Alleged Arms Smuggler Bout Testifies In Thailand

[LaoPo]

His hearing has been postponed until March because a couple of Thai Navy guys didn't show up to testify. By that time it would be a year in jail for him.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/8590...-off-till-march

We learned about that in post #18

LaoPo

[Plus]

Sorry

[bulltaco]

Im suprised that the russians aint got him out already.....

You know what now i have got cable iv been watchin alot of Fox News, i find it alot more acurate than either BBC or Al Ja thing... This is the best joke of 2008 calling Fox an trustworthy TV station. Did they not fabricate news items of cheering Iracis welcoming the US troops.

ill be keepin half of an eye on this and the other half on that and see if i can come up to speed..

but please continue the mud

Anyhow this Russsian guy is very lucky, because the normal CIA procedures is kindknbapping this guy and put him in some secret CIA flight to some secret torture jail in Roumania, Egypt or Syria (btw a so called terrorist state)

and what you say is very important. If the CIA wanted him dead, he would be. And what better place for him to "poof" is Thailand.

If you Google "what laws did viktor Bout break?" there is a Mother Jones article from a few years back, an interview with the guy who wrote the book about him. Very interesting, but Mother Jones is what it is......

There are layers and layers of this story that will never be told, and to look at this in a black and white sort of way is not the right way.... Here is what I think are some of the things that are really going on.....

1) If the CIA wanted him gone, he would be gone.

2) He is being put on display to make the Russians look bad

3) The Russians helped us do this because he pissed someone else off there and this is either about making him look bad OR maybe people that work with him, never underestimate that he is the pawn in a much larger game

4) The U.S. totally miscalculated and arrested him but don't know what to do with him... maybe after the arrest the U.S. govt. said "oh shit, our guy got arrested by some officers who did not know we are protecting this guy"

5) Another Russian is trying to take over his business and the easiest way was to work with the U.S. govt. to take him out

In any case, it is what it is......... If he gets off, probably #4 above

Most people posting here are missing the whole issue..... not that he was arrested and why he was arrested... those are surface issues..... peel the onion.... look deeper...... how the case ends will be what really happened.

another point is that if he was REALLY working with the U.S., what an ace card to hold when he gets to the U.S.... imagine that in court.... names, places, arms..... wow, what a story.... you think he will make it to the U.S. if this is true? Which makes me wonder why he just was not killed..... hummmmmmmm

[Kerryd]

Ouch..... A simple Google search will show he violated arms blockageds by the U.N., Blood Diamond trading etc.... not really all that hard.

What relevance does this have to the charges the USA is attempting to extradite him on?

Exactly. The US deliberately trumped up these charges. He could have been arrested on an Interpol warrant for the other crimes he allegedly committed, but he wouldn't have been sent to the US for trial on those charges would he ?

He would have been sent to the Hague or possible an EU court. Problem is, he's had too many dealings with too many countries, including the US, and most of them wouldn't want their dirty laundry made public. Hmmm, maybe that's why the US tried to forcibly smuggle him onto a plane and fly him out of the country last spring ?

And who is confusing the so called "check - counter check" between the US and Russia (add China in there too), with what Bout was allegedly trying to do ? So you are saying that if the US decides to send arms to one side of a conflict, and Russia decides to send arms to the other side, that's OK. But if an individual does the same thing that's just downright wrong ?

So for example, if the US (and EU) send weapons to Georgia, who uses those weapons to attack a separatist (and autonomous) province, that's OK. If Russia sends weapons to South Ossetia to defend themselves, that's OK. If Bout sells to both sides, he should be locked up for life ? (Oh but if a certain US agency contracted Bout to fly weapons in to South Ossetia nationalists to fight the Russians, that would be OK too, as long as he didn't deal with the other side as well.)

Why do you think the DEA had to set up a special, secret cell to try and entrap Bout ? It was reported in the other thread earlier in the year. Bout had too many dealings with other US "agencies" (doing their dirty work for them), that the DEA was worried those other agencies would tip him off about the impending sting.

And tell me, if he allegedly did all those other things (blood diamonds, violating embargoes, etc), why hasn't any of the other countries that supposedly want him arrested, come forward with warrants ? He's stuck in a Bangkok prison, surely if Interpol or someone else wanted to serve a warrant on him it should be fairly easy.

After all, Thailand has cooperated with Interpol and the police forces of various other countries quite often, yet in the 9 months since Bout's arrest, none have stepped forward to put in their own claims on him.

Does their silence not speak volumes ?

[bulltaco]

Ouch..... A simple Google search will show he violated arms blockageds by the U.N., Blood Diamond trading etc.... not really all that hard.

What relevance does this have to the charges the USA is attempting to extradite him on?

Exactly. The US deliberately trumped up these charges. He could have been arrested on an Interpol warrant for the other crimes he allegedly committed, but he wouldn't have been sent to the US for trial on those charges would he ?

He would have been sent to the Hague or possible an EU court. Problem is, he's had too many dealings with too many countries, including the US, and most of them wouldn't want their dirty laundry made public. Hmmm, maybe that's why the US tried to forcibly smuggle him onto a plane and fly him out of the country last spring ?

And who is confusing the so called "check - counter check" between the US and Russia (add China in there too), with what Bout was allegedly trying to do ? So you are saying that if the US decides to send arms to one side of a conflict, and Russia decides to send arms to the other side, that's OK. But if an individual does the same thing that's just downright wrong ?

So for example, if the US (and EU) send weapons to Georgia, who uses those weapons to attack a separatist (and autonomous) province, that's OK. If Russia sends weapons to South Ossetia to defend themselves, that's OK. If Bout sells to both sides, he should be locked up for life ? (Oh but if a certain US agency contracted Bout to fly weapons in to South Ossetia nationalists to fight the Russians, that would be OK too, as long as he didn't deal with the other side as well.)

Why do you think the DEA had to set up a special, secret cell to try and entrap Bout ? It was reported in the other thread earlier in the year. Bout had too many dealings with other US "agencies" (doing their dirty work for them), that the DEA was worried those other agencies would tip him off about the impending sting.

And tell me, if he allegedly did all those other things (blood diamonds, violating embargoes, etc), why hasn't any of the other countries that supposedly want him arrested, come forward with warrants ? He's stuck in a Bangkok prison, surely if Interpol or someone else wanted to serve a warrant on him it should be fairly easy.

