Great Britain would never behave like this, nor would they allow this to happen.<br />I think I speak for a lot of the democratic countries across the world when I say that we look upon your actions with shame and disgust. There is no glory in the way you have (and are) behaved.<br />

<br /><br /><br />

The elected PM should have an even balancing of votes throughout the entire country - not a majority from the North East and only from the Northeast...it is at this point you have to ask yourself why? is the majority vote coming from the Northeast.

------------------------------------------------------

In the Northeast:

1. Thaksin engaged in propaganda

2. Gave out community loans (nationwide) - essentially buying votes and the will of the people from the beginning of his office, with another side effect of putting more people into debt do to under capitalization. The village heads were responsible for loan distribution - he bought the village heads, because he knew some would be corrupt and try to embezzle the money, as long as the money kept coming in, the more the village heads would push for Thaksins side - you provide loans based on the ability to pay them back, you dont provide loans solely on the basis of breaking even.

3. 30 baht medical scheme country wide - basicly gave out paracetemal, and doesnt cover major illnesses

4. In the Northeast there is the highest majority BUT also the poorest people - to buy votes Thaksin could spend less and make himself look good at the same time.

5. In the Northeast some areas cannot receive TV signals or radio broadcast - Thaksin set up a communications link throughout these regions, to provide propaganda, one voice.....his

6. Provided seeds for crops at discounted prices (nationwide via CP which Thaksin is a major shareholder)- but have been genetically modified to produce only one crop...yes you would now have to buy seeds for every crop... instead of using seeds from your previous crop....think community loan.

------------------------------------------------------------

SO imagine you are a farmer in the Northeast....

You now have:

1. TV and radio - but only Thaksin is showing

2. You can now get micro loans - to do what? ....you live in the country, what are you going to use that money for? what kind of business can you engage in , living in the driest region of the country....oh i know a good time....how about a new radio? yeah now i can hear whats going on in Thailand via Thaksins words.

3. Youre sick and need medical attention , you have been diagnosed with 4th level diabetes - what the 30 baht scheme doesnt cover it?...nope, and the doctor residing at the hospital is a new intern which has recently graduated from med school...not very experienced....but hey they'll give you a paracetamol tablet to ease the pain...but then you soon find you can go to the drug store and buy it for 10 baht instead.

4.You mean you will give me 500-1500 baht to take a free trip to bangkok and give me food too? - I always wanted to go to bangkok and your giving spending money too? but why does this bowl of noodles cost 30 baht when its only 10 baht back in the Northeast?

-----------------------------------------------------------

I dont understand why everyone hates Thaksin, he:

1. gave me TV and radio

2. gave me a loan to have a good time and buy that new radio i always wanted

3. gave me a 30 baht medical scheme incase i get seriously ill (not)

4. gave me money to take a trip

5. gave me seeds at a discount and i can pay for them by the community loan

------------------------------------------------------------

There are things in this world which arent spoken BUT which have alternative meaning....i just feel sorry for the people who arent bright enough to realize...or who dont have the ability to dig deeper to see the truth.

My solution : let the new government take office and dont forget about the poor people because they are the easiest ones to buy, but provide them with legitimate services...this will end the social apartheid

Thaksins move to win the hearts of the Northeastern people was a checkmate from the beginning....and he knew it....keep in mind that not all in the Northeast are farmers...the majority of the Northeast is an arid dry climate, where nothing will grow, not all areas, but most.

The blatant disregard to see the even more serious problem of social apartheid and the destruction of the country on a social level....shows ones true character and their ultimate agenda...themselves.

We are all happy that you are people bright enough to realize... and have an inate ability to dig deeper to see the truth that poor dumb people can't. You would take care of them by thrwing them a few crumbs.

You are somewhat of an egotist aren't you. Sorry that I cannot accept your analysis. It is deeply flawed by reality.

[samgrowth]

Paying elected politician 50 million baht to switch sides and vote for Pueh Thai nominees.

Source?

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/12/14...cs_30090931.php

Happy now? Close enough for your needs? I really hate boring people that are self appointed monitors, that post "source".

LOL. This will shut up a lot of people who say no money exchange hand. MP are getting paid to caste their vote. This is a FACT now.

[samgrowth]

But WHAT THAILAND REALLY NEEDS RIGHT NOW IS PROPER HONEST AND OBSERVED ELECTIONS.

I agree. The Observers should be PAD guards, and no body else.

[Moonrakers]

Bearing in mind that this is a news thread, would there perhaps be any chance that there is some news?

[samgrowth]

Now the Army and Police started to bring people to protect tomorrow voting venue. But they did not stop the PAD from living in Suvarnabhumi. How cute!

TIT. It all depends on who your backers are.

[permanent_disorder]

I don't think so. I must say people nowadays believe in money more than in GOD. so one man one vote is always claimed as a fair reason.. without considering the facts..

Until and unless you discover that money is the root of all good, you ask for your own destruction. When money ceases to be the tool by which men deal with one another, then men become the tools of men. Blood, whips and guns--or dollars. Take your choice--there is no other--and your time is running out.

Ayn Rand

[HelterSkelter]

Is it just me, or does this get more pathetic everyday?

I agree. I think it's disgusting that a mob of anti government protestors should be allowed to hold the country to ransom the way they did.

Democracy my a*se! This is no way to behave in a Democratic society. All you yellow shirts should be ashamed of how you have behaved. You behaved like the baby who never got his chocolate!

