Applying For Thai Citizenship

[Arkady]

Being very expat focused like most of us, I overlooked the fact that being Thai by virtue of being born in Thailand to two alien parents with permanent residence is not yet so very rare today. It is one of the ways that hill tribe people get citizenship. I believe the current government approach is to classify hill tribes people something like this: those believed to have arrived before 1972 are theoretically entitled to citizenship; those believed to have arrived between 1972 and 1993 are theoretically entitled to permanent residence; and those believed to have arrived after 1993 are entitled to neither. Thus there are quite a few in the 1972-93 category who have successfully acquired permanent residence and passed on Thai nationality to their children, although there is of course much difficulty in establishing these entitlements. However, the provisions relating to dual nationals obviously don't apply to these citizens as their fathers are stateless but their nationalities can still be revoked under Section 19.

While there doesn't seem any official desire currently to try to revoke the nationalities of naturalized expat businessmen for keeping their old passports in their back pockets, after they have spent years vetting them, I think the authorities will want to keep their various options to revoke nationality open for generations to come on grounds of "national security". Probably the large number of Chinese Thais who were either naturalized or Thai through birth on Thai soil served to justify this attitude in days gone by, while the hill tribes people serve to justify it in their minds today.

[dbrenn]

Being very expat focused like most of us ...

While there doesn't seem any official desire currently to try to revoke the nationalities of naturalized expat businessmen for keeping their old passports in their back pockets, after they have spent years vetting them, I think the authorities will want to keep their various options to revoke nationality open for generations to come on grounds of "national security". Probably the large number of Chinese Thais who were either naturalized or Thai through birth on Thai soil served to justify this attitude in days gone by, while the hill tribes people serve to justify it in their minds today.

I think you are right - the ambiguity in the rules is in case of national security issues that could conceivably be presented by large ethnic groups claiming irrevocable Thai citizenship. The handful of expat businessmen don't really fall into this category.

[tombkk]

I will be applying for PR soon. Eventually, if it makes sense, for TC aswell.

Could anyone tell me if there are any major 'western' countires that do not allow dual citizenship for people not living in their home country?

I know that the UK and Australia allows dual nationality. Not sure about the others though - you should check

Germany, does not alloy dual nationally, most of the rest of the world does.

I'm not quite sure why you say that. I know several people who (legally) have the German and another nationality.

[Mario2008]

Off topic post deleted. This thread is about Thai nationality only.

[samran]

By the way do you know where to find the Revolutionary Decree 337 of 1972 referred to above? I believe this is the amendment to the Act that limited the right of citizenship by birth to children born to alien parents who are permanent residents and caused the horrendous problems for the children born in Thailand to Thai women married to foreigners through Section 7 bis. I can’t find it on the Council of State’s website. 1972 was a good year for xenophobic laws that have had lasting effects in Thailand. Thanom also brought in Revolutionary Decree 281 in that year, better known as the first Alien Business Act.

Arkady,

Apologies for the brief response....on the road at the moment.

Check out a previous post I put together. May be a starting place...

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Thai-t241200...23#entry2517523

Cheers!

Edited March 2, 2009 by samran

[Arkady]

I Just had a look at the Special Branch's website to see if there was anything new since I last looked in 2007 and found they have updated the section on applying for citizenship with more detailed information. What was particularly interesting is that they publish details of exactly how they allocate the points out of 100 of which you have to get at least 50 to be considered. I have never seen this before but maybe it has available for a long time. I think the thorny and often asked question of whether it is possible to apply with less than 5 years' PR may be answered there. It seems that PR is required for men but, if you have had it for less than 5 years you just get less points as long as you have other evidence of 5 years' residence. The catch might be that they don't specify what alternative evidence of the 5 years' residence is acceptable. Some might lose points in this but pick up more points by applying before their 50th birthday which knocks you down 5 points compared to a 49 year old! This might be a more important consideration now that it seems to be taking over two years to approve PR. Check it out here http://www.sb.police.go.th/upload/pb/2009021600010001.pdf .

Edited March 3, 2009 by Arkady

[dbrenn]

I Just had a look at the Special Branch's website to see if there was anything new since I last looked in 2007 and found they have updated the section on applying for citizenship with more detailed information. What was particularly interesting is that they publish details of exactly how they allocate the points out of 100 of which you have to get at least 50 to be considered. I have never seen this before but maybe it has available for a long time. I think the thorny and often asked question of whether it is possible to apply with less than 5 years' PR may be answered there. It seems that PR is required for men but, if you have had it for less than 5 years you just get less points as long as you have other evidence of 5 years' residence. The catch might be that they don't specify what alternative evidence of the 5 years' residence is acceptable. Some might lose points in this but pick up more points by applying before their 50th birthday which knocks you down 5 points compared to a 49 year old! This might be a more important consideration now that it seems to be taking over two years to approve PR. Check it out here http://www.sb.police.go.th/upload/pb/2009021600010001.pdf .