After all, Thailand has cooperated with Interpol and the police forces of various other countries quite often, yet in the 9 months since Bout's arrest, none have stepped forward to put in their own claims on him.

Does their silence not speak volumes ?

YES !!!!

now you got it !!!!!

There is FAR more to this story than simple answers...... We will never know the truth. Is there anyone here who really believes that if Russia wanted him free, he would be free? Why get him in Thailand? Oh, far more to the story, best left to the people who have everyhting to gain and everything to lose with this matter. Maybe Bout is being held in exchange for an American being held in Russia that no one knows about............. Things like this happen for a reason, I find it hard to believe that given all the stuff we know that this is only about him... my gut tells me the show trial is about something far different.

[judgedredd]

Kerryd – Excellent observations and conclusions, however, please speculate an answer to this question - - "Why does Thailand allow America to set up stings in Thailand which do not relate in any way to suppressing crime within either Thailand or America"?

Apparently, Victor Bout committed no crime in Thailand, and, also apparently, Victor Bout has never even set foot on U.S. soil.

Regardless of the political intrigue (or moral or ethical questions regarding arms dealing) there is a point of law, a point of International Law, and I have two fundamental issues:

1.)Is the Kingdom of Thailand still responsible for its own sovereignty?

2.)Does the Kingdom of Thailand have a duty to protect equally all foreign visitors, especially from the actions of other foreigners?

I contend that USA's various three-letter agencies that operate here, CIA/DHS/FBI/DEA/ICE do so with no respect for the Kingdom, or its people, or for other foreign visitors. I further contend that the Thai government would be well within their rights if they expelled the Americans.

Look at this from a purely business point of view: If you are a non-American foreigner (Chinese, Indian, Russian, whatever) and if you decide to conduct a business meeting or a sales meeting in Thailand, are you at risk? And does that potential risk further tarnish the image of the Kingdom?

It is enough that every business visitor must respect the laws of Thailand and of his own home country; but does the Bout affair also mean that every business visitor to the Kingdom must also become fully versed in International Law as well as U.S. Law?

I'll bet that Victor is thinking, "...from now own, I will conduct my meetings in either Yangon or Pyung Yang..."

Submitted with tongue firmly in cheek,

Judge Dredd

Edited December 24, 2008 by judgedredd

[Kerryd]

Kerryd – Excellent observations and conclusions, however, please speculate an answer to this question - - "Why does Thailand allow America to set up stings in Thailand which do not relate in any way to suppressing crime within either Thailand or America"?

Submitted with tongue firmly in cheek,

Judge Dredd

I think the answer to that is easy enough.

The DEA approached the Thais and fed them a line of BS. The Thai police bought it (much like many countries bought the whole "Weapons of Mass Destruction, let's invade Iraq" story. Thailand has long cooperated with various enforcement agencies (DEA, Interpol, etc), as do many other countries.

Notice how right after Bout's arrest, Thailand announced they cancelled his (legally obtained) Visa, and were going to charge him with being in the country illegally ?

Then, not long afterwards, they announced they were dropping those charges. I don't recall if that was before or after the botched attempt to extradite Bout by forcibly putting him on a plane bound for the US (which was illegal under Thai law).

I think the Thais realised they'd been hood-winked and were trying to find a way out of the affair, without upsetting the US (or Russia).

This long, drawn out extradition proceeding could be Thailand's way of saying that they (Thailand) are in charge of what happens on their territory, and they (Thailand) will determine the outcome, regardless of the wishes of the US or Russia.

They were embarassed twice already (first with the arrest, second with the botched attempt to sneak Bout out of the country), and probably looking to make sure it doesn't happen again.

If they were to simply let him go (i.e. fly him to a neutral destination), Thailand would face criticism for allowing a major criminal to go free (wouldn't be the first time for that though).

If they let him go to Russia, they face criticism from the US, and possible backlash (i.e. reduced cooperation from the DEA et al).

If they hand him over to the US, then it's criticism from the Russians and again, possible backlash (Thailand does a lot of trade with Russia I understand, which is one of the reasons Russians now get a 30 Day Visa on Arrival as well, where it used to be the normal 15 day stamp).

So, caught between a rock and a hard spot, while being squeezed in a vice, Thailand is keeping Bout on ice, probably hoping some face-saving method of resolving the matter pops up (like a sudden heart attack or other incident).

[Richard W]

Look at this from a purely business point of view: If you are a non-American foreigner (Chinese, Indian, Russian, whatever) and if you decide to conduct a business meeting or a sales meeting in Thailand, are you at risk? And does that potential risk further tarnish the image of the Kingdom?

It doesn't just affect business visits - it is also a potential threat to genuine tourists.

[Briggsy]

Highly articulately put, KerryD, once again.

[i've never put the 'ignore' control on anyone after as few as 5 posts before. Can you guess who?]

[bulltaco]

Highly articulately put, KerryD, once again.

[i've never put the 'ignore' control on anyone after as few as 5 posts before. Can you guess who?]

If you are talking about putting me on ignore because I just joined this forum and you don't like what I have to say, then I would say you have the problem.

A few years ago I was in the U.S. emabssy on the Ambassadors side and was waiting for my meeting and struck up a conversation with the person next to me. He worked for the DEA and was there working with the Thai authorities up on the Burma border on drug interdiction. This was an ongoing program and is one of many between the Thai Govt. and the U.S.

Look at the resume’s of senior Thai leadership…. And military officers. If educated in the U.S. especially if they were considered to be of importance, chances are there was some sort of contact between them as a young student and some Intel branch of our Govt. Many senior military personnel in Thailand have worked directly with our military and other Govt. officials since the Vietnam war. So what’s the surprise here? Didn’t you know that? Are you that naïve that you think the Thais are being used by the U.S. or that maybe, just maybe they both get what they need out of the relationship. I don’t know what you do (or have done) for a living, but you certainly would not survive in my org, things are just too simple in your world.

Judgedredd......... your questions are easily answered. 1) Is the Kingdom of Thailand still responsible for its own sovereignty?

Yes. But the level of cooperation between the countries is far greater then meets eye. This is the case between most countries in the world and various other contries. If you have not worked at an executive level for a MNC (that's multi national corporation) then you would not know that large company's build relationships in the countires they operate and make deals all the time in order to function. The only thing a MNC needs to worry about is keeping within RICO laws and the laws of the country they operate in.

