How Do Expatriates Fit In In Chiang Mai?

[Mapguy]

I don't know quite how to start this off, but I hope that it is somehow relevant to expatriates of all sorts except very short-term tourists. I gather there are now about 18,000 resident expatriates in Chiang Mai. My characterizations of expatriates given below can certainly be improved upon, but what I hope that posters will really respond to are questions like these: How do expatriates of different types fit in? And with whom among Thais? My fundamental concern is about assimilation and the impact of the diverse expatriate community upon Chiang Mai.

To breakdown the expatriate community a bit, a big group of expatriates are "senior citizens" who are making Thailand home. It is also home for others who are still making a living but might not end up here.

Another residential group is more seasonal. They go back and forth to the "home country." Another group consists of long-term transients who settle in for a bit, but move on when they run out of cash or get bored. Some work here. Call them the "Seeing the World" group. They are probably younger, but not always.

Then, regardless of age, there are obnoxious people who land here perhaps because they benefit from the remarkable tolerance of Thailand for just about anyone. No need to get into details.

So, how are people fitting in? How accepting and tolerant are Thais in Chiang Mai --- or should they be --- of the "invasion?" And other such questions.

[Theyreallrubbish]

I don't know quite how to start this off, but I hope that it is somehow relevant to expatriates of all sorts except very short-term tourists. I gather there are now about 18,000 resident expatriates in Chiang Mai. My characterizations of expatriates given below can certainly be improved upon, but what I hope that posters will really respond to are questions like these: How do expatriates of different types fit in? And with whom among Thais? My fundamental concern is about assimilation and the impact of the diverse expatriate community upon Chiang Mai.

To breakdown the expatriate community a bit, a big group of expatriates are "senior citizens" who are making Thailand home. It is also home for others who are still making a living but might not end up here.

Another residential group is more seasonal. They go back and forth to the "home country." Another group consists of long-term transients who settle in for a bit, but move on when they run out of cash or get bored. Some work here. Call them the "Seeing the World" group. They are probably younger, but not always.

Then, regardless of age, there are obnoxious people who land here perhaps because they benefit from the remarkable tolerance of Thailand for just about anyone. No need to get into details.

So, how are people fitting in? How accepting and tolerant are Thais in Chiang Mai --- or should they be --- of the "invasion?" And other such questions.

18,000 expats in a city of 250,000? Are you sure about that number?

[Rasseru]

I am not at all certain that meaningful answers to your questions are even possible, but I would point out that I think the countries and cultures of origin of the ex-pats living here are very important in this context. By way of example, ten thousand English ex-pats living here, for example, would, I should think, have very different effects on the community from ten thousand Japanese or Chinese ex-pats living here. And so on. If you agree, then it would seem that the issue of the nationalities of the ex-pats living here should be taken into consideration, along with the other factors you mention.

Edited December 14, 2008 by Rasseru

[Mapguy]

The figure 18,000 is the best I can come up with. The commonly accepted estimate on Americans alone is 5 - 7500. It is hard to pin down such numbers for a variety of reasons. The simplest is that all Americans don't register with the consulate.

As well, the population of Chiang Mai is also hard to nail down. The city probably isn't 250,000, or near that, regardless of uncounted numbers of unregistered often undocumented workers (and expatriates, for that matter). The metropolitan area is probably something like 250,000. The province is, of course, much more populated.

I hope this thread doesn't get stuck on discussing how many people live in Chiang Mai. Is that fair enough?

[Mapguy]

I am not at all certain that meaningful answers to your questions are even possible, but I would point out that I think the countries and cultures of origin of the ex-pats living here are very important in this context. By way of example, ten thousand English ex-pats living here, for example, would, I should think, have very different effects on the community from ten thousand Japanese or Chinese ex-pats living here. And so on. If you agree, then it would seem that the issue of the nationalities of the ex-pats living here should be taken into consideration, along with the other factors you mention.

Good points. Could be. What's your experience?

