Withdrawal Restrictions?

[Bangkok Barry]

During the past week I and two others that I know of have had difficulty withdrawing cash using overseas ATM cards.

I first drew 10,000, and upon trying for another 10,000 it rejected my card. The next day it told me I could have only 2,500. When I entered the Bangkok Bank to query this, in Kalasin, another foreigner was in there having the same problem. Thai-style, the bank person just said there was no problem. Then a friend from Germany was also restricted to 2,500. Both my card and the card of my friend are on major banks, HSBC in the UK and Commerzbank in Germany. I don't know what card the other person had, or from what country (English was obviously not his first language).

My wife once more queried this at a Bangkok Bank in Bangkok on Monday and the desk clerk there again said there was no problem. Obviously there is. My UK bank says they have placed no restriction on withdrawals, and alarm bells are now ringing. Are Thai banks now running short of cash and restricting withdrawals, perhaps only from foreigners who usually withdraw more than the locals.

So far I have only tried this with Bangkok Bank ATMs. Anyone else had any experience of this? With the way the economy is likely to go here in the near future and bearing in mind that Thai banks are essentially only small local affairs and therefore presumably quite weak I'm thinking of withdrawing our considerable savings from Bangkok Bank and opening an account with HSBC here.

Of course, with Thai banks doing their own thing they also might not be so caught in the downturn and may be protected (ie they were not involved in the sub-prime mortgage fiasco).

Advice would be welcomed.

[LaoPo]

During the past week I and two others that I know of have had difficulty withdrawing cash using overseas ATM cards.

I first drew 10,000, and upon trying for another 10,000 it rejected my card. The next day it told me I could have only 2,500. When I entered the Bangkok Bank to query this, in Kalasin, another foreigner was in there having the same problem. Thai-style, the bank person just said there was no problem. Then a friend from Germany was also restricted to 2,500. Both my card and the card of my friend are on major banks, HSBC in the UK and Commerzbank in Germany. I don't know what card the other person had, or from what country (English was obviously not his first language).

My wife once more queried this at a Bangkok Bank in Bangkok on Monday and the desk clerk there again said there was no problem. Obviously there is. My UK bank says they have placed no restriction on withdrawals, and alarm bells are now ringing. Are Thai banks now running short of cash and restricting withdrawals, perhaps only from foreigners who usually withdraw more than the locals.

So far I have only tried this with Bangkok Bank ATMs. Anyone else had any experience of this? With the way the economy is likely to go here in the near future and bearing in mind that Thai banks are essentially only small local affairs and therefore presumably quite weak I'm thinking of withdrawing our considerable savings from Bangkok Bank and opening an account with HSBC here.

Of course, with Thai banks doing their own thing they also might not be so caught in the downturn and may be protected (ie they were not involved in the sub-prime mortgage fiasco).

Advice would be welcomed.

Act...now.

LaoPo

[jim1563]

Had the same problem at a TMI bank would only let me take out 2500 but went down the street to kasikorn bank and took out 15000 no problem was using UK flex account....

[Crossy]

I've been limited to 2,500 on several occasions. On each it was because the machine only had 100 Baht notes left and was hitting the 25 note limit. Usually happens near the end of month pay run.

[Crossy]

Crappy connection = double post

Edited December 16, 2008 by Crossy

[mosquitobill]

I used the TMB in Jomtien the other day and when I tried to withdraw 10000baht with my Natwest switch card it said I could only have 5000 baht which I took and then put my card back in and got the other 5000 Baht !

[Bangkok Barry]

So, something is going on. In the past I've been able to draw 20,000 x 2 at a time. Now we are being restricted. Not that the banks will admit it, as I've discovered. Since my first post I've been told of others who have tried ATMs from multiple banks, so it isn't only Bangkok Bank. Whether this only applies to accessing overseas funds or includes Thai accounts too I don't know yet.

Has anyone had trouble drawing from local accounts?

[aurelius]

Replies of the above nature from Advanced Members who should know better are ill-informed and dangerous. Deposits in Thai banks are all guaranteed by the government in a scheme which has recently been extended for 3 or 5 more years. There has been no reduction in the guarantee levels as was previously under consideration. Therefore funds in Thai banks are safer than most European and American banks, and as was pointed out, Thai banks have not had the exposure to the securities products which have created the US problems.

Regarding the cash withdrawal limits - TMB has recently implemented and I believe subsequently changed again, its withdrawal limit. This was in response to increases in charges from MasterCard who doesn't allow the fees to be passed on to customers. The BOT is considering allowing the banks to pass those charges on - this will be coming soon in the form of a surcharge on international card withdrawals from ATMs in Thailand.

Some banks do suffer from peak withdrawals at certain periods, and when ATM machines are stocked with 1,000 bt notes, 500 and 100's - if the higher denominations run out first sometimes only 100 bt notes will be left. Most ATMs output only 20 or 25 notes at a time, so therefore the available amount could look like 2,500 only. This is not a policy or liquidity matter but reflects on demand and servicing - not necessarily well matched.