By the way, to claim Thialand was used etc. in this case.... I have not seen ONE piece of documentation to that satisfy me that this is the case. Beyond anti U.S. rants on this thread, I wish someone could point out a well documented and respectable analysis of what really happened. Until that point, your guesses are a heck of a lot worse than mine.

I guess my frustration stems from peoples posts that demonstrate an absolute lack of knowledge on how the system works.... don't believe me? Go back to the begining of this thread where poster chant "Free Viktor Bout".... unbelievable.

ok, your second question.... 2.)Does the Kingdom of Thailand have a duty to protect equally all foreign visitors, especially from the actions of other foreigners?

You single out Bout, but what about all the other people that are prayed upon by others? This goes on in every country in the world, every day. It seems you have been living in the village too long and have lost touch with reality.

Edited December 24, 2008 by bulltaco

[Kerryd]

By the way, to claim Thialand was used etc. in this case.... I have not seen ONE piece of documentation to that satisfy me that this is the case. Beyond anti U.S. rants on this thread, I wish someone could point out a well documented and respectable analysis of what really happened. Until that point, your guesses are a heck of a lot worse than mine.

Glad I was sober when I read that.

So, what documentation have you seen ? Did the DEA present you with the arrest warrant and detailed documents verifying that Bout was trying to sell various weapons to the FARC ?

Surely there must have been prior contact between the DEA and Bout, which would have been recorded and included as evidence that the purpose of his travel to Thailand was to deal arms to rebel terrorist factions ?

You don't just call up a suspected arms dealer on the phone and say "Hola Vic ! Lets meet in Bangkok because I want you to sell high-tech weapons to my rebel terrorist group. PS: Don't tell anyone else about this, OK ? See you there senor !"

This evidence must have been presented to the Thai police, to prove there was justification in arresting him. You must have seen that, to know and be satisfied that no one was pulling the wool over the eyes of the Thai police.

I think you also have a bug up your butt because you think the only reason people are opposed to this situation, is because they are "anti-American". I'll tell you now, if this had been a case of the Chinese doing something similar to an Aussie, or say the Russians were trying to do something similar to a Canadian, or Andorra was trying something similar to an Argentinian, I would be arguing much the same as I am now.

It's not (in my case) about "America", it just happens to be America in this case. For me, it's about a nation that seems to think it's laws apply to citizens of other nations even when outside of it's national boundaries. A nation that thinks it's laws should be enforceable in other nations.

Remember. This is about the Americans, using the Thai police, to arrest a Russian legally in Thailand, for allegedly conspiring to violate American Laws.

Not for violating International Laws. Not for violating UN embargoes. Not for violating Thai laws. But arrested for violating the laws of a country he has never even been to !

[bulltaco]

By the way, to claim Thialand was used etc. in this case.... I have not seen ONE piece of documentation to that satisfy me that this is the case. Beyond anti U.S. rants on this thread, I wish someone could point out a well documented and respectable analysis of what really happened. Until that point, your guesses are a heck of a lot worse than mine.

Glad I was sober when I read that.

So, what documentation have you seen ? Did the DEA present you with the arrest warrant and detailed documents verifying that Bout was trying to sell various weapons to the FARC ?

Surely there must have been prior contact between the DEA and Bout, which would have been recorded and included as evidence that the purpose of his travel to Thailand was to deal arms to rebel terrorist factions ?

You don't just call up a suspected arms dealer on the phone and say "Hola Vic ! Lets meet in Bangkok because I want you to sell high-tech weapons to my rebel terrorist group. PS: Don't tell anyone else about this, OK ? See you there senor !"

This evidence must have been presented to the Thai police, to prove there was justification in arresting him. You must have seen that, to know and be satisfied that no one was pulling the wool over the eyes of the Thai police.

I think you also have a bug up your butt because you think the only reason people are opposed to this situation, is because they are "anti-American". I'll tell you now, if this had been a case of the Chinese doing something similar to an Aussie, or say the Russians were trying to do something similar to a Canadian, or Andorra was trying something similar to an Argentinian, I would be arguing much the same as I am now.

It's not (in my case) about "America", it just happens to be America in this case. For me, it's about a nation that seems to think it's laws apply to citizens of other nations even when outside of it's national boundaries. A nation that thinks it's laws should be enforceable in other nations.

Remember. This is about the Americans, using the Thai police, to arrest a Russian legally in Thailand, for allegedly conspiring to violate American Laws.

Not for violating International Laws. Not for violating UN embargoes. Not for violating Thai laws. But arrested for violating the laws of a country he has never even been to !

If you did some fact checking you will see there is plenty of evidence of him violating many laws, both here and abroad..... but I cannot post the links here, just start out by using Goolge.....

So your thing is that you believe the evidence has not proven to your satisfaction... in many cases like this the evidence is NEVER shown to the outside world for fear of comprimising sources, intel, etc..... if you believe otherwise, you have a bu up your....... Like I said earlier, most people here have never worked in law or military intel and have no idea how these things work. Do you REALLy believe they went out and scooped him for no reason? Do you feel the world is a better place with this monster out there? Hey, when I can read the nasty stuff about this guy in Mother Jones, which is one of the most liberal mags out there, and read the nasty stuff about him in very conservative publications, let's face it, he is a bad guy. And he pissed some one off big time. Why do you think it is so unusal fo rthis to happen? My God, Thailand is 100 times worse on a daily basis than the U.S. when it comes to rule of law, we all know this. Ask the detainees in Gitmo.... not so long ago you would never have heard about them, now they get first class treatment because the libs want it that way.

What other country on earth treats their enemies so good? Russia? HA! Thailand? HA! far more people 'disappear" in the rest of the world... the U.S. plays straighter than anyone.... if they didn't, he would be dead by now. there would be no reason to get him at the hotel, just take him form the plane and never to be heard from again.

If you or anyone here has experience in even the simplest of intel duties in your past, please say so. Because you have not, you speak from ignorance about how the system works.

One last note, the evidence against Bout is huge and it will all come out in time. The time is not to feed you curiousity and show you all the cards... the wheels of justice turn slow, and when it is all over with you will look like a fool for your previous posts. The only way he gets off is if he spills the beans on everyhting and the Govt. of the world go after and break up his entire org plus a bunch of other players..... Just like the Mafia.... get one guy and then watch him squirm..... when he realizes he is screwed, watch him tell the story.... then he gets off and goes back to Russia...... Life in prison or spill the beans and go home... what would you do?