Nice find Arkady. For the benefit of those having trouble reading it, the points are calculated thus:

Age - 15 points

Education - 10 points

Income - 10 points

Tax payments - 25 points

Domicile (the word ภูมิลำเนา is used), with the rather ambiguous meaning of ‘domicile birth’ or ‘assumed domicile’ - 10 points

Relationship with Thailand and its people - 10 points

Knowledge of Thai language – 10 points

Personality or character, attitude, speech – 10 points (in an old version, the personality points were only applied to Vietnamese applicants. Now it seems that they apply to everyone)

[dbrenn]

Reading on in this highly interesting document that Arkady found, there is more detail on how they assess points:

Age:

20 t0 30 - 2 points

30 to 40 – 8 points

40 to 50 – 15 points

50 to 60 – 10 points

Over 60 – 8 points

Education:

Mor 6 and above – 3 points

Diploma – 4 points

Degree – 6 points

Masters Degree – 8 points

PhD – 10 points

Income (monthly):

80,000 to 90,000 – 5 points

90,000 to 100,000 – 8 points

Over 100,000 – 10 points

OR

Income (monthly) in the case of marriage to a Thai national, or having children born in Thailand, or having graduated finished from high school in Thailand:

30,000 to 40,000 – 5 points

40,000 to 50,000 – 8 points

Over 50,000 – 10 points

Annual Personal Income Tax payments:

From 70,000 to 100,000 – 7 points

From 100,000 to 120,000 – 14 points

From 120,000 to 150,000 – 20 points

Over 150,000 – 25 points

OR

Annual Personal Income Tax Payments (monthly) in the case of marriage to a Thai national, or having children born in Thailand, or having graduated finished from high school in Thailand:

From 2,000 to 10,000 – 7 points

From 10,000 to 25,000 – 14 points

From 25,000 to 35,000 – 20 points

Over 35,000 – 25 points

Domicile:

Has official evidence showing domicile in Thailand for at least five years but no certificate of residence or alien registration certificate – 3 points

Has official evidence showing domicile in Thailand for at least five years and has certificate of residence or alien registration certificate for at least 5 years – 5 points

Has official evidence showing domicile in Thailand for at least five years and has certificate of residence or alien registration certificate for at least 7 years – 7 points

Has official evidence showing domicile in Thailand for at least five years and has certificate of residence or alien registration certificate for at least 10 years – 10 points

Relationship with Thailand and its people

Works in Thailand – 5 points

Married to a Thai national – 8 points

Married to a Thai national, with children born in Thailand – 10 points

Knowledge of Thai Language:

Able to speak and understand spoken Thai – 5 points

Able to speak and understand spoken Thai , and sing the National Anthem and Phra Buramee– 5 points

Personality or character, attitude, speech: 10 points given for overall personality, how much they like you and how much they think that you are a respectable person who will fit in

I went through the whole process withour knowing how they were assessing me. I would have benefitted from this info but it was not around at the time.

Edited March 4, 2009 by dbrenn

[dbrenn]

And yes, Arkady, it does seem on the face of it that less than 5 years PR is acceptable:

"Has official evidence showing domicile in Thailand for at least five years but no certificate of residence or alien registration certificate – 3 points"

However, this clause is misleading as it states that official evidence other than a certificate of residence or alien registration certificate is acceptable, when in fact you must show the latter or they will not accept your application. The other three clauses in the domicile requirment state:

"Has official evidence showing domicile in Thailand for at least five years and has certificate of residence or alien registration certificate for at least 5 years – 5 points; Has official evidence showing domicile in Thailand for at least five years and has certificate of residence or alien registration certificate for at least 7 years – 7 points; Has official evidence showing domicile in Thailand for at least five years and has certificate of residence or alien registration certificate for at least 10 years – 10 points"

The way the rules are applied at the moment, I can't therefore see a way to qualify with less than 5 years residence, as they insist on a certificate of residence and alien registration certificate, forcing applicants onto clauses 2,3 and 4 of this section (the 5,7, and 10 year residency requirement, together with certificate of residence and alien registration certificate).

Interesting point - and may be the reason why this 5 year requirement seems to have come and gone over the years. When I first inquired about Thai citizenship in 1998 they weren't enforcing it, then they were, then they weren't and I gather that they are at the moment.

As is usual in Thailand, the laws are ambiguous and the officials themselves often don't understand the rules.

Edited March 4, 2009 by dbrenn

[dbrenn]

Made a couple of errors on my previous post ... should be:

Age:

20 t0 30 - 2 points

30 to 40 – 8 points

40 to 50 – 15 points

50 to 60 – 10 points

Over 60 – 8 points

Education:

Mor 6 and above – 3 points

Diploma – 4 points

Degree – 6 points

Masters Degree – 8 points

PhD – 10 points

Income (monthly):

80,000 to 90,000 – 5 points

90,000 to 100,000 – 8 points

Over 100,000 – 10 points

OR

Income (monthly) in the case of marriage to a Thai national, or having children born in Thailand, or having graduated from high school in Thailand:

30,000 to 40,000 – 5 points

40,000 to 50,000 – 8 points

Over 50,000 – 10 points

Annual Personal Income Tax payments:

From 70,000 to 100,000 – 7 points

From 100,000 to 120,000 – 14 points

From 120,000 to 150,000 – 20 points

Over 150,000 – 25 points

OR

Annual Personal Income Tax Payments (monthly) in the case of marriage to a Thai national, or having children born in Thailand, or having graduated from high school in Thailand:

From 2,000 to 10,000 – 7 points

From 10,000 to 25,000 – 14 points

From 25,000 to 35,000 – 20 points

Over 35,000 – 25 points

Domicile:

Has official evidence showing domicile in Thailand for at least 5 years and no certificate of residence or alien registration certificate – 3 points

Has official evidence showing domicile in Thailand and has certificate of residence or alien registration certificate for at least 5 years – 5 points

Has official evidence showing domicile in Thailand and has certificate of residence or alien registration certificate for at least 7 years – 7 points

Has official evidence showing domicile in Thailand and has certificate of residence or alien registration certificate for at least 10 years – 10 points

Relationship with Thailand and its people

Works in Thailand – 5 points

Married to a Thai national – 8 points

Married to a Thai national, with children born in Thailand – 10 points

Knowledge of Thai Language:

Able to speak and understand spoken Thai – 5 points

Able to speak and understand spoken Thai , and sing the National Anthem and Phra Buramee– 10 points

Personality or character, attitude, speech: 10 points given (discretionary - various subjective parameters on how much they like you and how much they think that you are a respectable individual who will fit in)

My written Thai is a bit rusty, so corrections welcome

[Arkady]

And yes, Arkady, it does seem on the face of it that less than 5 years PR is acceptable:

"Has official evidence showing domicile in Thailand for at least five years but no certificate of residence or alien registration certificate – 3 points"

However, this clause is misleading as it states that official evidence other than a certificate of residence or alien registration certificate is acceptable, when in fact you must show the latter or they will not accept your application. The other three clauses in the domicile requirment state:

"Has official evidence showing domicile in Thailand for at least five years and has certificate of residence or alien registration certificate for at least 5 years – 5 points; Has official evidence showing domicile in Thailand for at least five years and has certificate of residence or alien registration certificate for at least 7 years – 7 points; Has official evidence showing domicile in Thailand for at least five years and has certificate of residence or alien registration certificate for at least 10 years – 10 points"

The way the rules are applied at the moment, I can't therefore see a way to qualify with less than 5 years residence, as they insist on a certificate of residence and alien registration certificate, forcing applicants onto clauses 2,3 and 4 of this section (the 5,7, and 10 year residency requirement, together with certificate of residence and alien registration certificate).

Interesting point - and may be the reason why this 5 year requirement seems to have come and gone over the years. When I first inquired about Thai citizenship in 1998 they weren't enforcing it, then they were, then they weren't and I gather that they are at the moment.

As is usual in Thailand, the laws are ambiguous and the officials themselves often don't understand the rules.

Good job on the translation Dbrenn. I am sure many will appreciate that. The points system must have been around internally for some years as an internal guideline and was referred to in passing in the old published guidelines and in a little bit more detail in the Phuket Gazetter article in 2004 but this seems to be the first time they have explained it in full detail. Good that they want to make at least one part of the process more transparent. I note that the external guidelines are more complete in other ways too. For example they start off by quoting the relevant sections of the Nationality Act, a logical step but it was never shown in the guidelines before. It makes sense for them to show in this way those requirements that are actually mandated by law e.g. the 5 year residence, having a profession, and knowledge of Thai. I haven't had a chance to go through all the guidelines in detail to see if there are any small changes. At a superficial read through they looked the same to me.

Re the 5 years question. I agree that it boils down to whether they have decided on any other evidence that is acceptable in place of PR documents. Examples could be a work permit combined with continuous non-imm B visas (as for PR) or a yellow tabian baan. On the other hand it might just be a tease, if they have not yet deemed any other evidence acceptable. Whatever, you will need to submit a residence certificate and alien book with the application, so this might short cut things a bit for PRs but certainly doesn't represent a bypass of the need for PR (for males). Some one should ask Special Branch directly if there is any alternative evidence for residence. For me it's not a priority as I have already maxed out on the points for holding the red and blue (now white) books.

I also noticed ภูมิลำเนา (phumi lamao) is used for domicile in the context of 5 years' required continuous residence. It may be a little ominous for naturalized Thais, who wish to spend a few years outside the Kingdom, that the same word is used to describe domicile in the context revoking citizenship from naturalized Thais who live outside Thaialnd for more than 5 years. On the other hand, this is probably not policed at all and visits back to Thailand may count as breaking the 5 years domicile abroad anyway, not to mention remaining on a tabian baan. Presumably the Thai passport is not intended to be used a passport of convenience in the way that so many thousands of Hong Kong Chinese have gone to Canada for just long enough to get their Canadian passorts and then go back to live in Hong Kong!

Edited March 4, 2009 by Arkady

[dbrenn]

... The points system must have been around internally for some years .... the 5 year residence ..... it boils down to whether they have decided on any other evidence that is acceptable in place of PR documents

I think the points system has been around internally for a while. When I applied the officials at the Special Branch often referred to points, but the system was not transparent and I was not privy to the criteria under which points were accrued. All I could do at the time was hope for the best. The checklist, however, had to be adhered to, and there was no way they would have accepted that I met the domicile criteria without 5 years PR. Nothing on the checklist provided for demostration of residence with only a work permit or any other documentattion. The certificate of residence and alien registration were mandatory - to the extent where I had to visit the Ampher and Immigration with letters from the Special Branch to have these documents verified. That's why I am rather suprised to see the clause that seemingly permits a claim to residence without the PR documents.

