1 Year Non-b Visa Rule Changes In Penang

[yumidesign]

time to move to laos

a friend recently emailed me from luang prabang where he has just bought land in his own name, an american from alaska, to set up a restaurant and has been allowed a reduction to about 12,000 us investment, the rules say 100,000 us, which allows a work visa at nominal charges. could be an isolated case but sounds like laos is looking for foreign investment at the moment even on small scale. very progressive

[george]

This topic is not about where to move. This topic is about NON-B Multiple Visas.

Please keep on topic, and no politics or other off-topics in this thread

Thanks!

[MyphuketLife]

We have today received confirmation from the Thai Consulate in Penang that they will now require the company to show 8 million baht in registered capitalization as well as a valid work permit to obtain a one year multiple entry NON-IMM B (business) visa.

They have indicated that these are the MINIMUM requirements for the visa and they can still deny applications at their discretion (as always).

We are currently checking with the Embassy in KL to see if similar restrictions have been applied.

This is absurd. If I didn't know and love so many good Thai people I would want to say 'f*** them, let their economy crash and burn". About a year ago I started a thread here about my problems getting a non-B visa in Penang and was accused of being a F-up because I (incorrectly) blamed the agent. Using the same papers and application in the USA I had my visa in ten minutes. My screen name is DivinGuy but I am a SW engineer and did nothing but shut down my business in the US and restart it here at half-price to my clients. I had two million baht paid up capital. I do nothing but bring money to Thailand. I take no jobs away from anyone because my work is based on expertise in a few specific areas and connections in the US.

I am watching my friends suffer because exports are dropping and tourism (a MUCH smaller slice of the pie) is dropping, too. <deleted> are these idiots thinking? Are they that unaware of the problems Thailand is facing? Thailand didn't make these problems but still has to deal with them. Over the next couple of years the country will need all the income it can get. People like me do nothing but supply a small cash infusion

Eight million baht? So what does someone like me, but who doesn't want to go back to their home country, do? Create a fantasy that their expertise is worth six million baht?

I have never been part of the "They hate us, let's go home" camp, but this, finally, is pushing me that way. I stayed quiet about the 90/180 rule, I stayed quiet about the 15 days at a land border rule, but this is ridiculous. To all you lovers of the Thai Immigration Dept., please tell me how this will benefit the country or people.

(Mods I am sorry. If this post is too inflammatory then please delete it, but don't ban me. I am a long time member with few posts.)

This is just one consulate. As far as I know, it is still quite easy to go back to the US once a year and receive your multiple entry, non-immogrant B visa at one of the many consulates. Stay away from the big places like LA, NY and Chicago because it is very diffucult. The cost has steadily gone up and is now $175 US.

Has anyone tried to make a complaint regarding this matter? Before everyone screams "yeah right" I can assure you that when LA was randomly changing the rules in 2005 the consular was recalled because of the number of complaints.

DivinGuy, maybe in your frustration you exaggerate a bit when you say you got the visa in an hour? I have worked with most of them in the US and even knew some consulars personally and I still waited a day for my visa.

Stileo, Thai consulates in the US have areas of responsibility and it is common for them to refuse service if you do not have proof of residence in there area. Not too hard to get around but sometimes causes problems. Also, Chicago is not a big consulate in the same sense as LA and NY;much less business. Finally, if you take away Chicago, NY, LA and the Embassy, all the others are actually honorary consulates.

I have gotten 3 in the US, and the longest it ever took me was 30 minutes.... Although it was from a small consular office

[donbruno]

I fully concur. Perhaps when viable options (for foreieners in Thailand) are no longer pleasing, a more drastic and permanent decision will occur. including a change of location.

My name is Bruno R. ROPSY, originally from Belgium, I live in Thailand in Pattaya since 28 dec 1998

in few days... ten years...

my business is since more than 4 years 360 degrees Virtual Reality Pictures....Panos, etc, I began also Aerial Photography but alone no real development

but too much is too much

I renew yesterday my workpermit for the last time...as usual 3 months,... just for few days to avoid problem for my current customers in Thailand

Indeed, thai workpermit renewed all the 3 months after crossing border (mostly cambodia) even with my yearly non B visa got each year in Monaco...