[Kerryd]

So your thing is that you believe the evidence has not proven to your satisfaction... in many cases like this the evidence is NEVER shown to the outside world for fear of comprimising sources, intel, etc..... if you believe otherwise, you have a bu up your....... Like I said earlier, most people here have never worked in law or military intel and have no idea how these things work. Do you REALLy believe they went out and scooped him for no reason? Do you feel the world is a better place with this monster out there?

You are the one telling us that you have not seen "ONE piece of documentation" that satisfies you that the US didn't spin the Thais a line of BS to get their aid in arresting Bout.

But then, it seems all the documentation you've seen is contained in "Mother Jones" ?

Is that why the Thai government suddenly backed down, and dropped their charges against Bout ?

And being a "straight up" nation, if Bout were to be brought to the US and put on trail, all (or most at least) of that evidence would have to be made available to his defence team, or he'd walk. And you just know he can hire some pretty high-priced lawyers. The prosecutors would have a hard time hiding all the evidence under the cloak of "National Security".

Not likely to get a conviction based on "We think he's a bad guy, but we aren't going to show you any proof of that."

Then again, if he was whisked of to Guantanamo, no need to worry about lawyers, due process, evidence, civil rights.

And if you'd paid attention to my previous posts (including in the other thread that started when Bout was first arrested), you'd KNOW that I have little doubt he is an arms dealer and has trafficked arms in violation of embargoes.

Is the world better off with him in jail ? One down, one hundred thousand to go. Judging by the number of IL-76s and AN-124s I see on a daily basis, I'm pretty sure his core operations are still functioning normally. I would highly doubt his whole organization would up and collapse just because he is in jail.

Hey, when I can read the nasty stuff about this guy in Mother Jones, which is one of the most liberal mags out there, and read the nasty stuff about him in very conservative publications, let's face it, he is a bad guy. And he pissed some one off big time. Why do you think it is so unusal fo rthis to happen?

If you or anyone here has experience in even the simplest of intel duties in your past, please say so. Because you have not, you speak from ignorance about how the system works.

So you are telling us you do work in "law or military intel" and that you have inside knowledge of the workings of this case ?

Well, I guess I should turn in my uniform and medals (though I don't wear them any more), because Mother Jones is the ultimate answer to those in the know about "law and military intel".

I've never said Bout was a good guy. But (as you should know) in certain "circles" one man's good guy is another's bad guy. I'm sure certain agencies of the US government thought Bout was a good guy when he was doing their bidding. Apparently it's OK to do illegal things, when it's US agencies asking you to do them.

Like this:

Largely under the auspices of the Pentagon, U.S. agencies including the Army Corps of Engineers and the Air Force, and the U.S.-led Coalition Provisional Authority, which governed Iraq until last summer, have allowed their private contractors to do business with the Bout network.

Four firms linked to the network by the CIA and international investigators have flown into Iraq nearly 200 times on U.S. business, government flight and fuel documents show. (that was back in 2004)

Which is funny, because even back then, the US knew about him and his (alleged) involvement in supplying arms to groups the US didn't support.

Did he piss someone off ? Obviously. Does he (did he) have friends in those certain "circles" ? Obviously, which is why the DEA had to set up the secret cell to catch him.

What is funny, is that I'll bet, if the situation were reversed and this was an American in jail, with the Russians trying to extradite him to Russia to face charges of violating Russian law (say for the exact same charges, just change "American" to "Russian"), you'd probably be screaming bloody blue murder about the injustice of it all.

[henryalleman]

If you did some fact checking you will see there is plenty of evidence of him violating many laws, both here and abroad..... but I cannot post the links here, just start out by using Goolge.....

So your thing is that you believe the evidence has not proven to your satisfaction... in many cases like this the evidence is NEVER shown to the outside world for fear of comprimising sources, intel, etc..... if you believe otherwise, you have a bu up your....... the last time they show their evidence to the entire world its was fabricated evidence of so called weapons of mass destruction. Even your own President confirmed it. The US intelligence is a joke, they knew about the plans of an terrorist attack on 7/11, but they did nothing with the information.

Like I said earlier, most people here have never worked in law or military intel and have no idea how these things work. Do you Really believe they went out and scooped him for no reason? Do you feel the world is a better place with this monster out there? Again the traditional US dehumanising and name calling, like monster, axes of evil and more of that.

Hey, when I can read the nasty stuff about this guy in Mother Jones, which is one of the most liberal mags out there, and read the nasty stuff about him in very conservative publications, let's face it, he is a bad guy. And he pissed some one off big time. Why do you think it is so unusal fo rthis to happen? My God, Thailand is 100 times worse on a daily basis than the U.S. when it comes to rule of law, we all know this. Ask the detainees in Gitmo.... not so long ago you would never have heard about them, now they get first class treatment because the libs want it that way. Are you realy believe this by yourself? All the world knew that they have been locked up without any prove of guilt , they even denied them the right to an defence lawyer.

What other country on earth treats their enemies so good? They not even treath their friends good just ask the Iraqi people.

Russia? HA! Thailand? HA! far more people 'disappear" in the rest of the world... the U.S. plays straighter than anyone.... Ai you kindly forget the secret CIA flights where they transport innocent people who they kidnapped to secret jails where they have been tortured.. if they didn't, he would be dead by now. there would be no reason to get him at the hotel, just take him form the plane and never to be heard from again.

If you or anyone here has experience in even the simplest of intel duties in your past, please say so. Because you have not, you speak from ignorance about how the system works. I have indeed no experience of intel duties but I can only see the results of US intelligence, and its a disgrace of human rights and of an blatant ignorance of the world outside the US. Or do you like to have a list of assassinations like Diem, or protections of dictators like Mobutu. and than I restrain myself not to write about MY LAI and Orange Green.

One last note, the evidence against Bout is huge and it will all come out in time. The time is not to feed you curiousity and show you all the cards... the wheels of justice turn slow, and when it is all over with you will look like a fool for your previous posts. The only way he gets off is if he spills the beans on everyhting and the Govt. of the world go after and break up his entire org plus a bunch of other players..... Just like the Mafia.... get one guy and then watch him squirm..... when he realizes he is screwed, watch him tell the story.... then he gets off and goes back to Russia...... Life in prison or spill the beans and go home... what would you do?

