Why The Need For Giant Pick-up Trucks?

[RamdomChances]

I think it's about time that a few myths were exploded: - If you seriously care about your children do NOT under any circumstances buy a pick-up truck!

I think most of your points are quite valid but slightly alarmist so I'll make an effort to try and balance it a bit

These vehicles whilst being sturdy are not up to normal safety standards of monocoque construction road cars;

In so much as they dont have "crumple zones" I would agree

in most countries commercial type vehicles are not subject to the same safety regulations as family transport.

I dont really know but the Isuzu is on sale in the UK and has passed the EU saftey regulations

The manufacturers take advantage of this as it enables them to avoid expensive built-in safety features and produce cheaper vehicles…

I dont know about this, what sort of safty features are you talking about, my Izusu has dual air bags and anti lock brakes as standered.

However, in the event of an accident these vehicles are much more likely to cause serious injury to the occupants, (especially if they are seated unbelted in back!) In the event of collision the body may well become detached from the chassis the "crumple" regions and side bar protection now normal in a car are seriously compromised by the chassis based design of pick-ups. And don't kid yourself that being in the stronger vehicle will protect you, the extra jarring you get from not having good crumple zones will be passed on directly to your body

I think your points about the crumple zones is valid although I would'nt say "uch more likely to cause serious injury to the occupants," As for the side impact I have a feeling that the hight may be an advantage and also as they are usually wider than cars you have more actual space between you and the door. I've never seen or heard of a body becoming detatched.

As for the extra vision this is only a higher view point, not necessarily good all-round vision.

Yea I agree I dont think they nesseseraly have better all round vision, Its bigger though so at least others can see you

The extra height of theses vehicles leads to a higher centre of gravity and a propensity for roll-over accidents, you don’t even need another car to crash with! The poor weight distribution leads to unpredictable handling, and the ride far from being more comfortable is very bouncy due to the stiff rudimentary leaf suspension designed to take heavy loads rather than absorb bumps.

If you drive around in one of these you are lulled into a false sense of security; you are in fact considerably more vulnerable than someone in a modern sedan.

Yes the height does give them a higher center of gravity, but saying that they have "a propensity for roll-over accidents, you don’t even need another car to crash with! " is a bit over the top. As for "The poor weight distribution" well actually they may well have better "weight distribution' than a standered front wheel drive car as they have a rear axel which will give a more even distrabution. The handling is not "unpredictable" if you drive it to the limits of grip, the back end will come out the same as any normal rear wheel car. Although if the weather is really bad, or you are traveling across very windy roads and select 4wd, you will really have to be trying to get it to lose it grip and then it just tends to drift.

The ride is no where near as good as a modern car as you rightly mentioned due to the rear leaf springs. These springs do also affect the handling of the car and while its not "unpredictable" the back does break really quickly at the limits (which are pretty high)

If you drive around in one of these you are lulled into a false sense of security; you are in fact considerably more vulnerable than someone in a modern sedan.

Yes I suppose you do get a bit of a false sence of security, but I would say that cars are only marginaly safer and then not in all circumstances. One thing you did'nt mention "pot holes". If you live out in the country and need to drive in the night these can be a major hazard. I've seen cars with the front spension ripped off, in this respect the 4wd pick up definatly has the advantage.

When it comes to 4wd, and that is largely where the height comes in there are 2 distinct types: The most common in Thailand is the modified pick-up – this suffers from all of the draw backs I mention above. The second type is the purpose built 4wd i.e. Land Rover, Landcruiser, trooper and Pajero, these vehicles are designed with serious off road use in mind and have totally different road behaviour and centre of gravity characteristics. The third generation art the SUVs, they are very much a mixed bag. For example the Ford explorer and the Ford escape – the explorer is a pick-up with a station-wagon body, the Escape is an occasional off-roader designed from the ground up, this will explain why it is more expensive than the larger Explorer.

Yes thats right the Isuzu D max , toyota whatever and the rest as converted pick-ups and that why they are cheaper, most purpose built ones have coil springs all round with a much better ride.

Just a few more point of my own the engines 2.5 and 3 litre are big but not that powerful (about 120 bhp and 105 bhp) they all pull well from low rev's and offer resonable fuel consumption from cheaper diesel fuel, saying that a small car will still work out cheaper on fuel. I used to have a toyota saluna 1.5i that knocked out about 105 bhp as well, but even taking into account the fuel was more expensive it was still a fair bit cheaper than the 4wd and quicker.