When a government is voted in Democratically then you should abide by this government and accept that your side lost. Next election time you make a better case for your party and try and win.

Thank god civilized countries don't behave like this. Western countries like the USA and Great Britain would never behave like this, nor would they allow this to happen.

I think I speak for a lot of the democratic countries across the world when I say that we look upon your actions with shame and disgust. There is no glory in the way you have (and are) behaved.

You missed that TRT AND PPP were dissolved for vote buying???

Civilized countries don't have vote buying, so they don't need the PAD.

Your examples USA and Great Britain say it all. Most Europeans don't see the USA as a democracy. You can only select one of two parties with almost the same ideas. That's an even worse democracy than Thailand.

Poop to To Think about!

Disolved By whom? Two of these (appointed by Whom?) Judges are accused and untried for "Corruption" One for dirty Property deals.

Civilized countries?They have educated and or knowlegeable persons who understand and Respect democratic Law and principles.

USA's last dirty, 'Puppet" ,bought ,regime secret overseen personally by Alexander Macdonald (OSS /CIA op and "Friend" of someone who "Matters") and later replaced by

Agent Senior,Jim Thompson(Thai Silk King)!NAAAA! Air America flying over a decade of missions and millions of tonnes of amunitions,equipment and bombs to VietNam

and more important LAOS.The most Bombed area in History! From WHERE? Who Built them bases and Infrastructure?Golly Guys, ALL the Vets know it (CIA especially!) But have a Hush order to keep thier beer,minge and pension flowing!NOOOO! All this from and in Thailand?

Remember the "Old Moth Ball" Airport they began flying stranded Farangs home from? That's right! One of dozens built by the US used for launching attacks on Viet Nam and the Bombings of Cambodia and Laos!No wonder Peoples of the Region all seem to greatly dislike eachother! But Most Thais don't have a clue about this filthy secret!

Despite Thai Mercinaries on "The Payroll" to Fight with the Mon army in north Laos!(Paid by The White Star Company and Air America!) And of coarse Billions of cash and combined "Aid" went to Some interest somewhere in this Nation.Though I am Too stupid to be privy to such information! Or too smart to say yet.

A note of intrest,The Geneva Convention Strictly prohibits "the use of "Foriegn" troops to solve conflicts on none-ingaged nations soil".

It is Quite sad indeed! Who in the end are the victims? And the REAL culprits (though however indirectly)

FACT undeniable

Thaksin turned this place around and was the first Democratically elected PM to sit a full term and be elected again.

Moreover He was the First Leader to Give Thai people an independant Standing and sense of Pride in the Global Community.

The poor Obtained access to ALL the "Goodies" which only the Elite had for decades before.

He was also no more corrupt than, as stated above, many other politicians Here or abroad.Who pays ALL of thier taxes?

I'm more than sure Most of those living in LOS don't!

PAD most Thais Know are Thugs hired by the Elite.The "Red" shirts Have been thus far Very respectful and peacefull in comparison.I have attended thier rallies(What few there have been!)And nearly ever see faces covered "Vigilanty" style.And NEVER see guns knives or even pokers/sticks being carried!Most of these people are not representing a party,just a Principle,Democracy and the "unplugged" constitution.

We May love our Partnerns,But they may not have the Maturity or Capability to translate ALL of the things transpireing at this time.

This is a Growing democracy living under a pretty large illusion,created ,like a runaway Train,By the Best in the Business(US State Dept, and CIA)!

Edited December 14, 2008 by HelterSkelter

[HelterSkelter]

Paying elected politician 50 million baht to switch sides and vote for Pueh Thai nominees.

Source?

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/12/14...cs_30090931.php

Happy now? Close enough for your needs? I really hate boring people that are self appointed monitors, that post "source".

Oh Yes! Good Reliable Source Sondhi's Newsgroup! Manager!

Shall we all just sit and Watch ASTV TOO?Same Poop Different names!

NO THANKS!

Find some independant source or someone who can translate Thai Rath, or Read some other exterior Press.Straitstimes,BBC anything but the Mouthpiece of the PAD and Aphisit.

Edited December 14, 2008 by HelterSkelter

[rafval]

information is the currency of democracy, and its obvious that no one has any idea whats going on here because it all goes on behind closed doors, its hardly worth talking about, its all whats commonly called gossip

[sriracha john]

Paying elected politician 50 million baht to switch sides and vote for Pueh Thai nominees.

Source?

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/12/14...cs_30090931.php

Happy now? Close enough for your needs? I really hate boring people that are self appointed monitors, that post "source".

Oh Yes! Good Reliable Source Sondhi's Newsgroup! Manager!

Shall we all just sit and Watch ASTV TOO?Same Poop Different names!

NO THANKS!

Find some independant source or someone who can translate Thai Rath, or Read some other exterior Press.Straitstimes,BBC anything but the Mouthpiece of the PAD and Aphisit.

I realize it was some 70 posts ago and you're now just entering the thread, but when the PTP itself is the source, it's hardly disputable....

Paying elected politician 50 million baht to switch sides and vote for Pueh Thai nominees.

Source?

bulls_t news.

I agree it's bullshite that they can offer bribes so openly... but it's true... as for the source... it's from the Puea Thai Party itself in a freely-given admission...