... Good that they want to make at least one part of the process more transparent.....

I agree. THe system was completely opaque, and this does represent progress.

I also noticed ภูมิลำเนา (phumi lamao) is used for domicile in the context of 5 years' required continuous residence. It may be a little ominous for naturalized Thais, who wish to spend a few years outside the Kingdom, that the same word is used to describe domicile in the context revoking citizenship from naturalized Thais who live outside Thaialnd for more than 5 years. On the other hand, this is probably not policed at all and visits back to Thailand may count as breaking the 5 years domicile abroad anyway, not to mention remaining on a tabian baan. Presumably the Thai passport is not intended to be used a passport of convenience in the way that so many thousands of Hong Kong Chinese have gone to Canada for just long enough to get their Canadian passorts and then go back to live in Hong Kong!

Right - this is a grey area. I agree that they import here is to reinforce the position that Thai nationality is not for convenience and can be revoked if one stays away for too long, albeit not automatically, and with seemingly no minimum residence requirement - one can seemingly remain under the radar (if indeed a radar actually exists, as I have never heard of this rule being enforced) by staying on a Tabien Bahn and presumably visiting every 5 years to renew the passport and ID card.

Thai PR, on the other hand, automatically lapses if the holder stays away for just one day too long, but the holder can get aound this by spending just a couple of days in the country each year to renew the stamps. Other counties are more strict about residency requirements, for PR in particular, revoking it if lengthy minimum residence requirements are not met. Australia, for example, imposes a 2 in 5 year rule on its PR holders, which is why I am in Australia at this very moment. I was given Australian PR as a skilled migrant a few years back, and wanted to keep it as a plan B, so I took some work over here for a while. Luckily for me, they are flexible on the 2 in 5 rule, so long as you can demonstrate ties to the country, and I just got another 5 year Resident Return Visa, so I am now free to come back to Thailand. I was given a lecture by the Aussie immigration and reminded that Aussie PR is not for convenience and that the residence requirements are taken seriously, but they still gave me the RRV.

I think that the US, the UK and other places are also strict on residence requirements for PR holders, but not sure on the specifics.

Sydney is nice, but I am getting homesick!

Edited March 4, 2009 by dbrenn

[samran]

Don't worry dbren, you Poms are the least likely to take out Australian citizenship....so you are pretty typicall of your compatriots

But I'm being a bit hypocritcal, I am in exactly the same boat with UK FLR. Have till june 30 this year to 'get it back' lest I lose if forever...still pondering if it is worth it....can't really see the UK as a 'back up' for me though...

[dbrenn]

Don't worry dbren, you Poms are the least likely to take out Australian citizenship....so you are pretty typicall of your compatriots

But I'm being a bit hypocritcal, I am in exactly the same boat with UK FLR. Have till june 30 this year to 'get it back' lest I lose if forever...still pondering if it is worth it....can't really see the UK as a 'back up' for me though...

Samran, you are probably right about the Aussie citizenship thing - that would mean staying here as a PR for 4 years (they recently increased it from 2 years). Aussie is actually a great place to be, but having spent 18 years in Thailand I'm sure I will go stir crazy before I can reach the 4 year mark to qualify for an Aussie passport ...

A choice between Aussie and Thailand is a good one, as far as I can see. I wouldn't bother about the UK FLR if I were you. Think of the dreadful weather, the economic doom and gloom, etc, etc. Seriously though, I love England simply because it is my mother land, but I wouldn't want to live there again. Better to split my time between Thailand and Aussie - Thailand being the fun place and Aussie being a safe and stable place to fall back on, finally ending up retired on a Thai beach somewhere, with all that pampering that only Thailand can offer ...

[samran]

A choice between Aussie and Thailand is a good one, as far as I can see. I wouldn't bother about the UK FLR if I were you. Think of the dreadful weather, the economic doom and gloom, etc, etc.

tell me about it....5 years to get a british passport.

Really pondering it more for my daughters though. They'd have 4 passports each then...Thai, Aust, NZ and if we could take the gloom, british!

[dbrenn]

A choice between Aussie and Thailand is a good one, as far as I can see. I wouldn't bother about the UK FLR if I were you. Think of the dreadful weather, the economic doom and gloom, etc, etc.

tell me about it....5 years to get a british passport.

Really pondering it more for my daughters though. They'd have 4 passports each then...Thai, Aust, NZ and if we could take the gloom, british!

Depends how long you have to be there to renew your FLR - just a few days in June when the weather is nice might be worth it and will keep your options open.

Four passports must be close to a record, and a UK passport does open up the EU, if that's what you want for your daughters. Whether or not you will be able to put up with the 5 years in the UK necessary to get your passport, with all your other options on nicer places to live is a different story. The weather alone is enough to put me off the place, not to mention the economy, winters when you spend most of the time in depressing and freezing darkness, the overcrowding, the yobs, the drab housing, the sky high cost of living, the obsession with political correctness. I could go on ..