If I lived in a BKK or a city I would probably go for a car, more nimbal, cheaper to run(if you dont count the depreciation) and a better ride quality, but out in the sticks it's no contest really the 4 door 4wd pickup while not the best at everything still knocks spots of the competition, even then if you dont get out onto really bad roads the 4wd option is not really nessesary (but its nice )

Cheers RC

Edited January 11, 2005 by RamdomChances

[Diggerbasher]

My Toyota does 14 kpl and i feel safe in it as opposed to a car where you are so low down relative to the maniacs in their trucks.

[Ajarn]

I think it's about time that a few myths were exploded: - If you seriously care about your children do NOT under any circumstances buy a pick-up truck!

I think most of your points are quite valid but slightly alarmist so I'll make an effort to try and balance it a bit

These vehicles whilst being sturdy are not up to normal safety standards of monocoque construction road cars;

In so much as they dont have "crumple zones" I would agree

in most countries commercial type vehicles are not subject to the same safety regulations as family transport.

I dont really know but the Isuzu is on sale in the UK and has passed the EU saftey regulations

The manufacturers take advantage of this as it enables them to avoid expensive built-in safety features and produce cheaper vehicles…

I dont know about this, what sort of safty features are you talking about, my Izusu has dual air bags and anti lock brakes as standered.

However, in the event of an accident these vehicles are much more likely to cause serious injury to the occupants, (especially if they are seated unbelted in back!) In the event of collision the body may well become detached from the chassis the "crumple" regions and side bar protection now normal in a car are seriously compromised by the chassis based design of pick-ups. And don't kid yourself that being in the stronger vehicle will protect you, the extra jarring you get from not having good crumple zones will be passed on directly to your body

I think your points about the crumple zones is valid although I would'nt say "uch more likely to cause serious injury to the occupants," As for the side impact I have a feeling that the hight may be an advantage and also as they are usually wider than cars you have more actual space between you and the door. I've never seen or heard of a body becoming detatched.

As for the extra vision this is only a higher view point, not necessarily good all-round vision.

Yea I agree I dont think they nesseseraly have better all round vision, Its bigger though so at least others can see you

The extra height of theses vehicles leads to a higher centre of gravity and a propensity for roll-over accidents, you don’t even need another car to crash with! The poor weight distribution leads to unpredictable handling, and the ride far from being more comfortable is very bouncy due to the stiff rudimentary leaf suspension designed to take heavy loads rather than absorb bumps.

If you drive around in one of these you are lulled into a false sense of security; you are in fact considerably more vulnerable than someone in a modern sedan.

Yes the height does give them a higher center of gravity, but saying that they have "a propensity for roll-over accidents, you don’t even need another car to crash with! " is a bit over the top. As for "The poor weight distribution" well actually they may well have better "weight distribution' than a standered front wheel drive car as they have a rear axel which will give a more even distrabution. The handling is not "unpredictable" if you drive it to the limits of grip, the back end will come out the same as any normal rear wheel car. Although if the weather is really bad, or you are traveling across very windy roads and select 4wd, you will really have to be trying to get it to lose it grip and then it just tends to drift.

The ride is no where near as good as a modern car as you rightly mentioned due to the rear leaf springs. These springs do also affect the handling of the car and while its not "unpredictable" the back does break really quickly at the limits (which are pretty high)

If you drive around in one of these you are lulled into a false sense of security; you are in fact considerably more vulnerable than someone in a modern sedan.

Yes I suppose you do get a bit of a false sence of security, but I would say that cars are only marginaly safer and then not in all circumstances. One thing you did'nt mention "pot holes". If you live out in the country and need to drive in the night these can be a major hazard. I've seen cars with the front spension ripped off, in this respect the 4wd pick up definatly has the advantage.

When it comes to 4wd, and that is largely where the height comes in there are 2 distinct types: The most common in Thailand is the modified pick-up – this suffers from all of the draw backs I mention above. The second type is the purpose built 4wd i.e. Land Rover, Landcruiser, trooper and Pajero, these vehicles are designed with serious off road use in mind and have totally different road behaviour and centre of gravity characteristics. The third generation art the SUVs, they are very much a mixed bag. For example the Ford explorer and the Ford escape – the explorer is a pick-up with a station-wagon body, the Escape is an occasional off-roader designed from the ground up, this will explain why it is more expensive than the larger Explorer.

Yes thats right the Isuzu D max , toyota whatever and the rest as converted pick-ups and that why they are cheaper, most purpose built ones have coil springs all round with a much better ride.

