Abhisit Vejjajiva Elected New Prime Minister Of Thailand

[permanent_disorder]

DP>> Everything you link is the Truth, handed down from God, anything someone else from the opposite view links is the work of the Devil.

Must be nice when everything is so clear cut.

you should tell this the member PLUS. and also the sam moon conspiracy believer. not me.

and yeah, i give The Times and the BBC more credit as some letter to the editor in the nation.

other free lance journalists like nick nostritz or people like professor Giles got heavy bashing for not being pro PAD. same as the international media and news papers of the record. i didn't hear there your protest to have a view without bias. and i never claim those sources speak the final truth.

childish words and infantile black and white views a la good/God vs. evil/Devil that is PAD propaganda.

auntie andrew d. and his proxie nicks have been good for some gossip entertainment on TV forum. i think is sad that they got banned. but there must have been a reason. he wrote some sore loser comment after that in his blog.

and in the same category i would put his letter to the nation and his bbc& times bashing. words of a sore loser. not evil, but funny and entertaining, but nothing more.

be real, with andrew drummond you can not make winning points.

Happy Chanukah!

[cmsally]

I went through Suvarnabhumi twice this week.

Not a single visible sign of ANY disturbance from two weeks ago.

It was as if it never happened.

Yes, and.....?

LaoPo

and remember the claims, at the time, that it would take at least two weeks, simply to re-open Swampy ? Pure spin, which failed to acknowledge the frequent remarkable ability of Thai people, to get something up-and-running (in some fashion) far more quickly than most foreign-observers would expect.

the information that it would take at least two weaks came from the AOT chief.

i don't know if that was all pure spin and in my opinion the claims and concerns aren't so pointless at all. at least not ignorant and careless like other voices to the subject, full of dewy-eyed optimism.

Most people in the aviation industry said 2 weeks for it to open. So presumably being open in less, meant corners were cut.

I would imagine it had less to do with the remarkable ability of Thai people than the ability to ignore normal checklists and safety concerns.

[jdinasia]

any evidence to support the claim that our safety is at risk because "the ability to ignore normal checklists and safety concerns" is a reality and not just bias or scaremongering, cmsally?

[Ulysses G.]

How about common sense? How long have you lived here anyway?

[TAWP]

How about common sense? How long have you lived here anyway?

If you have lived here for a while you should know that your 'common sense' doesn't apply. In both directions.

[cmsally]

Well 2 friends who are both international pilots said it would take at least 2 weeks to open ( and they would want to see at least 2 weeks of checks before they flew in) and also another friend who works in the aviation industry ( can't remember his exact job description but he has to check various aspects of airlines and their planes).

These are just casual conversations with airline friends, you are welcome to add to these views.

[grandpops]

More scorn for the new government just been on BBC and Al Jazeera. I know I will take flack for watching news outlets other than ASTV but thats me, I saw these reports in the last 10 minutes.

Corrupt career politicians in the cabinet, a mate from school (I know Thakisn invented cronyism, but did they have to do this so blatently at the first attempt!) and Please somebody check,

Al Jazeera said the commerce minister was the manageress of a massage parlour. I'll get googling as just watched it.

They were astounded that the foreign minister is still supporting the action of the PAD idiots at the airport. Going to bode well is that for their credibility that is.

Sorry TAWP and JD, but you need a new angle. When you or your party are in power, you support them and explain policies. You guys are so used to being in opposition that you cannot get beyong the sniping and cheap shots posts yet.

Come on guys. Get with the plan. Plenty of time for smart knee jerk remarks when the Dems are back in opposition.... or banned.

Sorry that SteveUK and CM sally should make such detailed considered posts and have these know nothings stick their PAD tag team one liners on the end. Nice that they (steve and sally) manage to rise above them.

( ) Space left for PAD apologists to post hilarious riposte! Can you fill that guys!

Edited December 22, 2008 by grandpops

[Steve2UK]

And all of this as published in a newspaper of a country where MP's are appointed by the king, A country where there is no real freedom of religion, A country where some ethnic groups don't have the same rights as the others. A country where women can't married a man from another religion. A country where a man get a 15 year jail sentence because he converted himself to a different faith.

They better comment the injustices in their own country, oops sorry can(t do because there is no freedom of the press also, some foreign magazines are even forbidden.

Shame on them to have the audacity to point the finger to another country.

Oh Henry! Looks like another trip to Canossa for you.........

