Were You As Nationalistic About Your Own Country As You Are About Thailand?

[dave9988]

So I was reading another thread where a poster's life was physically threatened because he stated that he did not stand up for the National Anthem at 6pm and it got me thinking that, reading these boards, it seems that many farang are very serious when it comes to Thai pride and Nationalism. Despite not having Thai citizenship and very few legal rights in the country, many farang appear ready to cut anyone's throat who does not feel the same level of Nationalistic pride as they do or does not wear the right color t-shirt.

And often it seems, that many of the principles they feel so passionately about, go against the Western social outlook of freedom of choice. Why is it that things you would never accept or believe in in your own country all of sudden become acceptable and enforcable to the death in Thailand?

Do you feel that you are more apart of Thailand than you were your own country?

[Rinrada]

Last vestige of the scoundral...init......who said that..

[Jingthing]

It is natural for immigrants to be hyper-nationalistic about their new countries. It is not a small thing to break the roots from your home country. In the US, the most mindless nationalists are newer citizens. You see the same kind of thing in Thailand. But here it is very irrational coming from people who will never be permanent residents here, not to speak of the tiny numbers of us who actually (or want to be) become Thai citizens. I respect the Thai rituals but realize they have little to do with me.

Edited December 20, 2008 by Jingthing

[GungaDin]

I don't know abt feeling Nationalistic about Thailand, I respect their religion and HM.

If I stand up during the anthem at a cinema its out of respect.

I had 5 years here and went hime for 4.

Sydney was too violent and moving up the coast to a beautiful coastal resort proved to be safe, but too quiet.

I was bored shirtless,. (sp?)

Since coming back, I feel at home and never feel threatened as I did in Aus..

It feels like I've never been away.

Friends I made here in 1999 are still friends.

I bitch about a lot of things here but it sure beats anywhere else.

[londonthai]

well, as a member of the working class, and not the ruling one, I do not own any country - the country owns me, my work and I do have a debt in the national bank.

probably everybody knows Woody Allen's "Zelig" a "human chameleon" suffering from the persnonality disorder, who is able do adjust to any environment, for example as a Jew working for the Nazis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zelig - I think there are many foreigners-Zeligs in Thailand

Edited December 20, 2008 by londonthai

[dave9988]

I respect the Thai rituals but realize they have little to do with me.

Well it would appear that many farang believe that these things do have something to do with them.

[waza]

I respect the Thai pride and Nationalism, as a guest in this country. Same as I respect the house rules when I am a guest in someones house.

[So1DoG]

Its a bit like... i have been here longer than you so i know more or you have only a few posts count so you know little about thailand.

In other words farangs trying to show off with thinking there connection with thailand is better than yours.

They fail to forget thailand as a whole doesnt give a crap about them.

Ps good troll thread btw.

Edited December 20, 2008 by So1DoG

[Xangsamhua]

I'm a guest in this country, regardless of how long I've been here or will remain. The Thais don't want me to become a citizen, or even a permanent resident, really. I can be respectful and try to adjust to what my Thai patrons and counterparts expect of me (in terms of manner, behaviour, loyalty, etc.). They're paying me and have been kind to me in many ways. However, it seems birthplace and ethnicity are keystones to patriotism and in a country where one has not been born and one's ethnicity is not enfranchised, how can you be patriotic? I wish Thailand well, but don't feel the same way about the place as I do my own country of birth.

[dumball]

I respect the Thai pride and Nationalism, as a guest in this country. Same as I respect the house rules when I am a guest in someones house.

So do you litter beaches etc , cook in your hotel room and invite 4/5/6/ other people to bed down with you ? Do you 'Crowd 'a bus before passengers have alit , push in front of people lined up at a check-out , pick your nose openly in public , play your music full blast to the detriment of your neighbours ears ? So where is this 'Pride and nationalism ' you so wontanly respect ? Just a point of interest of how far you are prepared to go to prove to Thai what a good boy you are .

[sharecropper]

So I was reading another thread where a poster's life was physically threatened because he stated that he did not stand up for the National Anthem at 6pm and it got me thinking that, reading these boards, it seems that many farang are very serious when it comes to Thai pride and Nationalism. Despite not having Thai citizenship and very few legal rights in the country, many farang appear ready to cut anyone's throat who does not feel the same level of Nationalistic pride as they do or does not wear the right color t-shirt.

