This Is Starting To Pi$$ Me Off

[bonobo]

Well, I guess I must be naive, because anytime I have ever met a Thai woman who speaks credible English, I tend to assume she went to school in the US, UK, Austrailia, New Zealand, or Canada.

[Tod Daniels]

Several good points have been broached in this thread (along with the usual garbage).

I would wager that EVERY thai under about 40, who attended school thru even M-3 level can speak reasonable engrish, with a fair degree of accuracy and coherency. After all, they attended an engrish class every day for the entire time they attended school. Sadly (for them); practice outside the class in most villages, and even most fair sized cities is less than non-existent. Their engrish language skills fall simply by the wayside thru no viable means of practice, not thru not knowing it. I have rarely met a group of people who learn as much engrish in school, yet are more reticent to speak than the thais.

I do think it is fairly easy to discern by a thai speaker's vocabulary the 'venue' in which they acquired their engrish language skills. There are too many "tells" in their word choices and their sentence constructs. Even a semi intelligent first language engrish speaker who has spent any amount of time in the glorious "Land 'O Thais" would immediately be able to key in on it.

It is the same for foreigners speaking thai (or thinking they can speak thai). Again too many "tells", and by listening to their overall speaking ability, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out where they acquired their thai. Some nameless but illustrious posters have disagreed with me on this, but I believe I can tell in a few minutes of conversation whether a person acquired their thai in school, off the Soi street sellers, or in a bar.

I also agree with PeaceBlondie in the premise that most thais do have quite a bit of "interference" built into their engrish ability, no matter their degree of education, simply because their language rules are so imprinted upon them. They end up using them for engrish; even if engrish has a contradictory rule or no rule at all. An example is when thais say a word which starts with an 's', example, "speak", "stop", "slowly" yet add the short 'a' after the initial 's', turning the words into "sa-peak, sa-top, sa-lowly, because thai has an inherent 'a' built into their 's'. Their rules are too hard coded into their minds to break easily. The same holds true in reverse for foreigner's speaking thai. I continually catch myself importing my engrish language rules when I speak thai.

The point about the almost overpowering need for foreigners to "validate" their (in)significant others social standing (and/or lack thereof), and the driving need to delineate she is/was not in the "customer service industry" is mind boggling, as well as another subject entirely. If I had a baht every time someone introduced their wife with the phrase, "She's a good girl.." I'd be rich.

I don't believe working in the 'customer service industry' i.e.: P4P means anything other than that was/is her "job". I don't think it inherently affects the moral values of a person either positively or negatively. Of course the industry itself can and does continually exert pressure upon the workers to change or morph their psyche into something much more mercenary, but that is also another subject altogether.

[DP25]

I would wager that EVERY thai under about 40, who attended school thru even M-3 level can speak reasonable engrish, with a fair degree of accuracy and coherency. After all, they attended an engrish class every day for the entire time they attended school.

Have you ever spoken with a Thai English teacher? Lets just say a lot of them would have trouble with Green Eggs and Ham, let alone having any kind of actual spoken conversation.

[GuestHouse]

I don't believe working in the 'customer service industry' i.e.: P4P means anything other than that was/is her "job". I don't think it inherently affects the moral values of a person either positively or negatively.

A truly outstanding piece of self deception and proof positive that the biggest lies a foreigner hears in Thailand are the lies he tells himself.

[jdinasia]

I would wager that EVERY thai under about 40, who attended school thru even M-3 level can speak reasonable engrish, with a fair degree of accuracy and coherency. After all, they attended an engrish class every day for the entire time they attended school.

Have you ever spoken with a Thai English teacher? Lets just say a lot of them would have trouble with Green Eggs and Ham, let alone having any kind of actual spoken conversation.

I wouldn't go quite that far ....

BUT it does not seem likely that tod-daniels has spent any time in Thailand if he thinks the way he appears to!

(I do in fact know teachers that have M.Ed degrees in English that cannot speak English with any level of fluency! (Though they CAN, given a decent time frame, produce written English that is on average FAR superior to many native speaker's ability in grammar etc. -- that being said none of those teachers I know have any real proficiency with idiom)

[h90]

I just finished reading a story on another Thailand based site. The owner always leaves some sort of comment after the story. You know what site it is.

What is really starting to piss me off is this assumption or so called red-flag that if a Thai woman can speak reasonable or good English, this is immediately suspicious and probably some kind of Freelancer or (ex-)BG.

