'Ruling out the foreigner'

[keestha]

This thread would be much more interesting and less time consuming to read if those posting would just come with facts, or briefly state an opinion and arguments supporting that opinion.

The same things being repeated over and over again, people being carried away by their emotions, and even more so posters fighting and occasionally even insulting each other don’t make for captivating reading.

[fester]

This tree is not beeing shorter beacuse you are discussing off topics in here. The topic here is:

"Ruling out the foreigner".

Please revert to the topic or open a new topic. Thanks.

/Admin

[DaveYo]

Gentlemen, gentlemen, LETS ALL UNITE!!   I just read these posts and it is way way out of hand here.

We need to find SOLUTIONS, from the NEW RULES AND REGULATIONS that has been implemented from the Thai Government.   NOT THE BARB TRADING GOING ON!

So lets figure out what can a farang, or foreigner do to survive here in the wonderful country of Thailand.  Yes some do make enough to not worry, and others just simply cannot raise up that dough without going bust.  

Many of us are married, have families in Thailand.  For me I married because I love my wife.  The same applies to most others.  Maybe some of them did get married to escape the higher financial requirements.  Maybe some of these people truly want to escape the rat race and not partake in its insanity.  So going to Thailand could be a reason.  Who knows.

But this is besides the POINT!  UNDERSTAND.

The point here is we need to merge our minds together and find a way to have a good solution for those living in Thailand. Example--  What about those who are retired.  My goodness, they have to be having heart attacks with the way the regulation is going.  So what is a solution for them?  What about us, ----- yes US, what is our solution and how can we find the way to not only meet the financial needs now but what about the new rules soon to come in 2004?   What do we do then?

So lets stop playing High School here.  We are grown ups and we have indeed some serious things to think about that has been now brought upon us from the Thai government and such will and now is indeed affecting our lives and also our futures.

:blues:

 

???  

[DaveYo]

sad little wind up merchants like mrentoul he obviously has nothing better to do.

Well, I don't agree with that, needless to say.

I'm not into name-calling. However, there's a few things I could say about ''non-complaints'' which wouldn't please you either. I assume you're one?

B40,000 a month is not much. The government's advice to you menfolk married to Thais is to get a job or leave. Surely between the two of you you could scratch together enough.

As I've said before, no one gets de-facto residency for free (though in Thailand many westerners have, in fact, enjoyed de facto residency for years). That's about to change.

Why should Thailand end up with the dregs, just because it's cheap to live here?

It's been too easy to get into this country and stay here on next to nothing for too long. That's the way the government sees it, though it's not because westerners are inherently undesirable, but because terrorists and other undesirables can live here for years undetected unless they are subject to regular border and income checks.

If I was the government, faced with the terrorist threat it faces, I wouldn't hesitate to pull up the drawbridge, and get rid of corrupt checkpoint immigration staff at the same time.

Wouldn't you rather be safe here with your families than exposed to constant risk from the Hambalis of this world?

It's a shame if the net has to catch everyone. I imagine a 60 year-old retired guy who has lived here does not pose much of a threat, same with the water-lilly grower above.

The tougher the rules get, the more people are inclined to break them. That's the government's dilemma, but it also creates opportunities for westerners who have lived here for years on the sly anyway.

B40,000 a month is not much. The government's advice to you menfolk married to Thais is to get a job or leave. Surely between the two of you you could scratch together enough

Mrentoul, on your quote here, yes we are married, and at same time we are limited on what we can do in Thailand as of getting work.  Secondly, sure both me and my wife can work and make our income, but honestly, what the immigrations is looking for I do believe that I show that I made the 40K a month not the combined income from husband and wife.

Now am I correct in this assessment?

So if you say get a job in Thailand, please enlighten me and tell me what jobs are available in Thailand for a foreigner to be able to meet the 40K baht a month requirement.  I would appreciate it.

:blues ???

[beleby]

I'm amazed that nobody has pointed out that the most obvious facts yet:

a) The only language the Thai authorities understand is MONEY

The language of money = ENGLISH

C) The new rules throw out eager, dedicated English teachers like me. Supposedly poorer countries with growing tourism such as Vietnam become our homes.

d) The Thai authorities realise their mistake. The rules change.

Surely I am not the only one thinking this?

Greg

[KenUdon]

d) The Thai authorities realise their mistake. The rules change

Greg :-It will be too late then. It will be a question of "face" and the Thais are not known for admitting their mistakes.

[ChiangMaiThai]

Getting off your lazy idealism may, but it's going to take time and effort.

Your anger is really a reflection of your fears and your fears are a product of the lot in life that you createdI certainly had nothing to do with it.