Puea Thai Party plots to turn the tide

The PTP is refusing to throw in the towel, even as the Democrat Party yesterday led its new alliance to Parliament and formally requested a special session of the House to elect a new PM. Key PTP members huddled in a crisis meeting, hatching a plot to bring defecting MPs back into their camp. Under the plan, PTP MPs will team up in twos. They will be instructed by a core member and each pair tasked with convincing one defecting MP to return to the fold, a Party source said. PTP supporters in defecting MPs' constituencies will also put pressure on them to change their minds. Surapong Towijakchaikul, a PTP MP for Chiang Mai, said the meeting also mentioned the figure of two billion baht - money to be spent convincing the defectors to return and support the party in forming a government.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/091208_News/09Dec2008_news04.php

Edited December 14, 2008 by sriracha john

[sriracha john]

Bearing in mind that this is a news thread, would there perhaps be any chance that there is some news?

Not really... there was a big rally with a lot of people, Thaksin was asked not to speak live... he didn't...a blase video was shown instead... the people who went were disappointed... the rally ended... people went home. Essentially, it was just another Thaksin hyped-up event with no substance and no lasting effect. Hot air, if you will.

Anyway, the focus now has completely shifted to the crucial vote today (discussed in another thread).

[permanent_disorder]

Paying elected politician 50 million baht to switch sides and vote for Pueh Thai nominees.

Source?

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/12/14...cs_30090931.php

Happy now? Close enough for your needs? I really hate boring people that are self appointed monitors, that post "source".

why not bring the source in the first place? i really dislike people keep telling something and never bring a source.

MUST READ MPs to be paid Bt50m if they're sick on Monday's PM vote: Suthep read more here

andnow your 'source' telling us something different as you claim. and it's just a payment for the ones who take a "sick leave". it doesn't say it's for the ones who switch sides and vote for others. understand that it is a difference?

and there is still something odd with the source. first: it's The Nation, Bangkok's Independent Newspaper. and The Nations source, who is that? the democrats spokesman Buranat Samuttharak said what the demorats secretary generalSuthep Thuagsuban had said. and who make this payment, why the Dem's don't give any further explanation. why The Nation , Bangkok's Independent Newspaper, don't ask and require some additional information about the Bt50 mill?, before they come up with the fat headline

the article speaks also about the concerns that not all their 'yes men' show up. the story with the Bt50 mill, is just use for group pressure. the Dem's have their faction and internal splinter groups as well. guess not all are happy that the democrats party leader have a fancy with newin. and are now in a conflict with their pure conscience. don't show up would keep their face, but now they would be under the suspicion they had taken some money from somebody. that is maybe just an announcement to keep party discipline.

btw. from the same Democrat spokesman Buranaj Smutharaks we could hear last weekend in the Bangkok Post "Md Buranaj emphasised that the army was not involved in any process and the party has held to its values of not doing anything unlawful, unconstitutional or otherwise inappropriate in a democratic system." and that it is untrue "that the army had a hand in setting up the new coalition government"

meanwhile a future coalition partner of the democrats, ex Chart Thai leader Somsak Prissananantakul , could not so straight lie an told an other story to the Post "Mr Somsak said he did not join the meeting between Democrat secretary-general Suthep Thuagsuban and national army chief Anupong Paojinda to discuss the political direction on Saturday."

so the Dem's secretary general had a meeting with the national armychief shortly before they announced their plans that a Dem will new PM with calition support. no, no Army involved, not doing anything inappropriate in a democratic system. for sure, you have to believe those Dem's. and party spokesmen are the most honest men in the political biz.

but going back to your article.

it reports that MPs from the other team a very concerned about "that strong men who look like soldiers are stalking them." and they maybe are targets for abduction to prevent them from voting for their favorite. isn't that likewise strange or reason to be concerned, maybe quality stuff enough to get The Nation, , Bangkok's Independent Newspaper, HOT flash flash stamp. why The Nation, Bangkok's Independent Newspaper, doesn't have a teaser like this:

URGENT Apiwan: Pheu Thai MPs are targetted for abduction to undermine their party's votes. read more here.

wouldn't that be also a cool headliner? assumed that you are an independent newspaper that reports and informs the reader and the public without bias - according to all the other information given in the article, it would be worth to be a headline too, or not? Bt50 mill by whoever or an abduction of MPs, a "large number" of MPs that complain they have some army style Stalker on their back. is not scarry enough? har, har you have to love The Nation, Bangkok's Independent Newspaper.

but there you go with your "source" it's The Nation, Bangkok's Independent Newspaper. and their questionable news you distorted even more and added some more fantasies.

it's simple, if people wouldn't trash talk here, non-stop, gossip from the sauna , rumours from the beach bar and so on -then there would be less questions for the source.

Edited December 14, 2008 by permanent_disorder

[johnboy72]

Recommend the reds n yellows take over sukumvit at each end for a final showdown.... Last person standing kind of thing..

Stick the oldies at the front as cannon fodder. Will make cracking T.V.

Mum Jokmok can be official judicator, Tata Young doing the running commentary.

Even russle up a few t-shirts. Make a couple of baht, help the already cocked up economy.

[wayfarer108]

Thaksin failed again.

[TAWP]

The handsome Ab- is not qualified to be PM. He didn't join the Army.

Wow ! Breaking News (not).

That will be a surprise to his sponsors, then !!

He was a draft dodger and he was not born in Thailand.

Democracy is nice, but lets start with fair trials for suspected drug dealers, politicians that arent above the law or change the law to suit their personal interests, and speech free enough that you can talk about those in power without facing expensive court proceedings or your media outlet being closed down.

