Ais 3g Network

[palander]

When am I, technically spoken, exposed to the radiation of AIS 3G network ? Is this mainly when I use this network myself, of are non users, for instance in rooms next to mine, also exposed to this radiation, but in a lesser degree ?

I am asking this because I do experience some physical complaints, like headache and dizziness, since I did start to use the AIS 3G network. But imagination could play it's part, although I did not think of any "side effects" until I did start to experience these physical complaints.

Can someone clear this up, a bit ?

[MJo]

Sure.

Nothing to do with AIS 3G, maybe you should consult a doctor or shrink.

As far as i know they have few trial base stations in Chiang Mai and were planning to built few in Bangkok which they are operating 3G in same 900MHz frequency as they do for 2G. So there is no difference between 2G and 3G signals presently in AIS network.

Technically when ever you are in the coverage area where you can make a call with your phone you are "exposed" to the signal. Which are basicly normal RF signals not "radiation" as such. So if you have been ok so far, there is no way suddenly "3G" signals would get you sick.

You are exposed to various signals all the time. Radio, mobile phone, wifi etc etc... and none of these will do you any harm. At least there has not been any reports so far after all these years i.e. radio was invented.

Google more information and try to take it easy.

[DaveBKK]

You get exposed to far more radiation from walking outside in the sun than from AIS 3g network.

Well, unless you walk around 24/7 with a phone strapped to your head and always on....but if that's the case I think there are other problems to worry about before radiation

[palander]

Technically when ever you are in the coverage area where you can make a call with your phone you are "exposed" to the signal. Which are basicly normal RF signals not "radiation" as such. So if you have been ok so far, there is no way suddenly "3G" signals would get you sick.

I use the AIS 3G network for internet. Does that mean that I am exposed to the signal whenever I make a connection, which in my case can be 10 hours at a time, which is a little bit more than making a phone call occasionally.

Maybe this could be an explanation for the physical complaints ?

Edited January 26, 2009 by palander

[palander]

Well, unless you walk around 24/7 with a phone strapped to your head and always on....

I use the AIS 3G network for internet. Does that mean that I am exposed to the signal whenever I make a connection, which in my case can be 10 hours at a time, which is a little bit more than making a phone call occasionally.

Maybe this could be an explanation for the physical complaints ?

[MJo]

Technically when ever you are in the coverage area where you can make a call with your phone you are "exposed" to the signal. Which are basicly normal RF signals not "radiation" as such. So if you have been ok so far, there is no way suddenly "3G" signals would get you sick.

I use the AIS 3G network for internet. Does that mean that I am exposed to the signal whenever I make a connection, which in my case can be 10 hours at a time, which is a little bit more than making a phone call occasionally.

Maybe this could be an explanation for the physical complaints ?

Err no, like i said the network is there all the time regardless if you are connected or not. Just like wifi coverage in starbucks, it's there even if no one is using it. Think of it like your car radio, the signal is always there and you can listen to it anytime you want.

And again, it is impossible that you get headaches from RF signals like 3G. Possible to get them just looking your monitor 10 hours in one go though...

[palander]

Technically when ever you are in the coverage area where you can make a call with your phone you are "exposed" to the signal. Which are basicly normal RF signals not "radiation" as such. So if you have been ok so far, there is no way suddenly "3G" signals would get you sick.

I use the AIS 3G network for internet. Does that mean that I am exposed to the signal whenever I make a connection, which in my case can be 10 hours at a time, which is a little bit more than making a phone call occasionally.

Maybe this could be an explanation for the physical complaints ?

Err no, like i said the network is there all the time regardless if you are connected or not. Just like wifi coverage in starbucks, it's there even if no one is using it. Think of it like your car radio, the signal is always there and you can listen to it anytime you want.

And again, it is impossible that you get headaches from RF signals like 3G. Possible to get them just looking your monitor 10 hours in one go though...

Thanks for clearing things up.

I also did do a Google search and found the following, but maybe not related to my situation ?

A new study by the Dutch government shows that 3G radiowaves can cause more health problems than current 2G networks. The study shows that radiation from third generation base stations causes headaches and nausea while current mobile signals have little affect.

"If the test group was exposed to third generation base station signals there was a significant impact ... They felt tingling sensations, got headaches and felt nauseous," a spokeswoman for the Dutch Economics Ministry said.