 

Lazy idealism??? Living comfortably with your Thai family in the country on 15k or 20k (baht) a month is lazy idealism? Why do people who have found happiness in such lives bother you so much? Why do you have no tolerance for people who pursue lifestyles different from your own? You've worked hard and made money. Great!

I think the point of many posters here is not that there should be absolutley no financial requirement, rather it is that 40k is not based on thai standards at all.

[ChiangMaiThai]

Getting off your lazy idealism may, but it's going to take time and effort.

Your anger is really a reflection of your fears and your fears are a product of the lot in life that you createdI certainly had nothing to do with it.

Lazy idealism??? Living comfortably with your Thai family in the country on 15k or 20k (baht) a month is lazy idealism? Why do people who have found happiness in such lives bother you so much? Why do you have no tolerance for people who pursue lifestyles different from your own? You've worked hard and made money. Great! Now can you even begin to fathom that there are good people out there who have not had the same aspirations in life as you or have not been as lucky as you in financial areas? Furthermore, can you even comprehend that many of these farangs are still good, responsible people who only wish to live simply with their families? it appears you can not.

I think the point of many posters here is not that there should be absolutley no financial requirement, rather it is that 40k is not based on thai standards at all.

[ChiangMaiThai]

zzz

[mrvietnam2001]

ChiangMaiThai The point is that you have no standing. And that  point galls you.

I can appreciate that. But you know what? Who cares?

You would rather whine and complain rather than get motivated and do something. Like most people have to.

Then you feel this need to take shots, because of your fears and insecurities rather than seek solutions. You certainly did to me.

You're called on it and so now you punt with more idealism.

That's not going to work and the sooner you get off your butt and show what you're REALLY willing to do to secure that place in life, the more enlightened you may find yourself to be.

Well higher powers are now making the decision for you now. The freedom you thought you could have, doing a minimal amount of effort, isn't there after all and it hurts. And you're angry and afraid.

When the going get's tough the tough get going. Stop snivelling and get going.

If you don't think you can learn something from people who produce, and who work #### hard to do so AND try to make suggestions to help based on experince, then don't expect kindness when you very ignorantly insult people. It's can be a hard life. Better get a helmet is the best case reply you'll get after that..

I wish y'all the best, but really, nobody cares if you don't.

Mr Vietnam  

[pnustedt]

The topic here is:

"Ruling out the foreigner".

It appears that if you do not have 400K or a monthly income of 40K baht you will not be permitted to stay in Thailand from next year.

If you fall into this category you have a problem but there is no point in "shooting the messenger" and others who don't sound sympathetic.

One of the facts of life is that the less money you have the less influence you have (unless there's a Gandhi out there). If you feel that you have any influence at all you should address it to the politicians and the people of Thailand who will decide your future.

[mrvietnam2001]

Bingo

Mr Vietnam  

[DaveYo]

Mr.Vietnam and pnustedt, I just read your comments.  Correct, for now it appears that we need to comply with 40K and or 400K in bank.  

4 Questions I pose to both of you.  Lets hear your answer

What happens now to those who cannot muster the 40K a month on Thai wages?  

What happens to next year if they increase this to 65K a month requirement?  (and boost this to 800K) in bank

What happens if we cannot sustain that requirement?  

Understand the danger here.   Soon Financially it will become impossible, and we will be forced to have to dig in our outside sources depleting our nest eggs for their satisfaction.

So what kind of jobs in Thailand is worthy to sustain for a foreigner to earn????

:blues: ????

[plachon]

ChiangMaiThai The point is that you have no standing. And that  point galls you.

I can appreciate that. But you know what? Who cares?

You would rather whine and complain rather than get motivated and do something. Like most people have to.

Then you feel this need to take shots, because of your fears and insecurities rather than seek solutions. You certainly did to me.

You're called on it and so now you punt with more idealism.

That's not going to work and the sooner you get off your butt and show what you're REALLY willing to do to secure that place in life, the more enlightened you may find yourself to be.

Well higher powers are now making the decision for you now. The freedom you thought you could have, doing a minimal amount of effort, isn't there after all and it hurts. And you're angry and afraid.

When the going get's tough the tough get going. Stop snivelling and get going.

If you don't think you can learn something from people who produce, and who work #### hard to do so AND try to make suggestions to help based on experince, then don't expect kindness when you very ignorantly insult people. It's can be a hard life. Better get a helmet is the best case reply you'll get after that..

I wish y'all the best, but really, nobody cares if you don't.

