Any Non-native Speakers As Teachers Here On This Forum?

[jirikoo]

Hi teachers,

sorry for coming back, rehashing back and forth the same questions.

well, i am new to this forum as you may have learnt and still balancing my teaching prospects in Thailand.

After I have done a little random research of ads on ajarn.com and herein and I am becoming a bit sceptical.

The majority of the employers obviously require a degree and being a native speaker. The former's quite undisputable and I got already some info about that. The latter is still a pain in the neck.

Are here on this forum any non-native English speakers who taught, teach or are about to teach in Thailand and are in similar situation? If so, please I would like to know your experience or any comments.

No whining, I am just serious about teaching English in Thailand and will do my best to land job in Thailand.

[PeaceBlondie]

jirikoo, some of our non-native teachers read the forum but are not registered. Or, they registered their names and are too shy to post, or to admit they are not native speakers. I encourage them to either post on this thread, or send you a PM (private message)

[Loaded]

If you arrive with a positive attitude then my observation is that you will find work. However, I'm sure you realise that if two equally qualified teachers go for the same job but one is a native speaker and the other is not, then the one who is dressed the better and acts more 'politely' will get the job! TiT!!!

[Xangsamhua]

If you arrive with a positive attitude then my observation is that you will find work. However, I'm sure you realise that if two equally qualified teachers go for the same job but one is a native speaker and the other is not, then the one who is dressed the better and acts more 'politely' will get the job! TiT!!!

Hear, hear! NNS have an important role in the TESOL profession/industry/enterprise/whatever.

There simply aren't enough degreed NS speakers around for Thai schools to be fussy about nativeness.

In any case, you don't have to teach English. Bilingual/EP schools employ NNS teachers to teach Maths, Science etc in English.

Apart from that, a well-spoken, suitably qualified (degree is enough here), enthusiastic and well-presented NNS teacher will find satisfactory work anywhere in Thailand. It helps if they can write correctly on the black/whiteboard as well. Some NNS who speak well have problems with writing and need to factor that into their lesson planning.

[Firelily]

Take the IELTS exam, and if you can show proof of a band score of 8 or 9 when applying, it will make your application a lot stronger.

It also helps if your degree is in education or something related.

And of course when it comes to your demo class, it has to be very convincing.

[fred2007]

I am just being curious what is a native english speaker? I guess it would be the UK or USA or Australia

and so on. But over here we have teachers ( english ) they come from India, Phillipines,Malaysia, and other countries. Ok pick on me but I can't understand any of them

[sensei]

But over here we have teachers ( english ) they come from India, Phillipines,Malaysia, and other countries. Ok pick on me but I can't understand any of them

Pick on you?

You ought to spell English with a capital E and the Philippines with a single L and with a double P. You shouldn't leave a space before or after the word that you have enclosed in the parenthesis. Ok should be written as OK or okay.

You are making a generalization here.

If you can't understand ANY of US then there might be something wrong with YOU.

[jirikoo]

But over here we have teachers ( english ) they come from India, Phillipines,Malaysia, and other countries. Ok pick on me but I can't understand any of them

Pick on you?

You ought to spell English with a capital E and the Philippines with a single L and with a double P. You shouldn't leave a space before or after the word that you have enclosed in the parenthesis. Ok should be written as OK or okay.

You are making a generalization here.

If you can't understand ANY of US then there might be something wrong with YOU.

did Fred say he was a teacher or a native speaker? I would just condone his errors. Nobody is perfect. (Gee, how I detest this phrase)

[sensei]

did Fred say he was a teacher or a native speaker? I would just condone his errors. Nobody is perfect. (Gee, how I detest this phrase)

Fred is Australian.

[fred2007]

But over here we have teachers ( english ) they come from India, Phillipines,Malaysia, and other countries. Ok pick on me but I can't understand any of them

Pick on you?

