Sleepless Nights Ahead For Bohpud & Gecko Fire & Threads

[ibngazelle]

Think I might make a film based on this thread as I think it has real potential. Won't even have to change names as the evil Gary Gekko's business goes up in smoke and the credits begin to roll (to the Stones 'you can't always get what you want). Might have to exagerate some aspects though and have a scene of local residents descending on his bar with pitchforks while he holes himself up Scarface style with his 'little friend', lieing in wait. Ray Liotta plays Gekko, with Ray Winston leading the island mob with that mad scouser from This is England.

[Stussy55]

Think I might make a film based on this thread as I think it has real potential. Won't even have to change names as the evil Gary Gekko's business goes up in smoke and the credits begin to roll (to the Stones 'you can't always get what you want). Might have to exagerate some aspects though and have a scene of local residents descending on his bar with pitchforks while he holes himself up Scarface style with his 'little friend', lieing in wait. Ray Liotta plays Gekko, with Ray Winston leading the island mob with that mad scouser from This is England.

I think you might have a good point there.....would beat the sh*t out of "The Beach".........

[R1CH]

Think I might make a film based on this thread as I think it has real potential. Won't even have to change names as the evil Gary Gekko's business goes up in smoke and the credits begin to roll (to the Stones 'you can't always get what you want). Might have to exagerate some aspects though and have a scene of local residents descending on his bar with pitchforks while he holes himself up Scarface style with his 'little friend', lieing in wait. Ray Liotta plays Gekko, with Ray Winston leading the island mob with that mad scouser from This is England.

Personally I'd go with Jonny Vegas as the Geko & Burn Baby Burn by Ash for the end credits. Nice call on Scarface tho

[LaoPo]

I hesitated a long time if I would write a comment or not but decided to do so.

AFAIK Mr. Gary Gecko is not an unknown DJ in the world of clubs and discotheques including the most famous clubs on Ibiza, and elsewhere in the world, where he worked also, as I understood from some search on Google.

Not that I ever encountered his style of DJ'ing music because the clubbing period lies way back for me although I have friends who still go to clubs where world famous DJ's are booked, like the #'s 1 and 2 DJ's, Tiesto and Armin van Buuren, the best paid DJ's in the world flying around in their own private jets.

However, I fear that Mr. Gary 'asked' for trouble himself and created his own bad karma when he decided to relocate/re-open his OPEN-AIR Gecko club/bar/restaurant/discotheque (whatever he wants to call it) from the beach-side to a rural hillside green area of Bophut - Koh Samui.

Mr. Gary Gecko, surely, should and must know that the (relatively young) clubbing scene who enjoy the kind of DJ music Mr. Gary Gecko produces will go anywhere to enjoy themselves, including Mr. Gary's new outlet, now sadly burned down.

But...Mr. Gecko should also have been aware that clubs like his, all around the world, are built in such a way that they do not disturb the people living around such a club and that those clubs are for 99% built in an insulated way with thick walls and roofs (not with reed like Gecko's) in order to prevent the produced loud noise to reach neighbours who live around these ventures.

A good example is the world famous PACHA club on Ibiza but includes also other clubs like Amnesia, Privilege, Space, El Divino, Es Paradis etc.; ALL of those clubs are INDOOR clubs with air conditioning and heavy insulation, preventing noise to 'escape' outdoors which, otherwise would cause horrible noise for people living in the area.

Pacha lies in the middle of many apartment buildings on Ibiza but doesn't produce heavy loud music sound because of the (demanded by the local authorities!) heavy insulation; Still they have a very nice outdoor terrace (with double doors to prevent the noise to escape).

That's exactly where Mr. Gecko went wrong: he built his OUTDOOR OPEN-AIR club-venture in a rural non-touristic hillside area where people built/bought their houses to enjoy peace and tranquility and would NEVER have bought/built their houses there with the knowledge of an open-air club producing lots of noise..

I admire Mr. Gecko's spirit to build a business in Thailand/Samui but he should have realized that creating his club in the hills would cause lots of disturbing NOISE-problems and it's not like some of the previous posters mentioned that those people who lived around this club should have talked to Mr. Gecko....

Au contraire:

Mr Gary Gecko should have gone around and talk to those who live around that area and ask HOW he could prevent the noise he would create BEFORE he started his club and not suggesting now that the people who are disturbed to talk to HIM. That's putting the world upside down.