I know this is but the constant ranting about the superiority of the US comparing with other states make me sick. Because there was no other state in the last 50 years who created som luch misery and so many unilateral armed attacks on othhr countries as the US, only because they claime to protect US interests, Vietnam, Cuba, Laos,Cambodja, Panama, Irac, Grenada, the list is almost endless. And than I not yet mention there interfering in in the internal politics of other countries.They all do this in the name of democracy, but themselves refuses to recognize the international court of The Hague. In short the US is an rogue state. Who not only create war all over the world, but because their greed created an worldwide finacial crisis.

I know that I will be subjected myself to name calling, but the truth have to be said.

[bulltaco]

In the spirit of Christmas, no name calling, everyone can have their opinion.... I know nothing I will say will change your opinion, and same back to me.... So we agree to disagree......

[henryalleman]

In the spirit of Christmas, no name calling, everyone can have their opinion.... I know nothing I will say will change your opinion, and same back to me.... So we agree to disagree......

Merry Christmass to you also, and let 2009 a year in health and without worries for you and your loves ones;

And of course the same for all members of Thaivisa.

[themook]

could not find one of a smiley eating popcorn...

[usatrader]

If you did some fact checking you will see there is plenty of evidence of him violating many laws, both here and abroad..... but I cannot post the links here, just start out by using Goolge.....

So your thing is that you believe the evidence has not proven to your satisfaction... in many cases like this the evidence is NEVER shown to the outside world for fear of comprimising sources, intel, etc..... if you believe otherwise, you have a bu up your....... the last time they show their evidence to the entire world its was fabricated evidence of so called weapons of mass destruction. Even your own President confirmed it. The US intelligence is a joke, they knew about the plans of an terrorist attack on 7/11, but they did nothing with the information.

Like I said earlier, most people here have never worked in law or military intel and have no idea how these things work. Do you Really believe they went out and scooped him for no reason? Do you feel the world is a better place with this monster out there? Again the traditional US dehumanising and name calling, like monster, axes of evil and more of that.

Hey, when I can read the nasty stuff about this guy in Mother Jones, which is one of the most liberal mags out there, and read the nasty stuff about him in very conservative publications, let's face it, he is a bad guy. And he pissed some one off big time. Why do you think it is so unusal fo rthis to happen? My God, Thailand is 100 times worse on a daily basis than the U.S. when it comes to rule of law, we all know this. Ask the detainees in Gitmo.... not so long ago you would never have heard about them, now they get first class treatment because the libs want it that way. Are you realy believe this by yourself? All the world knew that they have been locked up without any prove of guilt , they even denied them the right to an defence lawyer.

What other country on earth treats their enemies so good? They not even treath their friends good just ask the Iraqi people.

Russia? HA! Thailand? HA! far more people 'disappear" in the rest of the world... the U.S. plays straighter than anyone.... Ai you kindly forget the secret CIA flights where they transport innocent people who they kidnapped to secret jails where they have been tortured.. if they didn't, he would be dead by now. there would be no reason to get him at the hotel, just take him form the plane and never to be heard from again.

If you or anyone here has experience in even the simplest of intel duties in your past, please say so. Because you have not, you speak from ignorance about how the system works. I have indeed no experience of intel duties but I can only see the results of US intelligence, and its a disgrace of human rights and of an blatant ignorance of the world outside the US. Or do you like to have a list of assassinations like Diem, or protections of dictators like Mobutu. and than I restrain myself not to write about MY LAI and Orange Green.

One last note, the evidence against Bout is huge and it will all come out in time. The time is not to feed you curiousity and show you all the cards... the wheels of justice turn slow, and when it is all over with you will look like a fool for your previous posts. The only way he gets off is if he spills the beans on everyhting and the Govt. of the world go after and break up his entire org plus a bunch of other players..... Just like the Mafia.... get one guy and then watch him squirm..... when he realizes he is screwed, watch him tell the story.... then he gets off and goes back to Russia...... Life in prison or spill the beans and go home... what would you do?

I know this is but the constant ranting about the superiority of the US comparing with other states make me sick. Because there was no other state in the last 50 years who created som luch misery and so many unilateral armed attacks on othhr countries as the US, only because they claime to protect US interests, Vietnam, Cuba, Laos,Cambodja, Panama, Irac, Grenada, the list is almost endless. And than I not yet mention there interfering in in the internal politics of other countries.They all do this in the name of democracy, but themselves refuses to recognize the international court of The Hague. In short the US is an rogue state. Who not only create war all over the world, but because their greed created an worldwide finacial crisis.

I know that I will be subjected myself to name calling, but the truth have to be said.

Now for an opportunity for my now semi-annual or less TV post to the America Lovers one and all.

the last time they show their evidence to the entire world its was fabricated evidence of so called weapons of mass destruction. Even your own President confirmed it. The US intelligence is a joke, they knew about the plans of an terrorist attack on 7/11, but they did nothing with the information.

Translated from Brimmy inter=nut viral blogospherism to proper Cambridge rational English, US intelligence willfully, with the proper information to prevent the attacks on Mumbia on 7/11, did NOT notify India of the attacks, willfully and on purpose, is that ludicrousness implied here despite the worlds media and India’s Government itself reporting exactly the opposite of that?

Now what was exactly the source of this intelligence, using the phrase most loosely?

It seems It is truly amazing how evil theses Americans are in willfully desiring others to be killed and terrorized isn’t it?

I know this is but the constant ranting about the superiority of the US comparing with other states make me sick.

It is, as often as not, within presumptions of both speakers and listeners that differentiate an affliction of superiority as being an illness on someones part, or otherwise.

Because there was no other state in the last 50 years who created som luch misery and so many unilateral armed attacks on othhr countries as the US, only because they claime to protect US interests, Vietnam, Cuba, Laos,Cambodja, Panama, Irac, Grenada, the list is almost endless.

And than I not yet mention there interfering in in the internal politics of other countries.They all do this in the name of democracy, but themselves refuses to recognize the international court of The Hague. In short the US is an rogue state. Who not only create war all over the world, but because their greed created an worldwide finacial crisis.

If greed be the root of current world Financial distress, its genes are indeed worldly and not uniquely nor as purposed conveniently American as falsely alleged in effectual origin, purpose or intent.