What is it with some of these guys? There are PLENTY of Thai women that speak English very well and are not scam artists, freelancers, BGs or otherwise.

Many checklistz you see about characteristics that a (Thai) woman should have in order to qualify as good wife material mentions: None or minimal English ability. <deleted>? The MOST important thing for any relationship to succeed is to be able to communicate. And then some BS about how the man should first learn Thai to a reasonable level. Come on! If she can speak English then what's the problem?

My fiancee taught herself English because she wanted to expand her education and ability to communicate. That does help in Hotel Management. Not to mention when you deal with computers a lot and are interested in them. There are women in this country who are straight up and not after your money.

Some may scoff and place some condescending or insinuating comment after this. Like they have before...

Go ahead, it will just illustrate what kind of embittered and blinkered losers they are.

When you know the usual male farangs and their girls, it is in 99 % true.....

[thaihome]

...I know of no other place where this constant need to assert the 'good-girl' credentials of one's partner exists - that surely tells us something about Thailand and foreigner/Thai relationships in Thailand.

Did run into this quite a bit in China as well.

TH

[Thai at Heart]

This isn't just reserved for foreigners looking at Thai girls. It took us 4 meetings having met the boss of Thai airways in a European country for his wife to even say boo to my wife. Unless someone can vouch for the newcomer people tend to see the worst unfortunately.

[yabaaaa]

Well, I guess I must be naive, because anytime I have ever met a Thai woman who speaks credible English, I tend to assume she went to school in the US, UK, Austrailia, New Zealand, or Canada.

Me too or a good school there but not always necessary , some folk just pick up languages easily. Met a nice girl a month ago at the fun park with her friend. We went on a few rides together and her English wa s excellent. She told me she wa s studying at a Uni nearby and popped out in her lunch with her friend. Had a good chat and then parted. Heres a photo of us. Wife took it she was afraid to go on the rides ahhahaha we all ha d a good time though.

[EvilDrSomkid]

A couple of things to reply in brief to all the commenters:

-It was not a trolling post. I just wanted to air my grievance. Its what a forum is useful for. My usual forum to air irritations, is offline at the moment.

-I know discussions of BGs and similar are not allowed according the Forum rules. It was not meant as a discussion of this.

-Yes, it was Stickman's site, and no I am not going to discuss it with him. Not useful. I know what kind of people he hangs around with, "purely for investigative purposes". However, I have no need to slag him off. Each to his own.

-I have no need to declare my fiancee is a "good girl" as that trap is indeed easy to fall into and counterproductive.

-I do realise that the way English is spoken and other characteristics are telling. Same goes for westerners' choice of Thai vocabulary. I learnt my Thai from books, practice with workmates, locals and of course my better half. The engrish thing I totally understand. Germans and Italians have a similar thing when they speak English that does not bother me. It would be quite ignorant on my part if it did.

-A tattoo is not a 100% guarantee that she is/was a pro. Some people make silly mistakes when they are young. There must be plenty of people here who got a tat when 16 or 18 because they thought it would be cool. I am grateful I avoided that.

And that is what I have to say in this matter.

[john b good]

I would wager that EVERY thai under about 40, who attended school thru even M-3 level can speak reasonable engrish, with a fair degree of accuracy and coherency. After all, they attended an engrish class every day for the entire time they attended school.

Have you ever spoken with a Thai English teacher? Lets just say a lot of them would have trouble with Green Eggs and Ham, let alone having any kind of actual spoken conversation.

This started out as a thread on whether a Thai female with some ability to speak English is likely to be/is/or might be a hooker.

But you DP25, have added another salient point into the equation and that is that Thailand is one of the poorest in the region in terms of their ability to speak English. (across all the population)

It does not matter whether it is bank staff, insurance company staff, Thai teachers of English, shop assistants etc., etc., have an extremely poor command of English.

The only ones as a group who do have a reasonable command of English are those who have been married or partnered up with an expat, tour guides, AND, yes your average lady of the night.

Thai's cannot begin to be compared with Indians, Filipinos, Indonesians and certainly not in the same breath with Singaporeans.

[Gary A]

There are many rude, uncouth and stupid people all over the world. No one is going to change them so why bother? Yes, it can be irritating so one has to learn to ignore them.