Agreed - with one alteration: Complete freedom of speech.

Democracy or not would be second hand if the rights of the individuals and the people would be absolute and protected by a strong constitution.

[Gianni77]

Jakrapob says Abhisit lacks leadership

BANGKOK: -- Former PM's Office minister Jakrapob Penkain Saturday criticised Democrat Party leader Abhisit Vejjajiva as lacking no leadership and was under influence of others.

Speaking to the demonstrators at the National Stadium, Jakrapob said when Abhisit looked at himself in a mirror, he did not see himself but he saw other persons instead.

Jakrapob said Abhisit sometimes saw Democrat secretary-general Suthep Thaugsuban, sometimes Sondhi Limthongkul, a co-leader of the People's Alliance for Democracy, sometimes former army chief Gen Sonthi Boonyaratkul and sometimes Newin Chidchob.

"Abhisit has no identity in democracy so how could he be the prime minister under the democratic system?" Jakrapob said.

-- The Nation 2008-12-13

Hahaha... that's a good one... and his guy doen't look at himself in the mirror and see Taksin? or Taksin-ish

Thai politics can be really funny, who write their speeches? Groucho Marx? Jerry Lewis? or maybe Russell Peters the king of stereotypes?

[Vato]

We are all happy that you are people bright enough to realize... and have an inate ability to dig deeper to see the truth that poor dumb people can't. You would take care of them by thrwing them a few crumbs.<br /><br />You are somewhat of an egotist aren't you. Sorry that I cannot accept your analysis. It is deeply flawed by reality.<br /><br />[/b]

typical reply from a thaksin supporter that cannot support facts to back up their argument....so uses name calling and derogatory remarks instead....along with bending of words into something else from the original statement, to make the original statement appear derogatory.

i clearly stated the gov should provide the Northeast with legitimate services

i clearly stated the ability to dig deeper is hindered by lack of media

my analysis is not flawed, check the repayment history for the community loan scheme and see where it stands, and then you check finance institutions to see how many automobiles have been repossessed since the scheme took effect especially in the Northeast.

then you check what medical services are covered by the 30 baht medical scheme.

then you check about the seeds that can only yield one crop and who provided them

then you check what thaksins weekly radio address was all about...especially for the 'special areas' of coverage.

like i said, provide 'legitimate' services for the northeast....

and yes....if you are not bright enough to realize what thaksin's agenda is...then i do feel sorry for you because you will always be influenced by someone who will think for you and by what they give you.

ps...is it not odd that the redshirt camp gets bussed in every now and then and only from the Northeast, but do not have the dedication as the yellow shirts to 'stay' in Bangkok and fight for what they believe in?

hel_l theres not even a dedicated red shirt team in bangkok, that has a show of force on a constant basis.

Edited December 15, 2008 by Vato

[Koo82]

So you are saying that the Thailand Army

is not filled with Thai people???

So what? Of course all Thais here. Why do you like to stick to me that much? What is your point?

Thais are fighting now, not foreigners.

I voted and will vote for Khun Thaksin's parties always. They're a lot cleaner than the handsome Ab-.

[rayw]

Thailand have following wikipedia a flawing democracy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

Personally I can’t understand how they can use the word democracy on any country where there are only the individuals/parties to elect who comes from the most wealthy part of the society. In a non democracy they will always will be the best educated and successful business people!

In a democracy all people have the right to the same education and nobody need or can bribe them into better education.

This last line is half right,

they have a RIGHT to an education,

but most PAY for the better one.

All students here have a right to an education too don't they?

If you want a basic education pay for uniforms, but you still go.

But you want into the BIG schools PAY.

Same as Europe or USA,

barring scholarships for the brilliant and lucky.

Just seen this post and although indeed true it is so very very wrong. High education should be ONLY about the ability of the child/student to benefit from it NOT how rich or self sacrificing their parents are as that is grossly unfair and immoral and needs stopping. I cannot see how anyone can disagree that a bright intelligent and capable child from a poor family should get high education he/she deserves as easily as am equally capable rich kid. We end up just educating mostly rich kids who very often have not the brain power to benefit or even deserve high level education, and we get folk like G W Bush and many like him, i.e. inept incapable morons in key positions whilst many highly intelligent capable kids from poor families get poor education and are left behind. This is so grossly wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong and always will be, cannot think of a single valid unselfish argument against that. IMHO all countries should ban private education and supply the best state run schooling and universities possible and then insist only those proved capable (by exams, IQ testing AND school work) receive such higher education no matter what their background and kids from very poor families given financial help so their parents do not have to insist they go out to work in a mundane job well beneath their capabilities, a loss to them and to the country. No problem with adult education being private but not for kids and young graduates who have only their parents standing or generosity to give them any chance in their adult life.

Education AND Health should be the most socialist aspect of all countries as these commodities should NOT be for buying but equally and fairly state supplied for us all.

[tig28]

Is it just me, or does this get more pathetic everyday?

I agree. I think it's disgusting that a mob of anti government protestors should be allowed to hold the country to ransom the way they did.

Democracy my a*se! This is no way to behave in a Democratic society. All you yellow shirts should be ashamed of how you have behaved. You behaved like the baby who never got his chocolate!

When a government is voted in Democratically then you should abide by this government and accept that your side lost. Next election time you make a better case for your party and try and win.