Malaysia is a federal constitutional elective monarchy. It is nominally headed by the Paramount Ruler or Yang di-Pertuan Agong, commonly referred to as the King of Malaysia. Yang di-Pertuan Agong are selected for five-year terms from among the nine Sultans of the Malay states; the other four states, which have titular Governors, do not participate in the selection. The king also is the leader of the Islamic faith in Malaysia. The system of government in Malaysia is closely modeled on that of Westminster parliamentary system, a legacy of British colonial rule.

The bicameral Parliament consists of the Senate (Dewan Negara) and the House of Representatives (Dewan Rakyat). All seventy Senate members sit for three-year terms (to a maximum of two terms); twenty-six are elected by the thirteen state assemblies, and forty-four are appointed by the king based on the advice of the Prime Minister. The 222 members of the Dewan Rakyat are elected from single-member districts by universal adult suffrage. Parliament has a maximum mandate of five years by law. The king may dissolve parliament at any time and usually does so upon the advice of the Prime Minister.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Malaysia

Plenty that I don't like about the Malaysian situation, too - but none of it has anything to do with that article. You condemn the country and have nothing to say about the article?

Thanks for the info, I did made an mistake about the MP's

but;

All seventy Senate members sit for three-year terms (to a maximum of two terms); twenty-six are elected by the thirteen state assemblies, and forty-four are appointed by the king on the advice of the Prime Minister.

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2008/03/03/mala...enied-fair-vote

I can't call this democratic.

And am I wrong about this also?

A country where there is no real freedom of religion,

http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=37973

http://www.speroforum.com/site/article.asp?id=1334

http://www.asianews.it/view.php?l=en&art=4169

A country where women can't married a man from another religion.

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/religionreport/st...006/1673632.htm

And there are so much more human rights abuses, just ask the Chinese and Hindu minorities in Malaysia

That's why Malayan newspaper should expose there own Human rights violation before the comment some other countries.

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2005/05/16/mala...fall-prey-abuse

Well, to answer the questions about personal freedoms in Malaysia - no, I think (in general) you're not wrong. You could also have added the laws against homosexual acts. Largely rather different from Thailand. I'm also inclined to think that there are real limits to press freedom in Malaysia - whether through commercial pressure or government pressure e.g. the widely-criticised Internal Security Act (http://www.hrdc.net/sahrdc/hrfeatures/HRF70.htm). I can imagine that the writer of this article would face arrest and prolonged detention without trial if he wrote about an equivalent situation in his own country - so it's hardly reasonable to suggest that nothing can be written about events in another country until everything has been written about events in one's own country.

Regarding whether the appointment of a majority of the Malaysian senators can be called democratic (as in one person one vote - universal suffrage) - no it isn't........ certainly not compared to, say, the US senate. It also looks a bit less democratic than the Thai senate system (76 elected + 74 selected) but more so than the UK House of Lords, for example.

But none of that takes away from the validity of the article as written.

[jdinasia]

How about common sense? How long have you lived here anyway?

The common sense that says that the systems and computers etc were never compromised? That folks didn't run rampant through the airports etc?

A broom and some floor cleaner was about all it took to clean the inside of the buildings

Sally --- your friends must have thought that more happened than ever did, wouldn't you agree?

[Ulysses G.]

As to his having some axe to grind against the BBC or The Times or the ThaiVisa forum.......... I don't know and so I can't comment. Do you have a link to his blog? I couldn't find it on his website.

He talks a bunch of sheet about sabaijai on his blog; I DON'T LIKE HIM!

[animatic]

I went through Suvarnabhumi twice this week.

Not a single visible sign of ANY disturbance from two weeks ago.

It was as if it never happened.

Yes, and.....?

LaoPo

and remember the claims, at the time, that it would take at least two weeks, simply to re-open Swampy ? Pure spin, which failed to acknowledge the frequent remarkable ability of Thai people, to get something up-and-running (in some fashion) far more quickly than most foreign-observers would expect.

the information that it would take at least two weaks came from the AOT chief.

i don't know if that was all pure spin and in my opinion the claims and concerns aren't so pointless at all. at least not ignorant and careless like other voices to the subject, full of dewy-eyed optimism.

Most people in the aviation industry said 2 weeks for it to open. So presumably being open in less, meant corners were cut.

I would imagine it had less to do with the remarkable ability of Thai people than the ability to ignore normal checklists and safety concerns.

I saw professional security.

Everything was clean and well ordered.

Speed was as good or better than last trip.

I miss the two food courts on the upper level,

but they were gone before the incident.

Staff were at the normal level and I sensed nothing amiss.

This has nothing to do with optimism or spin, just pure observation.

I suspect many of the 2 weeks comments were based on

expectations of much greater damage, that didn't occur.

Not that it wasn't reasonable to assume that it would occur.

I did see lots of passengers also, but likely not as much as a

mad weekend before Christmas rush.