You ought to spell English with a capital E and the Philippines with a single L and with a double P. You shouldn't leave a space before or after the word that you have enclosed in the parenthesis. Ok should be written as OK or okay.

You are making a generalization here.

If you can't understand ANY of US then there might be something wrong with YOU.

did Fred say he was a teacher or a native speaker? I would just condone his errors. Nobody is perfect. (Gee, how I detest this phrase)

I am not worried about his reply there is always some one out here just waiting for a

Poster to make a spelling mistake

Maybe next time I answer in German and let him correct me then.

And Fred is not Australian by birth he just lived there for a number of years.

[Mario2008]

Loaded gives sound advice. I'm a non-native speaker myself and although I volunteer, I would have no problem finding a paid job as a teacher. With native speaker they often mean white person, speaking reasonable English.

But what is a native speaker anyway. The UK and USA are two countries divided by a comon language and a lot of schools don't have a clue about which English they teach, UK, USA, Australian...

[PeaceBlondie]

Do not forget that the Scots, Irish, Canadians, New Zealanders, South Africans, and others are native speakers. Maybe even Belizeans or Jamaicans, but that is stretching it.

[Mario2008]

Correct PB. And a lot of students find it easier to converce with me in English than with a native speaker.

[Xangsamhua]

Many Australians, Americans, Britons, etc are not native speakers. My wife is a NNS Australian. My son's first language was not English (he went to Australia at the age of two and a half). I know this is being picky, but the question "What is a native speaker?" lends itself to pickiness. It's a substantial question but it can trail off in so many directions.

The Welsh linguist, Alan Davies, in "The Native Speaker and Applied Linguistics", says that everyone has the same mother tongue - "Universal Grammar" (UG), i.e. the fundamental hardwired capacity to generate systematic language (ref. Chomsky's mentalism). With that capacity we learn and develop our first "language", i.e. the local dialect of a mainstream language or, in some cases, a creole (e.g. Glaswegian, Oklahoman, Tasmanian, Siciliano, Phu Thai, Jamaican Creole, Tok Pisin). Note the saying: "A language is a dialect with an army and navy".

Some people are born into bilingual or multilingual environments and have, effectively, more than one native language. Some have the gift of language acquisition and can speak, read and write it at an advanced level, though non-native accented if it's been learnt post-adolescence.

A poster to this sub-forum recently reported that his/her school no longer hired Australians because their accent was too difficult. Presumably they were speakers of "Broad Australian", an accent native to about 34% of the Australian population (about 11% have a "Cultivated Australian" accent and 55% a "General Australian" accent - 1965 data). Perhaps there were other reasons for the "no Aussies" policy.

Native speakers and non-native speakers alike present a wide range of intelligibility and literacy skills. Some of the worst spellers I've seen have been native speakers. I have also had to learn to adjust to some strong accents among native speaker colleagues. I've witnessed some bizarre phonics lessons where e.g. Mancunians and Australians have tried to give examples for a grapho-phonic rule that simply contradict each other. I've also heard a teacher from one part of the UK "correct" children's pronunciation when it would be quite acceptable to another UK citizen in the next classroom, and certainly to an Australian or North American.

As I said, talk about the native speaker question can go on and on....

Edited January 25, 2009 by Xangsamhua

[skybluestu]

Many Australians, Americans, Britons, etc are not native speakers. My wife is a NNS Australian. My son's first language was not English (he went to Australia at the age of two and a half). I know this is being picky, but the question "What is a native speaker?" lends itself to pickiness. It's a substantial question but it can trail off in so many directions.

The Welsh linguist, Alan Davies, in "The Native Speaker and Applied Linguistics", says that everyone has the same mother tongue - "Universal Grammar" (UG), i.e. the fundamental hardwired capacity to generate systematic language (ref. Chomsky's mentalism). With that capacity we learn and develop our first "language", i.e. the local dialect of a mainstream language or, in some cases, a creole (e.g. Glaswegian, Oklahoman, Tasmanian, Siciliano, Phu Thai, Jamaican Creole, Tok Pisin). Note the saying: "A language is a dialect with an army and navy".