The study also concluded both 3G signals and current mobile signals boosted cognitive functions such as memory and response.

The government will carry further test to see the long term health effects and biological issues and will also discuss the study with the European Commission.

Mobile handsets emit stronger radiation when they are in use but base stations can affect anyone within its transmission range.

The tests involved exposing unexpected test subjects to anticipated dose of radiation for 3G base stations when they are rollout.

http://www.3gnewsroom.com/3g_news/sep_03/news_3795.shtml

[MJo]

I also did do a Google search and found the following, but maybe not related to my situation ?

A new study by the Dutch government shows that 3G radiowaves can cause more health problems than current 2G networks. The study shows that radiation from third generation base stations causes headaches and nausea while current mobile signals have little affect.

"If the test group was exposed to third generation base station signals there was a significant impact ... They felt tingling sensations, got headaches and felt nauseous," a spokeswoman for the Dutch Economics Ministry said.

The study also concluded both 3G signals and current mobile signals boosted cognitive functions such as memory and response.

The government will carry further test to see the long term health effects and biological issues and will also discuss the study with the European Commission.

Mobile handsets emit stronger radiation when they are in use but base stations can affect anyone within its transmission range.

The tests involved exposing unexpected test subjects to anticipated dose of radiation for 3G base stations when they are rollout.

http://www.3gnewsroom.com/3g_news/sep_03/news_3795.shtml

Elsewhere they use 2100MHz frequency for 3G, Thailand so far the few trial sites are in 900MHz and 2100MHz will follow once they get licences out. Will take at least one to two years as minimum before they have "proper" 2100MHz 3G in Thailand.

Interesting study but not so sure if it's correct... It's done in 2003 (when 3G was not widely used) with "anticipated dose" radiation levels for 3G. Nowdays 3G networks have been operational for years in most countries and there has been no problems for people who have been using them for years. I myself regularly use 3G for data connection or voice calls hours at the time and no probs, so does few million other people and nothing.

Also i know number of engineers who built these base stations and they daily work right next to the equipment (getting as high dose as possible) and no probs reported that anyone in the industry knows about. There is some standards how long you should work in directly under the antennaes but if i remember correctly those only apply if you are within 3 to 5 meters from the antenna so anything more than that you are ok and allowed to stay and work 24 hrs a day if you so wish.

Reports like these pop up regularly in the media, one day it's harmless and other day it causes what ever...

The fact is that you are using AIS 3G at 900MHZ, which is the same as existing 900 MHz 2G network in Thailand so in case you were ok when using 2G you are ok with using 3G as well. Same frequency so same "dose".

[dotcom]

A.I.S. don't have a 3G network so you don't have anything to worry about.

[dekka007]

The Sky Is Falling.................

[billd766]

I have been working on cellular phone systems in many parts of the world since 1987.

I have worked on analogue systems long ago and on GSM since 1993 and as far as I know I have had no ill effects.

Mjo

Elsewhere they use 2100MHz frequency for 3G, Thailand so far the few trial sites are in 900MHz and 2100MHz will follow once they get licences out. Will take at least one to two years as minimum before they have "proper" 2100MHz 3G in Thailand.

I am now working in New Zealand on the Vodafone 3G rollout and we use both 900 and 2100 as well as 900 and 1800 on both 2 and 2.5G.

As far as I know there has been no proof that ANY RF radiation from a mobile phone system causes any permanent damage but there is no proof that it doesn't either.

My ex wife used to suffer from migraines but I never did and as far as I know she still suffers from them. I have never suffered from them but I now get headaches from watching the monitor as I use the computer about 10 hours a day and I have to get new glasses every year.

[nikster]

My 2ct....

It does make a difference whether you are online for 10 hours at a time or not online. As long as you are online, your radio (3G modem) is sending. If it's offline, it's probably off and not sending at all, or if it were a phone it would just occasionally ping the network.

Second, it's possible you get a headache from it. Do you get sick very easily? If yes maybe you are just a hypochondriac. If no, maybe there's something to it. If you are concerned I'd recommend to get a router with USB connector, connect your 3G to that, move it far away from where you are sitting, e.g. the roof, or a different room with a concrete wall between, and connect to the router via ethernet cable (turn off WiFi). And see if it makes any difference.