And often it seems, that many of the principles they feel so passionately about, go against the Western social outlook of freedom of choice. Why is it that things you would never accept or believe in in your own country all of sudden become acceptable and enforcable to the death in Thailand?

Do you feel that you are more apart of Thailand than you were your own country?

If you don't mind a compliment, your thread title is a brilliant question.

My answer: I would play the game wherever I am in the world, when it comes to local sensitivities, hypocrisies, double-think, traditions, whether I lived there or if I was there as a tourist, but I reserve the right to laugh or puke up my sleeve about it.

Edited December 20, 2008 by sharecropper

[MJP]

So I was reading another thread where a poster's life was physically threatened because he stated that he did not stand up for the National Anthem at 6pm and it got me thinking that, reading these boards, it seems that many farang are very serious when it comes to Thai pride and Nationalism. Despite not having Thai citizenship and very few legal rights in the country, many farang appear ready to cut anyone's throat who does not feel the same level of Nationalistic pride as they do or does not wear the right color t-shirt.

And often it seems, that many of the principles they feel so passionately about, go against the Western social outlook of freedom of choice. Why is it that things you would never accept or believe in in your own country all of sudden become acceptable and enforcable to the death in Thailand?

Do you feel that you are more apart of Thailand than you were your own country?

I think this is true.

The reason? An identity crisis among many western nations, not least the UK. No sense of community or belonging any more in Britain especially. People want to be part of something other than consumers of tat.

EDIT TO ADD: I think some get a little enthusiastic about nationalism when they realise that, in Thailand, most people just want to consume tat as well. Including wives/gf's etc.

Edited December 20, 2008 by MJP

[dave9988]

tat?

[Gaccha]

"In Thailand today, the farang are still regarded as a race (unspecified nationalities) possessed of an ideology inferior to the abundantly rich local culture. The farang who come to reside in Thailand are described as begging for the boundless benevolence of the King , or rom phtohi somphan, to live a pleasant and enchanted life. For a Farang to be accepted in Thai society, he or she must totally abandon their innate attitudes or become excessively enamoured with anything Thai (culture, art or way of life). Todd Lavell... is an American writer who provides an example of how a farang can be so Thai-like. His articles ... often underscore what is deemed to be the true value of Thainess, which is opposite to and more superior than that of farangness."

--Pavin Chachavalpongpun

Thai Professor, visiting Professor of SOAS, London University

Expert on Thai nationalism and Thai identity

Is there anything more that needs to be added...?

Edited December 20, 2008 by Gaccha

[Jingthing]

Is there anything more that needs to be added...?

Probably there is, but that was stunning.

[tijnebijn]

Sometimes we forget we all LIVE ON THE SAME Planet !

So nationalism and our human things and nonsense are all shit .

Being ignorant is another thing ofcourse .

Edited December 20, 2008 by tijnebijn

[Huey]

"In Thailand today, the farang are still regarded as a race (unspecified nationalities) possessed of an ideology inferior to the abundantly rich local culture. The farang who come to reside in Thailand are described as begging for the boundless benevolence of the King , or rom phtohi somphan, to live a pleasant and enchanted life. For a Farang to be accepted in Thai society, he or she must totally abandon their innate attitudes or become excessively enamoured with anything Thai (culture, art or way of life). Todd Lavell... is an American writer who provides an example of how a farang can be so Thai-like. His articles ... often underscore what is deemed to be the true value of Thainess, which is opposite to and more superior than that of farangness."

--Pavin Chachavalpongpun

Thai Professor, visiting Professor of SOAS, London University

Expert on Thai nationalism and Thai identity

Is there anything more that needs to be added...?

Apparently he didn't interview many foreigners living in Thailand. I'm American, and VERY PROUD of that Fact. I'm not blind to America's ugly deeds, but at the end of the day that's my Mother Country. That being said, I live now in Thailand and I Love it here too. It's kinda like the USA is my Mother and Thailand is my Wife. Ya love them both, you respect them both, but you never ever SELL OUT who you are and where you are from.

Anyone worth associating with respects one who keeps his identity in check so long as they respect others.