Some people are born into bilingual or multilingual environments and have, effectively, more than one native language. Some have the gift of language acquisition and can speak, read and write it at an advanced level, though non-native accented if it's been learnt post-adolescence.

A poster to this sub-forum recently reported that his/her school no longer hired Australians because their accent was too difficult. Presumably they were speakers of "Broad Australian", an accent native to about 34% of the Australian population (about 11% have a "Cultivated Australian" accent and 55% a "General Australian" accent - 1965 data). Perhaps there were other reasons for the "no Aussies" policy.

Native speakers and non-native speakers alike present a wide range of intelligibility and literacy skills. Some of the worst spellers I've seen have been native speakers. I have also had to learn to adjust to some strong accents among native speaker colleagues. I've witnessed some bizarre phonics lessons where e.g. Mancunians and Australians have tried to give examples for a grapho-phonic rule that simply contradict each other. I've also heard a teacher from one part of the UK "correct" children's pronunciation when it would be quite acceptable to another UK citizen in the next classroom, and certainly to an Australian or North American.

As I said, talk about the native speaker question can go on and on....

I think it's fair to say that when schools request that applicants are native speakers they expect their first language to be English. I am from England and am currently working as an English Teacher and I am the only native English speaker, the other x3 English Teachers are from the Philippines. I don't pretend to be an expert on the English language & grammar and don't have a PhD in Linguistics but I don't need to be, I teach basic English Conversation to 8-12 year olds. But I do think that if English is your first language and one that you have spoken all your life it is definitely an advantage over someone whose first language isn't English. The Filipinos at my school are good at English but far from perfect, they make numerous mistakes with pronunciation and grammar every day when talking to me and also when teaching/talking to the students. I know this isn't the case at every school and there are many good NNS who are teaching English but IMHO I think it's more likely that a native speaker would make a better English teacher than a NNS.

[Xangsamhua]

I think it's fair to say that when schools request that applicants are native speakers they expect their first language to be English. I am from England and am currently working as an English Teacher and I am the only native English speaker, the other x3 English Teachers are from the Philippines. I don't pretend to be an expert on the English language & grammar and don't have a PhD in Linguistics but I don't need to be, I teach basic English Conversation to 8-12 year olds. But I do think that if English is your first language and one that you have spoken all your life it is definitely an advantage over someone whose first language isn't English. The Filipinos at my school are good at English but far from perfect, they make numerous mistakes with pronunciation and grammar every day when talking to me and also when teaching/talking to the students. I know this isn't the case at every school and there are many good NNS who are teaching English but IMHO I think it's more likely that a native speaker would make a better English teacher than a NNS.

I think you're probably right, all things being equal (relevant qualifications and/or experience, teaching ability, personal qualities, etc).

Assuming these things are equal, the native speaker has what has been labelled "authenticity of language" - an important attribute for a teacher of English. However, if you have a trained, experienced, pedagogically able and English-competent teacher who is also a native speaker of the students' first language, you have a very valuable asset. That teacher hasn't the same "language authenticity", but has "pedagogical authenticity". He or she knows what it's like for, say, a Thai student to learn English.

Unfortunately, there aren't many of these people around. There probably aren't all that many other NNS (outside some near balanced-bilingual Europeans - Dutch, Finns, etc.) from other nations either that fit that profile, but there are quite a few that are quite competent both as speakers and teachers.

A good teacher who is also a native speaker (and whose language ability is suited to teaching) clearly has an advantage over a good teacher who is not native and whose English ability is less than fully "authentic". However, the latter can do a very good job teaching the content areas (e.g. Maths) in English.