Thank god civilized countries don't behave like this. Western countries like the USA and Great Britain would never behave like this, nor would they allow this to happen.

I think I speak for a lot of the democratic countries across the world when I say that we look upon your actions with shame and disgust. There is no glory in the way you have (and are) behaved.

Would agree WHEN the Thai Government IS elected in democratically. The last election like those before it was yet another farce and an insult to democracy with vote buying and rigging so I cannot see how anyone can honestly recognise them as being fairly and honestly elected by the people. As I keep keep saying you wont have democracy here with so many corrupt bully boy type school children holding so much power and not until anew election is properly monitored and observed by the UN or similar external international recognised body. When the incumbent Government is seen to be in power by rigged elections and vote buying (vote buying is a fact not fiction) then of course there is little alternative to what the PAD did to get things moving, and so far it worked whether or not you believe in what PAD stand for is irrelevant for the moment. We urgently need here new proper democratic and monitored elections ASAP so we have a Government that all democratically free thinking folk can accept, whichever party get elected they then can be recognised as an elected Government and should be able to serve their term as long as you do not get corrupt bastards like Thaksin caught feathering his own nest like the selfish criminal he is.

Its a shame that the same old inaccuracies keep being recycled ----- But the continuing claims that "vote buying" invalidated the outcome of the election is not supported by the facts. If you care to check the results of the by-elections held under strict EC supervision in all areas where candidates from 3 parties were "carded" by the EC for such practices---you will find that most of the "carded" candidates were confirmed and reelected---- therefore it is apparent that "vote buying" did not "pervert" the outcome as is continually claimed by yourself and your friends.

Needless to say any and all forms of corruption are one of the MAJOR and very real problems damaging this country. One can but hope that the seemingly universal acceptance of corruption can be corrected ---- for the benefit of Thailand.

[TAWP]

Is it just me, or does this get more pathetic everyday?

I agree. I think it's disgusting that a mob of anti government protestors should be allowed to hold the country to ransom the way they did.

Democracy my a*se! This is no way to behave in a Democratic society. All you yellow shirts should be ashamed of how you have behaved. You behaved like the baby who never got his chocolate!

When a government is voted in Democratically then you should abide by this government and accept that your side lost. Next election time you make a better case for your party and try and win.

Thank god civilized countries don't behave like this. Western countries like the USA and Great Britain would never behave like this, nor would they allow this to happen.

I think I speak for a lot of the democratic countries across the world when I say that we look upon your actions with shame and disgust. There is no glory in the way you have (and are) behaved.

Would agree WHEN the Thai Government IS elected in democratically. The last election like those before it was yet another farce and an insult to democracy with vote buying and rigging so I cannot see how anyone can honestly recognise them as being fairly and honestly elected by the people. As I keep keep saying you wont have democracy here with so many corrupt bully boy type school children holding so much power and not until anew election is properly monitored and observed by the UN or similar external international recognised body. When the incumbent Government is seen to be in power by rigged elections and vote buying (vote buying is a fact not fiction) then of course there is little alternative to what the PAD did to get things moving, and so far it worked whether or not you believe in what PAD stand for is irrelevant for the moment. We urgently need here new proper democratic and monitored elections ASAP so we have a Government that all democratically free thinking folk can accept, whichever party get elected they then can be recognised as an elected Government and should be able to serve their term as long as you do not get corrupt bastards like Thaksin caught feathering his own nest like the selfish criminal he is.

Its a shame that the same old inaccuracies keep being recycled ----- But the continuing claims that "vote buying" invalidated the outcome of the election is not supported by the facts. If you care to check the results of the by-elections held under strict EC supervision in all areas where candidates from 3 parties were "carded" by the EC for such practices---you will find that most of the "carded" candidates were confirmed and reelected---- therefore it is apparent that "vote buying" did not "pervert" the outcome as is continually claimed by yourself and your friends.

Needless to say any and all forms of corruption are one of the MAJOR and very real problems damaging this country. One can but hope that the seemingly universal acceptance of corruption can be corrected ---- for the benefit of Thailand.

So you are claiming that vote-buying, even when it happens, has no outcome on the results? So why are the doing it then?

A person from the same party being re-elected in a second election due to dismissal of vote fraud of the winning candidate (and others) in the first isn't a sign of no effect from vote-buying. Perhaps it's just a sign of 'loyal sellers'.

[rayw]

<br />

Is it just me, or does this get more pathetic everyday?

<br /><br /><br />I agree. I think it's disgusting that a mob of anti government protestors should be allowed to hold the country to ransom the way they did. <br />Democracy my a*se! This is no way to behave in a Democratic society. All you yellow shirts should be ashamed of how you have behaved. You behaved like the baby who never got his chocolate!<br />When a government is voted in Democratically then you should abide by this government and accept that your side lost. Next election time you make a better case for your party and try and win.<br />Thank god civilized countries don't behave like this. Western countries like the USA and Great Britain would never behave like this, nor would they allow this to happen.<br />I think I speak for a lot of the democratic countries across the world when I say that we look upon your actions with shame and disgust. There is no glory in the way you have (and are) behaved.<br />

<br /><br /><br />

The elected PM should have an even balancing of votes throughout the entire country - not a majority from the North East and only from the Northeast...it is at this point you have to ask yourself why? is the majority vote coming from the Northeast.