Its not rocket science, respecting your host nation's culture dose not mean giving up your own.

You do have some people however, usually outcasts and dregs from their own countries, who are more than happy to abandon their own culture and traditions, of which they never really felt a part of to begin with, for another where they can feel accepted.

Their host nations are probably better off without these type anyway.

[khunjamespittman]

So I was reading another thread where a poster's life was physically threatened because he stated that he did not stand up for the National Anthem at 6pm and it got me thinking that, reading these boards, it seems that many farang are very serious when it comes to Thai pride and Nationalism. Despite not having Thai citizenship and very few legal rights in the country, many farang appear ready to cut anyone's throat who does not feel the same level of Nationalistic pride as they do or does not wear the right color t-shirt.

And often it seems, that many of the principles they feel so passionately about, go against the Western social outlook of freedom of choice. Why is it that things you would never accept or believe in in your own country all of sudden become acceptable and enforcable to the death in Thailand?

Do you feel that you are more apart of Thailand than you were your own country?

I can only assume that dave9988 has never served in his country's military uniform. If he had put his life on the line for the freedom of his fellow countrymen I think he too, would have a deep national pride closeness to his fellow countrymen.

I guess the only comment I have for him is that I feel sorry for him.

[eggomaniac]

Well doesn't that beat all? While we agree Thailand is a very nationalistic country, my conclusion from many, many of the Topics and Posts in TV is exactly the opposite of your opinion. I find this Forum rife with visitors and expats who are actually upset with the very Nationalistic aspects of the Thai Nation. This is especially clear in the abundant Posts which complain about Visa restrictions and who think it is their human right free access to Thailand, the best jobs, luxury accommodations on $20 per day, and so on. Your 'premise' that there are staunch defenders is something I have not observed in here, very much.

You should copy and paste the posts that defend the Thai's rights to run their country their own way. It isn't hard to find the ones I am talking about.

As a matter of fact, two Topics I created to defend the right of Thais to define their own nationalism were closed by the moderators. My guess is there existence depends on the colonial life, which cheap food and labor all around. Yet, if some cheapskate posts he should be entitled to the same local pricing as Thais, he gets 8 pages of support.

Just because one guy was stupid enough to not stand during the anthem, you cannot conclude most expats are great supporters of of Thai nationalism. Where is the connection? Most of the topics in here complain and cry for change. You don't have to stand up, but you can drive on the right side of the road, as well, if you want; or wear your shoes in temples; or spit on a sidewalk in Singapore and get deported for it. Your OWN government website on international travel informs you to follow laws and customs of the countries you travel in. You DO this as respectful citizen of your own country. This is what your Topic is about; NOT anything to do with farang loyalties to Thailand???

That professor quoted above is pretty much bang on. I don't mind that we can enjoy a great lifestyle on Income that would be subsistence in home countries. It's all the bellyachers who complain it is not cheap enough for them that gets my goat. They want a 1rst class life on their 3rd class net worth.

I cheer when I see tougher visa restrictions to Thailand. The less backpackers and sex tourists; the better!

[Xangsamhua]

I cheer when I see tougher visa restrictions to Thailand. The less backpackers and sex tourists; the better!

Not taking issue with the rest of your post, but why pick on the backpackers? Aren't they just young people travelling the world? They wouldn't be a part of issues to do with nationalism, cultural sensitivity etc, would they, as they just move on? Am I right or out of touch? (I was a backpacker myself 40+ years ago. I think they were just called "travellers" then.)

[sassienie]

I don’t think that Farangs in Thailand are Nationalistic about any country.

It’s more rather the case that ex-pats in Thailand are suffering with an identity crisis problem and from culture shock.

Since living in Thailand I have experienced more discrimination or Farang prejudice from my fellow ex-pats, by their unwillingness to be sociable, friendly and sometimes blatant rudeness, than by Thai people.

Of course this does not pertain to all ex-pats, mostly to those who live outside the cities.

Excluding visa runners who I don’t consider as residents or ex-pats, in many cases Farangs living here for some reasons consider themselves superior to the Thais as the one and only and view other Farangs who encroach on their area as invading their space.