Or is Mr. Gecko telling us that he would have had no problems if he would have created his club in an exclusive rural villa area in the UK, where he's from ? Don't think so Mr. Gecko!

IF Mr. Gecko manages to rebuild his club (assuming he has the proper permits....? ) I strongly suggest he does so in a way (INDOORS!) that he doesn't produce heavy & loud music sound until 07.30AM early morning like he planned for his (invitation only for 200 people) 40th birthday party on September 29th.

A lot of young people enjoy DJ-produced club-music but another great part of the local and farang people do NOT....especially if they didn't ask for it.

BUT: if it's true Mr. Gary Gecko wrote the text below...he's asking for more bad karma!

"Gary G Ecko - HAPPY TO BE ALIVE!!!! WE'LL BE BACK, WE PROMISE YOU.. BIGGER, BETTER AND 10 TIMES fuc_kING LOUDER!!!!!!!!"

Writing such things is blaming other people for the problems he caused...

LaoPo

[koheesti]

I still can't help but wonder whether perhaps this whole argument between members of Thai Visa and the Gecko management which (and correct me if I'm wrong) started after postings on this forum, can in part be attributed to the faceless nature of the internet?

Could it have been avoided by face to face conversation as soon as a problem raised it's head?

I keep reading about written threats and have read the whole thread (minus, of course, the deleted portions) several times, and to me, it begs the question: without a perceived (and faceless) cyber confrontation being levelled, would retaliatory cyber threats have been made in return?

As I said in one of my previous postings, (and this is based on 40 years of life experience), it is very easy to write things down, much easier in fact than saying them to someones face, and also easy to maybe go too far with what you are trying to say, especially when others of the same opinion are having their say so; very quickly a situation can snowball as everyone gets egged on by the others and you end up with a virtual lynch mob.

...

1) Someone did go up to talk to them and hasn't been heard from on this thread again (one of the first 5 pages I think).

2) Confronting someone face-to-face in Thailand about stopping their livilihood is a good way to end up a statistic.

[yantzen]

I hesitated a long time if I would write a comment or not but decided to do so.

AFAIK Mr. Gary Gecko is not an unknown DJ in the world of clubs and discotheques including the most famous clubs on Ibiza, and elsewhere in the world, where he worked also, as I understood from some search on Google.

Not that I ever encountered his style of DJ'ing music because the clubbing period lies way back for me although I have friends who still go to clubs where world famous DJ's are booked, like the #'s 1 and 2 DJ's, Tiesto and Armin van Buuren, the best paid DJ's in the world flying around in their own private jets.

However, I fear that Mr. Gary 'asked' for trouble himself and created his own bad karma when he decided to relocate/re-open his OPEN-AIR Gecko club/bar/restaurant/discotheque (whatever he wants to call it) from the beach-side to a rural hillside green area of Bophut - Koh Samui.

Mr. Gary Gecko, surely, should and must know that the (relatively young) clubbing scene who enjoy the kind of DJ music Mr. Gary Gecko produces will go anywhere to enjoy themselves, including Mr. Gary's new outlet, now sadly burned down.

But...Mr. Gecko should also have been aware that clubs like his, all around the world, are built in such a way that they do not disturb the people living around such a club and that those clubs are for 99% built in an insulated way with thick walls and roofs (not with reed like Gecko's) in order to prevent the produced loud noise to reach neighbours who live around these ventures.

A good example is the world famous PACHA club on Ibiza but includes also other clubs like Amnesia, Privilege, Space, El Divino, Es Paradis etc.; ALL of those clubs are INDOOR clubs with air conditioning and heavy insulation, preventing noise to 'escape' outdoors which, otherwise would cause horrible noise for people living in the area.

Pacha lies in the middle of many apartment buildings on Ibiza but doesn't produce heavy loud music sound because of the (demanded by the local authorities!) heavy insulation; Still they have a very nice outdoor terrace (with double doors to prevent the noise to escape).

That's exactly where Mr. Gecko went wrong: he built his OUTDOOR OPEN-AIR club-venture in a rural non-touristic hillside area where people built/bought their houses to enjoy peace and tranquility and would NEVER have bought/built their houses there with the knowledge of an open-air club producing lots of noise..

I admire Mr. Gecko's spirit to build a business in Thailand/Samui but he should have realized that creating his club in the hills would cause lots of disturbing NOISE-problems and it's not like some of the previous posters mentioned that those people who lived around this club should have talked to Mr. Gecko....