Nothing editorial here just reporting what I saw going in and coming out.

Swampy as usual, and better than the opening year by far.

[Thai at Heart]

I came through there 10 days ago. Left via Utapao and I have to applaud Thai airways for getting anything organised at all at short notice as they did.

It was much quieter than usual, and I was able to change my reservation on Thai from Friday to Saturday with absolutely no problem. The flight from London was probably 80% full which for 2 weeks before Xmas can't be a good sign.

[sriracha john]

UDD protester released on Bt90,000 bail

A United Front of Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD) protester, who committed violent acts during the rally in front of the Parliament on December 15, 2008, has been released on bail today (December 22).

The Court has approved the defendant's appeal lodged by UDD supporter Sompob Promjinda to bail out Chokechai Kamlue by paying a 90,000-baht bail in cash with no conditions.

Following the victory by Democrat Party Leader Abhisit Vejjajiva in the prime minister voting session at the Parliament on December 15, the agonized 25-year-old UDD member was apprehended after stoning a Democrat MP's automobile.

- ThaiNews / 2008-12-22

[jdinasia]

UDD protester released on Bt90,000 bail

A United Front of Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD) protester, who committed violent acts during the rally in front of the Parliament on December 15, 2008, has been released on bail today (December 22).

The Court has approved the defendant's appeal lodged by UDD supporter Sompob Promjinda to bail out Chokechai Kamlue by paying a 90,000-baht bail in cash with no conditions.

Following the victory by Democrat Party Leader Abhisit Vejjajiva in the prime minister voting session at the Parliament on December 15, the agonized 25-year-old UDD member was apprehended after stoning a Democrat MP's automobile.

- ThaiNews / 2008-12-22

he agonized 25-year-old UDD member was apprehended

I assume he was agonized because he got caught?

[sriracha john]

Red-shirt Group in Northeast to Close off Parliament on Policy Declaration Day

Members of the red-shirt group in Udon Thani province declared their support for the Leader of the Puea Pandin Party as Prime Minister and held a casket-burning ceremony for the current PM.

The group also announced that they will lead members of the red-shirt group in closing off Parliament on the day the new government declares its policy to pressure the government into returning power to the people.

On 97.5 FM, the red-shirt group in Tumbon Mak-keang of Udon Thani province and the leader of the group, Kwanchai Sarakam, read its declaration on their stance and their actions against the new government.

The declaration states that the group will act politically and remain faithful to the nation, religion, and the monarchy, while resisting the silent coup of the elites, powerful military groups, and all kinds of political sectors with the aim of taking power from the people.

Kwanchai said that, last night, Police General Pracha Promnok, Leader of the Puea Pandin Party, called him and thanked members of his group for their support.

Kwanchai insisted that the group will continue to support Police General Pracha and will give him a warm welcome if he comes to Udon Thani.

Moreover, Kwanchai said the group and more than 10,000 red-shirt supporters nationwide will rally at Sanam Luang this Sunday before heading to Parliament to pressure the government against the declaration of its policies, as they want the government to give power back to the people by dissolving the House of Representatives.

After reading their declaration, the group burned a casket and also torched an effigy of the PM, while shouting insults and cheering before they dispersed.

- TOC / 2008-12-22

[LaoPo]

Interesting letter in today's Nation from Andrew Drummond, about conspiracy theories, western media coverage, Abhist, and PAD's occupation of the airport.

PM is not an elitist but quite down to earth

During the recent troubles the western media saw a conspiracy in every broom cupboard. Merely because sections of society, army, monarchy, 'elitists' may or may not like the PPP or Thaksin Shinawatra, there were considerable unsubstantiated claims as to the level of their involvement.

ANDREW DRUMMOND

BANGKOK

You are not serious are you, Sabaijai ?

Surely, a (nice guy no doubt) freelance journalist who writes a letter to The Nation -acting as a serious correspondent- who writes at the same time articles, like: "Ladyboys beg tourists to return - Evening Standard” has to be taken with a large grain of salt, wouldn't you agree ?

Another "nice" article by his pen is "Jingle Bells unheard in Thailand until Santa shops child abuser"

Really. ..not exactly the kind of serious journalism that is to be applauded or the one Thailand needs right now.

LaoPo

[sriracha john]

Relatives fighting for barred MPs' seats

29 seats up for grabs in by-elections on January 11 in North, Central, Isaan

Disqualified lawmakers have endorsed relatives and allies to run in the 29 by-elections that seek to fill House seats made vacant when 13 People Power Party MPs and 16 Chart Thai Party MPs were banned from holding office.