[Ijustwannateach]

OP, to the extent that this country has a large number of Thai English teachers who can barely hold a basic conversation, I agree with you that there is a place for you somewhere in the TEFL world here. However, your OP itself reveals so many basic errors that I am sure the Thai students in the better EP programs- and even in some of the better regular programs- (and of course the international schools) would notice them, and that would be the end of you at those schools (and quite rightly so). Stick to teaching younger students or in more rural parts of Thailand, or in the richer private schools for dumb rich kids- but don't fool yourself that not being a native speaker has made no noticeable difference in how you communicate. If you were to work on your English- perhaps by further ongoing study, though the level at which you need improvement is high school, not tertiary, work- then you might have further options.

On a more practical note, if I were you I would look for any job ads offering less than 25K for a native speaker, anywhere. Ads in such ignorance of the marketplace reveal a management that is so out-of-touch that they will be forced to settle for anyone who can produce a fair bit of anything they might recognise as English.

I realise that this post may seem a bit cynical, but I think it's an accurate depiction of the OP's situation.

[skybluestu]

I think it's fair to say that when schools request that applicants are native speakers they expect their first language to be English. I am from England and am currently working as an English Teacher and I am the only native English speaker, the other x3 English Teachers are from the Philippines. I don't pretend to be an expert on the English language & grammar and don't have a PhD in Linguistics but I don't need to be, I teach basic English Conversation to 8-12 year olds. But I do think that if English is your first language and one that you have spoken all your life it is definitely an advantage over someone whose first language isn't English. The Filipinos at my school are good at English but far from perfect, they make numerous mistakes with pronunciation and grammar every day when talking to me and also when teaching/talking to the students. I know this isn't the case at every school and there are many good NNS who are teaching English but IMHO I think it's more likely that a native speaker would make a better English teacher than a NNS.

I think you're probably right, all things being equal (relevant qualifications and/or experience, teaching ability, personal qualities, etc).

Assuming these things are equal, the native speaker has what has been labelled "authenticity of language" - an important attribute for a teacher of English. However, if you have a trained, experienced, pedagogically able and English-competent teacher who is also a native speaker of the students' first language, you have a very valuable asset. That teacher hasn't the same "language authenticity", but has "pedagogical authenticity". He or she knows what it's like for, say, a Thai student to learn English.

Unfortunately, there aren't many of these people around. There probably aren't all that many other NNS (outside some near balanced-bilingual Europeans - Dutch, Finns, etc.) from other nations either that fit that profile, but there are quite a few that are quite competent both as speakers and teachers.

A good teacher who is also a native speaker (and whose language ability is suited to teaching) clearly has an advantage over a good teacher who is not native and whose English ability is less than fully "authentic". However, the latter can do a very good job teaching the content areas (e.g. Maths) in English.

I agree, in a perfect world an English teacher would be able to speak their student's first language proficiently as well as being a fluent English speaker but, like you said yourself, these types of people are few and far between, especially in Thailand. And as this website is predominantly used by people living/working in Thailand I think we should concentrate on Thailand and the truth is that the average Thai students English is usually quite poor. A native English speaker who is also a qualified teacher in their home country is more than likely going to seek employment at one of the international schools paying a significantly higher wage than the 25-30,000 Baht that most government or bilingual schools currently pay or even go elsewhere in Asia like many are doing so. So that leaves us with the other type of people, like myself, who I believe are the majority of people currently teaching in Thailand, who are not qualified Teachers in their own country but, as a native English speaker, have one distinct advantage over a NNS whether you agree or not. So when schools ask for a native English speaker it is because that persons English is more than likely going to be of a higher standard than a NNS, we all know that isn't always true but surely you can understand that the odds are that a native English speaker will probably have a better command of the English language, grammar and pronunciation than a NNS.

