Dodgy Books

[LivinLOS]

I gotta say, I still don't understand what you mean when you talk about a "book you can't prove"... The way to "prove" a book is to take the book and the bike to the DMV. Now I understand the Phuket DMV are being bastards, and that's often a challenge in Thailand- that different offices do things differently, but when I sold my Ninja in Chiang Mai it was an incredibly easy and pleasant experience and the buyer knows 110% that the bike he bought from me is 100% legit.

Happy Trails!

Tony

Then your still not getting the various different levels of dodgy books..

A 'recycled book' (which I would estimate a huge % of the big bikes have) sometimes called a grey book but that can also mean many other things too.. Is a book thats in the computer system but the bike has been wrecked, died, stolen, or any one of 10's of things.. A similar bike (hopefully exactly the same but theres a lot of miss matched ones out there) in age, model, and make is then restamped using the books frame number.. The engine numbers can either be changed on the book or on the bike and the color the same..

So this is then a bike, that will pass at the DMV, thats in the computer system, but is still bent. If its done right, the frame numbers are perfectly ground, re-aligned, and painted its impossible to tell (forensic x-rays being a bit beyond somchai) for both the public buyer or the DMV. I know they will go back through a bikes history now and see if it had a time in the past when many items all changed at once, and use that as a point of suspicion.

Then theres forged books, and the paid customs officials, just lots of different ways the market is crooked. But I would say the vast majority of bad books are recycled ones and theres simply no way to tell with 100% certainty that a bike is clean. So any second hand purchase is a case of playing the guessing game, and swimming in the muddy water. You would think that buying from a large dealer ship would be some assurance but from what I can see thats not really the case.

[LivinLOS]

but when I sold my Ninja in Chiang Mai it was an incredibly easy and pleasant experience and the buyer knows 110% that the bike he bought from me is 100% legit.

sorry to harp on this..

In your case he would be fairly confident.. The Kwaker being recently sold, and semi low value compared to others, and the fact you have an online persona and they have followed the history of the bike. All those things are trust not 110% knowledge tho.

But he still isnt able to verify any of that !! he doesnt know 110% he only trusts you.. While the value of them (ninjetts) in Thailand v elsewhere makes this an illogical act, theres nothing the buyer can do, to know that the bike and book are a true match, you could have killed one bike and subbed another. when you look at bike bike pricing theres often >500k margin between overseas prices and local prices, if you write a bike off its pretty easy to bring another in on its plate, and the process is all the same as above.

[BigBikeBKK]

I gotta say, I still don't understand what you mean when you talk about a "book you can't prove"... The way to "prove" a book is to take the book and the bike to the DMV. Now I understand the Phuket DMV are being bastards, and that's often a challenge in Thailand- that different offices do things differently, but when I sold my Ninja in Chiang Mai it was an incredibly easy and pleasant experience and the buyer knows 110% that the bike he bought from me is 100% legit.

Happy Trails!

Tony

Then your still not getting the various different levels of dodgy books.. I GET the "levels" of dodgy books, and I choose to avoid ALL of them.

A 'recycled book' (which I would estimate a huge % of the big bikes have) sometimes called a grey book (why don't you just call it what it is- an illegal forgery to be avoided at all costs!) but that can also mean many other things too.. Is a book thats in the computer system but the bike has been wrecked, died, stolen, or any one of 10's of things.. A similar bike (hopefully exactly the same but theres a lot of miss matched ones out there) in age, model, and make is then restamped using the books frame number.. The engine numbers can either be changed on the book or on the bike and the color the same..

So this is then a bike, that will (MIGHT) pass at the DMV, thats in the computer system, but is still bent. If (BIG IF) its done right, the frame numbers are perfectly ground, re-aligned, and painted its impossible to tell (forensic x-rays being a bit beyond somchai) for both the public buyer or the DMV. I know they will go back through a bikes history now and see if it had a time in the past when many items all changed at once, and use that as a point of suspicion.

Then theres forged books, and the paid customs officials, just lots of different ways the market is crooked. Well, you have a CHOICE to play it crooked or play it straight...

But I would say the vast majority of bad books are recycled ones and theres simply no way to tell with 100% certainty that a bike is clean.

Again I disagree- if you take bike and book to the DMV and the DMV inspects both and says everything is on the up and up, you are in the clear. Why is this so complicated? In your case either the Phuket DMV is trying to bust your balls, OR there's something wrong with the book and/or bike and/or DMV records that raised a red flag.

So any second hand purchase is a case of playing the guessing game, and swimming in the muddy water. You would think that buying from a large dealer ship would be some assurance but from what I can see thats not really the case.

I really do with you the best of luck with the CBR- seems you've found a way to get the paperwork done so good on you. Hope we can hook up for another ride soon! All the best, Tony

[CroBiker]

Did not know that Barcelona Auto Co. Ltd the official BMW dealer for Phuket ever closed for business?

They didn't. Official Phuket BMW bike and car dealer was Performance Auto but they went belly up in 2007. Barcelona took over.

[BigBikeBKK]

but when I sold my Ninja in Chiang Mai it was an incredibly easy and pleasant experience and the buyer knows 110% that the bike he bought from me is 100% legit.

sorry to harp on this..

In your case he would be fairly confident.. The Kwaker being recently sold, and semi low value compared to others, and the fact you have an online persona and they have followed the history of the bike. All those things are trust not 110% knowledge tho.

But he still isnt able to verify any of that !! he doesnt know 110% he only trusts you.. While the value of them (ninjetts) in Thailand v elsewhere makes this an illogical act, theres nothing the buyer can do, to know that the bike and book are a true match, you could have killed one bike and subbed another. when you look at bike bike pricing theres often >500k margin between overseas prices and local prices, if you write a bike off its pretty easy to bring another in on its plate, and the process is all the same as above.