Yesterday was the first day of candidacy registration for the January 11 by-elections. The PTP will try to defend PPP strongholds while Chart Thai Pattana Party will seek to retain seats previously held by the Chart Thai Party.

With the Democrat-led coalition commanding a narrow majority of 235 seats to the opposition's 198 seats, it is widely expected the by-elections will be a key battle for the political numbers.

The government's trump card is the Friends of Newin faction, which is expected to counter some of the popularity of PTP. The faction has been credited for PPP's electoral victory in the Northeast, but now wants to turn the table on its former allies.

In Suphanburi, political patriarch Banharn Silapa-Archa, of the disbanded Chart Thai Party, gave his blessing to three Chart Thai Pattana Party candidates.

The three are Chanchai Prasertsuwan, who is the younger brother of disqualified MP Nattawut, Patcharee Pothasuthon, who is the older sister of banned MP Yuthana, and Jeraja Thiangtham, who is the younger brother of banned MP Jongchai.

In Sisaket, Sakulthip Angkhasakulkiart will contest under the Chart Thai Pattana Party banner to fill the House seat vacated by her son, Siriphong. Her campaign slogan is "Fight for my son."

For the House seat from Lopburi, disqualified MP Kamol Jiraphanphanit has endorsed his daughter, Mallika, to replace him under the Chart Thai Pattana Party banner.

In Angthong, Chart Thai Party veteran Somsak Prissanananthakul has given the blessing to his son, Pakin, to fill the House seat under the Chart Thai Pattana Party banner.

In Ubon Ratchathani, two banned MPs, Rathakit Phaliphat and Sakchai Chintawej, want their loved ones to inherit their House seats under the Chart Thai Pattana Party banner. Rathakit has endorsed his brother-in-law, Pinij Chaithani, and Sakchai has supported his wife, Udon, as a new candidate.

- The Nation / 2008-12-23

Edited December 22, 2008 by sriracha john

[sriracha john]

PTP MP Police Lieutenant-Colonel (don't confuse with Thaksin) SOMCHAI PETPRASERT

Chalerm tipped to be Opposition Leader

The Pheu Thai Party (PTP) will this evening hold a preliminary meeting to nominate the Opposition Leader, MP Somchai Paetprasert said on Friday.

Somchai said the majority of his Party's lawmakers want MP Chalerm Yoobamrung to Lead the Opposition.

- The Nation / 2008-12-19

Another kick in the pants for the families of all those murdered and terrorised by the Yoobamrung sons. And PPP/PTP have the gall to say they are for the people.

*they've been spared... for now...but the question then becomes, Who?.... Sanoh has already said he doesn't want it*

Chalerm says he will not accept post of Opposition Leader

Former Public Health Minister Chalerm Yoobamrung said Monday that he will not accept the post of the Opposition Leader.

Chalerm, a PTP MP, said other PTP MPs are more qualified for the post and are more senior than him.

Chalem said he believed Pracharaj Party Leader Sanoh Thienthong was more qualified for the post.

- The Nation / 2008-12-22

Edited December 22, 2008 by sriracha john

[Plus]

I'm not sure why you didn't follow what IMO is normal forum practice and reply quoting my post # 983 (page 40) given that

a] I raised a number of specific points - so it would be easier for other readers to follow the discussion if you had included my post in your response

b] There have been a large number of other postings on different tangents in between my post and your response.

Because the only point I remembered and wanted to specifically address from that post was "devil in details". These posts tend to grow exponentially if we address each and every point.

"The peasantry is gradually disappearing, but very slowly and imperfectly....

The political figures who exploited the resulting situation were the local political bosses which emerged from the 1970s onwards, and became the dominant element of the political system in the 1990s. The rural and informal population were not active participants in democratic politics, but were available as passive recipients of political goods. A pyramid of informal organizations developed upwards: in the locality, the phak phuak or clique, which could turn out voters; above that, the electoral alliance; then the faction of MPs; finally, the governing coalition. Up this pyramid flowed the aggregated support needed for success in representative politics. Downwards in reciprocation flowed various political goods such as budget allocations, informal political patronage, Protection, and cash in the form of vote-buying. The pyramid remained very non-institutionalized – essentially as informal as its social base. Over two Decades, the people at the base became used to their role as clients for patronage from a big boss figure linked to the pyramid."

..

In case you rush to dismiss her as a Thaksin apologist, I'll also include the following extract from her conclusion:

I absolutely concure with these two extracts.

What she wrote here is a damning description of geographical representation system, maybe it's not clear from her description, but this patronage pyramid is a real bane of Thai politics, taking over what was meant to be a democracy.