------------------------------------------------------

In the Northeast:

1. Thaksin engaged in propaganda

2. Gave out community loans (nationwide) - essentially buying votes and the will of the people from the beginning of his office, with another side effect of putting more people into debt do to under capitalization. The village heads were responsible for loan distribution - he bought the village heads, because he knew some would be corrupt and try to embezzle the money, as long as the money kept coming in, the more the village heads would push for Thaksins side - you provide loans based on the ability to pay them back, you dont provide loans solely on the basis of breaking even.

3. 30 baht medical scheme country wide - basicly gave out paracetemal, and doesnt cover major illnesses

4. In the Northeast there is the highest majority BUT also the poorest people - to buy votes Thaksin could spend less and make himself look good at the same time.

5. In the Northeast some areas cannot receive TV signals or radio broadcast - Thaksin set up a communications link throughout these regions, to provide propaganda, one voice.....his

6. Provided seeds for crops at discounted prices (nationwide via CP which Thaksin is a major shareholder)- but have been genetically modified to produce only one crop...yes you would now have to buy seeds for every crop... instead of using seeds from your previous crop....think community loan.

------------------------------------------------------------

SO imagine you are a farmer in the Northeast....

You now have:

1. TV and radio - but only Thaksin is showing

2. You can now get micro loans - to do what? ....you live in the country, what are you going to use that money for? what kind of business can you engage in , living in the driest region of the country....oh i know a good time....how about a new radio? yeah now i can hear whats going on in Thailand via Thaksins words.

3. Youre sick and need medical attention , you have been diagnosed with 4th level diabetes - what the 30 baht scheme doesnt cover it?...nope, and the doctor residing at the hospital is a new intern which has recently graduated from med school...not very experienced....but hey they'll give you a paracetamol tablet to ease the pain...but then you soon find you can go to the drug store and buy it for 10 baht instead.

4.You mean you will give me 500-1500 baht to take a free trip to bangkok and give me food too? - I always wanted to go to bangkok and your giving spending money too? but why does this bowl of noodles cost 30 baht when its only 10 baht back in the Northeast?

-----------------------------------------------------------

I dont understand why everyone hates Thaksin, he:

1. gave me TV and radio

2. gave me a loan to have a good time and buy that new radio i always wanted

3. gave me a 30 baht medical scheme incase i get seriously ill (not)

4. gave me money to take a trip

5. gave me seeds at a discount and i can pay for them by the community loan

------------------------------------------------------------

There are things in this world which arent spoken BUT which have alternative meaning....i just feel sorry for the people who arent bright enough to realize...or who dont have the ability to dig deeper to see the truth.

My solution : let the new government take office and dont forget about the poor people because they are the easiest ones to buy, but provide them with legitimate services...this will end the social apartheid

Thaksins move to win the hearts of the Northeastern people was a checkmate from the beginning....and he knew it....keep in mind that not all in the Northeast are farmers...the majority of the Northeast is an arid dry climate, where nothing will grow, not all areas, but most.

The blatant disregard to see the even more serious problem of social apartheid and the destruction of the country on a social level....shows ones true character and their ultimate agenda...themselves.

BRILLIANT POST, thanks for taking the time and effort to compile it. This needs broadcasting to the Issan folk on the now Thaksin free Radio and TV channels All that is fact and cannot be disputed. Only thing that does not seem quite right is that a lot of the Northeast I know of is far from arid and usually gets more annual rainfall than down here in the lower north of Thailand like BKK and Chonburi/Rayong. Sure they get a long dry season as we all do that do not live in the south. Oh one other thing many used their loans to buy taxi and similar small businesses in BKK to try and make a go of it, but now it is pay back time and some may find that tough. What these folk need is a controlled and honest grant (funded with some of the tax that Thaksin and his cronies fraudulently did not pay) with guidance and help given if you genuinely want to help these folk. Certainly not a loan with interest to wickedly buy their loyalty and leaving many in serious debt as few of them are knowledgeable enough (hardly surprising given their disgusting lack of state provided education) to know how to manage their finances to cope with it. Thaksin was a c*nt who exploited the poor and we should ALL want to see the back of him and his type for ever.

Edited December 15, 2008 by rayw

[rayw]

Is it just me, or does this get more pathetic everyday?

I agree. I think it's disgusting that a mob of anti government protestors should be allowed to hold the country to ransom the way they did.

Democracy my a*se! This is no way to behave in a Democratic society. All you yellow shirts should be ashamed of how you have behaved. You behaved like the baby who never got his chocolate!

When a government is voted in Democratically then you should abide by this government and accept that your side lost. Next election time you make a better case for your party and try and win.

Thank god civilized countries don't behave like this. Western countries like the USA and Great Britain would never behave like this, nor would they allow this to happen.

I think I speak for a lot of the democratic countries across the world when I say that we look upon your actions with shame and disgust. There is no glory in the way you have (and are) behaved.

Would agree WHEN the Thai Government IS elected in democratically. The last election like those before it was yet another farce and an insult to democracy with vote buying and rigging so I cannot see how anyone can honestly recognise them as being fairly and honestly elected by the people. As I keep keep saying you wont have democracy here with so many corrupt bully boy type school children holding so much power and not until anew election is properly monitored and observed by the UN or similar external international recognised body. When the incumbent Government is seen to be in power by rigged elections and vote buying (vote buying is a fact not fiction) then of course there is little alternative to what the PAD did to get things moving, and so far it worked whether or not you believe in what PAD stand for is irrelevant for the moment. We urgently need here new proper democratic and monitored elections ASAP so we have a Government that all democratically free thinking folk can accept, whichever party get elected they then can be recognised as an elected Government and should be able to serve their term as long as you do not get corrupt bastards like Thaksin caught feathering his own nest like the selfish criminal he is.