Time and again studies have shown that there are no ill side effects from mobile use. But we are all different. Some people can feel the weather, I am sure there are some that can feel mobile signals. Also none of these studies have users that actively use mobile phones 10 hours a day.

[dotcom]

My Nokia E51 runs 3G in the 850 mHz spectrum as well as the 2100 spectrum.

So I don't know what phone would run in the 900 mHz even if such a service exists in Thailand which it doesn't.

This is why DTAC will be the first & only till the Thai gov't get off their @$$ & allocate spectrum.

[palander]

My 2ct....

It does make a difference whether you are online for 10 hours at a time or not online. As long as you are online, your radio (3G modem) is sending. If it's offline, it's probably off and not sending at all, or if it were a phone it would just occasionally ping the network.

Second, it's possible you get a headache from it. Do you get sick very easily? If yes maybe you are just a hypochondriac. If no, maybe there's something to it. If you are concerned I'd recommend to get a router with USB connector, connect your 3G to that, move it far away from where you are sitting, e.g. the roof, or a different room with a concrete wall between, and connect to the router via ethernet cable (turn off WiFi). And see if it makes any difference.

Also worthwhile information, though conflicting with the information I got from MJo in the way that it seems to matter if my 3G modem is connected or not.

[dotcom]

But there is no 3G network so what's the problem?

[palander]

But there is no 3G network so what's the problem?

Maybe only in my imagination ?

[Tywais]

But there is no 3G network so what's the problem?

Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It is not a large distribution at the moment but it does exist at 900MHz.

"AIS is the only cellular operator that has launched a post-paid 3G mobile broadband service in Chiang Mai, where it has some 30 base stations, using its constrained 900MHz spectrum."

Source: Thainewsland quoting The Nation

At least one of our members in Chiangmai is subscribed to it. Though some may argue as to whether it is true 3G or 3.5G

[nikster]

Also worthwhile information, though conflicting with the information I got from MJo in the way that it seems to matter if my 3G modem is connected or not.

Yes it matters. And you didn't tell us if you feel sick quite often. Until then, good luck.

[MJo]

As said you are exposed to the signals always when you are in the coverage area of any network. i.e. when walking around in Bangkok you are in the coverage area of several networks. Each operator has their base stations (BTS) located all around thailand, i would guess few thousand per operator nowdays (telecom towers in road side and rooftop sites in towns, also indoor coverage inside buildings like shopping malls, hotels etc) to provide coverage for your mobile. So based on this you should have constant headache and reactions all the time, regardless where you are, in case you are reacting to mobile signals !

Below shows the basic layout of the network, from mobile to BTS over air (RF signals) and from BTS onwards it done in fiber optic cable, also some thru point to point microwave transmission links.

More info how it works: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSM_network#Network_structure

Info regarding wireless devices and health: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_elec...ices_and_health

[Thanh-BKK]

Hi

Topics like this always remind me of that small town in my home country. One day the population found out that a mobile phone BTS had been installed inside the church tower. And suddenly it was all-so-clear how everyone around that church had these strange headaches since weeks and weeks.......

An "expert" was called in and, without access to the actual property, measurements were taken showing clearly the "harmful radiation" exceeded any allowable limits and then an official, lawyer-drafted complaint was sent to T-Mobile, the operator of that base station.

Which then, in front of running TV cameras, demonstrated that the base station had indeed been built - but had never been even connected to electricity, hence was never operated

Or my neighbour once..... the day i moved into that flat in Wiesbaden one of the first things i did was to erect my CB antenna. Next morning there's a knock on the door - the neighbour. I should please immediately remove my antenna because my CB caused too much distortion on his TV. I asked him inside and showed him my station - still nicely packed in various boxes inside a large box for moving. I even showed him the antenna itself on the balcony which didn't have any cable running to it. From that day onward i used the highly illegal power of 250 watts on the (then) highly illegal SSB mode (prone to cause TV distortion!) without any issues

And there's my very own grandfather, who died a happy man, aged 84, healthy as a newborn. He was working as a telecommunications engineer, which at the time (for well over 30 years!) included repairing broadcasting antennas for Germany's larger radio stations. The station of course won't go off the air to have it's antenna painted or a few bolts replaced, so my grandfather rather regularly had KILOwatts of RF going right through him, as by working on the actual antenna he became a part of the radiating element. Didn't do him any harm.