Just a few more point of my own the engines 2.5 and 3 litre are big but not that powerful (about 120 bhp and 105 bhp) they all pull well from low rev's and offer resonable fuel consumption from cheaper diesel fuel, saying that a small car will still work out cheaper on fuel. I used to have a toyota saluna 1.5i that knocked out about 105 bhp as well, but even taking into account the fuel was more expensive it was still a fair bit cheaper than the 4wd and quicker.

If I lived in a BKK or a city I would probably go for a car, more nimbal, cheaper to run(if you dont count the depreciation) and a better ride quality, but out in the sticks it's no contest really the 4 door 4wd pickup while not the best at everything still knocks spots of the competition, even then if you dont get out onto really bad roads the 4wd option is not really nessesary (but its nice )

Cheers RC

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Another example of where balanced views provide a better education than unbalanced views

[bina]

hi random!!

definately go for the pickups....... but not the mini's like my subaru sprint not 4wd... when loaded with animals that move, a very scary ride; when loaded with 7 to 10 slightly drunk thai men, even scarier, a quarter of a bale of hay fits in nicely but we still go very slow on the one lane cliff edge road leading to the kibbutz.... isuzu double cabin 4wd are what are used in the fields ; cars are like guns and big dogs,

if its a useful functional tool, then get one;

if its just for show, check the size of your little man friend

[aletta]

Toyota Vios for me.Small and economical and very dull.Just like me !!

[wilko]

Sorry Random, but I've got to take you up on a couple of points; I’m not sure where you get your info from or did you just guess? ‘Cos almost all of it I have to disagree with…

Firstly your Isuzu is classed in Europe as a commercial vehicle and has a different set of regulations covering it from a private passenger vehicle.… being in line with regulations means nothing if they don’t insist on safe construction.

By the way is it 2 or 4 door or 4wd?

The safety features I’m talking about are inherent design features, such as the way the vehicle behaves on impact or when driving. Air-bags and ABS whilst helpful are merely “nail-on” goodies. When a car crashes its body and mechanical parts are designed and assembled in such a way so as not to intrude into the passenger compartment or fly off and injure out side the vehicle. The basic nature of pickups makes this less feasible; in particular a chassis built design.

Now take a look at the picture of this mini and the Ford 150 pickup -

I know that this is a couple of years old but the point is clear –

I quote – “Both of these vehicles hit the exact same off-set barrier at 40mph. Now there's no question what would win in a head-on collision between the two

The MINI had almost no intrusion which "indicates that the driver's survival space was maintained very well" - the F150 on the other hand had "Major collapse of the occupant compartment that left little survival space for the driver." “

Again side impact is nothing to do with height it’s to do with intrusion into passenger space. As for the body separating from the chassis, this is quite common; there was a photo of such a crash in the Pattaya mail only a few weeks ago. Disintegration is a serious problem as it obviously endangers other people but also the vehicle has lost all adhesion and control.

Roll-overs – A well documented form of accident in the Australian out back is the single vehicle roll-over; a speeding pickup goes to the edge of the road is then deflected and swerves across, with the high centre of gravity it then rolls, a car would spin, this is not just an Australian phenomenon it occurs everywhere where the roads are less than 100%. There is a call to legislate in both USA and Australia.

As for weight distribution I’m afraid you’re thoroughly mistaken. It’s quite the opposite of what you suppose. The heaviest component in both vehicles is the engine (a diesel is particularly heavy) with a front wheel drive car this puts the weight over the driving wheels, the seats and bodywork add weight to the rear. The ideal weight distribution should be 50/50 on each axle – this is seldom achieved without having a mid-engined car.

On a pickup however the weight is all at the front as the usually empty back is light and also extra sprung to cope with a possible load of up to a ton. When empty, the driving wheels have relatively little weight on them allowing them to loose grip on wet or muddy roads.

Handling is not just how a car behaves when cornering it refers to how the car behaves and responds in all circumstances when driven, for instance hitting a rut or pothole, the poor suspension can lead to control difficulties in a pickup not encountered in a car, i.e. pitching, loss of directional control or grip. This can happen unexpectedly at quite low speeds. This is particularly so in 4wd pickups whose suspension geometry has been altered to achieve the additional ground clearance.

I agree that in poor road conditions it is very useful to engage 4wd all this does is make the vehicle less dangerous but still not on the level of a standard family sedan. In fact some cars and many purpose designed vehicles have optional or permanent 4wd together with a higher built in level of safety.