Today in the paper there's a list of eight names scheduled to run in by-elections from old Chat Thai. List reads literally like "younger brother, older brother, younger brother, son, mother, daughter, brother-in-law, wife".

Occupational representation would render this nonsense meaningless overnight.

So, how would this "disorganised mass" (two-thirds of the Thai population) actually achieve fair representation under the functional system that you propose?

Good question, there's large informal sector that needs representation, and needs to be formalised to have any kind of internal elections. I have not better suggestions than simply appointing whoever is available, probably from NGOs who work with these people.

Leaving aside the 26% "urban informal" sector for the purposes of this, how many of those agricultural workers (41% of the Thai population) do you think fall into the category of what you'd regard as 'average "modern" person' (let alone are members of fitness clubs)?

Actually quite a lot - they are also linked to each other via their jobs and businesses, not only locations. Derfinitely this is the sector that is still united mostly geographically, but their professional ties can't be discounted either.

I remember Thaksin going all ga ga over linking farmers via Internet so they can check the prices, find better deals, negotiate with middlemen and so on - there's obviously a need to forge professional ties there, occupational representation will certainly help that.

I don't see how "new politics" can hurt them, even if they are not as modern as belong to fitness clubs - they do know, or want to know people outside their villages, this is inevitable as we all become parts of a global village.

Your "especially in the cities" is a telling phrase - and it strikes me that your whole thesis is city-centric in general and "professional"-oriented in particular........ so back to constructing a system that inherently favours city professionals (read "middle class") over the rural population.

Good point. It depends on what the occupational part of parliament should represent - people or professions? What should the quota allocation be based on? Only numbers or contribution to the societly as well? Agricutlure adds only 10% to GDP, why should they be given commanding majority over exports or tourism, for example.

I'll remind you that you completely ignored my question about how the military would be represented in the system you propose...........

It doesn't matter, they don't run the country, have no interests in issues of taxation or development or whatever. They were forced to act in 2006 only because of a dangerous political rift. In peaceful days no one remembers they exist.

Too many details? Again - these "details" are right at the core of any change.

I insist they have too many details in the constitution, it should only be a framework, flexible and accomodating. Now they need an amendment over each and every issue that might not pop up for the next ten years, like what to do with party list MPs of dissolved PPP.

You might understand why I infer from all this that you regard a constitution as being relatively insignificant. Most developed nations that I can think of regard their constitution as a vital safeguard for their people's liberties

80% didn't even read the 2007 consitution, that's the reality here. 1997 consitution had become completely meaningless by the time of the coup, even if it was held dear by all parties.

People here always find ways to get around paper rules.

you seem to be under the illusion that people left to themselves (i.e. without the protection/authority of a constitution or at least some set of well-thought-through and well-worded laws/rules to govern conduct)

Just like with rasing kids - rules help, but their application should be reasonable, as rules also often stiffle growth.

No one can predict how Thai democracy will grow, and they have to do it themselves, for the first time in history. There's no step by step prescription on how it should happen, and there's no need to impose one.

I have no idea what problems will crop up after several years of occupational representation system, no one has, so there's no need to lay down iron cast rules on how it should be.

Nowhere I advocate anarchy, btw. I've been accused of great many things on TV, but not of being too liberal.

If I missed some important points - tell me. I've got to run now.

[sriracha john]

Red-shirt Group in Northeast to Close off Parliament on Policy Declaration Day

Members of the red-shirt group in Udon Thani province declared their support for the Leader of the Puea Pandin Party as Prime Minister and held a casket-burning ceremony for the current PM.

The group also announced that they will lead members of the red-shirt group in closing off Parliament on the day the new government declares its policy to pressure the government into returning power to the people.

Supporters of Thailand's ousted Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra set fire to a coffin and an effigy of new Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva in Udon Thani province, December 22, 2008.

REUTERS

[marshbags]

Red-shirt Group in Northeast to Close off Parliament on Policy Declaration Day

Members of the red-shirt group in Udon Thani province declared their support for the Leader of the Puea Pandin Party as Prime Minister and held a casket-burning ceremony for the current PM.

The group also announced that they will lead members of the red-shirt group in closing off Parliament on the day the new government declares its policy to pressure the government into returning power to the people.

On 97.5 FM, the red-shirt group in Tumbon Mak-keang of Udon Thani province and the leader of the group, Kwanchai Sarakam, read its declaration on their stance and their actions against the new government.

The declaration states that the group will act politically and remain faithful to the nation, religion, and the monarchy, while resisting the silent coup of the elites, powerful military groups, and all kinds of political sectors with the aim of taking power from the people.

Kwanchai said that, last night, Police General Pracha Promnok, Leader of the Puea Pandin Party, called him and thanked members of his group for their support.