Mr Vietnam  

You are the most arrogant, conceited, self-satisfied jerk, I've ever had the fortune not to meet. No wonder your country is in the mess it's in, deluding itself that everyone loves it really, and really is only jealous of it's money and success (both monumental illusions, as is being proved in Iraq and elsewere around the world). It's called the Tigger syndrome.  It's you who are afraid and insecure pal.

[Artisi]

Gentlemen, gentlemen, LETS ALL UNITE!!   I just read these posts and it is way way out of hand here.

We need to find SOLUTIONS, from the NEW RULES AND REGULATIONS that has been implemented from the Thai Government.   NOT THE BARB TRADING GOING ON!

So lets figure out what can a farang, or foreigner do to survive here in the wonderful country of Thailand.  Yes some do make enough to not worry, and others just simply cannot raise up that dough without going bust.  

Many of us are married, have families in Thailand.  For me I married because I love my wife.  The same applies to most others.  Maybe some of them did get married to escape the higher financial requirements.  

I must agree with DaveYo here, I for one, in early posts made a couple of tongue in cheek caustic comments which like a lot of others replying to this matter was a knee jerk reaction to what could be a major problem.

It is however now time for us to collectively make some constructive and coherent criticism channelled in the right direction which highlights the concerns that we have. Our effort would be better served by writting directly to those in authority who are likely to make and or support the new thoughts as well as those who might be against such radical changes.

So "thaivisa.com" - how about some assistance here with the names, addresses, emails or other contact details for those in authority who are involved / interested / against the new proposals so that we can forward our concerns in an ordered and logical manner.

To those of you making and stirring up trouble and fighting amongst yourselves  - STAY OUT OF IT - your comments are irrelevant, unproductive and are not wanted.

[mrvietnam2001]

You should be "starting to dig" now if you haven't already done so.

Cmon man, I mean really. Start a business. Take a shot.

Or go back to the world you know, or need to learn about, get on the rowing machine and save. Then get back trucking if that's the goal. But next time,. make every effort to cover your ass.

Nobody else will if you don't.

I got taken down for over 200K and I'm not talking about Baht here while in Vietnam ( no it wasn't the Vietnamese it was the Americans) Not only was I not watching my back, but 9/11 happened and there were other circumstances. What a lesson let me tell ya. Ouch!

This crap is to be expected and if you don't plan for it, then it's nobody elses fault when you're nailed with your pants down.

So you move on. It's a learing experience. I can be glib about it cause I've been thru it.

Rgrds

Mr Vietnam

[mrvietnam2001]

ChiangMaiThai The point is that you have no standing. And that  point galls you.

I can appreciate that. But you know what? Who cares?

You would rather whine and complain rather than get motivated and do something. Like most people have to.

Then you feel this need to take shots, because of your fears and insecurities rather than seek solutions. You certainly did to me.

You're called on it and so now you punt with more idealism.

That's not going to work and the sooner you get off your butt and show what you're REALLY willing to do to secure that place in life, the more enlightened you may find yourself to be.

Well higher powers are now making the decision for you now. The freedom you thought you could have, doing a minimal amount of effort, isn't there after all and it hurts. And you're angry and afraid.

When the going get's tough the tough get going. Stop snivelling and get going.

If you don't think you can learn something from people who produce, and who work #### hard to do so AND try to make suggestions to help based on experince, then don't expect kindness when you very ignorantly insult people. It's can be a hard life. Better get a helmet is the best case reply you'll get after that..

I wish y'all the best, but really, nobody cares if you don't.

Mr Vietnam  

You are the most arrogant, conceited, self-satisfied jerk, I've ever had the fortune not to meet. No wonder your country is in the mess it's in, deluding itself that everyone loves it really, and really is only jealous of it's money and success (both monumental illusions, as is being proved in Iraq and elsewere around the world). It's called the Tigger syndrome.  It's you who are afraid and insecure pal.

Noted and thanks for the laugh.

Want a job now? You're not making any brownie points and as far as my country is concerned, it'll cost you a heck of a lot more than 500 bucks a month. Try a day.

If you ever get to that level then you'll actually have standing. Till then, hahahahahahaha.

Mr Vietnam  

[pnustedt]

What happens

Obviously, if you don't qualify for a visa you will not be issued one and you will not be permitted to stay.

I expect you would be unable to find a suitable job in Thailand so you would need to find the resources to qualify for a visa from outside Thailand.

[DaveYo]

Mr. Pnustedt, I know that if you don't have it you cannot get the visa to stay longer.  

Maybe you misunderstood my questions as I wrote it since I wanted it to be brief.