I guess people ALWAYS will be scared of new technologies, complain against them, and find obscure (usually health related) reasons against them. It was like that with mobile phones in general, the microwave, the television, the airplane, the automobile and the steam train.

So pop a Paracetamol and just stop imagining the "radiation" that comes from the 3G device, you'll see the headache will go away.

Best regards.....

Thanh (who has a mobile phone BTS "blasting" right into his room since years and no headaches)

[palander]

Hi

And there's my very own grandfather, who died a happy man, aged 84, healthy as a newborn. He was working as a telecommunications engineer, which at the time (for well over 30 years!) included repairing broadcasting antennas for Germany's larger radio stations. The station of course won't go off the air to have it's antenna painted or a few bolts replaced, so my grandfather rather regularly had KILOwatts of RF going right through him, as by working on the actual antenna he became a part of the radiating element. Didn't do him any harm.

My grandfather is 96 years old, smokes 50 cigarettes a day and is still going very very strong !

[palander]

As said you are exposed to the signals always when you are in the coverage area of any network. i.e. when walking around in Bangkok you are in the coverage area of several networks. Each operator has their base stations (BTS) located all around thailand, i would guess few thousand per operator nowdays (telecom towers in road side and rooftop sites in towns, also indoor coverage inside buildings like shopping malls, hotels etc) to provide coverage for your mobile. So based on this you should have constant headache and reactions all the time, regardless where you are, in case you are reacting to mobile signals !

Below shows the basic layout of the network, from mobile to BTS over air (RF signals) and from BTS onwards it done in fiber optic cable, also some thru point to point microwave transmission links.

More info how it works: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSM_network#Network_structure

Info regarding wireless devices and health: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_elec...ices_and_health

Most helpful. In the past when I didn't use the AIS network I didn't have any complaints, and I am not able to judge the strength of the signals when being connected to the AIS network, but I guess you would repeat yourself by saying that also when being connected to the AIS 3G network for 10 hours at time this could not possibly be harmful ?

Edited January 28, 2009 by palander

[MJo]

Most helpful. In the past when I didn't use the AIS network I didn't have any complaints, and I am not able to judge the strength of the signals when being connected to the AIS network, but I guess you would repeat yourself by saying that also when being connected to the AIS 3G network for 10 hours at time this could not possibly be harmful ?

Yes i would, but switch back to something else than AIS if makes the headaches to go away. Simple as that, problem solved.

[Thanh-BKK]

Yes i would, but switch back to something else than AIS if makes the headaches to go away. Simple as that, problem solved.

Hi

If you are over-sensitive, you can chose D-TAC or TRUE or HUTCH/CAT.

AIS uses GSM (pulsed transmission) on 900 MHz, max transmitter (phone!) output = 2 Watts.

D-TAC and TRUE use GSM (pulsed transmission) on 1,800 MHz, max transmitter (phone!) output = 1 Watt.

HUTCH/CAT use CDMA (continuous transmission) on 800 MHz, max transmitter (phone!) output = 0.2 (!!) Watts.

Clearly CDMA is better for hyper-sensitive individuals, for one due to the signal's nature (continuous low-power rather than pulsed high-power) as well as for it's frequency - the lower the better.

Above wattage is under worst-case scenario, by the way - with good network coverage, all mobile phones transmit much lower wattage to save energy.

AIS 3G by the way is also using CDMA (on 900 MHz), but wide-band CDMA (W-CDMA, UMTS) and higher output power than "regular" CDMA, i don't know how high but might be 1 or 2 Watts. That signal is continuous, too, but due to it's higher output wattage actually worse than GSM.

Test it! Put a cell phone near to a radio and turn it on. You will hear the typical "GSM-sound" coming from the radio. You won't hear that coming from a CDMA-phone

Best regards......

Thanh

[cathyy]

When you are connected to the AIS signal, you get a headache, right? I presume this is also the time you are using your computer. You could be getting a headache from eyestrain from a display with a refresh rate of under 85Hz (they say you can't detect it at 75Hz, but I sure could, and got terrible headaches from 75Hz) Or, from fluorescent lighting, flickering visibly at 50Hz here. Or from a display with the contrast set too high, or using a computer in an otherwise dark room. Or just from using the computer too long without a break.