Thai immigration doesn't give me more even with the asset of cie at 3 millions baht already, 4 staff members (unneeded in my case)...

bua, fed up!!!!!!

7 jan 2009 Big Move!!!!

I want ear english even if my mother language is french, and not anymore, "mot", "mayme", "melou", "maipenlai",

what I call the "4M-Land" give me now more stress than joy that I got ten years earlier after arriving, fed up of communism in my original country

I create a new company in september 2008 in Penang MALAYSIA, got a TWO YEARS VISA and WORKPERMIT

no stress, no staff needed

(one of the last thai one's, stole me arround 1 million baht of nikon gear last month of may, police put him in jail, but was financially out with the help of his gay french protector, no comment)

for instance, I asked since more than 5 years to be integrated in thai photographer group to exchange experience etc... impossible ...I'm a farang...

In less than 2 months lived in Penang I got that,

no racism in MALAYSIA, whatever black-indian face, yellow-chinese, white-foreigner, inbetween-malay.....really a welcoming country!!!!!!

TWO years visa and Workpermit, no hassle, no reentry permit, no obligation to visa run every three months, just logically respect the law ...as I always make in my life,

I love Thailand but YES, today you definitively can count me in the group of people who think that they don't respect farang anymore

"LET THE THAI PLAY WITH THEMSELVES" .... is what I think from now

rememberance of the T-shirt I bought in LA in july 1984 before the olympics "let the russian play with themselves"

The staff (only needed) I will find in Malaysia will speak fluently english, hasn't the brain rewashed every night, I will not have to rebegin every morning to repeat....

and will not be in front of this feodal thai social system that make my thai marketing staff loosing face so often in front of marketing managers from customers a little upper in the thai system...

as so often I didn't won contract because never I gave "enveloppes", I never accept a staff of a potential customer company fuc_king his own boss or cie!!!! NEVER

I gave up

Really happy to begin a new life in Malaysia

as some of you said already, they will maybe understand at the accounting hour (in few months) of this huge catastrophy-cal season running....

but as ALL taking the same decision as me, it is too late, no way back....

and I'm not a big structure but only a very small one

I'm not 50 years old,

I'm not russian or older....

good luck to survivors...

Bruno

[NanLaew]

This is absurd. If I didn't know and love so many good Thai people I would want to say 'f*** them, let their economy crash and burn". About a year ago I started a thread here about my problems getting a non-B visa in Penang and was accused of being a F-up because I (incorrectly) blamed the agent. Using the same papers and application in the USA I had my visa in ten minutes. My screen name is DivinGuy but I am a SW engineer and did nothing but shut down my business in the US and restart it here at half-price to my clients. I had two million baht paid up capital. I do nothing but bring money to Thailand. I take no jobs away from anyone because my work is based on expertise in a few specific areas and connections in the US.

I am watching my friends suffer because exports are dropping and tourism (a MUCH smaller slice of the pie) is dropping, too. <deleted> are these idiots thinking? Are they that unaware of the problems Thailand is facing? Thailand didn't make these problems but still has to deal with them. Over the next couple of years the country will need all the income it can get. People like me do nothing but supply a small cash infusion

Eight million baht? So what does someone like me, but who doesn't want to go back to their home country, do? Create a fantasy that their expertise is worth six million baht?

I have never been part of the "They hate us, let's go home" camp, but this, finally, is pushing me that way. I stayed quiet about the 90/180 rule, I stayed quiet about the 15 days at a land border rule, but this is ridiculous. To all you lovers of the Thai Immigration Dept., please tell me how this will benefit the country or people.

(Mods I am sorry. If this post is too inflammatory then please delete it, but don't ban me. I am a long time member with few posts.)

What is your problem here ? If you run a company here, you should not need to leave and renew your work permit & visa outside of Thailand. You can either do it at immigration in Bangkok or at the BOI one stop service centre.

I have been here for 11 years on a work permit & visa, running a company and at no point have I had to leave the country to renew my visa & work permit.

Of course, if you don't have a work permit & are working here illegally, then it would be an issue.