Au contraire:

Mr Gary Gecko should have gone around and talk to those who live around that area and ask HOW he could prevent the noise he would create BEFORE he started his club and not suggesting now that the people who are disturbed to talk to HIM. That's putting the world upside down.

Or is Mr. Gecko telling us that he would have had no problems if he would have created his club in an exclusive rural villa area in the UK, where he's from ? Don't think so Mr. Gecko!

IF Mr. Gecko manages to rebuild his club (assuming he has the proper permits....? ) I strongly suggest he does so in a way (INDOORS!) that he doesn't produce heavy & loud music sound until 07.30AM early morning like he planned for his (invitation only for 200 people) 40th birthday party on September 29th.

A lot of young people enjoy DJ-produced club-music but another great part of the local and farang people do NOT....especially if they didn't ask for it.

BUT: if it's true Mr. Gary Gecko wrote the text below...he's asking for more bad karma!

"Gary G Ecko - HAPPY TO BE ALIVE!!!! WE'LL BE BACK, WE PROMISE YOU.. BIGGER, BETTER AND 10 TIMES fuc_kING LOUDER!!!!!!!!"

Writing such things is blaming other people for the problems he caused...

LaoPo

Thanks LaoPo. In Dutch: Je hebt de vinger precies op de zere plek gelegd! Don't know how to translate in English

[Lite Beer]

Thanks LaoPo. In Dutch: Je hebt de vinger precies op de zere plek gelegd! Don't know how to translate in English

Google Translate says. You have the right finger on the sore spot out!

[keepsamuiclean]

Long thread..., going to the first page "Villa Samui" is stating in his (I guess not her) post on 2.2.2009:

"Why don't you all go up there and have a drink... Nobody's stupid enough to make a nightclub there!

(though if you keep promoting it like one on here you may actually be attracting the wrong crowd!)

This is one of the most beautiful bar/restaurants on the island and will be surrounded by million dollar + villas (already sold)

Who would build a villa next to a nightclub..?????.

And this is to the poster that's got nothing better to do with his life than bore the pants off people with

this complete cock and bull story..

"Why don't you chill out dude.. because nobody has had or will have sleepless nights!!!" "

Where is Samui Villa NOW ??

[JUDAS]

Thanks LaoPo. In Dutch: Je hebt de vinger precies op de zere plek gelegd! Don't know how to translate in English

Google Translate says. You have the right finger on the sore spot out!

Either it's lost something in translation or it's just painful

[keepsamuiclean]

It's not painful. Everybody should understand: Lao Po described perfectly all details about this venue.

[concerned]

Good post LaoPo.

Eventually this place was always eventually going to HAVE to be a pretty quiet place when all the Villas they mentioned were eventually finished, because no matter how party oriented the buyers were, having a noisy club in their midst would have been the last thing they needed. They even stated that it was going to be this kind of place eventually and even in the meantime ("with no sleepless nights" ) as was pointed out earlier.

Therefore they should have built it up as a quiet quality restaurant (maybe with nightly BBQs) venue from the kick off, with speakers about the size of golf balls. If they had done this they would have had considerable support from their neighbours and their neighbour's rental customers, who would have been happy to have such a place in close proximity without having to necessarily always venture out too far. It could almost have become a bit of a "local"

Instead with their first "all nighter" they managed in one master stroke of blinding stupidity, to alienate all their most likely customers. What business man on this planet would do such a thing?

It was a marketing gaff and classic "shot in the foot" of truly MONUMENTAL proportions the like of which I have never witnessed before in all my time in Samui or anywhere else for that matter. Especially after such a substantial investment.

From the minute they did that, nobody local was going to talk to them or use their services. What a bloody shame and total waste of a potentially good business.

You are right of course LaoPo that they should have visited local villas, but noise should never have been the issue they had to talk about, instead they should have been delivering promotional brochures to a great new and slightly unique chilled out drinks and meal venue. I would even have handed out the classic "Thai VIP cards" for Villa owners and their renters offering 10 or 15% discount at their place to encourage its use, not turning them into enemies overnight!