[SomNamNah]

yup, i was limited to 10k yesterday. usually 20k+ limit.

phew, i thought i had hit the overdraft limit already

!

[Bangkok Barry]

Thanks to Aurelius for a reasoned response. However, I still have several concerns.

The guarantee of deposits was made by a government that no longer exists. And although the money might be guaranteed, full access is still being denied.

Attempts to withdraw were made by many people at various times, and all at the beginning of the month rather than when people get paid at the end of the month and when demand is highest.

ATMs do run short, but in over 10 years here I have only been restricted once. Now it is happening regularly.

The two banks my wife has questioned have both denied any restrictions are in place, while quite obviously there are. That alone should cause alarm bells to ring. Not only have they not announced restrictions, they deny they exist. They know that Thais will often believe anything they are told without question - but farangs do not.

I am going to visit my local bank again today, and if they come up with the same denial I will withdraw everything and place the money elsewhere. I never trust people who I know are lying to me. Would you?

Edited December 17, 2008 by Bangkok Barry

[Kf6vci]

Recently, a THB 10,000 ATM withdrawal triggered some alert at HSBC UK. I had to call their Fraud Department etc. although it was a common transaction with my PIN.

This tells me they are weary of fraud.

A cc was copied and then used in Australia in some small nails shop - a 4-digit amount?! Someone buying thousands worth of fingernail paint in some small shop? They asked me to file a Police report, then they did nothing, nada. Surely, the shop would remember such a day?!

We use throw away e-mail accounts because of spam. Maybe we will soon stop using those cc's with high limits and generate cc numbers for online purchases (CAHOOT offered this in 2002) or use throw away credit cards.

If you can, maybe a local ATM card makes sense? Especially if you are charged 5 quid per withdrawal!

BTW, Advanzia Bank in Luxembourg offers free withdrawals. Get such a card and save $$$ in a year. More banks offer such a deal!

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

I think that HSBC recently had a billion dollar loss with Bernie Madoff. Perhaps this is putting a crimp in HSBC cash flow? Possible limiting withdrawals.

[Bangkok Barry]

Recently, a THB 10,000 ATM withdrawal triggered some alert at HSBC UK. I had to call their Fraud Department etc. although it was a common transaction with my PIN.

This is exactly what started this off for me. I drew 10,000, then decided to draw another 10,000. Which is usually okay. The ATM refused. Over the next few days I was offered 2,500 or nothing. When I called HSBC they told me there had been a malfunction on the original ATM that triggered an alert. Even though I had been using the card in Thailand, even at the same ATM, for many months.

Since then I've been hearing of many other peope having 'problems'. Just seems very suspicious to me for it to be happening now. Something is going on that we are not being told about. But they wouldn't tell us, would they.

Edited December 17, 2008 by Bangkok Barry

[ozsamurai]

Despite setting my daily withdrawal limits at 50,0000JPY (150K) with Citibank Gold, the machines here will not let me, and have never let me access more than 25,000bht a day (different banks, same day), its a PITA and nothing can be done from your bank side. Its retarded that for a major purchase I have to plan to go to the ATM for 5 days to raise the cash, and accept whatever the rate fluctuations are, and pay a fee each time. You are left only with moving any larger sums via bank transfer, at a higher fee of course. Citibank Japan has also taken to stop electronic transfers to Baht due to the 'volatility' in the market, which means that you also need to pay for the phone call now and the extra charge to do a transfer between accounts.

Rant Over

Oz

[LaoPo]

Replies of the above nature from Advanced Members who should know better are ill-informed and dangerous. Deposits in Thai banks are all guaranteed by the government in a scheme which has recently been extended for 3 or 5 more years. There has been no reduction in the guarantee levels as was previously under consideration. Therefore funds in Thai banks are safer than most European and American banks, and as was pointed out, Thai banks have not had the exposure to the securities products which have created the US problems.

Would you be willing to put all your money at stake because of a guarantee of the/a Thai government ?

Not me.

And, to claim that Thai banks are safer than most European or American banks is also something extremely risky to say since you (or anybody else for that matter) are not able to guarantee that.

Better be careful with what you say.

LaoPo

[dingdongrb]

I bank with Wachovia back in the USA. Up until a few weeks ago I was able to withdraw 20k baht a day, now it has been limited for some reason. I called and spoke with Customer Service and was informed that they changed the limits for daily cash withdraws to $500 USD across all accounts. She mentioned that this was done to prevent fraud. I thanked her in a sarcastic way for not making this policy change known.

[aurelius]

Its quite simple to look at which countries have guaranteed their bank's deposits and to what extent, and which have not. Thailand has an unlimited guarantee for bank deposits in place. The FDIC offers 100,000 USD coverage in most cases, credit union customers get 50k if I'm not mistaken. The situation that arose in Iceland speaks for itself.

[LaoPo]

Its quite simple to look at which countries have guaranteed their bank's deposits and to what extent, and which have not. Thailand has an unlimited guarantee for bank deposits in place. The FDIC offers 100,000 USD coverage in most cases, credit union customers get 50k if I'm not mistaken. The situation that arose in Iceland speaks for itself.