Good point Pedro. We assume also that your business is a more 'traditional' model and you pay your local and business taxes here as well.

Possibly, there's a growing 'internet only' style businessman who maybe thinks that being technically 'invisible' also means avoiding paying taxes in your new chosen business domicile. I am not saying DivinGuy is tax delinquent but claiming that ones business brings new revenue to Thailand or any country usually means that you are also morally responsible for paying business taxes in that country no? Maybe the new visa regulations are an easier 'deterrent' to this new, under-the-radar business enterprise rather than sending tax collectors on a wild goose chase trying to catch a 'businessman' (read internet-only entrepreneur) in his 'office' (read hotel room or internet cafe) or imposing draconian rules and limits on a foreigners local access to and use of the internet?

OK, off topic, sorry George!

Edited December 24, 2008 by NanLaew

[MeetJohnDoe]

Thailand is not the only game in town.

So why are you in Khon Keon

I agree Malaysia is nice...FOR A VISIT...and infrastructure is good and the people are friendly...but I can't live in a place where its turkey bacon for breakfast and chicken hotdogs everywhere

As has been mentioned already, this policy is just at one consulate so far that has had a rep for a long time now of being strict with the rules as it gets lots of applications from the farang jetsom and flotsom the washes up in Thailand. If one has a legit and valuable business, getting the required visas in one's home country should not be any problem and obtaining a WP and renewals in-country should not be an issue.

[MickeyHolland]

What is your problem here ? If you run a company here, you should not need to leave and renew your work permit & visa outside of Thailand. You can either do it at immigration in Bangkok or at the BOI one stop service centre.

I have been here for 11 years on a work permit & visa, running a company and at no point have I had to leave the country to renew my visa & work permit.

Of course, if you don't have a work permit & are working here illegally, then it would be an issue.

Hi,

This is interesting, i really did not know that it's possible to get a new Non Im B visa inside Thailand.

Can you please tell me where i can find more info about Bangkok Immigration Visas rules, procedures and what is BOI ?

Thanks !

[Lite Beer]

Hi,

This is interesting, i really did not know that it's possible to get a new Non Im B visa inside Thailand.

Can you please tell me where i can find more info about Bangkok Immigration Visas rules, procedures and what is BOI ?

Thanks !

You can get 12 month extensions of stay if you qualify. 2.1

[Roachiebkk]

One of my staff returning from Germany applied for her non B visa, even though she is based in Vietnam it is always easier if my staff have Non B's as well. She was given a huge list of new requirements instead of our normal one page company letter. This time she was required to supply Company Registration, Facts and Figures for the last 3 months and copy of Passport and their signature of the person inviting them. We didn't have time to go through all that fuss so she ripped up that form and applied for a multi-entry tourist visa instead, the Thai staff just smiled and said 'Welcome to Thailand'.

[Robroy]

2-3 years ago I had an English friend who always went to the Penang consulate.

He'd wait till it was closed, deposit some money & minimal paperwork with a security guard (who told him which counter to go to - some were 'good', some were 'bad' - then come back next day for his visa.

He was very happy with this arrngement - tho I don't know if it still operates.

[Morris]

There is still a good place to apply for a multi NON-B and that is of course your home country. All the Thais want is that you would visit your family back home once in a while. 5555

Another thing is, Thai LOGIC does not exist!

Research has shown that in Thailand, there is no clear sign of a logic way of thinking coming from the Thai.

I would love to know, what kind of companies are most people running that stay out of luck in Thailand?

[ekkamai]

For the past two years my husband and I have obtained our retirement visa in Europe. Each time it took 10-15 minutes. we didn't even meet the 800K requirement. Goes to show that there is a BIG difference between the way the laws and rules are being applied at different consulates.

[Boater]

well my visa runs out on the 8 th Jan , and all my new documents are ready to get a 1 year visa again in Penang !.....

well lets see what happens

[Loaded]

Wherever you live in the world if you are not a national of that country, there are many hoops to jump through. Thailand is no different from any other country in that respect. A Thai trying to open a restaurant in London would have as many regulations, rules and requirements to open his/her business as we have here to run our bars and restaurants here. Lack of communication is a frustrating reality of living here but we still need to obey THEIR rules.