[Arkady]

I have now had another look at the information on the Special Branch's website and one thing that jumps right out of the first page is their extract of the Nationality Act Section 11 Clause 4. This allows foreigners married to Thais to bypass the 5 year residency requirement altogether along with the requirement to be able to speak and understand Thai. A little more research revealed that clause 4 was added in the Nationality Act (Version 4) of February 2007, the existence of which I admit I was unaware and it has presumably been in force for not very long, as it takes some time for laws to come into force with publication in the Royal Gazette and often new ministerial regulations required beforehand. None of the English translations of the 1965 Act seem to include the amendments of the 2007 version 4 and I suspect few foreigners know they exist. How receptive Special Branch and the Interior Ministry might be to foreign males with Thai wives trying to exercise their right to apply without PR or even 5 years residency with a work permit and being unable to speak or understand Thai is also a moot point. Theoretically they should be able to use an interpreter at their interviews, as used to be allowed in applying for PR, but this may well not be the case. Of course, unlike foreign women married to Thais, they would still need to be able to meet the other requirements, such as having a job and paying tax, although the hurdles for these are much lower for men married to Thais. Anyway we have to remember that naturalization, even for women married to Thais, is legally at the discretion of the Minister and not a right to anyone who can get 50 points.

Re Thai language tests, I note that applicants are asked to read and write something simple in Thai, whereas the Act is quite specific in requiring spoken Thai and aural comprehension only. Perhaps they are just curious.

I have not yet found any other changes in the guidelines or documents required but another item of interest is the list of people who sit on the committee to approve naturalization. It is a long list of 15 people from different government agencies which may help explain why the process takes so long. I will try to translate it when I have time to give an idea of what government departments are involved in scrutinizing applications. Many seem to involve national security but there is also a professor of something like social development at Chula.

I think the points system has been around internally for a while. When I applied the officials at the Special Branch often referred to points, but the system was not transparent and I was not privy to the criteria under which points were accrued. All I could do at the time was hope for the best. The checklist, however, had to be adhered to, and there was no way they would have accepted that I met the domicile criteria without 5 years PR. Nothing on the checklist provided for demostration of residence with only a work permit or any other documentattion. The certificate of residence and alien registration were mandatory - to the extent where I had to visit the Ampher and Immigration with letters from the Special Branch to have these documents verified. That's why I am rather suprised to see the clause that seemingly permits a claim to residence without the PR documents.

On second glance the wording that describes the evidence of 5 years' residence that can be used to get points in place of having a Certificate of Residence or an Alien Book (i.e. being a PR) may be more specific than I thought. It is referred to as tabian rassadorn which seems also to be one of the documents that certain categories of people who lost their Thai nationality as a result of Revolutionary Decree 337 of 1972 (mainly hill tribes) can present in order to reclaim their nationality. Perhaps a tabian rassadorn is one of the documents that are only issued to hill tribes, in which case this provision wouldn't apply to farangs. I will do some more research.

BTW Samran, thanks for your reply re Revolutionary Decree 337 but I have still not managed to find a copy. It is not on the Council of State website, probably because it was superceded by Section 7 bis in the 1992 amendments which I believe rewrote it. If any one has a copy, please post it.

I have uploaded the Thai version of the latest version of the Nationality Act 1965 complete with the 2007 amendments. If any one has an English translation, please post.

Thai_Nationality_Act_with_2007_amendments.pdf

Edited March 6, 2009 by Arkady

[wayfarer108]

[...] he may have been at fault for claiming to have an unbroken employement record. I would not recommend applying for citizenship for anyone who has to misrepresent his past - like you say, they do check.

That makes sense. Other than making a false statement, though, does the application for citizenship have anything to with one's work record? In other words is a retired foreigner with PR still eligible to apply?

The answer to Sabaijai's question is no, a retired foreigner with PR is not eligible to apply. The Nationality Act stipulates in Section 10.3 that applicants must "have a regular occupation". Interior Ministry regulations further define this to mean a specific minimum remuneration which was Baht 7,000 a month when I first looked at it (even though at the time this wasn't enough to get a work permit) and is now Baht 80,000 for those not married to Thais. I suppose they are concerned that new citizens should be able to support themselves through employment in Thailand which they can easily verify. In theory a retired billionaire PR would have to set up a business and employ himself in it for at least three years, if he wanted to apply.

Good info. What is the salary requirement if the applicant is married to a Thai national?

[Mario2008]

[...] he may have been at fault for claiming to have an unbroken employement record. I would not recommend applying for citizenship for anyone who has to misrepresent his past - like you say, they do check.

That makes sense. Other than making a false statement, though, does the application for citizenship have anything to with one's work record? In other words is a retired foreigner with PR still eligible to apply?