Cour internationale de Justice is the primary judicial organ of the United Nations, that renowned esteemed body of ineffectiveness, that far from partisanship and honest and fair dealings institution of waste and corruption, now that is the ticket for a “new world order.”

Oddly surreal is this assertion, since Article 93 of the UN Charter, states, all 192 UN members are automatically parties to the Court's statute. Plus, since the 1960s four of the five permanent members of the Security Council (France, Russia, the United Kingdom, and the United States) have always had a judge on the Court.

Likewise, since its inception, the key principle is that the ICJ has jurisdiction ONLY on the basis of consent BY ALL PARTIES, though by design it has no tools or means of enforcement. UN’s Article 36 outlines four bases on which the Court's jurisdiction may be founded.

Beyond its lack of enforcement mechanism and its lack of compulsory jurisdiction, is its prime directive, that allows its jurisdiction ONLY if ALL parties agree along with its inconsistencies of Judicial review, wherein it could see clearly an alleged unproven covert US operation in Nicaragua as deserving of “war reparations” while seeing, in legal foresight, Iran’s taking of a US embassy, its diplomats hostages as unworthy of merit and cause as being against international law and treaty.

Like the UN, it is prejudicial in and of its very design, giving a few the right to veto any action for whatever reason. This straw man logic used here is by no means a measure of any nations goodness nor evil, merely an excuse to blame as if it were a foregone conclusion as such.

I did note the use of the last 50 years 1958 to 2008. Oddly, and I am sure coincidentally, in terms of human misery death and tyranny, only second to the preceding period 1900 to 1958 I note in factual representation.

I lay at these misinformed and biased feet of straw man logic the following death, misery and unilateralism in comparison.

Europe and or of European origins:

Euro-centric death misery and unilateralism – 1900 to present day

Maji-Maji Revolt, German East Africa (1905-07): 175,000

Core:” Maintaining German Colonial unilateral expansionism.

Dutch East Indies, Aceh War (1873-1914): 70,000

Core:” Maintaining Dutch Colonial unilateral expansionism.

Congo Free State (1886-1908): 8,000,000

Core= “ Belgian Colonialism”

Herero War, German Southwest Africa (1904-07): 75,000

Anglo-Boer War (1899-1902): 75,000

Core:” Maintaining UK Colonial unilateral expansionism

Libya (1911-31): 125,000

Core:” Maintaining Italian Colonial unilateral expansionism.

Morocco (1921-26) 68,000

Core: “Maintaining French Colonial unilateral expansionism

Balkan Wars (1912-13): 140,000

Core:” Clash of competing Colonial unilateral expansionism.

First World War (1914-18): 15,000,000

Core= “Competitive clash of Euro-dopian empire building Unilateralism”

Portuguese Colonies (1900-25): 325,000

Core:’ maintaining Portuguese Colonialism.

French Colonies (1900-40) 200,000

Core:’ maintaining French Colonialism.

Abyssinian Conquest (1935-41): 400 000 Core:” Maintaining Italian Colonial unilateral expansionism.

Soviet Union, Stalin's regime (1924-53): 20,000,000

maintaining European style despotism.

East Germany (1949-89): 100,000

India, uprisings against UK (1919-38) 23,000

India (1947): 500,000

Core the beginning of the end of UK imperial unilateral colonialism.

Spanish Civil War (1936-39) and Franco Regime (1939-75): 465,000

Dictator Repression of opposition and clash of coming Nationalistic unilateral expansionism.

Second World War (1937-45): 55,000,000

Round two of the unfinished business of WWI in another clash of Euro-dopian and Asian dictatorship and nationalistic unilateralism.

Russo-Finnish War (1939-1940): 150,000

Russian unilateral expansionism.

Russo-Japanese War (1904-05): 130,000

Core:” Russian Imperial unilateral expansionism.

Russo-Polish War (1918-1920): 100,000

Russian Civil War (1917-22): 9,000,000

Core=” The death of European Imperialism verse the beginning of Communist ambitions for unilateral expansionism.

Russia Czarist empowerment (1900-17): 95,000

Russia (1994 et seq.) Both Wars in Chechnya 238,000

Hungarian Uprising (1956) 23,000

Czechoslovakia (1968) 780

Romania (1948-89): 150,000

Maintaining Communist unilateral expansionism

Northern Ireland, 3,580

North & South America

Colombia (1899-1902): 100,000

Mexican Revolution (1910-20): 1,000,000

Chaco War (1932-35): 100,000

Argentina, Military Junta (1976-83) 30,000

Colombia (1946-58): 200,000

Communist FARC/Narco insurrection:

Peru (1980-2000): 50,000

Communist Shining Path insurrection:

Nicaragua (1972-91): 60,000

Core “Communist ambitions for unilateral expansionism.

El Salvador (1979-92): 75,000

Core “Communist ambitions for unilateral expansionism

Guatemala (1960-1996): 200,000

Communist ambitions for unilateral expansionism

Cuba (1959 et seq.) 73,000

United States Lynchings (1900-50)

• 1952 World Almanac and Book of Fact, citing Tuskegee Inst. (sum of years 1900-50)

o Whites: 195

o Negroes: 1,791

o TOTAL: 1,986

Grenada, US invasion (1983) 68

Panama, US invasion (1989) 1,016

Asia

Boxer Rebellion (1899-1901): 115,000

Core:” Maintaining Colonial unilateral expansionism.

China, Warlord Era (1917-28): 800,000

Core=” vacuum of power struggle.

China, Nationalist Era (1928-37): 3,100,000

Rooted in Chinese fight for Power with communist and other competing parties.

Manchuria (1931-33): 60,000

Core:” Japanese unilateral territorial expansionism

Franco-Thai War (1940-41) 1,600

Chinese Civil War (1945-49): 2,500,000

Chinese nationalism verse Communist unilateral expansionism.

Tibet (1950 et seq.): 600,000

Core: “ Maintaining Chinese Communist unilateral expansionism.

South Korea (1948-49) 40,000

Korean War (1950-53): 2,800,000

Core “ WWII Allied apartheid of national boundaries and Chinese and North Korean Communist unilateral expansionism Verse first of many coming United Nations wars of deterrence.

First Indochina War (1936-45): 2,400,000

Core:” French and Japanese unilateral colonial expansionism

North Vietnam (1954-75): 50,000

Imposition of Uncle Ho’s Marxism

Communist opposition Repression

Second Indochina War (1945-54): 1,100,000

South Vietnam, Diem regime (1955-63) 5,000

Core French Colonialism return verse nationalist revolt overtaken by Communist ambitions for unilateral expansionism.