They are proud to be a part of their home countries but rather as patriots from afar and minus of feeling any brotherhood towards their own kind, but at the same time attempt to give semblance to the Thais that they are just one of the lads, the same as them in order to fit in. But in fact they don’t actually fit in to any world and suffer from confusion as to what they are, who they are and caught in the crossfire between the cultures of Farangland and Thailand.

[garro]

I love my home country, but try not to be overly nationalistic about the whole thing. I think that where we are born is matter of luck, but where we grew up is an important part of who we are. I enjoy living in Thailand and respect the culture and the people. I will never be Thai nor would I want to be. I do however respect the culture, and try and comply with any expectations that are expected of me while living in this country. Standing up for the National Anthem is part of the minimum requirement as far as I am concerned.

[Naam]

I respect the Thai pride and Nationalism, as a guest in this country. Same as I respect the house rules when I am a guest in someones house.

i second that!

[PhilHarries]

I always have a good laugh at these nationalistic threads on the forum.

On one hand you have those bleating on about how they go around humming the Thai national anthem or how they only ever eat Thai food. The "look at me, I am sooo much a Thai person and much more than the rest of you" ingratiates.

An on the other you have the negative <insert nation> bashers who whinge on about how their home country, and any other for that matter, is a pile of &lt;deleted&gt;. How Thailand is the best country on Earth and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.

What these dangleberries forget is that had they been born their Utopian nationality, Thai, they wouldn't be here on this forum. Chances are they'd be scratching out a living in some dingy, sweaty shophouse selling scudsy knickknacks to tourists with more money in their wallet than they'll earn in a year. Either that or they'd be selling their bodies to stinking fellow countrymen, or if they're lucky rich tourists, in some sleazy bar.

To these types I say go look at your bank balance or your pension and ask yourself where did that money come from?

Thailand? I don't think so. Even if you can claim you are earning your money from the country your education and start up funds came from your home nation. Be grateful, don't p1ss on the hand that helped you stand and take those first few steps down the road of life. You have seen more of the world that the average Thai will ever do and you have had an education that most Thais would cut off their right arm for.

As for the question in the OP. I am nationalistic about my home country and would defend it against all comers. As for Thailand I respect the nation, it's people in general and it's customs but I see things as they are warts and all.

As for the esteemed professor above I wonder which shop on the KSR he got his PhD from?

[Spiny]

" I always have a good laugh at these nationalistic threads on the forum.

On one hand you have those bleating on about how they go around humming the Thai national anthem or how they only ever eat Thai food. The "look at me, I am sooo much a Thai person and much more than the rest of you" ingratiates."

As this is cross-threaded, I think I should clarify my previous post regarding standing up for the National Anthem. I am surprised how many negative/angry reactions this simple act has caused on this forum.

I have lived and worked in Thailand since 1975, raised my childreb here, paid Thai taxes etc and consider myself fortunate in gaining PR and am now considering extending this to apply for Thai citizenship. My reasons for doing this are many, and this forum in not where I wish to discuss them.

As a requirement of acquiring citizenship process you are required to sing both the National Anthem and the King's Song played in the cinema's. Hence my attempts to sing along with both these songs. I am not doing this in order to draw attention to myself.

In no way do I consider myself superior to any other farang in Thailand nor do I exclusively eat Thai food. I must point out though, I have witnessed more and more farangs coming to settle here who have no interest in learning to understand Thai culture or be part of it. That is their choice and I have no intention of telling them how to behave.

[JSixpack]

why pick on the backpackers? Aren't they just young people travelling the world? They wouldn't be a part of issues to do with nationalism, cultural sensitivity etc, would they, as they just move on? Am I right or out of touch? (I was a backpacker myself 40+ years ago. I think they were just called "travellers" then.)

+1. Can't young people, mostly students, see something of the world despite their limited budgets? And it's nice having the backpackers around. They remind us that we were also young once--with all that implies.

[sassienie]

" I always have a good laugh at these nationalistic threads on the forum.

On one hand you have those bleating on about how they go around humming the Thai national anthem or how they only ever eat Thai food. The "look at me, I am sooo much a Thai person and much more than the rest of you" ingratiates."

As this is cross-threaded, I think I should clarify my previous post regarding standing up for the National Anthem. I am surprised how many negative/angry reactions this simple act has caused on this forum.