Its a shame that the same old inaccuracies keep being recycled ----- But the continuing claims that "vote buying" invalidated the outcome of the election is not supported by the facts. If you care to check the results of the by-elections held under strict EC supervision in all areas where candidates from 3 parties were "carded" by the EC for such practices---you will find that most of the "carded" candidates were confirmed and reelected---- therefore it is apparent that "vote buying" did not "pervert" the outcome as is continually claimed by yourself and your friends.

Needless to say any and all forms of corruption are one of the MAJOR and very real problems damaging this country. One can but hope that the seemingly universal acceptance of corruption can be corrected ---- for the benefit of Thailand.

ANY vote buying ALWAYS perverts the outcome of an election and invalidates its result, not up for debate as that has to be FACT, vote buying is ALWAYS indefensible in a democratic society which I hope Thailand is or soon will fully become. The last Thai election was thus flawed NO MATTER WHICH SIDE won it. Thailand needs new externally observed elections ASAP, even though we now seem to have some hope with a new and what appears to be a decent PM ( we wait and see on that score but looks hopeful at least)

[Bangyai]

Thaksin denounces former coalition partners as betrayers of people

NOW! Enrage the Brown Shirts, uh, red shi... heck, little difference,

with low brow rhetoric and send them screaming to the old backer's homes.

Maybe terror in the night will change hearts and calculations

that money couldn't buy out right. But HEY! It's ALL for the people right?

Elba! Oh where for art thou Elba!

Hmmmm....I think you'll find that Napoleon escaped from Elba ( to face his Waterloo ) . Knowing you, perhaps you might prefer St Helena where he died in exile and to add insult to injury, someone cut his dinkle doo off and soaked it in vinegar to preserve it. Not that you would wish that on Thaksin.....a bit OTT.

Unless ?? ..... there used to be a girl called Elba who plied her trade from Thermaes ? Surely you're not looking for her ? She'd be getting on a bit now too

[toret]

Isn't it funny how the western far right Bush-junkies suddenly stand up and talk for the poor farmers and cheap loans and government-backed medical service when it comes to talking about the Thaksin years?

[tig28]

Is it just me, or does this get more pathetic everyday?

I agree. I think it's disgusting that a mob of anti government protestors should be allowed to hold the country to ransom the way they did.

Democracy my a*se! This is no way to behave in a Democratic society. All you yellow shirts should be ashamed of how you have behaved. You behaved like the baby who never got his chocolate!

When a government is voted in Democratically then you should abide by this government and accept that your side lost. Next election time you make a better case for your party and try and win.

Thank god civilized countries don't behave like this. Western countries like the USA and Great Britain would never behave like this, nor would they allow this to happen.

I think I speak for a lot of the democratic countries across the world when I say that we look upon your actions with shame and disgust. There is no glory in the way you have (and are) behaved.

Would agree WHEN the Thai Government IS elected in democratically. The last election like those before it was yet another farce and an insult to democracy with vote buying and rigging so I cannot see how anyone can honestly recognise them as being fairly and honestly elected by the people. As I keep keep saying you wont have democracy here with so many corrupt bully boy type school children holding so much power and not until anew election is properly monitored and observed by the UN or similar external international recognised body. When the incumbent Government is seen to be in power by rigged elections and vote buying (vote buying is a fact not fiction) then of course there is little alternative to what the PAD did to get things moving, and so far it worked whether or not you believe in what PAD stand for is irrelevant for the moment. We urgently need here new proper democratic and monitored elections ASAP so we have a Government that all democratically free thinking folk can accept, whichever party get elected they then can be recognised as an elected Government and should be able to serve their term as long as you do not get corrupt bastards like Thaksin caught feathering his own nest like the selfish criminal he is.

Its a shame that the same old inaccuracies keep being recycled ----- But the continuing claims that "vote buying" invalidated the outcome of the election is not supported by the facts. If you care to check the results of the by-elections held under strict EC supervision in all areas where candidates from 3 parties were "carded" by the EC for such practices---you will find that most of the "carded" candidates were confirmed and reelected---- therefore it is apparent that "vote buying" did not "pervert" the outcome as is continually claimed by yourself and your friends.

Needless to say any and all forms of corruption are one of the MAJOR and very real problems damaging this country. One can but hope that the seemingly universal acceptance of corruption can be corrected ---- for the benefit of Thailand.

So you are claiming that vote-buying, even when it happens, has no outcome on the results? So why are the doing it then?

A person from the same party being re-elected in a second election due to dismissal of vote fraud of the winning candidate (and others) in the first isn't a sign of no effect from vote-buying. Perhaps it's just a sign of 'loyal sellers'.

Hi TAWP

Well.... the fact that the results did not alter in the closely supervised by-elections certainly seems to show precisely that. I know you used the term 'loyal sellers' with a little irony & I agree this is more than a little implausible.

If your question "So why are the doing it then?" is genuine .... I ask you to look at the by-election results of La-ong Tiyapairat -- In the Chiang Rai election - it did, after all, involve the conviction of her brother Yongyuth Tiyapairat ..The genius Yongyuth was caught on video in a "sting operation" paying 10 officials money prior to the election -- this ,in turn, resulted in the dissolution of the PPP.