The answer to Sabaijai's question is no, a retired foreigner with PR is not eligible to apply. The Nationality Act stipulates in Section 10.3 that applicants must "have a regular occupation". Interior Ministry regulations further define this to mean a specific minimum remuneration which was Baht 7,000 a month when I first looked at it (even though at the time this wasn't enough to get a work permit) and is now Baht 80,000 for those not married to Thais. I suppose they are concerned that new citizens should be able to support themselves through employment in Thailand which they can easily verify. In theory a retired billionaire PR would have to set up a business and employ himself in it for at least three years, if he wanted to apply.

Let me clearify this a bit. I believe there has never been a minimum income requirement for a foreigner to receive a WP. The income requirement comes from immigration. It is immigration who will not give an extension of stay if you earn less then the required minimum.

(I'm not sure how this was in the past, but this is the situation under current rules)

[olsen]

Hey....what is PR????

[Mario2008]

Hey....what is PR????

PR is permanent residency, the right to stay in Thailand without the need to have to extend your permission of stay every year. it is discussed here:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Camerata-s-G...ide-t74654.html

[dbrenn]

Good info. What is the salary requirement if the applicant is married to a Thai national?

The rules state:

Income (monthly) in the case of marriage to a Thai national, or having children born in Thailand, or having graduated finished from high school in Thailand:

30,000 to 40,000 – 5 points

40,000 to 50,000 – 8 points

Over 50,000 – 10 points

However, I got the impression from the people at the Special Branch that the more one earns, the better.

[dbrenn]

.... How receptive Special Branch and the Interior Ministry might be to foreign males with Thai wives trying to exercise their right to apply without PR or even 5 years residency with a work permit and being unable to speak or understand Thai is also a moot point ... we have to remember that naturalization, even for women married to Thais, is legally at the discretion of the Minister and not a right to anyone who can get 50 points....

Very intersting post, Arkady, and your research is most impressive.

From my experience, regardless of what the law says, the whole process does seem to be discretionary. There is a checklist, which even if it is at odds with the wording of the law, must nevertheless be strictly adhered to in order to lodge an application. Even the tiniest deviation from the checklist will result in a polite refusal by the people at Special Branch, and any questions are obliquely rebuffed with "nothing we can do about that - it's up to the Interior Minister". Only when you comply with each and every item in the checklist, does the process begin.

Edited March 6, 2009 by dbrenn

[Arkady]

I am now sure that tabian rassadorn is the generic name for residential registration of individuals which means that the only example a farang might have without being a PR would be a yellow tabian baan but the checklist still requires PR documents. Perhaps some one with a yellow tabian baan before they got PR could thus shave a couple of years' off the process at the cost of a couple of points but no hope of using a work permit and non-immigrant visa as the 5 years' residence required in the Act.

The issue of foreign men married to Thais doesn't appear to recognized at all in the checklist, even though it is on page one of the guidelines. To be consistent with the current law the checklist which seems to have been reviewed after the 2007 law was promulgated should say alien book and residence cert are not required for men with Thai wives, as the justification for requiring these is as evidence that the 5 year residence requirement has been satisfied. On the other hand the law doesn't say the Ministry is not entitled to require PR as a qualification of suitability and it will may well to continue to do so, although I wouldn't be surprised if they will waive the 5 years requirement for those with Thai wives because that is specifically no longer required in the current version of the Act. It still seems appropriate to test every one on Thai language and it is easy to see that some one who can't speak a word would also be considered unsuitable, even if the law doesn't forbid it. Anyway the intention of the new clause added by the Sarayudh government (that was generally regarded as xenophobic because of its attempts to tighten up the Foreign Business Act) seems to be that foreign men married to Thais (or rather their wives) should have some concession without making it quite as easy as the other way round. Since men are still regarded as breadwinners they still need to have incomes and pay tax, although the threshhold for those with Thai wives is quite low. It will interesting to see how this is interpreted by the Ministry over the coming years.

[Arkady]

As promised, here is the composition of committee that screens applications for Thai nationality under Sections 9 and 10 of the 1965 Nationality Act according to announcement 0308.4/5718 of the Interior Ministry’s Administration Dept dated 3 June 2007. Section 9 covers women applying based on their husband’s nationality and Section 10 covers other applicants. I am not sure if I have translated all the convoluted names of the various Interior Ministry departments correctly.

Executive Working Committee Responsible for Screening Applications for Thai Nationality

1. Deputy Director General, Department of Administrative Affairs, Security Section. (Chairman of the Committee).

2. Commander of the Police Special Branch, or a Representative.

3. Commander of the Police Immigration Bureau, or a Representative.

4. A Representative from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

5. A Representative from the National Security Council.

6. A Representative from the Human Rights Commission.

7. A Professor of Law from Chulalongkorn University.

8. Legal Advisor to the Ministry of Interior, or a Representative.

9. Director from the Legal Investigation Office of the Department of Administrative Affairs.

10. Legal Expert from the Department of Administrative Affairs.

11. Director from the Residential Registrations Section of the Department of Administrative Affairs.

12. Director of the Office of Internal Security of the Department of Administrative Affairs (Secretary of the Committee).

13. Director of the Civil Service Coordination Division, Internal Security Section, Department of Administrative Affairs. (Assistant Secretary of the Committee).

14. Head of the Minorities and Citizenship Division of the Civil Service Coordination Division, Internal Security Section, Department of Administrative Affairs. (Assistant Secretary of the Committee).