[Xangsamhua]

I agree, in a perfect world an English teacher would be able to speak their student's first language proficiently as well as being a fluent English speaker but, like you said yourself, these types of people are few and far between, especially in Thailand. And as this website is predominantly used by people living/working in Thailand I think we should concentrate on Thailand and the truth is that the average Thai students English is usually quite poor. A native English speaker who is also a qualified teacher in their home country is more than likely going to seek employment at one of the international schools paying a significantly higher wage than the 25-30,000 Baht that most government or bilingual schools currently pay or even go elsewhere in Asia like many are doing so. So that leaves us with the other type of people, like myself, who I believe are the majority of people currently teaching in Thailand, who are not qualified Teachers in their own country but, as a native English speaker, have one distinct advantage over a NNS whether you agree or not. So when schools ask for a native English speaker it is because that persons English is more than likely going to be of a higher standard than a NNS, we all know that isn't always true but surely you can understand that the odds are that a native English speaker will probably have a better command of the English language, grammar and pronunciation than a NNS.

Once again, I think you're probably right in regard to the Thai scene. I think, though, that while native-speakerness is a good thing in a language teacher it is neither necessary nor sufficient. One could be NNS and still do a good job of teaching English or through English; one could also be NS and not have much to offer other than authentic language. I suppose my position is simply that good teaching ability combined with language competence is better than language competence without the ability to teach well. And, believe me, I'm not saying that people without teacher training cannot be good teachers. The training certainly helps, but I can see from experience that there are people who have a gift for teaching and who've had to learn on the job.

You may also be surprised at the number of people who are qualified teachers who do not work in international schools. They come to Thailand to teach Thai kids. They may be young people who want some life experience before going back to work in their home country or do postgraduate degrees. They may be retired people or people approaching retirement age. They may also be people who have a year or two away from their jobs on leave without pay. At least where I am, none of these people, if they're classed as native speakers, would be working for 25K - 30K a month. I would think that a NS teacher salary at a bilingual school in Bangkok would range from about 30K - 50K plus whatever benefits one gets as an overseas hire or local hire.

[jirikoo]

OP, to the extent that this country has a large number of Thai English teachers who can barely hold a basic conversation, I agree with you that there is a place for you somewhere in the TEFL world here. However, your OP itself reveals so many basic errors that I am sure the Thai students in the better EP programs- and even in some of the better regular programs- (and of course the international schools) would notice them, and that would be the end of you at those schools (and quite rightly so). Stick to teaching younger students or in more rural parts of Thailand, or in the richer private schools for dumb rich kids- but don't fool yourself that not being a native speaker has made no noticeable difference in how you communicate. If you were to work on your English- perhaps by further ongoing study, though the level at which you need improvement is high school, not tertiary, work- then you might have further options.

On a more practical note, if I were you I would look for any job ads offering less than 25K for a native speaker, anywhere. Ads in such ignorance of the marketplace reveal a management that is so out-of-touch that they will be forced to settle for anyone who can produce a fair bit of anything they might recognise as English.

I realise that this post may seem a bit cynical, but I think it's an accurate depiction of the OP's situation.

Dear Ijustwannateach, will you do me a favor and correct my "basic mistakes" that you found in my original post? I acknowledge some interpunctions and articles missing, but that is that. My post might not have sounded as well natural since i typed it quickly and did not do proofreading. You don't want me to go back and revise all your posts for grammatical errors, do you?

Thanks for taking your time, anyway. Hold fast, my friend.

jirikoo

[jirikoo]

I think it's fair to say that when schools request that applicants are native speakers they expect their first language to be English. I am from England and am currently working as an English Teacher and I am the only native English speaker, the other x3 English Teachers are from the Philippines. I don't pretend to be an expert on the English language & grammar and don't have a PhD in Linguistics but I don't need to be, I teach basic English Conversation to 8-12 year olds. But I do think that if English is your first language and one that you have spoken all your life it is definitely an advantage over someone whose first language isn't English. The Filipinos at my school are good at English but far from perfect, they make numerous mistakes with pronunciation and grammar every day when talking to me and also when teaching/talking to the students. I know this isn't the case at every school and there are many good NNS who are teaching English but IMHO I think it's more likely that a native speaker would make a better English teacher than a NNS.