When it comes to potholes; firstly if they’re really big, why didn’t you see them? However the suspension on a pick up is in fact no stronger than some saloons and I’ve seen many a pickup with its running gear ripped off for one reason or another. Then there is the problem of control after hitting a pothole I mentioned earlier. If you went a pothole–proof car get a 2CV Citroen!

In both Australia and the US there is a lot of debate over the issues surrounding pickup trucks and their SUV cousins. To some extent this debate also occurs in the UK but here there is a much lower ownership rate.

The safety concerns are very real and this in countries where carrying passengers in an open back is banned. (A Carrymore gives no protection in an accident) If you want to get an idea of what happens to people in a crash without seat-belts i.e. in a Carrymore, put 2 eggs in an egg box and shake it then put the eggs in a shoe box and shake it; you’ll find the experiment only works one way.

I’m not arguing for a ban or anything but I think people should be aware of the dangers involved if these vehicles are driven without due care or get in an accident.

Furthermore it has been shown in several studies that along with failing to protect their occupants, pickups also wound and kill more of the people they crash into.

Bull or Roo - bars are in particular noted for excessive injuries to pedestrians. They interfere with the rounded edges designed to deflect and absorb the impact on humans.

What vehicle do I drive? A Mitsubishi Grandis of course! Before that? A Landcruiser, Landcruiser Troopy, before that Range Rovers, Discovery, and various Land Rovers, I even once drove a 4wd drive Capri!

Edited January 12, 2005 by wilko

[Ajarn]

###### Kill Joy!

Well-presented info and important food for thought, though. Cheers

[chuchok]

###### Kill Joy!

Well-presented info and important food for thought, though. Cheers 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don't you hate it when somebody is on the money?

I have heard though, that the new generation of 4x4 are better made with a wider wheel base etc....is this true?

[Ajarn]

###### Kill Joy!

Well-presented info and important food for thought, though. Cheers 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don't you hate it when somebody is on the money?

I have heard though, that the new generation of 4x4 are better made with a wider wheel base etc....is this true?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You mean the Humvee?

[chuchok]

I saw on a recent tv program, that most of the 4x4 had a much wider wheel base and were better built than their predecessors.(2002 on I think?)..(Toyota, Ford ,GM etc)

Humvee would be nice for a large lad like me though....

Edited January 12, 2005 by chuchok

[Darknight]

###### Kill Joy!

Well-presented info and important food for thought, though. Cheers 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don't you hate it when somebody is on the money?

I have heard though, that the new generation of 4x4 are better made with a wider wheel base etc....is this true?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You mean the Humvee?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Have a look at this accident between a hummer and a toyota MR.

Toyota rear ended the hummer pretty fast

The hummer had worse damage !!!

It's license plate was all bent

[chuchok]

###### Kill Joy!

Well-presented info and important food for thought, though. Cheers 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don't you hate it when somebody is on the money?

I have heard though, that the new generation of 4x4 are better made with a wider wheel base etc....is this true?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You mean the Humvee?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Have a look at this accident between a hummer and a toyota MR.

Toyota rear ended the hummer pretty fast

The hummer had worse damage !!!

It's license plate was all bent

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But Dark, a little Toyota like that is MADE for little people

[Boon Mee]

Anyone recall the Randy Newman song "Short People" (got no reason to...)

[RamdomChances]

Sorry Random, but I've got to take you up on a couple of points; I’m not sure where you get your info from or did you just guess? ‘Cos almost all of it I have to disagree with…

Just guessed most of it, based on personal experiance. How can you " almost all of it I have to disagree with…" when in most of the issues I actually agreed with you. Oh I've got a 4 door 4wd by the way, also a nissan frontier 2wd pickup, and used to have the old style isuzu 2 door 4wd, I've also raced cars and "modded" them in one of my previous lifes

Firstly your Isuzu is classed in Europe as a commercial vehicle and has a different set of regulations covering it from a private passenger vehicle.… being in line with regulations means nothing if they don’t insist on safe construction.

By the way is it 2 or 4 door or 4wd?

The safety features I’m talking about are inherent design features, such as the way the vehicle behaves on impact or when driving. Air-bags and ABS whilst helpful are merely “nail-on” goodies. When a car crashes its body and mechanical parts are designed and assembled in such a way so as not to intrude into the passenger compartment or fly off and injure out side the vehicle. The basic nature of pickups makes this less feasible; in particular a chassis built design.