[Neeranam]

certainly agree with the OP on the need to be able to communicate with each other in a relationship.

(personally I dont see why it should matter through which method their English is good or bad....)

but let me remind everyone that discussions of bar girls are against forum rules. so lets stay clear of that

cheers

I know a couple of couples who are still together due to their inability to communicate.

[Neeranam]

There are obvious signs to whether or not a Thai woman was in The Industry.

The tell tales signs are the vocabulary -

1- same same

2- poong

3- no money no honey

4- ba ba bo bo

5- boom boom

etc

[Neeranam]

-I have no need to declare my fiancee is a "good girl" as that trap is indeed easy to fall into and counterproductive.

-I do realise that the way English is spoken and other characteristics are telling. Same goes for westerners' choice of Thai vocabulary. I learnt my Thai from books, practice with workmates, locals and of course my better half. The engrish thing I totally understand. Germans and Italians have a similar thing when they speak English that does not bother me. It would be quite ignorant on my part if it did.

-A tattoo is not a 100% guarantee that she is/was a pro. Some people make silly mistakes when they are young. There must be plenty of people here who got a tat when 16 or 18 because they thought it would be cool. I am grateful I avoided that.

As a matter of interest, which hotel did you met your gf?

As for the tatoo - not 100% but sure as hel_l near it.

[BigSnake]

I just finished reading a story on another Thailand based site. The owner always leaves some sort of comment after the story. You know what site it is.

What is really starting to piss me off is this assumption or so called red-flag that if a Thai woman can speak reasonable or good English, this is immediately suspicious and probably some kind of Freelancer or (ex-)BG.

What is it with some of these guys? There are PLENTY of Thai women that speak English very well and are not scam artists, freelancers, BGs or otherwise.

Many checklistz you see about characteristics that a (Thai) woman should have in order to qualify as good wife material mentions: None or minimal English ability. <deleted>? The MOST important thing for any relationship to succeed is to be able to communicate. And then some BS about how the man should first learn Thai to a reasonable level. Come on! If she can speak English then what's the problem?

My fiancee taught herself English because she wanted to expand her education and ability to communicate. That does help in Hotel Management. Not to mention when you deal with computers a lot and are interested in them. There are women in this country who are straight up and not after your money.

Some may scoff and place some condescending or insinuating comment after this. Like they have before...

Go ahead, it will just illustrate what kind of embittered and blinkered losers they are.

I hear you Evil and concur, just remember it's best to be PissOff than PissON!

[yumidesign]

not all, right but most of them usually are

[john1000]

I think like all generalizations the observation is clearly not always true.

But then like many generalizations it is based is a truism.

I also believe that this endless need guys seem to have to assert that their sweetheart is a 'goodgirl' is nothing other than an admission to the truism that the generalization is based on.

I know of no other place where this constant need to assert the 'good-girl' credentials of one's partner exists - that surely tells us something about Thailand and foreigner/Thai relationships in Thailand.

Yes this constant searching for the right one and " she is different" is based on fantasy. Good and bad everywhere except the Thai lady is very good at the art of deceit; as is driven by a honest need to help family and sick.

Buyer beware....most are OK and looking for a nice guy.... just that guys are easily hooked and taken in and this is publicised much more tha the thousands who are happy.

[Neeranam]

Buyer beware....most are OK and looking for a nice guy..

Nonsense - most are OK and looking for money - a nice guy is a bonus.

[Maizefarmer]

certainly agree with the OP on the need to be able to communicate with each other in a relationship.

(personally I dont see why it should matter through which method their English is good or bad....)

but let me remind everyone that discussions of bar girls are against forum rules. so lets stay clear of that

cheers

I know a couple of couples who are still together due to their inability to communicate.

Yes - how true: indeed, the very fact that such couples do not communicate beyond a certain level, means that there is always a "distance" between them which prevents them from getting under each others skin and having to deal with all the issues/conflicts that arise as people get close - they never really get to know each other.

A very good observation Neeranam.

[pop_corn]

All? thats extreme to say. All is relative really, there are some with no english who are prostitutes, some have very good english and they are, some may work in something else but they also do "business" behind or in some sort like this university girl going out with this 59 years old man.. and asking him to put her in his will. lol.. (is not direct prostitution, but hey...) Diversity of market. hahahaha..