My point is once you reach the saturation of income to prove to authorities, what can we do?  I am not talking of being forced to leave, I am talking of wanting to stay because say we have investments such as home, or property with our families there, and we hate to have to pull out because we simply cannot meet the requirements per se as given.

Yes we try to get jobs, and of course for now I meet the criteria, but it is too close for my comfort to at least having some financial safety valve in case of increases in the future.  

What I asked OK, yes start a business, but at same token it is not that easy, besides trying to skirt around the hefty requirements per se as given.

What jobs can a foreigner do besides just starting a business can they do as earning money to create their buffer zones or meet the requirements as given that is allowed by Thai Law. ???  :blues:

[pschef]

My last comment on this subject, its seems the requirement will be either or not both. we can still use our multiple entry at the moment.

For the inhumane and heartless. com  I have always worked for my living 10 years in Saudi, more recently 2 years in Angola, 1 year in Thailand with a blue book and now starting a small business. I put many years of work into my home, I have a family to support. Should I be discriminated against because I choose to Marry a Thai and settle in Thailand? I think not. I would suggest it is a basic human right, I think many others agree. thanks and goodbye :cool:

[foolwholaughsatdeath]

Could someone clarify this situation as it would affect me?

I do seasonal work in my homeland 4 months every year, then return to thailand to enjoy my other 8 months.  I have been doing this for the last few years.  I have never put money in a Thai Bank, I just withdraw from my account from home using ATM's as required.  I also have a Thai girlfriend and a child with her.  I don't believe I could find a job here that would pay 40,000 baht a month, but I spend well over that each month from what I save during my 4 months of work. So in order to comply with these new regulations, could I just show my bank records from home, showing that I have more than enough cash to be here at an income level acceptable toi the Thai government, or would I need to plop down 400k in a Thai bank and let it sit to stay.   As for all the retiree rules, I don't think they would apply to me as I'm still in my 20's.

[pnustedt]

Dave

I thought that I understood the questions first time around. Not so clear now tho'!

I think the answer is the same - if you do not satisfy the requirements of the authorities you will not be permitted to stay - and they make/change the rules as suits them! That's the way it is.

[beleby]

I still think we should look at the bigger picture. When standards of English speaking (and consequently, the money in the Thai coffers) goes down, the Thai big wigs will be begging English teachers back.

One person said this wont happen because they don't want to "lose face" . I say - never underestimate the pulling power of money, especially to the Thai authorities.

[Khun Larry]

Hahahaha that's a laugh. Someone who doesn't want to be productive enough to earn ( on his own) a thousand bucks a month is going to accuse the Thai Government of creating unnecessary stress for people?

Wrong. That's "your" commitment or should be.

Nobody's asking anyone to pee in the tall weeds with the big dogs.

They're only going to "require" you to show a minimal amount in order to show your credibility as a productive human. And those numbers are very small in comparison to the western world.

The guy ripping my house apart right now doing renovations is from England. He had to come up with over $100,000.00 in order to get a green card here. Bought a US small business for 100 grand and is now a millionaire here. I can mention quite a few Brits who have done this.

On the other hand I can also mention another Brit whose come here with nothing but earrings in his nose and is ripping off people on web development. Will probably be looking for a cheaper country to apply his trade real soon when he's deported.

The complaintents are searching for  Nirvava in which to continue with lazy and unproductive lives. Countried that are making real efforts at "advancing" themselves don't need or want you. It's as simple as that and if the truth hurts then too bad.

We won our "negotiation" in California because we ARE productive and we DO offer a lot. But we didn't whine. We just "walked". You should do the same and if they decide to change things to your liking then you'll find you were right. And if not then you'll find you were wrong.

Good idea to get a job in the meantime.

Mr Vietnam  

A few comments on the above post:

1. Yes, $1000 / month is quite small in the US, it also buys little. In NY last week I was charged $13.50 for a side plate of fried rice at a Thai restaurant.

2. The example who became a millionaire, although not uncommon in the US, is the exceptional person and already posessed $100,000. Extrapolation of this single data point to the general population lacks scientific basis.

3. The opportunities mentiond, buy a business, become a millionaire are not realistic in Thailand.

4. The example $100,000 for a green card falls short. The average Thai makes 4 - 6000 / month and likely has very little savings. These new asset/income 400k/40k requirements are ten times what many Thai's make. It would be like the US requiring foreigners to make $30,000 - 40,000 a month and have $300 - 400,000 in the bank or be kicked out of the country even if you are married to a US citizen.

5. I am not sure what jobs in Isan pay $1000 / mo, if any.

Many of these farangs are retired and have have their family here. They are already married to Thai citizens, many with children. It makes one wonder what the Thai Government is thinking, if anything. Do they think the children will be better off when they kick out their father? I suppose they do.