Ok I did a quick search and did'nt come up with anything saying they pass different regulations, not saying they have'nt got to but I could'nt find anything, and I've already agreed with you about the "crumple zones"

Also this from http://www.thailandautoexports.com/isuzu/c...tml/safety.html

PASSIVE SAFETY

* New close-section collapsible body structure and newly designed chassis to absorb impact in passenger cabin. Passing FMVSS standard from USA.

* New! Dual SRS Airbags** protect passengers from impact both driver and front seat.

* Side door beam to reduce the injury from side collision.

* Collapsible steering column reduce the impact from accident.

* Laminated glass windshield.

* 3-point height adjustment safety belt with automatic lock.

* New safety Front Bumper Structure Reinforcement to reduce impact and damage in case bumping against pedestrian.

Had a quick look for the FMVSS standards, but could'nt find a lot.

I quote – “Both of these vehicles hit the exact same off-set barrier at 40mph. Now there's no question what would win in a head-on collision between the two

The MINI had almost no intrusion which "indicates that the driver's survival space was maintained very well" - the F150 on the other hand had "Major collapse of the occupant compartment that left little survival space for the driver." “

On the subject of testing, both of these tests were probably carried out driving into a "solid block" and do not take into account the inherent mass and inertia of the car, which in this case would work agains the heavyer 4wd, is most real life accidents involving other cars the added mass of the 4wd would have a definate advantage, after all large lorry's have no "crumple zones" would you want to drive a mimi into one??. Even euronacp, the EU safty testing people take this into consdieration on their ratings and tests.

http://www.euroncap.com/content/faqs/faqs.php

21. Are large cars safer than small cars?

From the laws of physics, all other things being equal, heavy cars do better than light cars when they are involved in a frontal impact. To avoid mass effects, Euro NCAP tests and compares cars within size categories. The safety of cars in a size category is not a function of mass, but it is dependent upon good design.

22. Can results be compared between groups?

Results should only be compared within the same group. The frontal testing method mirrors a crash between two similar sized cars. Clearly a bigger car has an advantage if it hits a smaller car and Euro NCAP results can’t be used to predict the outcome of such crashes.

Roll-overs – A well documented form of accident in the Australian out back is the single vehicle roll-over; a speeding pickup goes to the edge of the road is then deflected and swerves across, with the high centre of gravity it then rolls, a car would spin, this is not just an Australian phenomenon it occurs everywhere where the roads are less than 100%. There is a call to legislate in both USA and Australia.

A higher center of gravity will of course make it easier to roll-over, I did'nt think I disagreed with you last time. I'm only trying to point out that in normal driving your car is'nt just going to "fall over", they are'nt sports cars!!

This link throws some doute on the matter

http://www.junkscience.com/consumer/consumer_suv.htm

I don't know much about the site of if they have their own agenda, but have a look if you want and decide for your self

Again side impact is nothing to do with height it’s to do with intrusion into passenger space

I disagree with the hight bit but not the "intrusion into passenger space" I wrote..

they are usually wider than cars you have more actual space between you and the door

What I meant about the height possabily being an advantage is that most cars will not hit the door head on and may have a tendancy to "drive under" the 4wd, where as if you hit a mini side on you as probably right at passenger level, just think about mini being hit in the side by 4wd and 4wd being hit in the side by mini, which one would you want to be in!!

As for weight distribution I’m afraid you’re thoroughly mistaken. It’s quite the opposite of what you suppose. The heaviest component in both vehicles is the engine (a diesel is particularly heavy) with a front wheel drive car this puts the weight over the driving wheels, the seats and bodywork add weight to the rear. The ideal weight distribution should be 50/50 on each axle – this is seldom achieved without having a mid-engined car.

On a pickup however the weight is all at the front as the usually empty back is light and also extra sprung to cope with a possible load of up to a ton. When empty, the driving wheels have relatively little weight on them allowing them to loose grip on wet or muddy roads.

I'm afraid i'm going to have to disagree with this, yes the heavest componant is the engine, followed buy the gear box and back axel (if you have one). A front engined, front wheel drive car does put most of its weight over the front (driven) wheels as you stated, so how can it have a better "weight distribution". Most front wheel drive cars also have the g-box underneath the engine all at the front, I would think that the "bodywork and seats" would be a marginal weight in comparison with these heavy chunks of metal. A rear wheel drive (pick-up or car) will usually have the g-box behind the engine and the back axel at the back, giving a more even weight distribution although with less weight over the driven wheels.