15. Head of the Registration of Stateless Persons Division of the Residential Registrations Section of the Department of Administrative Affairs. (Assistant Secretary of the Committee).

According to the flow chart on the Special Branch website, this committee is in fact the group of people at the Interior Ministry that applicants appear before to be interviewed and perform the national and royal anthems. The flow chart shows specific time lines until the point applications reach this committee. Then it says that it is impossible to specify how long the committee will take to consider the applications before passing its recommendations to the Interior Minister. Likewise it says it is impossible to specify how long the minister will take to consider the recommendations of the committee.

Presumably this announcement formed part of new ministerial regulations issued in the wake of the 2007 Version 4 amendments to the Nationality Act and must have altered the composition of the committee in some ways, including no doubt the addition of the Human Rights Commission. Looking at the listing of departments and prevalence of internal security, it seems as if the ministry is still somewhat in Cold War mode and intent on keeping out communist fifth columnists from the Chinese community (many Chinese did in fact have their Thai citizenship revoked during the Cold War, while studying in China, and remained persona non-grata in Thailand for over 20 years) and more recently (i.e. the 70s) from hill tribe and Indochinese communities. (Vietnamese applicants actually have a special level of scrutiny of their own specified in the ministerial regulations from a department that is not involved in screening other applicants.)

At the end of section on applying for nationality on the Special Branch website there are ministerial announcements of 2005 dealing with process of revoking Thai nationality from naturalized Thais. There is a similar working committee for screening candidates for revocation of nationality under Sections 16, 17, 18 and 19 of the Nationality Act which are the sections dealing with involuntary revocation of nationality. The role of this working committee is to make recommendations to be processed under Section 20 of Act which provides for a higher committee to make the final decision on revocation comprising: a representative of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the Director-General of the Department of Administrative Affairs, the Director-General of the Police Department and the Director-General of the Public Prosecution Department. The working committee on revocation comprises 12 people who are nearly all from the same departments represented on the committee for considering applications for nationality, although in several cases more junior ranks, minus the Foreign Ministry, the Human Rights Commission and Chulalongkorn University. There is no indication of how frequently this committee meets or how onerous its workload might be but it is clearly all primed and ready to consider candidates for revocation of citizenship whenever or if ever needed. The information about the revocation committee is tacked on to the end of the citizenship application website, perhaps as a warning, although we rarely hear of its work.

[TheChiefJustice]

According to the flow chart on the Special Branch website, this committee is in fact the group of people at the Interior Ministry that applicants appear before to be interviewed and perform the national and royal anthems.

When I went for my interview last year, I was interview by a group of four people. All of them were very friendly. On the day of my interview, there were about 100 applicants. Out of that number, 3 (including me) were farangs.

[Arkady]

According to the flow chart on the Special Branch website, this committee is in fact the group of people at the Interior Ministry that applicants appear before to be interviewed and perform the national and royal anthems.

When I went for my interview last year, I was interview by a group of four people. All of them were very friendly. On the day of my interview, there were about 100 applicants. Out of that number, 3 (including me) were farangs.

Interesting. The wording on the flow chart seems to suggest that the committee interviews applicants in person but they must have delegated the job to a smaller working group in your case which seems more practical anyway. I think Dbrenn said he sang into a microphone in front of about 40 people which is suggestive of a full committee meeting plus hangers on.

When did you actually apply?

What kind of questions did they ask and did they test reading and writing skills?

Did you see most of the other candidates? If so, of the majority of candidates who were not farangs did they mainly look Chinese and Indian (consistent with the profile of PR applications) or did it look like there were a lot of hill tribe people and former Indochinese refugees too? How about male female mix?

[dbrenn]

... I think Dbrenn said he sang into a microphone in front of about 40 people which is suggestive of a full committee meeting plus hangers on ...

That's how it was in my case. The people in the room were a mix of senior and junior looking officials, with the Chairman sitting at the opposite end of the room by himself and directing the proceedings. The others were seated in two tiers along the sides of the room, with the more senior looking ones in the front row and the juniors sitting behind - typical Thai meeting form. I was stood at the front of the room. The senior ones took it in turns to ask me questions after I had finished singing.

We were called in one by one, and there must have been around 30 other candidates there on that day. They did not appear to be hill tribe or Indonesian. Most were Asian, office / business types, with a couple of Indians and a Nepalese guy who was in front of me.

On the subject of whether Thai language is a requirement, although my wife went with me, she was not allowed to go into the room with me, and all the questions were in Thai. I don't think that the committee would have taken kindly to any suggestion that I was legally entitled to use an interpreter, but this was going back three years or so ...

[Arkady]

The exemption from the knowledge of Thai language and 5 years' residence for husbands of Thai wives only came in via the 2008 Nationality Act (Section 9). Perhaps the Ministry is taking time to consider carefully how this change in the law should be implemented without endangering national security and probably no Thai civil groups are pushing for it, or maybe it actually has been quietly implemented. Personally I think it is reasonable to require knowledge of the official language to get citizenship of any country, although I think this was a well meant attempt to address the gender discrimination.