[SomNamNah]

bloody great experience. never had any trouble in 2 years here. never fallen out with any thai, the only intended influence i can think of having, is trying to teach some road manners, unfortunately, and to my shame, often with the middle finger. I did today however shake my fist, rather than give the bird- at a car that pulled out in front of me while i was doing 100kmph on the bike. i think the fist shake might be less offensive?, im sure if i keep flipping the bird, consequences may arise. cant think of anythng else. CM/north thailand people are just great.

how many places on earth can you walk into a house, lie down on the recliner, smile at the people in the house, and read your book for 20 mins while the fan chats away, and shares some food... only to find out after you have left, that the fan got the wrong house , and had never met the occupants.

Edited December 14, 2008 by SomNamNah

[john b good]

I don't know quite how to start this off, but I hope that it is somehow relevant to expatriates of all sorts except very short-term tourists. I gather there are now about 18,000 resident expatriates in Chiang Mai. My characterizations of expatriates given below can certainly be improved upon, but what I hope that posters will really respond to are questions like these: How do expatriates of different types fit in? And with whom among Thais? My fundamental concern is about assimilation and the impact of the diverse expatriate community upon Chiang Mai.

To breakdown the expatriate community a bit, a big group of expatriates are "senior citizens" who are making Thailand home. It is also home for others who are still making a living but might not end up here.

Another residential group is more seasonal. They go back and forth to the "home country." Another group consists of long-term transients who settle in for a bit, but move on when they run out of cash or get bored. Some work here. Call them the "Seeing the World" group. They are probably younger, but not always.

Then, regardless of age, there are obnoxious people who land here perhaps because they benefit from the remarkable tolerance of Thailand for just about anyone. No need to get into details.

So, how are people fitting in? How accepting and tolerant are Thais in Chiang Mai --- or should they be --- of the "invasion?" And other such questions.

18,000 expats in a city of 250,000? Are you sure about that number?

On the issue of Chiangmai's population, a quote from Wikipedia "while officially the city (thesaban nakhon) of Chiang Mai only covers most parts of the Mueang Chiang Mai district with a population of 150,000 the urban sprawl of the city now extends into several neighboring districts. This Chiang Mai Metropolitan Area has a population of nearly 1 million people, more than half the total of Chiang Mai Province" the figure of 18,000 might be a conservative one.

I would not be surprised if the figure was more than 25,000

Then one must determine what a "resident expat" is.

Is he/she the person who lives in Chiangmai 365/pa, as many do, or does it include the long term visitor (and then what determines "long term")

There are too many variables to be taken into consideration.

Maybe a poll would provide the basis to see it more clearly (I am not savvy enough to set up a poll though)

Edited December 15, 2008 by john b good

[SamSipEt]

I don't know quite how to start this off, but I hope that it is somehow relevant to expatriates of all sorts except very short-term tourists. I gather there are now about 18,000 resident expatriates in Chiang Mai. My characterizations of expatriates given below can certainly be improved upon, but what I hope that posters will really respond to are questions like these: How do expatriates of different types fit in? And with whom among Thais? My fundamental concern is about assimilation and the impact of the diverse expatriate community upon Chiang Mai.

To breakdown the expatriate community a bit, a big group of expatriates are "senior citizens" who are making Thailand home. It is also home for others who are still making a living but might not end up here.

Another residential group is more seasonal. They go back and forth to the "home country." Another group consists of long-term transients who settle in for a bit, but move on when they run out of cash or get bored. Some work here. Call them the "Seeing the World" group. They are probably younger, but not always.

Then, regardless of age, there are obnoxious people who land here perhaps because they benefit from the remarkable tolerance of Thailand for just about anyone. No need to get into details.

So, how are people fitting in? How accepting and tolerant are Thais in Chiang Mai --- or should they be --- of the "invasion?" And other such questions.

It's my home and I love it here.

[elektrified]

The figure 18,000 is the best I can come up with. The commonly accepted estimate on Americans alone is 5 - 7500. It is hard to pin down such numbers for a variety of reasons. The simplest is that all Americans don't register with the consulate.

As well, the population of Chiang Mai is also hard to nail down. The city probably isn't 250,000, or near that, regardless of uncounted numbers of unregistered often undocumented workers (and expatriates, for that matter). The metropolitan area is probably something like 250,000. The province is, of course, much more populated.