I agree with the " extra sprung to cope with a possible load of up to a ton" and this can make them a bit "jittery" when unloaded, which I also stated in my previous post

I wrote.............

The ride is no where near as good as a modern car as you rightly mentioned due to the rear leaf springs. These springs do also affect the handling of the car and while its not "unpredictable" the back does break really quickly at the limits (which are pretty high)

.

Handling is not just how a car behaves when cornering it refers to how the car behaves and responds in all circumstances when driven, for instance hitting a rut or pothole, the poor suspension can lead to control difficulties in a pickup not encountered in a car, i.e. pitching, loss of directional control or grip. This can happen unexpectedly at quite low speeds. This is particularly so in 4wd pickups whose suspension geometry has been altered to achieve the additional ground clearance.

Yes I agree again about the handling being an "overall" assesment" and "poor suspension can hapen on all sorts of cars not just pick-up's, remember the "A" class merc when they first brought it out. The bit about the changing of the suspension geometry in 4wd pick-ups, well if its a stock set up it should have been done buy the manufacture and I wouldnt think you would have many problems, if you raise it as an after market add on, then yes I agree with you (its usually just for show anyway)

When it comes to potholes; firstly if they’re really big, why didn’t you see them? However the suspension on a pick up is in fact no stronger than some saloons and I’ve seen many a pickup with its running gear ripped off for one reason or another. Then there is the problem of control after hitting a pothole I mentioned earlier. If you went a pothole–proof car get a 2CV Citroen!

As I stated.........

If you live out in the country and need to drive in the night these can be a major hazard.

Thats why you can't see them cos it's night the suspension amy not be any stronger than "SOME saloons" but I think on average it probably is stronger than MOST. I know what I would prefer to be driving if I hit one and its not a 2cv

The bit's about the people in the back I full agree with, commom scence really, I still carry them sometimes though TIT and fully agree with the fact they are more dangerous to pedestrians especially if you have bars fitted. It would be good to try not to hit any

Just to clarify, things I have "guessed" are caveted by " i thing" or "feel" ect, anythin else I've include the links as a lot of internet stuff is very easy to "misquote" or the sites have their own agendas

Like I said in the previous post (if you read it propely ) I dont disagree with most of your comments but I juts think they are a bit "alarmist". Saying that I would'nt buy one for safty concerns, but for thier general vesatility.

Cheers RC

Dont know whats happening with the "quotes" so I put your in blue

Edited January 13, 2005 by RamdomChances

[Neeranam]

Some very interesting posts.

Some of the posts suggest that more mass is safer, so go out and buy a bigger, heavier car/truck than the other guys. Where will this end, when they are all driving bloody 10 ton trucks? "I am bigger than you so you get out my way" attitude is very sad.

Good post showing the photos of the mini and the truck, but as someone else suggested, if the mini hit a truck head on, what would you rather be in? I am not sure. Before seeing the photos, I would have definately said the pick-up. Now maybe the mini. I fell a bit safer now if I hit a tree, but will stay out of the way of super dooper speeding vigos.

So most pick-up drivers say they are safer. Are they being fooled by the manufacturers? Advertising? Size thing?

[Petesear]

Because most pick-ups have bull bars and the like I'd rather be in the pick-up than the mini in the event of a head on... and in the pictures shown the cars hit a barrier, I think they would look a tad different after a head on with the pick-up riding much higher than the mini....

[Neeranam]

sorry couldn't post a funny picture about the new Porsche 4x4.

What is that all about? landrover too cheap? One up on the Jones's?

Edited January 13, 2005 by Neeranam

[andyadam]

After a great deal of searching on the net I have found out the reason;

In the early 1600's Siam was Visited by the little known English explorer, Wayne Smiff, from Romford which is of course in ESSEX, the subsequent inter breeding btween Siamese and Essexese resulted in the so called "Wayne gene" hence the need for big pick up's and really tacky mods on the cars here!!!!!

[jackr]

Bit long-winded this thread. Pick-ups are the best all-round vehicle to have in los, unless living in Bangkok and the-like. Cheaper fuel, tax, better by-back rate, ability to throw 15 Thai's in the back, throw it around on dodgy tracks up-country, and move house...end of story!

[wilko]

Because most pick-ups have bull bars and the like I'd rather be in the pick-up than the mini in the event of a head on...  and in the pictures shown the cars hit a barrier, I think they would look a tad different after a head on with the pick-up riding much higher than the mini....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are completely mistaken on everything here.