[PeaceBlondie]

As a retired bureaucrat, I usually suspect there is a fairly logical reason for a local agency tightening its rules. Pressure from above, too much workload, a new local boss. So it seems to be only Penang for now.

However, these are crazily abnormal times, and some Thai officials near the top of Immigration Police or the Foreign Ministry may panic and try to protect Thailand's fragile, failing work force. 2009 may not be a good year for friendly regulations for foreigners. Anywhere in the world. Whether or not it is logical.

[austhai]

We have today received confirmation from the Thai Consulate in Penang that they will now require the company to show 8 million baht in registered capitalization as well as a valid work permit to obtain a one year multiple entry NON-IMM B (business) visa.

They have indicated that these are the MINIMUM requirements for the visa and they can still deny applications at their discretion (as always).

We are currently checking with the Embassy in KL to see if similar restrictions have been applied.

If you allready have a valid work permit, you do not need to go to Penang. It's obviously for new applications.

[dbrenn]

What is your problem here ? If you run a company here, you should not need to leave and renew your work permit & visa outside of Thailand. You can either do it at immigration in Bangkok or at the BOI one stop service centre.

I have been here for 11 years on a work permit & visa, running a company and at no point have I had to leave the country to renew my visa & work permit.

Of course, if you don't have a work permit & are working here illegally, then it would be an issue.

Absolutely right! I stayed in Thailand for years extending a single non-imm B without ever having to return to a foreign embassy for a new non-B.

In order to work legally in Thailand, you don't need a multi-entry non-B at all. What you need is just a single entry, so that you can apply for a work permit and then extend your stay each year in Thailand without having to go to Penang or any other foreign embassy. Of course, this does mean that tou have to pay tax and go through the official channels to get the work permit, but you have to do that everywhere else.

I guess that Thailand realises that multi-entry non-imm B visas are completely unnecessary to those really intending to work legally by completing the process and getting the work permit once in Thailand. All you need is yearly extensions on a single entry non-B visa to stay in Thailand as long as you have your job. Not unlike job dependent business visas in most other countries, US, UK, Aus for example. The only difference I can see in the Thai system is that you need to get a separate work permit, as well as a separate re-entry permit if you want to leave Thailand on such a visa, but that's no big deal if you are working and meet the criteria. Western countries tend to roll the initial entry/re-entry/ work permit into a single business visa, which makes it a one stop shop BUT they often have very rigorous criteria in which an applicant has to prove he is not taking a job from a local, have his skills recognised by a formal body, undergo stringent medical and criminal record checks and so on. My medical to get my Thai work permit involved a doctor just resting his stethoscope against my shirt while asking me if I felt OK. There was no criminal record check, no reference checks, no background checks - nothing.

Thailand is actually one of the easiest places to get legal, provided you have something to offer.

I can't think of anywhere that issues 'multi entry' work visas and lets people renew them forever without having paid tax or completed the process by getting a work permit onshore.

What's everyone complaining about?

Edited December 24, 2008 by dbrenn

[Duangta]

Can anybody post the papers required to extend your single entry 3 month Non Imm B at the local immigration office???

[dbrenn]

Can anybody post the papers required to extend your single entry 3 month Non Imm B at the local immigration office???

So long as you and your employer have met the ctiteria and obtained a work permit at the local Department of Labour office. In Bangkok, visas and work permits are dealt with in the same office, but in the provinces you might have to go to the Labour Department and Immigration offices separately. Regards posting the forms here, you are far better off to go to any reputable local law office, who will advise you on the criteria, do all the paperwork for you and guide you through the application process. All you then have to do is show up at the department, sign things, pay the fees, smile and be nice to people and it's done.

If you are extending after the first year, you will need to show evidence that you have paid personal income tax for the preceding year.

Edited December 24, 2008 by dbrenn

[pedro01]

I run a software company. We pay tax, our employees pay tax and I pay tax.

The BOI is a government organisation that gives privileges to companies doing business in certain areas and certain fields. One of the privileges is being able to go to their own little immigration office & renew your visa & work permit in a few hours.