I think you're probably right, all things being equal (relevant qualifications and/or experience, teaching ability, personal qualities, etc).

Assuming these things are equal, the native speaker has what has been labelled "authenticity of language" - an important attribute for a teacher of English. However, if you have a trained, experienced, pedagogically able and English-competent teacher who is also a native speaker of the students' first language, you have a very valuable asset. That teacher hasn't the same "language authenticity", but has "pedagogical authenticity". He or she knows what it's like for, say, a Thai student to learn English.

Unfortunately, there aren't many of these people around. There probably aren't all that many other NNS (outside some near balanced-bilingual Europeans - Dutch, Finns, etc.) from other nations either that fit that profile, but there are quite a few that are quite competent both as speakers and teachers.

A good teacher who is also a native speaker (and whose language ability is suited to teaching) clearly has an advantage over a good teacher who is not native and whose English ability is less than fully "authentic". However, the latter can do a very good job teaching the content areas (e.g. Maths) in English.

I agree, in a perfect world an English teacher would be able to speak their student's first language proficiently as well as being a fluent English speaker but, like you said yourself, these types of people are few and far between, especially in Thailand. And as this website is predominantly used by people living/working in Thailand I think we should concentrate on Thailand and the truth is that the average Thai students English is usually quite poor. A native English speaker who is also a qualified teacher in their home country is more than likely going to seek employment at one of the international schools paying a significantly higher wage than the 25-30,000 Baht that most government or bilingual schools currently pay or even go elsewhere in Asia like many are doing so. So that leaves us with the other type of people, like myself, who I believe are the majority of people currently teaching in Thailand, who are not qualified Teachers in their own country but, as a native English speaker, have one distinct advantage over a NNS whether you agree or not. So when schools ask for a native English speaker it is because that persons English is more than likely going to be of a higher standard than a NNS, we all know that isn't always true but surely you can understand that the odds are that a native English speaker will probably have a better command of the English language, grammar and pronunciation than a NNS.

I beg to differ. Most of native speakers just DO NOT have a better command of English syntax than non-natives.

From my perspective, I dare say, my lexis is richer and grammar a lot better than an ordinary ESL teacher's. The same applies to Germans, Slovakians and other Europeans who study or study to teach English.

Supposing, you, for some reason, start to learn my mother tongue (Czech) and gradually measure up to a certain level. After that your grammar will be far more developed than mine, in spite of being a native speaker. It is pure and simple: I learnt my language's morphology, sentence structure, etymology and so forth last time 23 years ago. Nativer speakers use their language automaticaly without thinking and analysing syntax, terminology etc.

Other parts of systems of liguistics such as phonology and phonetics as well as the English language skills (productive ans receptive) are already a different subject, in which native speakers obviously dominate.

[Ijustwannateach]

Sorry, this isn't a pissing contest. You asked us what we thought you should do and what we thought of your chances, and I have told you so very directly. If you are one of those non-native speakers who is deluded about your abilities, it is your own problem (and a very sad one). I'm sure there are mistakes in what I write on here (which, as with you, is not representative of my best efforts); I am equally sure that my writing clearly indicates a high level of native proficiency. Yours doesn't; and when I correct grammar and usage I get paid. Happy to discuss my rates by PM if you'd like. As a starter, try copying and pasting your material into Microsoft Word first and let it show you some of your basic spelling mistakes and other basic errors.

[PeaceBlondie]

hi, jirikoo,

Since you asked us to help point out any errors in your writing style, I will try to do so less directly than IJWT has, without mentioning my hourly rate.

I beg to differ. Most of native speakers just DO NOT have a better command of English syntax than non-natives.