[wilko]

Bit long-winded this thread. Pick-ups are the best all-round vehicle to have in los, unless living in Bangkok and the-like. Cheaper fuel, tax, better by-back rate, ability to throw 15 Thai's in the back, throw it around on dodgy tracks up-country, and move house...end of story!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Totally agree with the long-winded; can't be arsed to continue with this....

[wilko]

OK – I can’t let a couple of points go by uncorrected –

Firstly these ideas of mass and weight...

For the purposes of this Thailand forum we are largely talking, are we not, of Toyota, Mitsubishi and Isuzu pickups etc? Well they weigh about 1800 to 1900 kg., and your average family saloon like a Camry or Accord? Well just a little more 1900+ kg.

The other problem I see is the picture of the Hummer victim – it would appear that the vehicle did more or less what it was meant to do – i.e. absorb the impact coming to a halt protecting the occupants in the passenger compartment. Now the Hummer just received a dented number plate, but it also received and impact from a car which it did not absorb, so the energy is then transmitted to the vehicle which could easily have jolted forward giving the occupants a severe dose of whiplash. The whole point of a crumple zone is to absorb impact and come to a halt a “gently” as possible. If you hit a rock with a hammer it will do little damage to the rock but if the rock is tied to your head, the impact is transmitted straight to you! Much better to wear a spongey thing even though it might not look so good after...

Things like bull bars bolted to the vehicle also interfere with this process. Crashing is not the science of howmuch damage you can inflict on the other vehicle it's a matter of survival, and basicly if it comes to the crunch...you're better off in a monocoque vehicle...oh a trucks do have crumple zones and in many countries thins to stop you going under them.

Oh and the other thing about weight distribution – the engine and gearbox assembly, whether they be inline, transverse or over-under are fitted over the front axle and front half of the vehicle, the weight is largely transmitted onto the front axle. Alfa Romeo make the only vehicle I can think of off hand that has the gear-box over the rear axle to give a near enough 50/50 distribution. Furthermore, I can pick up an axle or a prop shaft but there’s no way I’m trying to lift engines and gearboxes.

As for rollovers – yes - they’ve found that just a minor increase in “track” not “wheel-base” (that’s front to back – we’re talking width) can improve the vehicles resistance to rollover greatly. Now go compare you track to a model 3 years ago…

There’s loads more but life’s too short….

[jackr]

OK – I can’t let a couple of points go by uncorrected –

Firstly these ideas of mass and weight...

For the purposes of this Thailand forum we are largely talking, are we not, of Toyota, Mitsubishi and Isuzu pickups etc? Well they weigh about 1800 to 1900 kg., and your average family saloon like a Camry or Accord? Well just a little more 1900+ kg.

The other problem I see is the picture of the Hummer victim – it would appear that the vehicle did more or less what it was meant to do – i.e. absorb the impact coming to a halt protecting the occupants in the passenger compartment. Now the Hummer just received a dented number plate, but it also received and impact from a car which it did not absorb, so the energy is then transmitted to the vehicle which could easily have jolted forward giving the occupants a severe dose of whiplash. The whole point of a crumple zone is to absorb impact and come to a halt a “gently” as possible. If you hit a rock with a hammer it will do little damage to the rock but if the rock is tied to your head, the impact is transmitted straight to you! Much better to wear a spongey thing even though it might not look so good after...

Things like bull bars bolted to the vehicle also interfere with this process. Crashing is not the science of howmuch damage you can inflict on the other vehicle it's a matter of survival, and basicly if it comes to the crunch...you're better off in a monocoque vehicle...oh a trucks do have crumple zones and in many countries thins to stop you going under them.

Oh and the other thing about weight distribution – the engine and gearbox assembly, whether they be inline, transverse or over-under are fitted over the front axle and front half of the vehicle, the weight is largely transmitted onto the front axle. Alfa Romeo make the only vehicle I can think of off hand that has the gear-box over the rear axle to give a near enough 50/50 distribution. Furthermore, I can pick up an axle or a prop shaft but there’s no way I’m trying to lift engines and gearboxes.

As for rollovers – yes - they’ve found that just a minor increase in “track” not “wheel-base” (that’s front to back – we’re talking width) can improve the vehicles resistance to rollover greatly. Now go compare you track to a model 3 years ago…

There’s loads more but life’s too short….

What's the point of a crumple zone when you get smashed by an 18-wheeler at 100kph is what many will ask? You obviously know your stuff and all your points are valid but at the end of the day, most average Thais and Farangs in los prefer convenience and all-roundedness and the pick-up gives them this.