Basically, your first non-immigrant B is something you get before you come here, then you apply for the work permit and then you just renew them annually - or rather, you pay your lawyer to sit in the queues for you.

This rule does not affect anyone with a legitimate business in Thailand as they would not have to go to Penang annually. It's just putting more of a squeeze on those using a fictional company to get their annual visas.

[vitalia]

What is your problem here ? If you run a company here, you should not need to leave and renew your work permit & visa outside of Thailand. You can either do it at immigration in Bangkok or at the BOI one stop service centre.

I have been here for 11 years on a work permit & visa, running a company and at no point have I had to leave the country to renew my visa & work permit.

Of course, if you don't have a work permit & are working here illegally, then it would be an issue.

I have to agree. Multiple Visas are convenient for those that need to travel out of the country on business from time to time and help to avoid all the hassles of getting a single re-entry each time. Furthermore, as other posters have commented here, this "news" seems to be only relevant (if indeed it is confirmed as truth) to visa runners who go to Penang for that very purpose, hence skirting the laws of this country. I suspect that Thai Embassies in Singapore and other major cities have never heard of such news anyhow.

Another poster made comments about how much the Thai economy would be hurt by the loss of 51/49 foreign run small businesses with paid up cap at 2 million. I suspect that most of these companies are not really benefiting the Thai economy at all.

Perhaps they should consider the kinds of business being operated instead of the amount of capital involved? for example, businesses that bring in X number of tourists or X in foreign currency from exports (these are statements we make on our WP applications as well). In other words, prove your worth to the country. Prove WHY you need to have a multiple re-entry visa. Prove WHY you should be given a work permit and the right to stay here long term. Remember, you are a guest in this country.

[jitenshaman]

it has absolutely nothing to do with immigration or with "new" rules...it is just Penang, and whatever the powers that be regarding Penang are playing with...i just came back from the US from a Thai Consulate, got a non B with a basic form letter, absolutely nothing else asked for...maybe the folks up in Vientiane are paying off the folks down in Penang to ensure their profits continue to rise...

[pedro01]

What is your problem here ? If you run a company here, you should not need to leave and renew your work permit & visa outside of Thailand. You can either do it at immigration in Bangkok or at the BOI one stop service centre...

I am not sure I understand that first part - I have a work permit with a 1 year non-immigrant visa that lets me come & go whenever I want.

I've never heard of a work permit being tied to a single-entry visa. I get multiple entries as standard when I renew.

[dbrenn]

, this "news" seems to be only relevant (if indeed it is confirmed as truth) to visa runners who go to Penang for that very purpose, hence skirting the laws of this country. I suspect that Thai Embassies in Singapore and other major cities have never heard of such news anyhow.

Perfectly true. A bona-fide businessman would not be doing visa runs to Penang, and Thai immigration knows this full well. Only people wanting to stay and work illegally on a shoestring budget and avoiding tax do that.

I mean, we all know that there are those who want to get around the rules and stay in a country unchecked and indefinitely in the 'Resident Tourist / Unpermitted Worker' category that has existed in Thailand for so long, even when they don't qualify, and in doing this they avoid paying the taxes that everyone else has to pay. What puzzles me is why these people howl so much in protest and deride Thailand so vigorously when the rules are, finally, enforced.

[thaiphoon]

QUOTE (vitalia @ 2008-12-24 13:28:35)

What is your problem here ? If you run a company here, you should not need to leave and renew your work permit & visa outside of Thailand. You can either do it at immigration in Bangkok or at the BOI one stop service centre.

I have been here for 11 years on a work permit & visa, running a company and at no point have I had to leave the country to renew my visa & work permit.

Of course, if you don't have a work permit & are working here illegally, then it would be an issue.

This only works if your Thai registered company employs 4 Thai employees. Otherwise you cannot renew your Non B visa in Thailand because as part of the process Immigration will check out the number of staff your company employs with the Labour Department. It has nothing to do with paying taxes or being legal. I have been here for 4 years now and have no choice because of the rules but to renew Non B visa OUTSIDE Thailand. Welcome to Thailand ...