Vietnamese Civil War, internal phase, 1960-65, 300,000

The End European Colonialism and the beginnings of Communist ambitions & unilateral expansionism.

Third Indochina War (1960-72): 3,500,000

Core “Allied apartheid of national boundaries and Communist ambitions for unilateral expansionism Verse, all but US and a few allies acting in deterrence for an allied abandonment of Post WWII partitioning.

Vietnamese Civil War, “Post American Cease Fire War” final phase, 1973-75, 151,000

Vietnam, post-war Communist regime (1975 et seq.): 430,000

Maintaining Communist unilateral expansionism.

Sino-Vietnamese War (1979) 31,000

Cambodian Civil War (1970-75): 600,000

Core “Beginning of Communist ambitions for Vietnamese unilateral expansionism.

Cambodia, Khmer Rouge (1975-1978): 1,650,000

Civil war and Vietnamese unilateral expansionism

Cambodian Civil War (1978-91): 225,000

“Maintaining Communist ambitions for unilateral expansionism.

Laos, Pathet Lao regime (1975- ) 100,000

People's Republic of China, Mao Zedong's regime (1949-1975): 40,000,000

Communist opposition exterminations and ideological purification

East Timor, Conquest by Indonesia (1975-99): 200,000

Core Religious expansionism and destruction of opposing faiths.

Burma/ Myanmar (1948 et seq.): 130,000

Maintaining unilateral dictatorships

Indonesia (1965-66): 400,000

Communist ambitions for unilateral expansionism

Mongolia (1939) 28,000

Mongolia (1926-1991): 35.000

Middle East & Near East

Greco-Turkish War (1919-1922): 250,000

Core:” Clash of competing Colonial unilateral expansionism.

Turkey (1925-28) 145,000

Core: “ Colonial unilateral expansionism Ethnic suppression and insurgency

Armenian Massacres (1915-23): 1,500,000

Core= “ Islamic Middle Eastern Unilateralism.”

Greek Civil War (1943-49): 158,000

Yugoslavia, Tito's Regime (1944-80): 200,000

Maintaining dictator communist unilateral expansionism.

Lebanon (1975-90): 150,000

Israel Wars of independence (1948 et seq.): 65,000

Core:” WWII allies colonial pre-domination and post war policies of colonial independence and relocation of the Jewish problem out of Europe.

Sri Lanka (1977-) 65,000

Algeria (1954-62): 537, 000

Core:” maintaining French imperial unilateral colonialism.

Algeria (1992-2002): 100 000

Sudan (1955-72): 500,000

Core the beginning of the end of UK imperial unilateral colonialism.

Bosnia and Herzegovina (1992-95): 175,000

Iraq (1960s) 105,000

The age of coupe and dictators

Iran (1978-79) Overthrow of the Shah 52,000

Iran-Iraq War (1980-88): 1,000,000

“Saddam Hussian’s ambitions for unilateral expansionism.

Iran (1979-) 62,000

Purging of opposition and western influenced elite

Iraq (1968) 2,000

purge pf Ba’th party

Iraq, Saddam Hussein (1979-2003): 300,000

Iraq, Shia rebellion in south (1991-92): 40,000

Iraq (1990-2003): 350,000

Gulf War (1990-91) 75,000

UN back world coalition sent to repress Iraq unilateral expansionism

Afghanistan (1979-2001): 1,800,000

Core “Russian Communist ambitions for unilateral expansionism.

3rd Anglo-Afghan War (1919) 3,800

Bangladesh (1971): 1,250,000

Core:’ leftover British Colonial unilateral colonialism to fester religious conflicts

Kurdistan (1980s, 1990s): 300,000

Croatia (1991-92) 25,000

Azerbaijan (1991-95) 18,000

Georgia, the former Soviet one (1992-95) 7,150

Kosovo (1998-99) 7,500

NATO mandated intervention into Muslim and Serbian genocide

Africa

Congo Crisis (1960-64): 100,000

Rwanda and Burundi (1959-95): 1,350,000

Core Tribal unilateralism World bleed heartlessly in narcissistic.

Angola (1961-75): 80,000

Anti- Euro-dopian Colonialism

Angola (1975-2002): 550,000

Core Civil war aided by Castro’s Communist unilateral expansionism.

Uganda, Idi Amin's regime (1972-79): 300,000

maintaining Dictatoral power

Ethiopia (1962-92): 1,400,000

Nigeria (1966-70): 1,000,000

Liberia (1989-97): 150,000

Mozambique (1975-1992): 1,000,000

Mozambique, Anti-

Euro-dopian colonial war (1961-75)

North Yemen (1962-70): 100,000

Chad (1982-90): 40,000

Uganda (1979-86): 300,000

Somalia (1991 et seq.): 400,000

Somalia, Mohammed Abdulla Hasan (1899-1920): 100,000

Somalia (1969-90): 50,000

Rhodesia (1972-79) 23,000

Eritrea-Ethiopia War (1998-2000) 70,000

Sudan (1983 et seq.): 1,900,000

Sierra Leone (1991-2002): 75,000

--------------------

International Terrorism (1980-99) U.S. State Department: 9,255

Terror attacks worldwide

2005----2006-----2007

11,156---14,570--14,499

People worldwide killed as a result of terror attacks

14,616--20,872---22,685

http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/crt/2007/103716.htm

A man who would walk down darken alley ways named “what he thinks he knows” and “what he does not know,” is a man with a narrowed view, closed in, and, limited by darkened unawareness of both idioms.-Trader

Happy New Year!

CAPSL (Cool Aid Derangement Syndrome Land)

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm

Not Thailand related; Topic Closed?

[khundon]

If you did some fact checking you will see there is plenty of evidence of him violating many laws, both here and abroad..... but I cannot post the links here, just start out by using Goolge.....

So your thing is that you believe the evidence has not proven to your satisfaction... in many cases like this the evidence is NEVER shown to the outside world for fear of comprimising sources, intel, etc..... if you believe otherwise, you have a bu up your....... the last time they show their evidence to the entire world its was fabricated evidence of so called weapons of mass destruction. Even your own President confirmed it. The US intelligence is a joke, they knew about the plans of an terrorist attack on 7/11, but they did nothing with the information.