Kwanchai insisted that the group will continue to support Police General Pracha and will give him a warm welcome if he comes to Udon Thani.

Moreover, Kwanchai said the group and more than 10,000 red-shirt supporters nationwide will rally at Sanam Luang this Sunday before heading to Parliament to pressure the government against the declaration of its policies, as they want the government to give power back to the people by dissolving the House of Representatives.

After reading their declaration, the group burned a casket and also torched an effigy of the PM, while shouting insults and cheering before they dispersed.

- TOC / 2008-12-22

Out and about on both this and a recent occasion when the Red shirts where around prior to being spoken to by these individual spokemen /organisers.

They appeared and were peaceful and not in any way aggressive, in fact rather ordinary and friendly to everyone.

Not threatening in any way, i might also add.

However once they get into a group as directed by the organisers and the hatred is fired up by these individuals voicing their venom and evil, it becomes a typical Jekyll and Hyde scenario.

I take some comfort in the fact that most of the demonstrators, if the prelude to the main event is anything to go by, are acting under instructions rather than self motivation as i have also witnessed while the demos where / are ongoing.

They where not the bused in thugs i saw awhile back, hel_l bent on mayhem and violent destruction ect. ect.

Hmnnnnnnn ???

marshbags

Edited December 23, 2008 by marshbags

[henryalleman]

I'm not sure why you didn't follow what IMO is normal forum practice and reply quoting my post # 983 (page 40) given that

a] I raised a number of specific points - so it would be easier for other readers to follow the discussion if you had included my post in your response

b] There have been a large number of other postings on different tangents in between my post and your response.

Because the only point I remembered and wanted to specifically address from that post was "devil in details". These posts tend to grow exponentially if we address each and every point.

"The peasantry is gradually disappearing, but very slowly and imperfectly....

The political figures who exploited the resulting situation were the local political bosses which emerged from the 1970s onwards, and became the dominant element of the political system in the 1990s. The rural and informal population were not active participants in democratic politics, but were available as passive recipients of political goods. A pyramid of informal organizations developed upwards: in the locality, the phak phuak or clique, which could turn out voters; above that, the electoral alliance; then the faction of MPs; finally, the governing coalition. Up this pyramid flowed the aggregated support needed for success in representative politics. Downwards in reciprocation flowed various political goods such as budget allocations, informal political patronage, Protection, and cash in the form of vote-buying. The pyramid remained very non-institutionalized – essentially as informal as its social base. Over two Decades, the people at the base became used to their role as clients for patronage from a big boss figure linked to the pyramid."

..

In case you rush to dismiss her as a Thaksin apologist, I'll also include the following extract from her conclusion:

I absolutely concure with these two extracts.

What she wrote here is a damning description of geographical representation system, maybe it's not clear from her description, but this patronage pyramid is a real bane of Thai politics, taking over what was meant to be a democracy.

Today in the paper there's a list of eight names scheduled to run in by-elections from old Chat Thai. List reads literally like "younger brother, older brother, younger brother, son, mother, daughter, brother-in-law, wife".

Occupational representation would render this nonsense meaningless overnight.

So, how would this "disorganised mass" (two-thirds of the Thai population) actually achieve fair representation under the functional system that you propose?

Good question, there's large informal sector that needs representation, and needs to be formalised to have any kind of internal elections. I have not better suggestions than simply appointing whoever is available, probably from NGOs who work with these people.

Leaving aside the 26% "urban informal" sector for the purposes of this, how many of those agricultural workers (41% of the Thai population) do you think fall into the category of what you'd regard as 'average "modern" person' (let alone are members of fitness clubs)?

Actually quite a lot - they are also linked to each other via their jobs and businesses, not only locations. Derfinitely this is the sector that is still united mostly geographically, but their professional ties can't be discounted either.

I remember Thaksin going all ga ga over linking farmers via Internet so they can check the prices, find better deals, negotiate with middlemen and so on - there's obviously a need to forge professional ties there, occupational representation will certainly help that.

I don't see how "new politics" can hurt them, even if they are not as modern as belong to fitness clubs - they do know, or want to know people outside their villages, this is inevitable as we all become parts of a global village.

Your "especially in the cities" is a telling phrase - and it strikes me that your whole thesis is city-centric in general and "professional"-oriented in particular........ so back to constructing a system that inherently favours city professionals (read "middle class") over the rural population.

Good point. It depends on what the occupational part of parliament should represent - people or professions? What should the quota allocation be based on? Only numbers or contribution to the societly as well? Agricutlure adds only 10% to GDP, why should they be given commanding majority over exports or tourism, for example.