I hope this thread doesn't get stuck on discussing how many people live in Chiang Mai. Is that fair enough?

I can't think of a single reason to register with the consulate. My country's government sticks their nose into everything we do, i.e. where we go, where we've been, where we bank, what we do with our money, who we call, fax, email, etc.... all under the auspices of "terrorism" and "homeland security" via the U.S. Patriot Act. I'd be curious as to how many American ex-pats here actually register with the consulate and for what reason.

I find the Thais in Chiang Mai to be extremely accepting and tolerant of the ex-pats. I can only speak for myself and those that I know here of course. Then I don't go around making problems for anyone and I treat them with the same respect and kindness they show me.

From what I have read, the figure of 250,000 is many years out of date. The population is probably much larger.

[tigerbeer]

I think most expats live here cause they like looking at and being with Thai birds.

[Ulysses G.]

Of course.

[Ajarn]

I think most expats live here cause they like looking at and being with Thai birds.

I appreciate their great civility, especially when compared to many farangs here.

[Rasseru]

I think most expats live here cause they like looking at and being with Thai birds.

Do you have any sense of what the breakdown is on that majority, between farang men and farang women?

[Rasseru]

I am not at all certain that meaningful answers to your questions are even possible, but I would point out that I think the countries and cultures of origin of the ex-pats living here are very important in this context. By way of example, ten thousand English ex-pats living here, for example, would, I should think, have very different effects on the community from ten thousand Japanese or Chinese ex-pats living here. And so on. If you agree, then it would seem that the issue of the nationalities of the ex-pats living here should be taken into consideration, along with the other factors you mention.

Good points. Could be. What's your experience?

My experience is that there are ex-pats in Chiangmai from many countries in the world, but it does not extend to giving me any sense of what their numbers are, either in total or by country.

[SoloFlyer]

socks and sandals.

[john b good]

I think most expats live here cause they like looking at and being with Thai birds.

You speak for yourself TB

[Theyreallrubbish]

I don't know quite how to start this off, but I hope that it is somehow relevant to expatriates of all sorts except very short-term tourists. I gather there are now about 18,000 resident expatriates in Chiang Mai. My characterizations of expatriates given below can certainly be improved upon, but what I hope that posters will really respond to are questions like these: How do expatriates of different types fit in? And with whom among Thais? My fundamental concern is about assimilation and the impact of the diverse expatriate community upon Chiang Mai.

To breakdown the expatriate community a bit, a big group of expatriates are "senior citizens" who are making Thailand home. It is also home for others who are still making a living but might not end up here.

Another residential group is more seasonal. They go back and forth to the "home country." Another group consists of long-term transients who settle in for a bit, but move on when they run out of cash or get bored. Some work here. Call them the "Seeing the World" group. They are probably younger, but not always.

Then, regardless of age, there are obnoxious people who land here perhaps because they benefit from the remarkable tolerance of Thailand for just about anyone. No need to get into details.

So, how are people fitting in? How accepting and tolerant are Thais in Chiang Mai --- or should they be --- of the "invasion?" And other such questions.

18,000 expats in a city of 250,000? Are you sure about that number?

On the issue of Chiangmai's population, a quote from Wikipedia "while officially the city (thesaban nakhon) of Chiang Mai only covers most parts of the Mueang Chiang Mai district with a population of 150,000 the urban sprawl of the city now extends into several neighboring districts. This Chiang Mai Metropolitan Area has a population of nearly 1 million people, more than half the total of Chiang Mai Province" the figure of 18,000 might be a conservative one.

I would not be surprised if the figure was more than 25,000

Then one must determine what a "resident expat" is.

Is he/she the person who lives in Chiangmai 365/pa, as many do, or does it include the long term visitor (and then what determines "long term")

There are too many variables to be taken into consideration.

Maybe a poll would provide the basis to see it more clearly (I am not savvy enough to set up a poll though)

My thinking on this is that if the numbers are anywhere close to those posted then that means that including tourists that more than one in ten people in the city is foreign.

This is the kind of level that would normally start to produce resentment among the native population.

So either the Thais are more tolerant than the Brits, French etc, or there aren't as many expats as that or there are more Thais.