I would have tried to do a deal for example with the Canopy Adventure guys to make it a drinks/meal panorama stop off en route. Chatted up the local hotel concierge people to suggest it to local hotel residents. Got the " tommorow night, tomorrow night" guys to advertise it. Done a deal with a mini bus company re. transport from Chaweng etc etc. Used the Dining Guides that I am told work quite well with the tourists. They have a huge fan base on Facebook which is a captive audience of friendly people that they could have pointed out to that it was now a cool chilled relaxed atmosphere place now. They all have to eat and they won't all be friends that only like them because they are noisy!

The first time one of their old contacts asked them to host a party for them they could have said something along the lines of " we can't p-ss off our local customers but we can put on a great meal for you then transport you down to Green Mango ( for example ) where we will a special private area and I will do a guest DJ spot specially for you". Green Mango would have done that for them. They might even have paid them for it!

Just ideas, I know, and they might not all have worked in these difficult times.

If it was about making a living to support themselves and their families, this might have been a more successful route, especially as it was going to have to go that way eventually anyway!

However do anything but destroy up your potential customer base!

I'm not sure that Gary was always aware of what was going on at the club because I remember one night when I know for sure, he was doing a gig "off Island" ( Borocai (spelling?) or somewhere ) when the music started off fairly quiet and then by two or three in the morning, it was almost as if the DJ got pissed enough to say " oh <deleted>> it" and it just got louder and louder and louder. Gary was not even on the Island! Allowing the karaoke guy to use the club's sound system to incredibly loud volume was hardly endearing either! Especially as the guy was so clearly in need of singing lessons!

If you were to ask me whether I thought someone capable of such a massive error of judgement was capable doing it again, I would probably have to say yes. But I sincerely hope not.

Edited October 15, 2009 by concerned

[NALAK]

I still can't help but wonder whether perhaps this whole argument between members of Thai Visa and the Gecko management which (and correct me if I'm wrong) started after postings on this forum, can in part be attributed to the faceless nature of the internet?

Could it have been avoided by face to face conversation as soon as a problem raised it's head?

I keep reading about written threats and have read the whole thread (minus, of course, the deleted portions) several times, and to me, it begs the question: without a perceived (and faceless) cyber confrontation being levelled, would retaliatory cyber threats have been made in return?

As I said in one of my previous postings, (and this is based on 40 years of life experience), it is very easy to write things down, much easier in fact than saying them to someones face, and also easy to maybe go too far with what you are trying to say, especially when others of the same opinion are having their say so; very quickly a situation can snowball as everyone gets egged on by the others and you end up with a virtual lynch mob.

Conversely, the other party will most likely end up feeling threatened, backed into a corner by a faceless foe and chooses to retaliate, also in writing, and ends up doing the same thing back.

I fully accept that there is a certain amount of reticence now for anyone to talk face to face, but maybe verbal communication at a much earlier juncture could have avioided this happening. Knowing the Gecko family, I do think this is a distinct possibility. However it would now be a much harder task (or never happen at all, which is a shame) as there is so much resentment built up.

Instead of driving yourselves mad, getting angry and making it worse by only discussing matters with others who feel the same way, get up (and get together- as a matter of interest, how many Samui forum members actually know each other?), confront whatever your problem is, head on and in a reasonable manner as one rational intelligent group to another and see what results you get. Try that next time you feel there is a problem (any problem, not just this specific one) and maybe you might well find you get different results.

Accepted that everyone has different opinions about right and wrong, and what is or isn't acceptable, but is a faceles, anonymous forum the best place to do anything other than launch a debate? Debate is of course the cornerstone of democracy and free speech but is a little futile if not followed up with direct action, which in this case should surely have meant going up the hill and (at least trying) to TALK instead of letting the debate grow stale and take a downwards spiral into: He said/ She said/ My Dad's bigger than your dad/ No he isn't, schoolyard bickering (albeit a more serious, real, adult version of it) in which both sides ultimately end up seeming as bad as each other, and where there can be no winner.

I'm not trying to inflame an already volatile DEBATE,rather just voicing my opinion. No I don't live on the Island, but I think the points I am trying to convey are applicable anywhere, and in any instance where people perceive a problem with their fellow man.

As it happens I am coming to Samui next week, and am very much looking forward to seeing my friends there and enjoying the Island.

See you (but won't know who you are if I do)!

face to face converation never worked when the club was a problem for hotel guests in Bohpud, so i doubt it would work now. the statement coming back 10 times louder somes them up to me. do you really think if people went up there and spoke to them they would give a dam.