I'll remind you that you completely ignored my question about how the military would be represented in the system you propose...........

It doesn't matter, they don't run the country, have no interests in issues of taxation or development or whatever. They were forced to act in 2006 only because of a dangerous political rift. In peaceful days no one remembers they exist.

Too many details? Again - these "details" are right at the core of any change.

I insist they have too many details in the constitution, it should only be a framework, flexible and accomodating. Now they need an amendment over each and every issue that might not pop up for the next ten years, like what to do with party list MPs of dissolved PPP.

You might understand why I infer from all this that you regard a constitution as being relatively insignificant. Most developed nations that I can think of regard their constitution as a vital safeguard for their people's liberties

80% didn't even read the 2007 consitution, that's the reality here. 1997 consitution had become completely meaningless by the time of the coup, even if it was held dear by all parties.

People here always find ways to get around paper rules.

you seem to be under the illusion that people left to themselves (i.e. without the protection/authority of a constitution or at least some set of well-thought-through and well-worded laws/rules to govern conduct)

Just like with rasing kids - rules help, but their application should be reasonable, as rules also often stiffle growth.

No one can predict how Thai democracy will grow, and they have to do it themselves, for the first time in history. There's no step by step prescription on how it should happen, and there's no need to impose one.

I have no idea what problems will crop up after several years of occupational representation system, no one has, so there's no need to lay down iron cast rules on how it should be.

Nowhere I advocate anarchy, btw. I've been accused of great many things on TV, but not of being too liberal.

If I missed some important points - tell me. I've got to run now.

you did missed the most important point; its undelmocratic

Do you know any democracy where this excists?

[jbowman1993]

Henry, quoting 4 full screens of previous posts is ridiculous...

[TAWP]

Sorry TAWP and JD, but you need a new angle. When you or your party are in power, you support them and explain policies. You guys are so used to being in opposition that you cannot get beyong the sniping and cheap shots posts yet.

My party? hardly.

I find it interesting that you spend all of this time on the forum and still you fail to read what is actually posted.

And for the record, I find no problems with a politician being a mama-san in their previous job. I supported Flynts bid for the California governorship too. As long as some-one isn't a convicted criminal, let their actions and views speak for them. Why should it rule them out of a job? Because you are suffering from repressed Victorian sexual values and cannot deal with it? Though luck.

[Plus]

you did missed the most important point; its undelmocratic

As long as people have the opportunity to pariticipate in governing the country it IS democratic. It can't be any less democratic than the current system, it just can't get any worse, with both sides raising valid questions about each other's legitimacy and democratic credentials.

[jasreeve17]

Sorry TAWP and JD, but you need a new angle. When you or your party are in power, you support them and explain policies. You guys are so used to being in opposition that you cannot get beyong the sniping and cheap shots posts yet.

My party? hardly.

I find it interesting that you spend all of this time on the forum and still you fail to read what is actually posted.

And for the record, I find no problems with a politician being a mama-san in their previous job. I supported Flynts bid for the California governorship too. As long as some-one isn't a convicted criminal, let their actions and views speak for them. Why should it rule them out of a job? Because you are suffering from repressed Victorian sexual values and cannot deal with it? Though luck.

But, Thai law does - she was a criminal, if indeed this place was a sex den and she knowingly managed it as such.

Your second point is very funny; not for the reason you intended.

[TAWP]

Sorry TAWP and JD, but you need a new angle. When you or your party are in power, you support them and explain policies. You guys are so used to being in opposition that you cannot get beyong the sniping and cheap shots posts yet.

My party? hardly.

I find it interesting that you spend all of this time on the forum and still you fail to read what is actually posted.

And for the record, I find no problems with a politician being a mama-san in their previous job. I supported Flynts bid for the California governorship too. As long as some-one isn't a convicted criminal, let their actions and views speak for them. Why should it rule them out of a job? Because you are suffering from repressed Victorian sexual values and cannot deal with it? Though luck.

But, Thai law does - she was a criminal, if indeed this place was a sex den and she knowingly managed it as such.

Your second point is very funny; not for the reason you intended.

Was she convicted of anything? Seems she was not. If that defense was enough for Thaksin, surely it is enough for her...

And for the record, the sex trade (and 'smut peddling', aka magazines, movies et al) should be legalized.

[grandpops]

Sorry TAWP and JD, but you need a new angle. When you or your party are in power, you support them and explain policies. You guys are so used to being in opposition that you cannot get beyong the sniping and cheap shots posts yet.

My party? hardly.

I find it interesting that you spend all of this time on the forum and still you fail to read what is actually posted.