[snoophound]

Can see some need for a fwd in thailand,or even a little 4 seater ute as many of the small businesses find these useful

what really shits me is sydney is the amount fwds hogging the road in the city.

Usualy driven by very small men,or frumpy housewifes clogging the roads dropping the kids off to school,those shithouses on wheels are an eyesore and are definitely no safer than an average car.

A hummer well Schwarzenegger drives one doesnt he ,say no more

OK – I can’t let a couple of points go by uncorrected –

Firstly these ideas of mass and weight...

For the purposes of this Thailand forum we are largely talking, are we not, of Toyota, Mitsubishi and Isuzu pickups etc? Well they weigh about 1800 to 1900 kg., and your average family saloon like a Camry or Accord? Well just a little more 1900+ kg.

The other problem I see is the picture of the Hummer victim – it would appear that the vehicle did more or less what it was meant to do – i.e. absorb the impact coming to a halt protecting the occupants in the passenger compartment. Now the Hummer just received a dented number plate, but it also received and impact from a car which it did not absorb, so the energy is then transmitted to the vehicle which could easily have jolted forward giving the occupants a severe dose of whiplash. The whole point of a crumple zone is to absorb impact and come to a halt a “gently” as possible. If you hit a rock with a hammer it will do little damage to the rock but if the rock is tied to your head, the impact is transmitted straight to you! Much better to wear a spongey thing even though it might not look so good after...

Things like bull bars bolted to the vehicle also interfere with this process. Crashing is not the science of howmuch damage you can inflict on the other vehicle it's a matter of survival, and basicly if it comes to the crunch...you're better off in a monocoque vehicle...oh a trucks do have crumple zones and in many countries thins to stop you going under them.

Oh and the other thing about weight distribution – the engine and gearbox assembly, whether they be inline, transverse or over-under are fitted over the front axle and front half of the vehicle, the weight is largely transmitted onto the front axle. Alfa Romeo make the only vehicle I can think of off hand that has the gear-box over the rear axle to give a near enough 50/50 distribution. Furthermore, I can pick up an axle or a prop shaft but there’s no way I’m trying to lift engines and gearboxes.

As for rollovers – yes - they’ve found that just a minor increase in “track” not “wheel-base” (that’s front to back – we’re talking width) can improve the vehicles resistance to rollover greatly. Now go compare you track to a model 3 years ago…

There’s loads more but life’s too short….

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What's the point of a crumple zone when you get smashed by an 18-wheeler at 100kph is what many will ask? You obviously know your stuff and all your points are valid but at the end of the day, most average Thais and Farangs in los prefer convenience and all-roundedness and the pick-up gives them this.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[TizMe]

what really shits me is sydney is the amount fwds hogging the road in the city.

Usualy driven by very small men,or frumpy housewifes clogging the roads dropping the kids off to school,those shithouses on wheels are an eyesore and are definitely no safer than an average car

Sounds just like a wang-ker that I knew back in Oz. He decided to take the family vacation to Fraser Island, so what did he do, he hired another FWD so he didn't get any sand in his...

Edited January 15, 2005 by TizMe

[abbas]

I have a Toyota Tiger and had an accident the car was full of people front and back

Hit Isuzu at the speed of 80 kph only lost my bumper so did the Isuzu the only humanly damage maintained in that memorable hit was a stupid thai guy setting in the back drinking beer from the bottle, the bottle hit him on the lip that?s it.

It shows pickups are safe not beer

[Neeranam]

only humanly damage maintained in that memorable hit was a stupid thai guy setting in the back drinking beer from the bottle

Was the Thai guy stupid for sitting in the back or drinking beer, or being Thai ?

Edited January 16, 2005 by Neeranam

[RDN]

only humanly damage maintained in that memorable hit was a stupid thai guy setting in the back drinking beer from the bottle

Was the Thai guy stupid for sitting in the back or drinking beer, or being Thai ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

....or drinking from a bottle rather than a can?

....or sitting rather than standing?

[steadirob]

jesus h. christ ! how do you reduce the size of uploaded photos !!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Make them smaller like 600x450 in photoshop or such BEFORE you uploade!!!

[Neeranam]

Sounds just like a wang-ker that I knew back in Oz. He decided to take the family vacation to Fraser Island, so what did he do, he hired another FWD so he didn't get any sand in his...

I know a guy in Thailand with a new toyota pick-up - he's renting another to help his wife's family on the farm as he doesn't want his one dirty!