[NALAK]

there is going to be a Fund raiser, so anybody wishing to help can go, apparantly bars being asked to donate 500 baht and 2 grates of beer, suprised Dubai millionaires behind the seen can not bale them out.

[R1CH]

there is going to be a Fund raiser, so anybody wishing to help can go, apparantly bars being asked to donate 500 baht and 2 grates of beer, suprised Dubai millionaires behind the seen can not bale them out.

That's a good idea. I'm off out to try the same thing tonite then, I'll be minted & have enough booze to set up a club by morning.

Which banana boat did this **flame moreved--sbk** jump off?

But I have been hearing something very loud in the direction of Bophut hills for the past 2 nights. Doesn't bother me, I like a bit of a beat

[PoorSucker]

there is going to be a Fund raiser, so anybody wishing to help can go, apparantly bars being asked to donate 500 baht and 2 grates of beer, suprised Dubai millionaires behind the seen can not bale them out.

Why not start with the neighbours.

[1927]

According to Gary's facebook building has re started and hopes to up and running by NYE .....

Take my hat off to him if he manages that

[Oak]

According to Gary's facebook building has re started and hopes to up and running by NYE .....

Take my hat off to him if he manages that

Glad you are happy Sir, your visit here will mean a lot to us.I'm sure that after having a good night out, you will be tucked into a nice bed , having a nice sleep whilst the residents living around the famous club ( oh sorry ) it's not a nightclub, get to do it over & over again.

I still fail to understand , how LAW abiding citizens, do take their hats off to illegal activities.But then I might be simple.

[1927]

According to Gary's facebook building has re started and hopes to up and running by NYE .....

Take my hat off to him if he manages that

Glad you are happy Sir, your visit here will mean a lot to us.I'm sure that after having a good night out, you will be tucked into a nice bed , having a nice sleep whilst the residents living around the famous club ( oh sorry ) it's not a nightclub, get to do it over & over again.

I still fail to understand , how LAW abiding citizens, do take their hats off to illegal activities.But then I might be simple.

it was a simple post saying if he (or anyone) can build a nightclub from scratch in under 2 months i would be very impressed... and thats it

[Gatorade]

According to Gary's facebook building has re started and hopes to up and running by NYE .....

Take my hat off to him if he manages that

Glad you are happy Sir, your visit here will mean a lot to us.I'm sure that after having a good night out, you will be tucked into a nice bed , having a nice sleep whilst the residents living around the famous club ( oh sorry ) it's not a nightclub, get to do it over & over again.

I still fail to understand , how LAW abiding citizens, do take their hats off to illegal activities.But then I might be simple.

it was a simple post saying if he (or anyone) can build a nightclub from scratch in under 2 months i would be very impressed... and thats it

Yes, it was a simple post. Some are more easily impressed than others.

[nod]

According to Gary's facebook building has re started and hopes to up and running by NYE .....

Take my hat off to him if he manages that

Must be looking at a different Facebook. I have not been able to see any statement to that effect on Gary's Facebook.

Mind you I did not see the last quotation that 1927 said was on Gary's Facebook either!

Oh well maybe 1927 just likes stirring up trouble for Gary for some reason. Don't know why as he earlier said he was a friend of his! ????

[1927]

If you really think im making them up why dont you just ask him since your obviously friends on facebook ? .... he added that comment the other day and friday he also stated "building going well" ..... im not in the habbit of making things up

[nod]

If you really think im making them up why dont you just ask him since your obviously friends on facebook ? .... he added that comment the other day and friday he also stated "building going well" ..... im not in the habbit of making things up

Apologies to you 1927 as I understand re building the place now appears to be in progress.

Cheers.

[1927]

apology accepted ... no worries mate.. im not trying to wind anyone up including "Oak" who took slight offence to my post the other day, quite simply if he manages to build his nightclub and have it up and running again by new years eve then that would be very very quick and yes i would be impressed.

for the record i am no friend of Gary's, just a fan of his music - never meet the guy and i reckon if he has had an insurance payout of some sort then maybee this would have been the perfect opportunity to have a little re think on the location since he has to re build from scratch, he obviously hasnt so looks like more fun and games ahead for the locals

[Oak]

Well the music is baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaack & the building now bigger then the Taj Mahal & a different design all together,funny that.

[LaoPo]

Well the music is baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaack & the building now bigger then the Taj Mahal & a different design all together,funny that.