[Duangta]

I agree, the rules are straight forward and I believe I follow them word by word.

BUT the rules are bend and enforced/not enforced depending always on the officials you talk to.

For example this year I had to apply for new work permits for our company (change of owner&employees). Everything was OK, all the papers were there (Balance sheet, income statement, insurance, taxes, visas, etc.) But at the labor department the Big Boss said he wants to have 4000 Baht per WP, otherwise he would delay the process indefinitely. We paid. I know of others who don't, they are still waiting for their WP, the process will take about 5 months for them. In the meantime they will "not work". Impossible for me as I am very visible with my business (office at the main road, marketing, etc.)

Same in Penang in November: Got all the papers in order and at the Visa Agency they said, I should wait for 2 days, as the "good officer" will be back by then.....

So if the existing rules would be applied as they are, non dependable on location, personnel and situation then I agree: this is an easy country to work in. As this is not, it makes life unpredictable and investments insecure.

[dbrenn]

QUOTE (vitalia @ 2008-12-24 13:28:35)

What is your problem here ? If you run a company here, you should not need to leave and renew your work permit & visa outside of Thailand. You can either do it at immigration in Bangkok or at the BOI one stop service centre.

I have been here for 11 years on a work permit & visa, running a company and at no point have I had to leave the country to renew my visa & work permit.

Of course, if you don't have a work permit & are working here illegally, then it would be an issue.

This only works if your Thai registered company employs 4 Thai employees. Otherwise you cannot renew your Non B visa in Thailand because as part of the process Immigration will check out the number of staff your company employs with the Labour Department. It has nothing to do with paying taxes or being legal. I have been here for 4 years now and have no choice because of the rules but to renew Non B visa OUTSIDE Thailand. Welcome to Thailand ...

True, there are criteria on extensions. The fact that this is getting harder and harder indicates that Thailand feels that the locals can cover for this non-exporter-SME-insufficient-Thai-employing sector of industry, and is putting the squeeze on people who don't measure uip to its criteria - large, employing locals, exporting, and so on. Squeezing in this way serves to put pressure on people to meet the criteria or move on. Thailand simply doesn't view a person who purportedly runs a limited company, but is in fact a sole proprieter with no or very few local employees, as bona fide with respect to its immigration laws.

The unequal application of a standard (you can get a WP with less than 4 but not the visa) probably has more to do with lack of coordination between government departments than anything else. But, the message is very clear - Thailand is making it hard on people who don't meet its immigration standards for foreign workers who might be competing for jobs with the locals, or who can't step up to complying with the rules. I know that this sounds hard, but it's a definite trend, and its the same in most other parts of the world. Immigration Law the world over is there to differentiate between people with purely selfish national interest as the only objective. It's the same everywhere, only harder in most other places.

Edited December 24, 2008 by dbrenn

[beechguy]

Perfectly true. A bona-fide businessman would not be doing visa runs to Penang, and Thai immigration knows this full well. Only people wanting to stay and work illegally on a shoestring budget and avoiding tax do that...

You requirements maybe grandfathered because you have been on "extension of stay" for so long. But, it is impossible (Not just my opinion! Reference previous posts by Sunbelt) for a new business owner to get an "Extension of Stay" the first year or maybe longer because of regulation changes in 2006. It brought about requirements other than the 4 employees, etc.

So, some "Bona Fide" business people will find themselves doing visa runs if they don't get a one year multi-entry outside of the region.

At any rate, this is in regards to Penang only. It's simple enough to apply at some other consulate.

[mooshcat]

You need to get your first non-b outside thailand. If sunbeltasia is correct, about the 8m capitalization of the company pushing you into a higher tax band, are they saying no more foreign controlled SME companies?

[beechguy]

You need to get your first non-b outside thailand. If sunbeltasia is correct, about the 8m capitalization of the company pushing you into a higher tax band, are they saying no more foreign controlled SME companies?

At this point it appears to be a Penang only situation. Also, you have to get your Non-b's outside of Thailand at a consulate. You can only get a change of visa inside Thailand if you meet the "Extension of Stay" requirements.