It's almost sweet how naive your view upon that so called unlimited guarantee by Thailand is....

Maybe you would like to bet on that guarantee and I'm sure the very rich and wealthy Thai elite are relying on that also because they probably whispered that law into the ears of their ruling nephews, cousins, sons and daughters.

But...if Farang will benefit from that unlimited guarantee if Banks would go under..............?

I don't know.......... but I certainly wouldn't risk my own money on that law.

LaoPo

[JohnC]

As I posted on another query re this problem, I noted on Monday a TMB ATM had a sign on it saying "New Rule from BOT, foreign cards limit 5000baht" Now I can't remember if it said 5000 per transaction or 5000 per day and as intimated above this rule may have been recinded, I have not tried to withdraw yet.

[keestha]

Lao Po is fully correct with his warnings I think. Strange to what an extend people trust a guarantee just because it has been given by a government. Would you be able to sleep well if your $10 million deposit was fully guaranteed by the Somalian government?

[JohnC]

Tried my N/W atm card at the BB today and got 15000 baht no problem so looks like another ill thought out rule has bitten the dust.

[JonnyF]

Bangkok Bank are one of the safer bets for sure.

Very conservative capital ratio, limited sub-prime exposure, backed by (and backing) some VERY wealthy people - I don't think a few farang taking out 12 months worth of spending money is going to hurt them too much. Which bank is unbreakable at the moment anyway?

[Bangkok Barry]

I spoke with five people at the big Kasikorn Bank on Phanonyothin Road yesterday, gradually working my way up the chain of command, and none claimed to be aware of any restriction other than the ability of the machines to only issue 20 notes at a time. None were that convincing, but I think it was a case of them simply not really knowing rather than being deliberately evasive. They told me the limit is therefore 20,000, but that actually is wrong because after drawing one 20,000 I have been able to draw a second 20,000 on more than one occasion.

Whatever, a friend of mine has recently twice drawn 12,000 and several people contributing here appear to have no problems so perhaps there was simply a temporary problem.

[Kaojai]

Has anyone had trouble drawing from local accounts?

I have an account with Bangkok Bank and have not had any restrictions when using my Bangkok Bank ATM card with machines from Bangkok Bank, Kasikorn, Krung Thai or Siam.

[cclub75]

In his weekly letter (published today) Stickman writes :

For not the first time in the past month a friend went to an ATM machine to make a withdrawal only to find that the amount he could withdraw was much less than expected. He normally withdraws 15,000 baht a time but on this occasion he could only withdraw 2,500 baht! Going into the bank, he found another foreigner who had a similar problem. My friend has an account in England with one of the big banks and no shortage of cash. Inside the bank was a German with an account at Commerzbank - and he too was limited to withdrawals of 2,500 baht. The common denominator here would appear to be the local bank although the bank dismissed any accusations against them and tried to blame the limited amount that could be withdrawn on the foreign banks where the customers' accounts are held.

Edited December 21, 2008 by cclub75

[cclub75]

As I posted on another query re this problem, I noted on Monday a TMB ATM had a sign on it saying "New Rule from BOT, foreign cards limit 5000baht" Now I can't remember if it said 5000 per transaction or 5000 per day and as intimated above this rule may have been recinded, I have not tried to withdraw yet.

That could be the smoking gun that could convince the skeptics... Could you take a picture of this sign ?

[jubby]

I could only draw out 5000 baht per transaction on saturday. Since I needed 10,000 I used another ATM and got another 5000 baht out and didn't give it another thought.

Just checked my statement online and it shows that the first ATM was TMB. the second was KrungThai.

Maybe it was a problem just with TMB as I didn't request more than 5000 baht from KrungThai.

Maybe its just that the ATM was running out of money and the restriction is part of its programming in this situation.

[JohnC]

That could be the smoking gun that could convince the skeptics... Could you take a picture of this sign ?

Will do next time Im in RGP, incidentaly I have since withdrawn 15000 baht on three seperate occasions without any problem all at a BB ATM with my N/W flexi card!

[Briggsy]

Back on topic

If you are using an overseas ATM card (debit card?) and the ATM decides to limit your withdrawals, I suggest you go into the bank and make a withdrawal over the counter. Usually Thai banks impose no extra charge and the ATM limit will not apply. You'll certainly need to take your passport though.

[parryhandy]

Just been xmas shopping earlier at Big C and tried to withdraw 15000 baht at 4 different machines on my Nationwide flex card with no success.Phoned them in the UK and I have to speak to the special investigation team who are on holiday untill Saturday Nothing untoward on checking the account online and have been withdrawing regularly in Thailand for a number of years.Got 300 baht to my name now , so looks like i will have to tap the mrs and/or MIL up till Saturday , bloody great

PS. banks are definately becoming more vigilant about withdrawals here. Had the right run around trying to use my credit card to withdraw cash a few months ago , the excuses they came out with for my withdrawal attempts failing were comical really.

Edited December 24, 2008 by parryhandy