It's NOT a matter of trust. The gentleman who bought my bike is not, to my knowledge, even a member of ThaiVisa. The sale was not complete and no money changed hands until AFTER the book and the bike were inspected by the DMV in Chiang Mai and everything was shown to be perfectly legit. So yes, when he paid for the bike he DID know without any doubt that the bike and the book are in order and perfectly legal.

It sounds like you bought and paid for your CBR and TRUSTED that everything was on the up and up, and then you learned otherwise with you took it to the Phuket DMV to transfer the ownership. That's the risk you take buying older used bikes in Thailand. CAVEAT EMPTOR! I think you probably knew the risks going in, but I'm still surprised that you didn't get the bike and book looked at BEFORE the sale... (I apologize in advance if I've misunderstood how the deal went down and I'm sure you'll clarify any errors in my assumptions)

Happy Trails!

Tony

[LivinLOS]

It's NOT a matter of trust. The gentleman who bought my bike is not, to my knowledge, even a member of ThaiVisa. The sale was not complete and no money changed hands until AFTER the book and the bike were inspected by the DMV in Chiang Mai and everything was shown to be perfectly legit. So yes, when he paid for the bike he DID know without any doubt that the bike and the book are in order and perfectly legal.

DMV inspection does not mean the book is legal tho !! Even once they put it in your name is doesnt mean that it cant come back to haunt you later. Recycled books will pass a DMV inspection if done right.

I know people who have recycled books on bikes and the bike has had 2 or 3 ownership changes since then (all new owners were mates and new what it was). Doesnt make it not a recycled book !! Doesnt mean its in the clear.

I know the DMV has allowed bikes to change name when the book was listing a model that is different to the bike.. Old Honda XT books used on a newer XR.. Heard of a 400 regged on 250 books.. Sloppy ones that really put you in danger of problems, yet the DMV changed the ownership from one person to another which you claim means its on the 'up and up' ??

Basically just because it passes the DMV now doesnt mean the bikes history is clean !!

I can show you a bike and book, that I know 100% to be a recycled book, yet I would bet 500k baht it will happily change name, (even here on phuket !) as the bike make, model, and age are all exactly right, the numbers have been stamped and reground perfectly and the bike has changed hands twice since that happened. Quite simply there is no way to tell the bike is not the bike on the book short of forensic X rays. So its ALWAYS a guess, same as the guy who bought your bike might be happy, but he cant truly know, as the DMV pass does not mean its not happened.

It sounds like you bought and paid for your CBR and TRUSTED that everything was on the up and up, and then you learned otherwise with you took it to the Phuket DMV to transfer the ownership. That's the risk you take buying older used bikes in Thailand. CAVEAT EMPTOR! I think you probably knew the risks going in, but I'm still surprised that you didn't get the bike and book looked at BEFORE the sale... (I apologize in advance if I've misunderstood how the deal went down and I'm sure you'll clarify any errors in my assumptions)

And you have miss understood the CBR.. That bike was actually involved in the customs bikes grab recently and was let out without any fine (incredible as they were ransoming back bikes with what people believed were straight books and asking for money under a clause that only applied to bikes under 11 years old to older ones.. Just being scammers basically).. So the CBR has a clean bill of health as far as it is possible to tell but thats still not really sure. One aspect that gives a little confidence is the origional import papers and its UK source are there and it has MPH dials and things, but its never 100% sure.

[LivinLOS]

Ohh and the reason they are called recycled books instead of forged books is that forged books are a different class of scam. Those are printed up literally forgeries and so are not 'in the computer' system like a recycled book is.. When you want to do a name change you can give the book back to the printer who puts the new name and address info in the book, so it can be in your name, but if they ever run it through the DMV machine it comes up blank.

These 'forged books' are lots cheaper then recycled books.

[Kerryd]

I also wasnt aware that powerstation was a legit harley authorised dealer..

I cut this from Power Station's website:

Power Station Motorsport was established in 1999 to address the service needs of Harley-Davidson Motorcycle Riders and riders other Big Bikes. As our business grew we started to focus on Harleys.

As some of our team had experience in Harley-Davidson dealerships in Thialand and other countries, we were appointed an authorized Harley-Davidson Service Dealer in 2005 including; Parts and Accessories and MotorClothes.

In 2006 we applied for an Import License with Thai Industrial Standards Intitute (TISI) and tested the New Harley-Davidson Motorcycles wht the Thai Automotive Intitute (TAI).

In November 2006 we were appointed a Full-Line Dealer by HDMC and now import fully assembled Harley-Davidson Motorcycles. We look forward to providing you with professional and courtise service.

Would be nice if their website actually showed bikes they had in stock, instead of directing you to the main HD website to look at the latest models.

[dynabob]

Wheres there a legit Harley Davidson main dealer ?? Not grey importer ?? I wasnt aware of one.

HARLEY-DAVIDSON of BANGKOK, Thailand Authorized Harley-Davidson service, parts, and accessories center in Thailand.

Triumph has only been here a year or two..

That's odd- didn't they just throw a 5 year anniversary bash at the Chiang Mai Bike Week?

TRIUMPH had a great stand at udon bike week,bikes looked stunning with a return of two tone paint job also the concealment of fuel injection in the old style carb houseing to maintain old style best of british look is pure genius,add to this their prices =best value in thailand.

[jrbkk64]

Barcelona BKK will move from Rama ix to somewhere on Vibhavadee Rangsit road at the end of Feb/early March 2009.