Chookdee Krup

K Larry

[Roger13]

How can we become a burden? We won't be lining up for unemployment benefits or sitting on the steps at MBK asking passers by for 5 baht.

But I have seen a Foreigner "begging"

on Ramkamhaeng - opposite the University.

He was playing a Guitar ... and had a notice

- if you would like English Lessons - stop for a chat.

(I see the posts are already up to page 31

and I have only reached page 26 where the

above quote appears - just in case there

are already some posts on this ...)

[TizMe]

B40,000 a month is not much

It is still approx 10 time the average wage of a policeman in Thailand. So relatively it "is much".

I have read all the contributions to this forum over the last few days. The thing that strikes me as most outstanding is the attitude of some of the expats here.

They obviously will not be affected by the new ruling, and have the attitude of  "F... the rest of you, I'm all right"

I thought that the idea of these types of expat forums was to help, offer advice and support each other, not to prove that I've got enough in the bank not to have to worry.

[MaiChai]

I have said this many times before. We foreigners living in Thailand have very few legal rights, part of this is due to not recognising marriage or being the parent of a local as a route to some form of residence or citizenship. Most other countries in the world allow you to marry a local, and then progressivly work towards residence or citizenship. Residence or citizenship is earned through making a commitment to the country, spending time in the country, paying local tax, allegence to the royal family, etc, etc. This is part of the process of the foreigner being integrated into society. Thailand does not recognise this for foreign men, or should I say its almost impossible to attain!

The second point is we have no body or representation. There is no way for us to campaign for better rights, or to seek dedress when something such as a law is introduced, that works against us. Most of us foreigners are here as individuals and don't seem to want to band together. Maybe we fear that we will be deported as trouble makers, and want to keep our heads down.

This seems to be the two major problem points to me. Comments and thoughts welcome. And I don't think a fair answer is "Its their country and they can do as they wish...".

[Edward B]

B40,000 a month is not much

It is still approx 10 time the average wage of a policeman in Thailand. So relatively it "is much".

Foreigners can't be policemen in Thailand so you can't compare. I don't think 40K baht is much for a foreigner. Neither is 400K baht in the bank.

They obviously will not be affected by the new ruling, and have the attitude of  "F... the rest of you, I'm all right"

I don't think that was the initial attitude of those expats you are talking about. I think they simply offered their own opinions/advice and some expats took it the wrong way and then it just excalated into a bitch fight.

Ideally it would be good if these NEW rules only applied to NEW foreigners coming to Thailand, and not those already here who have made life-long committments based on the laws in place at the time. But hey, interest rates go up all the time and we just sit back and cop it sweet don't we? If we don't like the new interest rate we can change banks. If we don't like the new laws...

[pnustedt]

And I don't think a fair answer is "Its their country and they can do as they wish...".

Sorry to break the news but it's not a "fair" world!

[Dasekel]

1 day later and I will try to reply to the comments of mrentol and Mr. Viet Nam on page 28.

But first of all: What's your problem that you always have t6o be so zynical towars others that you do not even know?

Quote  

Some may argue that the family need not break up if the Thai member(s) of the family join the foreign member(s) back to his/her/their homecountry. Maybe, but this would mean that Thailand is expelling Thai Nationals from their own homeland because they made the mistake to have a foreign family member.

Please take this opportunity to make your case. How will families be forced to split up? Remember that I have access to the same article and will be watching closely which arguments you cite to back your argument.

You did not understand why families might be broken up? What will happen to those who will not meet the requirements or might not be to the liking of the immigration officer who becomes even more powerfull? They will have to leave, right? And what is the wife or whoever the Thai family member may be suppossed to do? Leave together? That's what I call expelling Thai Nationals from their own country if they want to stay with their family. How do you call it?

As you are reading the very same article:

Q: “Surely there is a risk that if some of these measures

become law then many families will be broken up?”

A: “If there are special circumstances, such as the foreigner cannot comply and the Thai national cannot return to the foreigner’s own country with them, they can supply evidence to be considered.”

".... and the Thai national cannot return to the foreigner's own country..."

That's gives real hope, doesn't it?

Quote  

The laws in the western world to keep immigrants out are far worse than those in Thailand. Try to immigrate to the US or Europe and see what you will get.

Mr Vietnam is right. You guys thought you'd stumbled on a place where western-style immigration curbs (such as they are - they still seem pretty weak to me) don't apply. You were wrong.

Don't know whether this refers to my posting? It doesn't apply anyway, I did not think "I  would stumble on..... "

Will continue later