I don't drive around Chiang Mai and see in 1 in ten non-Thai faces, even in the tourist areas.

[Priceless]

According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiang_Mai_Metropolitan_Area) Amphur Muang has just under 250,000 inhabitants, and the "metropolitan area" (which includes e.g. Lamphun) has about 960,000. This would make Mapguy's figure of 18,000 sound more reasonable. I would, however, like to know where he got it from.

/ Priceless

[Bill97]

My fundamental concern is about assimilation and the impact of the diverse expatriate community upon Chiang Mai.

Why are you concerned about this?

[Mapguy]

According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiang_Mai_Metropolitan_Area) Amphur Muang has just under 250,000 inhabitants, and the "metropolitan area" (which includes e.g. Lamphun) has about 960,000. This would make Mapguy's figure of 18,000 sound more reasonable. I would, however, like to know where he got it from.

/ Priceless

If memory serves me well, I believe that the 18,000 figure is an estimate given by the new chief of immigration in Chiang Mai (who is interested in tracking down the ones he doesn't know about). The 5,000 - 7,500 estimate on the number of Americans comes from US consular staff. The population figures themselves are really tough to nail down because of the high number of unregistered workers in the general area, some transient and some settled in.

Assuming it reasonable to say that there has been a sizeable increase in the number of farang (including a fairly large influx of Japanese and Korean communities), I am really trying to focus on their impact on Chiang Mai, how they "fit in," and attitudes of natives of Chiang Mai toward them and toward the change that they bring with them.

[SomNamNah]

A sad tale from the Fan's immediate family. Her cousin 35? works as a labourer, famer worker etc. His father was an officer so i guess you could say middle class... He is poor as is the norm outside CM.

Thsi guy - 35 - had a beautiful girlfriend maybe 26? from near one of the seaside resorts... They had a child together, but the mother of the girlfriend basically broke them up because she wants the girl to get a rich farang. (It wont be difficult for her). It was this or excommunication. So now the little girl for last 2 years (now 3) has been growing up with a relation up here near CM. He works away on building sites etc.

The farang impact of keeping a girl on a support salary from abroad must be huge, i know of at least 3 women- not hookers, who have met farang via websites and are being supported from abroad. Just yesterday one of them met a farang via a website, who proceeded to try and get her back into his hotel room on the first date. Makes me sick. (and no - he didnt get to sow his oats)

The women know there are decent ones out there (usually the ones wanting to retire here, and have a peaceful life).

I even know a Thai guy who carries a baton with him every day for 2 years, in case he meets the german farang who stole away his wife.

I wonder what is going to happen now that the farang countries and Japan are starting to feel the pinch. The giving away of monthly salaries to poor thai women can only lead to disaster surely?

Personally i have prepared as much as i can for my departure one day from Thailand. Set the fan up in a small business, bought assests that can be sold/pawned easily, and generally tried to line her up for a future that doesnt involve getting mixed up in the guys that play on the girls via websites. But hey, im only 35, maybe when im 50 i will think differently. So far so good, i put the cash into the business, and she doesnt ask for money - she works for it!

The effect of these 'wealthy' tourists has to be huge, many women here turn their noses up at teachers!! getting 30k+ a month! thats 3 or 4 times what they need to keep a shiny car and new designers clothes on their backs! Christ, accountants get 12,000 ish! and Thai teachers only 8-10,000?

Having said all that, a beautiful thai woman friend of my fans has just walked in.. she has a 1.5 mill condo, paid for by her thai "friend" in the govt.

Edited December 15, 2008 by SomNamNah

[PeaceBlondie]

Mapguy, I doubt the exact numbers matter. Assimilation matters. Yet farang (white, European descent) cannot assimilate into Thai culture.

At least here on ThaiVisa, I am not aware of expatriate Chinese, Koreans, Japanese, etc., except for one poster's lovely wife. The expats fit in, partly. I doubt we can quantify it.

To answer your last questions, I formerly 'fit in' as a farang English teacher, slightly, by playing my role. I have a partner and fit in wiith his family, without language communication with the family.