The change caused by the 2008 Act that is being very actively followed up by civil groups is Section 23 that restores citizenship to people born in Thailand to two alien parents who lost their citizenship or never got it as a result of Revolutionary Decree 337 of 1972. About 4,000 formerly stateless people have already successfully claimed citizenship but there are a lot of disputed cases and apparently a certain amount of stonewalling from district offices refusing to issue ID cards to people who obviously qualify. I don't think these, who are mainly hill tribes, actually need to sing the anthems because they are now Thai by birth.

I have now found a translation of the 2008 Nationality Act which I upload here but I haven't yet found a translation of the 1965 Nationality with the amendments from the 2008 Act added in.

Thai_Nationality_Act__No.4__2008__B.E.2551__en_.pdf

Edited March 9, 2009 by Arkady

[TheChiefJustice]

When did you actually apply?

What kind of questions did they ask and did they test reading and writing skills?

Did you see most of the other candidates? If so, of the majority of candidates who were not farangs did they mainly look Chinese and Indian (consistent with the profile of PR applications) or did it look like there were a lot of hill tribe people and former Indochinese refugees too? How about male female mix?

I applied with the Special Branch in May 2007 and had my interview with the Interior Ministry in July 2008. I have heard nothing since the day of my interview, although I now have a few people making discrete enquiries on my behalf. On the day of the interview, all of the interviewees were herded into an outer meeting room with about 7 rows of long tables. All in all there were about 100 applicants and I was able to see all of them. Of the non-farangs, I would say that the majority were from Taiwan, mainland China, India, and other Asian countries, including Japan and Korea. Although I could not really tell, I did not get the impression that any of these people were hilltribe people. There were very few females, certainly not more than 10%.

Each person was required to register by producing the Interior Ministry letter asking to come for the interview. We were each then asked to write down our names (in Thai) and our mobile numbers. Each person was then given a ticket with a number on it. There were three different color tickets, which I thought was interesting. Further questioning led me to understand that blue cards meant those who had applied less than 2 years ago, green between 2 and 4 years ago, and white for 4 or more years. Apparently, the fact that I was asked to come in for an interview within just a little over one year since the date of my application was considered very quick. Evidently, some people had been waiting for their interview for a very long time.

As people were called, we were ushered into a smaller inner meeting room with two desks in the middle and an L shaped sofa at the back. We were called in 6 or so at a time. Each table had 4 interviewers. When we entered the room we were aksed to stand against the wall and our photo was taken. You then sat on the sofa and waited to be called up to one of the tables. Obviously, we were able to see the other people being interviewed. When it was my turn, I went and sat down and was asked to introduce myself. At no time was an English spoken. In fact, I did not speak a word of English from the start of the process at the Special Branch. We chatted a bit about my job and how I liked living in Thailand. It was all very informal. I was then asked to sing the National Anthem and, after that, the Royal Anthem. I had brought the words with me just in case and I asked if I could set them out on the desk and refer to them in the event that my nerves got the better of me. They had no problem with that. Once my singing was done, one of the interviewers asked me if I understood the meaning of the words in the Royal Anthem. I said that I did, which was a bit of a fib. She then proceeded to ask me the meaning of one particular line. Of course, the language is ราชาศัพท์ which is not my forte. I gave it a go but she wasn't too impressed by my interpretation and said that I should go home and study the meaning of each line of this very important song. I thanked her for her kind advice and promised that I would go home forthwith and do just that. They then asked me about my studying law at university here and we chatted about that for a while. That was basically it. Not questions about why I wanted to get Thai citizenship etc. They told me that I would need to wait for the Minister to make a decision. I thanked them for their time and then left. I have not heard a peep since.

At no time during the Minisrty Interview were my writing and reading skills tested. Also, I did not see anyone else asked to write or read anything. The Special Branch interview, on the other hand, tested both writing and reading skills. A 10 question multiple choice test was given. Basic stuff about Thailand, the name of the current Interior Minister (tricky, given frequent changes) etc. I was also asked to write on a piece of paper ฉันรักประเทศไทย. When I wrote it, the examiner was startled at what she perceived to be beautiful penmanship. She rushed out of the room to show her equally impressed colleagues. Such was her reaction that I wondered whether she was taking the piss. Perhaps not. The Special Branch interview was also recorded on video. I was asked to introduce myself and explian why I wanted Thai citizenship. I knew exactly what to say due to the fact that the people from the National Intelligence Agency who visited me at my office told me what I should say if someone ever asked me this question. IN any event, after the video, the 10 multiple choice questions and the beautiful penmanship, I was told that I scored a perfect 10 on the language component.

When I applied I had been in Thailand for 10 years on continuous Non-Imm B visas and I had had my PR for a little over 3 years. The thing that proved my residence in Thailand was from my unbroken Non-Imm B visas. Also, they went through my passport with a fine tooth comb and counted every single stamp in and out to make sure that after all was said and done I had been in Thailand for at least 5 years before applying and that I had not let any of my visas lapse at any time, thereby breaking the chain of residence.

As Dbrenn has said, one must produce all of the documents listed on the checklist. Your application will not be accepted by the Special Branch unless this is the case.

Edited March 10, 2009 by TheChiefJustice