RESULT (97%) of BY ELECTION:

People Power Party (PPP) Ms La-ong Tiyapairat----- 69,561 votes

Democrat candidate Kittipong Namwong -- 19,314 votes.

In this high profile case of corruption your question "So why are the doing it then?" becomes an extremely good question indeed ! It is pretty obvious that in one of the strongest PPP electorates where they actually won by 70,000 votes to 20,000 votes -- that the payment of monies was was certainly not for the purpose of altering the outcome in any manner. In this electorate there has never been the slightest doubt about the outcome !

I'm pretty sure that after the s**t hit the fan that others within his party were asking our hero that self same question. Why...why...why...why did you do it ??

So to answer your question-- in this particular case--- the only thing that is 100% certain is that it WAS NOT to alter the election outcome!!

But I suspect that your image of "vote buying" revolves more around 100 / 200Bt being paid directly to the voters in the depths of the north or Isaan.

Those who think the intelligent and hard working people of the north or Isaan are so stupid as to actually "sell their vote" for 200 Bt. simply do not understand the people of those regions!! Most of these same rural people would give you 200Bt. if you were in need & asked for it!! Apart from the necessities to live --- money is just not that important . Some posters seem to imagine for some reason that 200Bt. magically becomes an incredibly large amount of money --- just because the region is a bit less wealthy than elsewhere in Thailand --- in these minds 200Bt becomes a kings ransom. They are are deluded. Its about the value of 2Kg of beef or pork and in rural villages --- that is not much at all.

Would you "sell your vote" for about the equivalent of one days laborers pay ??? NO --- I would not --- you would not --- and I assure you that the people of the north and north east are just as smart as you and I.

Before the USUAL SUSPECTS go right off their brain --- I want to confirm one claim --- money is paid by the political parties to every voter they can locate---

But TAWP --- no voter "sells" his/her vote ----- they vote for whichever candidate they prefer. The money cannot change their vote. By the way ---those paying the voter neither request nor expect that the payment shall alter the vote. That is not the purpose of paying the money to the ordinary voter!

Incidentally --- lets pretend that it were--- you pay me to vote for you---I agree and then go off to cast my secret vote. I can detect a problem here --- can you??

TAWP --- this is the primary reason that the results of the by-elections are not different to the previous contaminated results.

Please note:

Any and all forms of corruption -- including that involved in elections -- are one of the MAJOR and very real problems damaging this country. One can but hope that the seemingly universal acceptance of corruption at all levels can be corrected ---- for the benefit of Thailand.

[frodo]

Last minute pleas that couldn't save Thaksin

As Abhisit Vejjajiva's favourite football team, Newcastle, was playing their match of the season so far Sunday night, Thaksin Shinawatra couldn't care less about the fact that the football club he just sold, Manchester City, was languishing right above the relegation zone.

The former prime ministerturnedfugitive was glued to hectic political developments in Thailand and said to be busy making some heartbreaking phone calls to his home country.

"He was begging many people 'Please save me. Please save my life'," one source claimed.

source: http://nationmultimedia.com/2008/12/15/hea...es_30091077.php

Sounds like the voices of the past from Thaksin's war on drugs and other murderous actions committed. Let him beg for his life as thousands of others had to do before they were shot or suffocated with zero sympathy from Thaksin's government. What a drama queen.

[khunjamespittman]

We are all happy that you are people bright enough to realize... and have an inate ability to dig deeper to see the truth that poor dumb people can't. You would take care of them by thrwing them a few crumbs.<br /><br />You are somewhat of an egotist aren't you. Sorry that I cannot accept your analysis. It is deeply flawed by reality.<br /><br />[/b]

typical reply from a thaksin supporter that cannot support facts to back up their argument....so uses name calling and derogatory remarks instead....along with bending of words into something else from the original statement, to make the original statement appear derogatory.

i clearly stated the gov should provide the Northeast with legitimate services

i clearly stated the ability to dig deeper is hindered by lack of media

my analysis is not flawed, check the repayment history for the community loan scheme and see where it stands, and then you check finance institutions to see how many automobiles have been repossessed since the scheme took effect especially in the Northeast.

then you check what medical services are covered by the 30 baht medical scheme.

then you check about the seeds that can only yield one crop and who provided them

then you check what thaksins weekly radio address was all about...especially for the 'special areas' of coverage.

like i said, provide 'legitimate' services for the northeast....

and yes....if you are not bright enough to realize what thaksin's agenda is...then i do feel sorry for you because you will always be influenced by someone who will think for you and by what they give you.

ps...is it not odd that the redshirt camp gets bussed in every now and then and only from the Northeast, but do not have the dedication as the yellow shirts to 'stay' in Bangkok and fight for what they believe in?

hel_l theres not even a dedicated red shirt team in bangkok, that has a show of force on a constant basis.

I believe that the Northeast is still part of Thailand. I believe that the Thailand Constitution provides for the participation of "ALL" Thai citizens, not just those that agree with you to participate in the electoral process. It is good that the people from the Northeast choose not to allow a bunch of egotistical jerks to dominate them and hijack their government.

The people have spoken. Now lets give them winners of the election show how they plan to make Thailand a better place. They earned that opportunity to show what they can do. They don't need rabble-rousers like you trying to dictate what they should do.

Best Wishes to the newly elected government. I hope they will be successful for all Thais.