Here, you overstate your position. You would make a better argument by using qualifying statements, such as "In my experience as an EFL teacher, I have noticed that many native speakers who are not teachers, and some native speaking EFL teachers, do not have a better command..." Also, we never say "most of native speakers." We either say, 'most native speakers' or 'most of the native speakers.'

From my perspective, I dare say, my lexis is richer and grammar a lot better than an ordinary ESL teacher's. The same applies to Germans, Slovakians and other Europeans who study or study to teach English.

You dare to say you have a larger vocabulary of English than an ordinary ESL teacher? I seriously doubt that. I suspect that your experience may be limited to your TEFL class fellow students, and a limited number of lower-level native teachers of EFL you have met in the bars or at lower level schools. Now, even some better-educated natives with huge working vocabularies may not be able to clearly explain, on the sperm of the moment, the differences between while and during, or conversant and conversational. But usually, overall, the non-native often has a working vocab that is far less than a well educated native.

Supposing, you, for some reason, start to learn my mother tongue (Czech) and gradually measure up to a certain level. After that your grammar will be far more developed than mine, in spite of being a native speaker. It is pure and simple: I learnt my language's morphology, sentence structure, etymology and so forth last time 23 years ago. Nativer speakers use their language automaticaly without thinking and analysing ...

Natives - Czech, Thais, Americans, Brits, Welsh - are taught grammar as infants, children, and teenagers. However, English grammar teaching has been largely neglected for at least sixty years. Therefore, most native speakers cannot distinguish details, such as the perfect tense and a participle. But when we start earning salaries to teach EFL, we surely should sharpen our grammar well enough to explain the tenses, prepositional phrases, punctuation, etc.

Again, if you think most native-speaking EFL teachers in Thailand speak, write and teach poorly, you might find a pub where the international school teachers hang out. Or at least, EFL teachers who earn over 35K per month at EP and bilingual schools. Thanks for listening. Good luck. Please feel free to respond online or by PM. You make some good points.

[jirikoo]

hi, jirikoo,

Since you asked us to help point out any errors in your writing style, I will try to do so less directly than IJWT has, without mentioning my hourly rate.

I beg to differ. Most of native speakers just DO NOT have a better command of English syntax than non-natives.

Here, you overstate your position. You would make a better argument by using qualifying statements, such as "In my experience as an EFL teacher, I have noticed that many native speakers who are not teachers, and some native speaking EFL teachers, do not have a better command..." Also, we never say "most of native speakers." We either say, 'most native speakers' or 'most of the native speakers.'

From my perspective, I dare say, my lexis is richer and grammar a lot better than an ordinary ESL teacher's. The same applies to Germans, Slovakians and other Europeans who study or study to teach English.

You dare to say you have a larger vocabulary of English than an ordinary ESL teacher? I seriously doubt that. I suspect that your experience may be limited to your TEFL class fellow students, and a limited number of lower-level native teachers of EFL you have met in the bars or at lower level schools. Now, even some better-educated natives with huge working vocabularies may not be able to clearly explain, on the sperm of the moment, the differences between while and during, or conversant and conversational. But usually, overall, the non-native often has a working vocab that is far less than a well educated native.

Supposing, you, for some reason, start to learn my mother tongue (Czech) and gradually measure up to a certain level. After that your grammar will be far more developed than mine, in spite of being a native speaker. It is pure and simple: I learnt my language's morphology, sentence structure, etymology and so forth last time 23 years ago. Nativer speakers use their language automaticaly without thinking and analysing ...

Natives - Czech, Thais, Americans, Brits, Welsh - are taught grammar as infants, children, and teenagers. However, English grammar teaching has been largely neglected for at least sixty years. Therefore, most native speakers cannot distinguish details, such as the perfect tense and a participle. But when we start earning salaries to teach EFL, we surely should sharpen our grammar well enough to explain the tenses, prepositional phrases, punctuation, etc.