[chiangmaibruce]

In terms of the scope for potential impact ... I think perhaps an even more significant variable than nationality, is the %age who are married to Thais (and within that group, the percentage married to CNX locals). Although only a generalisation, my gut feeling is that those married to Thais tend to enjoy quite a different Thailand experience, and one aspect of this is probably a lower level of impact on the local thais.

I myself don't notice significant social impact, other than providing a source of low-key local interest/entertainment, but then I'm the village farang here A little further afield, most of the farang around this area appear to be fairly cool and not at all 'in-your-face' ... decent ThaiVisa kind of people I'd say

Just consulted with my other half about the topic of this thread and she reckons that while farang are simply living here then the impact will be minimal, but should significant numbers of farang operate businesses then the impact will be greater, mainly in terms of employees (due to cultural differences they can't avoid) but perhaps also on a broader scale (being seen as taking business from thais - rather than bringing it to them)

[cnxmike]

In the case that the number of 18,000 foreign (farang) expats is correct. Then it's quite implausible that 7500 of them are Americans. By far the largest group of farang expats here are British nationals.

Edited December 15, 2008 by cnxmike

[richard10365]

I think some people are looking at it from the wrong perspective. Whether I live in Thailand or the USA, my life is my life and why should I really be concerned about fitting in to someone else's idea of society. There is a point to where I want to fit in. Just waving hello to my neighbors on the way to and from school or the common courtesy between two people when I buy something such as food or other items needed to live. Other than that, what else is there?

I think, if your worried about fitting in here, then chances are you would worry about fitting in, in your own country as well.

My advice, stop worrying and enjoy the experience.

[sassienie]

I live with my Thai wife and daughter in a very small village 50 kilometres outside the main city.

I purchased the land from a neighbour and another neighbour built my house.

In my area middle-aged and elderly Thai people mainly populate it. Have an English friend who lives 3 minutes away from me. We are the only 2 farangs living in this area.

My Thai language skills are very limited, plus many of the locals speak in local dialects, so communication is difficult.

I mix in with the locals as one of the lads so to speak and all call me by my actual name rather than as, the Farang. Everyone is used to me and although I was quite a curiosity when I first moved here, these days most hardly give me a second glance when I’m out.

I never interfere in or try to influence people’s life styles here or make attempts to impose my values onto the locals. I dress normally, don’t boast or try to prove that I am a big shot.

Most times I keep myself to myself but do attend local funerals, weddings, and local events.

Although always aware that I am still the Farang living in the village, this does have an effect of making my presence here more interesting for the locals and sometimes just out of curiosity the locals invite me over for drinks just to see what I am really like and seem quite surprised when they see that I’m just a normal guy with ways not too different from them.

Never had any problems with my neighbours and each of us hold a mutual respect for each other.

Edited December 15, 2008 by sassienie

[adjan jb]

I'm living in a hamlet 20 km south of CM. I'm the only "obnoxious" (as you put it) farang in the area. There are some other farangs in neighbouring villages but, as far as I know, not of the obnoxious kind. Maybe some of your friends. That said, it seems that we all enjoy being there. But nothing really matters.

Obnoxious in Amphur Saraphi.

[tampasailor]

bloody great experience. never had any trouble in 2 years here. never fallen out with any thai, the only intended influence i can think of having, is trying to teach some road manners, unfortunately, and to my shame, often with the middle finger. I did today however shake my fist, rather than give the bird- at a car that pulled out in front of me while i was doing 100kmph on the bike. i think the fist shake might be less offensive?, im sure if i keep flipping the bird, consequences may arise. cant think of anythng else. CM/north thailand people are just great.

how many places on earth can you walk into a house, lie down on the recliner, smile at the people in the house, and read your book for 20 mins while the fan chats away, and shares some food... only to find out after you have left, that the fan got the wrong house , and had never met the occupants.

Was it a black SUV with windows blacked out? Those drivers, who ever they are, are totally in-considerate and may be ex-pats as I do not know Thai's who care to drive like that. Maybe a chauffer for a Mafia Don? Verrieee Scarieee on the road if you have a motorbike. To much emotion trying to recover from almost certain loss of life to rember to flip a bird :-(