I have lived and worked in Thailand since 1975, raised my childreb here, paid Thai taxes etc and consider myself fortunate in gaining PR and am now considering extending this to apply for Thai citizenship. My reasons for doing this are many, and this forum in not where I wish to discuss them.

As a requirement of acquiring citizenship process you are required to sing both the National Anthem and the King's Song played in the cinema's. Hence my attempts to sing along with both these songs. I am not doing this in order to draw attention to myself.

In no way do I consider myself superior to any other farang in Thailand nor do I exclusively eat Thai food. I must point out though, I have witnessed more and more farangs coming to settle here who have no interest in learning to understand Thai culture or be part of it. That is their choice and I have no intention of telling them how to behave.

Spiny AND PhilHarries ARE THE SAME PERSON

[sassienie]

I always have a good laugh at these nationalistic threads on the forum.

On one hand you have those bleating on about how they go around humming the Thai national anthem or how they only ever eat Thai food. The "look at me, I am sooo much a Thai person and much more than the rest of you" ingratiates.

An on the other you have the negative <insert nation> bashers who whinge on about how their home country, and any other for that matter, is a pile of &lt;deleted&gt;. How Thailand is the best country on Earth and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.

What these dangleberries forget is that had they been born their Utopian nationality, Thai, they wouldn't be here on this forum. Chances are they'd be scratching out a living in some dingy, sweaty shophouse selling scudsy knickknacks to tourists with more money in their wallet than they'll earn in a year. Either that or they'd be selling their bodies to stinking fellow countrymen, or if they're lucky rich tourists, in some sleazy bar.

To these types I say go look at your bank balance or your pension and ask yourself where did that money come from?

Thailand? I don't think so. Even if you can claim you are earning your money from the country your education and start up funds came from your home nation. Be grateful, don't p1ss on the hand that helped you stand and take those first few steps down the road of life. You have seen more of the world that the average Thai will ever do and you have had an education that most Thais would cut off their right arm for.

As for the question in the OP. I am nationalistic about my home country and would defend it against all comers. As for Thailand I respect the nation, it's people in general and it's customs but I see things as they are warts and all.

As for the esteemed professor above I wonder which shop on the KSR he got his PhD from?

Spiny AND PhilHarries ARE THE SAME PERSON

[henryalleman]

I'm a guest in this country so I should behave accordingly. Even more so than Thai people. I do follow the social rules and etiquette very strict. I also keep myself low profile and always dress polite, therefore no shorts, no singlets and no slippers. I do this because I regard myself as an ambassador of my people therefore I'm bound to give a good impression of them. What I think privately is another matter.

For my own country, Flemings are not nationalistic or patriotic at all, its just not our culture; 99,9% not even know the Belgian national anthem.

Small anecdote they ask the Belgian PM ( Flemish speaker) to sing the Belgian national anthem, you may believe it or not he sing the wrong one. He sing the Anthem of France. Nobody was upset, we only laughed about it. Survey proved that 85% of the Flemish population not even knew witch date was the Belgian national holiday. I wonder if even the king know the words of the Anthem in Dutch.

[thaibeachlovers]

So I was reading another thread where a poster's life was physically threatened because he stated that he did not stand up for the National Anthem at 6pm and it got me thinking that, reading these boards, it seems that many farang are very serious when it comes to Thai pride and Nationalism. Despite not having Thai citizenship and very few legal rights in the country, many farang appear ready to cut anyone's throat who does not feel the same level of Nationalistic pride as they do or does not wear the right color t-shirt.

And often it seems, that many of the principles they feel so passionately about, go against the Western social outlook of freedom of choice. Why is it that things you would never accept or believe in in your own country all of sudden become acceptable and enforcable to the death in Thailand?

Do you feel that you are more apart of Thailand than you were your own country?

While I am not a part of Thailand, I'd certainly like to be, as I love it more than I ever loved my own country.

What social outlook of freedom of choice??? 1984 is increasing rapidly in the west!

I have much more choice in Thailand than ever I did in my PC country.

The last time I returned there ( my country, in the free west ), I was treated like a criminal for being a single man visiting Thailand. Bureaucratic scum.

This is not an unknown phenomenon, as English settlers in Ireland became more nationalistic than the original inhabitants.