Again, if you think most native-speaking EFL teachers in Thailand speak, write and teach poorly, you might find a pub where the international school teachers hang out. Or at least, EFL teachers who earn over 35K per month at EP and bilingual schools. Thanks for listening. Good luck. Please feel free to respond online or by PM. You make some good points.

...are you off to a hair-splitting convention? I didn't mean to attack/offend anyone and never ever did, so please let's all loosen up.

Incidentally, after skimming your post, I may say that the word vocabulary is a mass noun so we cannot say a large vocabulary or vocabularies. Moreover, the verb dare is commonly used in either lexical or modal (auxiliary) form, therefore you can easily create a question by inversion if you want...;-)

Most of native speakers, see: http://books.google.com.au/books?hl=en&amp...sa=N&tab=wp

What do you know about me? How long do you think I have studied the language? Anyway, I've never said that non-native ESL teachers have a better command of English. What I said was, that the level of grammar (definition, terminology, etc.) of the ordinary native speakers - teachers does not measure up to the level of those who are proficient non-native speakers.

Nobody is infallible, though.

[jirikoo]

Sorry, this isn't a pissing contest. You asked us what we thought you should do and what we thought of your chances, and I have told you so very directly. If you are one of those non-native speakers who is deluded about your abilities, it is your own problem (and a very sad one). I'm sure there are mistakes in what I write on here (which, as with you, is not representative of my best efforts); I am equally sure that my writing clearly indicates a high level of native proficiency. Yours doesn't; and when I correct grammar and usage I get paid. Happy to discuss my rates by PM if you'd like. As a starter, try copying and pasting your material into Microsoft Word first and let it show you some of your basic spelling mistakes and other basic errors.

Let me ask you. Was I the one who started to piss all around? I just simply asked a question towards non-native speakers. You should have more respect, mister. I do not really have time to react to your resentful posts.

P.S: I start questioning your English proficiency (see bellow)

You quoted: Happy to discuss my rates by PM if you'd like.

The correct form: Happy to discuss my rates by PM if you like.

Isn't it paradoxical?

Edited January 28, 2009 by jirikoo

[adjan jb]

You quoted: Happy to discuss my rates by PM if you'd like.

The correct form: Happy to discuss my rates by PM if you like.

I believe that the correct form is: I would be very happy to....

JB (Non-native bullshiter)

1. bullshiter

someone who constantly spews bullshit out of their mouths without first thinking if it makes any sense

(Urban Dictionary)

[mrtoad]

]

Let me ask you. Was I the one who started to piss all around? I just simply asked a question towards non-native speakers. You should have more respect, mister. I do not really have time to react to your resentful posts.

P.S: I start questioning your English proficiency (see bellow)

You quoted: Happy to discuss my rates by PM if you'd like.

The correct form: Happy to discuss my rates by PM if you like.

Isn't it paradoxical?

Shoulders and chips springs to mind.

[PeaceBlondie]

Topic closed for level of insults being hurled and number of hairs being unnecessarily split.

[Ijustwannateach]

Sorry, this isn't a pissing contest. You asked us what we thought you should do and what we thought of your chances, and I have told you so very directly. If you are one of those non-native speakers who is deluded about your abilities, it is your own problem (and a very sad one). I'm sure there are mistakes in what I write on here (which, as with you, is not representative of my best efforts); I am equally sure that my writing clearly indicates a high level of native proficiency. Yours doesn't; and when I correct grammar and usage I get paid. Happy to discuss my rates by PM if you'd like. As a starter, try copying and pasting your material into Microsoft Word first and let it show you some of your basic spelling mistakes and other basic errors.

Let me ask you. Was I the one who started to piss all around? I just simply asked a question towards non-native speakers. You should have more respect, mister. I do not really have time to react to your resentful posts.

P.S: I start questioning your English proficiency (see bellow)

You quoted: Happy to discuss my rates by PM if you'd like.

The correct form: Happy to discuss my rates by PM if you like.

Isn't it paradoxical?