Like I said earlier, most people here have never worked in law or military intel and have no idea how these things work. Do you Really believe they went out and scooped him for no reason? Do you feel the world is a better place with this monster out there? Again the traditional US dehumanising and name calling, like monster, axes of evil and more of that.

Hey, when I can read the nasty stuff about this guy in Mother Jones, which is one of the most liberal mags out there, and read the nasty stuff about him in very conservative publications, let's face it, he is a bad guy. And he pissed some one off big time. Why do you think it is so unusal fo rthis to happen? My God, Thailand is 100 times worse on a daily basis than the U.S. when it comes to rule of law, we all know this. Ask the detainees in Gitmo.... not so long ago you would never have heard about them, now they get first class treatment because the libs want it that way. Are you realy believe this by yourself? All the world knew that they have been locked up without any prove of guilt , they even denied them the right to an defence lawyer.

What other country on earth treats their enemies so good? They not even treath their friends good just ask the Iraqi people.

Russia? HA! Thailand? HA! far more people 'disappear" in the rest of the world... the U.S. plays straighter than anyone.... Ai you kindly forget the secret CIA flights where they transport innocent people who they kidnapped to secret jails where they have been tortured.. if they didn't, he would be dead by now. there would be no reason to get him at the hotel, just take him form the plane and never to be heard from again.

If you or anyone here has experience in even the simplest of intel duties in your past, please say so. Because you have not, you speak from ignorance about how the system works. I have indeed no experience of intel duties but I can only see the results of US intelligence, and its a disgrace of human rights and of an blatant ignorance of the world outside the US. Or do you like to have a list of assassinations like Diem, or protections of dictators like Mobutu. and than I restrain myself not to write about MY LAI and Orange Green.

One last note, the evidence against Bout is huge and it will all come out in time. The time is not to feed you curiousity and show you all the cards... the wheels of justice turn slow, and when it is all over with you will look like a fool for your previous posts. The only way he gets off is if he spills the beans on everyhting and the Govt. of the world go after and break up his entire org plus a bunch of other players..... Just like the Mafia.... get one guy and then watch him squirm..... when he realizes he is screwed, watch him tell the story.... then he gets off and goes back to Russia...... Life in prison or spill the beans and go home... what would you do?

I know this is but the constant ranting about the superiority of the US comparing with other states make me sick. Because there was no other state in the last 50 years who created som luch misery and so many unilateral armed attacks on othhr countries as the US, only because they claime to protect US interests, Vietnam, Cuba, Laos,Cambodja, Panama, Irac, Grenada, the list is almost endless. And than I not yet mention there interfering in in the internal politics of other countries.They all do this in the name of democracy, but themselves refuses to recognize the international court of The Hague. In short the US is an rogue state. Who not only create war all over the world, but because their greed created an worldwide finacial crisis.

I know that I will be subjected myself to name calling, but the truth have to be said.

dam_n ! I always thought that US borders stopped wherever they decided to put their troops. (Which is mostly everywhere.)

You learn something new every day.

Happy 2009 to all.

[Briggsy]

According to an article in the current edition of Time, Mr Bout is now writing his memoirs.

[Kerryd]

According to an article in the current edition of Time, Mr Bout is now writing his memoirs.

Maybe he'll get it smuggled out, one page at a time, like that Aussie bloke (allegedly) did.

He'd have a hard time selling his memoirs though, as they've already done a movie about him and his (alleged) activities. He's not in the kind of business where it would be worthwhile to divulge any secrets that would help competitors (or get former clients pissed off at him), so it's not likely he'd drop any "bombshells" in his memoirs.

Life is too short to be helping the hangman put the noose around your own neck ! (Potential ThaiVisa "Quote of the Day")

Maybe he'll write about the injustice of a system that allows certain nations to try and enforce their laws on the citizens of other nations, even outside of their national boundaries.

Or about the injustice of a system that allows convicted criminals, even murderers, to get out of jail on bail, but keeps a man who has committed no crime locked up at the request of another country ?

He may want to keep any criticisms to himself until after this matter is resolved though.

[ourmaninbangers]

lets this man out.... if he goes to jail so should alot of people in the USA/ europe

the way the USA manipulates the world, and here in thailand is amazing and disgusting

[myfriendyou]

Don't confuse the 'check, counter check' moves the Soviets and American play to this day with supplying the FARC with weapons to kill civilian targets. This guy is a BAD guy, and the Govt. would not spend their time and efforts going after him if he wasn't.

The only legal asymmetry I can see is that Bout is charged with 'conspiring to kill Americans, conspiring to kill U.S. officers or employees', which further boils down to 'conspiring to kill Americans other than officers or employees of the US government'. So, are you saying that the difference is that those supplying the Afghan Mujahideen in the days of Communist rule were not conspiring to kill citizens of the Soviet Union other than officers or employees of the Soviet government?

Ouch..... A simple Google search will show he violated arms blockageds by the U.N., Blood Diamond trading etc.... not really all that hard.

I think you need to turn Fox News off

[Briggsy]

Good piece in the Bangkok Post today. Sorry I couldn't find it on the online version.

What stood out was the bizarre comments from the presiding judge. If I remember correctly he stressed the importance of international relations in deciding whether or not to go ahead with the extradition request then he added that any decision he makes may affect his and his family's ability to obtain visas to travel abroad.

The article also mentioned a key witness next week speaking at the hearing would be an official from the Foreign Ministry. As I stated last year, this case will definitely not be decided on legal merits but on which country between Russia and the US applies the most favourable carrot and the smallest stick.

Poor old Viktor's been locked up for a year now. He's lost a lot of weight apparently.

[ntfeeney]

Is the next hearing tomorrow or wednesday - Ive seen both reported. Should be 9am either day. Thanks. -N

Good piece in the Bangkok Post today. Sorry I couldn't find it on the online version.

What stood out was the bizarre comments from the presiding judge. If I remember correctly he stressed the importance of international relations in deciding whether or not to go ahead with the extradition request then he added that any decision he makes may affect his and his family's ability to obtain visas to travel abroad.

The article also mentioned a key witness next week speaking at the hearing would be an official from the Foreign Ministry. As I stated last year, this case will definitely not be decided on legal merits but on which country between Russia and the US applies the most favourable carrot and the smallest stick.

Poor old Viktor's been locked up for a year now. He's lost a lot of weight apparently.