As others have noted, it's not the 3G because there IS no true 3G in Thailand. And it's not the modem, or cellphones would cause the same issue.

[Thanh-BKK]

As others have noted, it's not the 3G because there IS no true 3G in Thailand. And it's not the modem, or cellphones would cause the same issue.

Errm.....

Actually, there IS. And it's AIS who's running it. Anything "W-CDMA" is "3G" regardless if it employs HSDPA or not. And W-CDMA (otherwise known as UMTS) is exactly what AIS runs in Chiang Mai and in certain areas in Bangkok. They do run it on their 900 MHz frequency while most of the world uses 2,100 MHz, yet the standard is the same, hence - "true" 3G.

Apart from that, CAT is also running 3G! Although a whole different type of 3G, namely CDMA 2000-EV-DO (EVolution Data Optimized). This is also a "third generation" (3G) standard which competes with the UMTS.

The respective 2.5G systems are EDGE (GSM) and CDMA-2000-1x (Hutch, CAT).

Best regards.....

Thanh

[Khun Jack]

Quote: A new study by the Dutch government shows that 3G radiowaves can cause more health problems than current 2G networks. The study shows that radiation from third generation base stations causes headaches and nausea while current mobile signals have little affect.

I worked for the Dutch government, did official field strength measurements after complaints from citizens living near transmitters.

From shortwave to super high frequencies and was exposed to near field radio wave radiation my life long from my navy time till now with my GSM telephone.

But never felt something, only the Navy radar was dangerous (that they found out in the 50's after accidentally sterilizing navy crew).

Visited one time a house where the owner covered all his walls with aluminum foil, was a good job but he forgot the windows.

[Isee]

A.I.S. don't have a 3G network so you don't have anything to worry about.

Maybe you should ring up AIS and confirm that. To save you the trouble, I was speaking to them 2 weeks ago and they were offering 3G - the problem is that in BKK its coverage was only in the Siam (BTS) area - so no use to me.

[MJo]

As others have noted, it's not the 3G because there IS no true 3G in Thailand. And it's not the modem, or cellphones would cause the same issue.

Errm.....

Actually, there IS. And it's AIS who's running it. Anything "W-CDMA" is "3G" regardless if it employs HSDPA or not. And W-CDMA (otherwise known as UMTS) is exactly what AIS runs in Chiang Mai and in certain areas in Bangkok. They do run it on their 900 MHz frequency while most of the world uses 2,100 MHz, yet the standard is the same, hence - "true" 3G.

Apart from that, CAT is also running 3G! Although a whole different type of 3G, namely CDMA 2000-EV-DO (EVolution Data Optimized). This is also a "third generation" (3G) standard which competes with the UMTS.

The respective 2.5G systems are EDGE (GSM) and CDMA-2000-1x (Hutch, CAT).

Best regards.....

Thanh

Ok, lets start splitting more hairs...

HSDPA is only part of the technology that is nowdays called 3.5G by many operators. The technology, called HSPA (High-Speed Packet Access) employs both HSDPA (High-Speed Downlink Packet Access) and HSUPA (High-Speed Uplink Packet Access). Operators usually advertise only their download speeds with "3.5G" but rarely show in generic ad materials their uplink speeds. Some might still run only HSDPA meaning uplink is still normal WCDMA and some have "full system" with HSUPA.

CDMA 1xEV-DO rev 0 is 4.2 mbps in theory but in practise usually only 300-600 kbps (same as 1xEV-DV Revision C). 1xEV-DO rev A then again is pretty much the same as HSDPA (theoretical 7.2 mbps)

Now OP's issues coming from 900MHz AIS trial WCDMA should also come from AIS 900MHz GSM right? It really does not matter if the transmitting power differs between WCDMA modem or GSM phone. Actually you keep the GSM phone glued to your head when using and WCDMA modem usually is next or "inside" your computer and not in direct contact with your brains.

Better to start hoarding tin foil. First next generation LTE networks are under construction as we speak

[MJo]

A.I.S. don't have a 3G network so you don't have anything to worry about.

Maybe you should ring up AIS and confirm that. To save you the trouble, I was speaking to them 2 weeks ago and they were offering 3G - the problem is that in BKK its coverage was only in the Siam (BTS) area - so no use to me.

Are they selling sim cards or for data only ?

Just curious...