And for the record, I find no problems with a politician being a mama-san in their previous job. I supported Flynts bid for the California governorship too. As long as some-one isn't a convicted criminal, let their actions and views speak for them. Why should it rule them out of a job? Because you are suffering from repressed Victorian sexual values and cannot deal with it? Though luck.

But, Thai law does - she was a criminal, if indeed this place was a sex den and she knowingly managed it as such.

Your second point is very funny; not for the reason you intended.

Was she convicted of anything? Seems she was not. If that defense was enough for Thaksin, surely it is enough for her...

And for the record, the sex trade (and 'smut peddling', aka magazines, movies et al) should be legalized.

As per my previous post. You and the rest of the PAD tag team are just driven by a hatred of Thaksin and have nothing positive underlying your cause.

It's not enough to sit on the fence and be negative. You must support something or people will think you are just obsessed.

All I asked was that you get on and promote what is good about this new lot. IE.

Has cronyism finished now PPP are out or did Abhisit just appoint a school chum and did Chaowarat make it his first priority to get his mates brother back at the top of the Police force? After the failure of the Police to stop any problems (PAD or red shirts) under his last rein, couldn't they find somebody better or at least a bit less related to one of their ministers?

Have criminal anarchists been removed or did the new foreign minister support the PAD destroying the high season? And is it he still saying it was fun and had good food and music?

Has murky horse trading finished with Thaksins demise or has a mama san been appointed commerce minister just because he needed her parties vote to secure his masters noses in the trough, and did Newins PPP/TRT faction just get themselves back at the helm of the country?

New politics indeed!

Edited December 23, 2008 by grandpops

[jasreeve17]

Sorry TAWP and JD, but you need a new angle. When you or your party are in power, you support them and explain policies. You guys are so used to being in opposition that you cannot get beyong the sniping and cheap shots posts yet.

My party? hardly.

I find it interesting that you spend all of this time on the forum and still you fail to read what is actually posted.

And for the record, I find no problems with a politician being a mama-san in their previous job. I supported Flynts bid for the California governorship too. As long as some-one isn't a convicted criminal, let their actions and views speak for them. Why should it rule them out of a job? Because you are suffering from repressed Victorian sexual values and cannot deal with it? Though luck.

But, Thai law does - she was a criminal, if indeed this place was a sex den and she knowingly managed it as such.

Your second point is very funny; not for the reason you intended.

Was she convicted of anything? Seems she was not. If that defense was enough for Thaksin, surely it is enough for her...

And for the record, the sex trade (and 'smut peddling', aka magazines, movies et al) should be legalized.

Thaksin was awful, why would you use his obvious forms of corruption as your defence?

(Stalin killed millions, if it's good enough for Stalin... - moronic.)

Your second point is an opinion, a minority one, that happens to go against current laws in this country and the vast majority of countries on planet earth.

Lastly, you and I (and the vast majority of forum readers) have a full idea of what this lady (allegedly...) did; she sold young women for sex - it's not glamorous or nice for the young women involved. You think they actually want to shag fat old tw#ts like you and me? Now she will take up a major ministry position - you believe this to be okay?

Frankly, mindless and blinkered hatred filled posts (PADites) have nothing to offer a sensible argument, as many posters are increasingly pointing out.

How can you re-read your words and sentiments without complete embarrassment and shame???

[animatic]

Sorry TAWP and JD, but you need a new angle. When you or your party are in power, you support them and explain policies. You guys are so used to being in opposition that you cannot get beyong the sniping and cheap shots posts yet.

My party? hardly.

I find it interesting that you spend all of this time on the forum and still you fail to read what is actually posted.

And for the record, I find no problems with a politician being a mama-san in their previous job. I supported Flynts bid for the California governorship too. As long as some-one isn't a convicted criminal, let their actions and views speak for them. Why should it rule them out of a job? Because you are suffering from repressed Victorian sexual values and cannot deal with it? Though luck.

But, Thai law does - she was a criminal, if indeed this place was a sex den and she knowingly managed it as such.

Your second point is very funny; not for the reason you intended.

She ran a gigantic soapy. People got bathed.

She wasn't arrested and convicted for selling sex.

So she has the right to run for any position from the legal point of view.

We may find it absurd, but it's true.

Considering the size and pervasiveness of the sex industry here,

it seems likely that few in the government of BOTH sides of the fence

are not intimately aquainted with how it works and who runs it.

It's not blind, blinkered hatred of Thaksin by the way.

It's great distrust, brought on by an visible, obvious mental deterioration on his part,

based on his words and actions over time. Under stress he goes paranoid and a bit flakey...

I can not see him being in control of this country again. Hubris run amuk.

Too damned dangerous.

Edited December 23, 2008 by animatic