Amazing how fast the authorities work on Samui submitting building permits for a much larger building, after the fire.

LaoPo

[Tracer Round]

Do you really want to know what is going on or not? Pretend you are an investigative reporter....then post all that you learn.

[Stussy55]

They are currently re-building Gecko.......and it's going to be beautiful.

Expect all this nonsense will start all over again now......Try talking to each other this time!

[on-on]

This thread, which I have been reading from Bangkok seemingly for years now, is hilarious. I feel so sorry for the poor bastards who've had to live next to this roller coaster thumping monstrosity. Imagine finding out that it's going to come back after all that's gone on! This should seriously be the plot of a Coen Brothers movie.

This is a good post to use as a jumping off point:

Expect all this nonsense will start all over again now......Try talking to each other this time!

I'm just some guy reading the thread, but you've posted this several times now and people have explained to you several times what happened when people did go and chat, yet you keep ignoring that and posting this. Still, that aside, what do you imagine the fundamental outcome of these chats to be? "Hey, your bar is in my neighborhood and plays loud music - can you change either of those things?" "No" "Okay, nice chat!"

Speaking completely objectively and without any interest in what goes on here the fundamental nature of the debate is irreconcilable. According to everyone involved and everyone around the place (at least after the lies at the beginning of the thread about it not being a club stopped), it's a DJ club that plays loud music until late - that's what it is. No amount of talking appears set to change that, so I imagine all talking is moot. It'd be like asking the red shirts and the yellow shirts to sit down and talk. "Hey, you gonna let Thaksin come back as Prime Minister?" "No" "Okay, nice chat!"

Edited December 6, 2009 by on-on

[samuicanuk]

This thread, which I have been reading from Bangkok seemingly for years now, is hilarious. I feel so sorry for the poor bastards who've had to live next to this roller coaster thumping monstrosity. Imagine finding out that it's going to come back after all that's gone on! This should seriously be the plot of a Coen Brothers movie.

This is a good post to use as a jumping off point:

Expect all this nonsense will start all over again now......Try talking to each other this time!

I'm just some guy reading the thread, but you've posted this several times now and people have explained to you several times what happened when people did go and chat, yet you keep ignoring that and posting this. Still, that aside, what do you imagine the fundamental outcome of these chats to be? "Hey, your bar is in my neighborhood and plays loud music - can you change either of those things?" "No" "Okay, nice chat!"

Speaking completely objectively and without any interest in what goes on here the fundamental nature of the debate is irreconcilable. According to everyone involved and everyone around the place (at least after the lies at the beginning of the thread about it not being a club stopped), it's a DJ club that plays loud music until late - that's what it is. No amount of talking appears set to change that, so I imagine all talking is moot. It'd be like asking the red shirts and the yellow shirts to sit down and talk. "Hey, you gonna let Thaksin come back as Prime Minister?" "No" "Okay, nice chat!"

which leads to the query...what happens when it burns down again?

[concerned]

This thread, which I have been reading from Bangkok seemingly for years now, is hilarious. I feel so sorry for the poor bastards who've had to live next to this roller coaster thumping monstrosity. Imagine finding out that it's going to come back after all that's gone on! This should seriously be the plot of a Coen Brothers movie.

This is a good post to use as a jumping off point:

Expect all this nonsense will start all over again now......Try talking to each other this time!

I'm just some guy reading the thread, but you've posted this several times now and people have explained to you several times what happened when people did go and chat, yet you keep ignoring that and posting this. Still, that aside, what do you imagine the fundamental outcome of these chats to be? "Hey, your bar is in my neighborhood and plays loud music - can you change either of those things?" "No" "Okay, nice chat!"

Speaking completely objectively and without any interest in what goes on here the fundamental nature of the debate is irreconcilable. According to everyone involved and everyone around the place (at least after the lies at the beginning of the thread about it not being a club stopped), it's a DJ club that plays loud music until late - that's what it is. No amount of talking appears set to change that, so I imagine all talking is moot. It'd be like asking the red shirts and the yellow shirts to sit down and talk. "Hey, you gonna let Thaksin come back as Prime Minister?" "No" "Okay, nice chat!"

A just about perfect summary of why people found it pointless going to talk. Let's find out though what this next re-incarnation is going to be, before we judge it. It may be the quiet chilled out venue they promised the first time, and then we can all go and patronise it. However much I live in hope, I'm not holding my breath!