I do know girls who are not into any of above, well educated and stuff but their families would be very ashamed if they ever date a farang. So they keep on the thais! (yeah, they care about their reputation.. specially they wouldn't be in a relationship with a significant age gap) So that can actually tell you alot of the woman. If I see a young woman walking down the street with an old man, holding hands I think of "business" I call them the grandpas and the grand daughters.. awww..

[yabaaaa]

All? thats extreme to say. All is relative really, there are some with no english who are prostitutes, some have very good english and they are, some may work in something else but they also do "business" behind or in some sort like this university girl going out with this 59 years old man.. and asking him to put her in his will. lol.. (is not direct prostitution, but hey...) Diversity of market. hahahaha..

I do know girls who are not into any of above, well educated and stuff but their families would be very ashamed if they ever date a farang. So they keep on the thais! (yeah, they care about their reputation.. specially they wouldn't be in a relationship with a significant age gap) So that can actually tell you alot of the woman. If I see a young woman walking down the street with an old man, holding hands I think of "business" I call them the grandpas and the grand daughters.. awww..

And what age difference would that be? 10-20-30 years??? I know a few Italian men married to women (Italian)12-15 years their junior.

Edited February 17, 2009 by yabaaaa

[JetsetBkk]

BGs have a distinctive English vocabulary that gives them away. They also have encyclopaedic knowledge of the hotels around the Sukhumvit bar areas.

I remember feeling quite disappointed when one of my first "true loves" pointed out the short time hotels as we travelled along the back roads from Sukh soi 3 to Sukh soi 13.

[mahtin]

As for the tatoo - not 100% but sure as hel_l near it.

In a cardiology ward in Germany about 18 months ago I had a chat with a young lady doctor about my impending procedure.

There was no free chair so she sat on the floor by my bed.

She was wearing trousers, and at one point I glimpsed quite an impressive tattoo on her lower back area.

I did not make any trampstamp jokes

[NanLaew]

I've met some of the better English speaking Thai girls at the gym over the years. They are pretty hi-so in manner and appearance. They are well spoken and give no indication at all that they had ever worked in THE industry. The quirky thing is that sometimes you accidentally catch a gimps of a tramp stamp popular with dancers years ago. Usually a filigree of some sort on the lower back near the end of the tailbone or the back of one of the shoulders. When I say accidentally I mean they went to a lot of trouble to cover them up but a clothing shift during a workout sometimes briefly reveals the truth of the matter. These mostly beautiful women in their mid 30's to mid 40's are on some sort of retirement stipend as they are all ladies of leisure now.

As for the tatoo - not 100% but sure as hel_l near it.

In a cardiology ward in Germany about 18 months ago I had a chat with a young lady doctor about my impending procedure.

There was no free chair so she sat on the floor by my bed.

She was wearing trousers, and at one point I glimpsed quite an impressive tattoo on her lower back area.

I did not make any trampstamp jokes

Ah yes, the gym. Where (in the US anyway), over 70% of men admitted that they don't go to the gym for the health and fitness but for the dating possibilities. So is grant really disappointed that these flowers of Thai maidenhood have tattoos or is he just wary of the possibility that one his conquests from a past life may recognise him? Keep working on those abs mate, you may get lucky and pull a young 'un.

I dated the VP of a Houston-based oil company for a spell back in the early 90's. She had what some people tastelessly refer to as a 'tramp stamp' that I preferred to call her 'bumper sticker', it was quite impressive. She claimed she had it done while she was on walkabout in Australia with her girlfriend. But grant has me wondering now if she and mahtin's good lady doctor may have graced the poles at some time.

Edited February 17, 2009 by NanLaew

[Chaimai]

If I see a young woman walking down the street with an old man, holding hands I think of "business" I call them the grandpas and the grand daughters.. awww..

And you think they give a sh!t about what you think ?

[scottyd]

Yes, all old men and their young ladies care what others think. Infact they think about it all the time, non stop, 24/7. Fact.

[grantbkk]

I've met some of the better English speaking Thai girls at the gym over the years. They are pretty hi-so in manner and appearance. They are well spoken and give no indication at all that they had ever worked in THE industry. The quirky thing is that sometimes you accidentally catch a gimps of a tramp stamp popular with dancers years ago. Usually a filigree of some sort on the lower back near the end of the tailbone or the back of one of the shoulders. When I say accidentally I mean they went to a lot of trouble to cover them up but a clothing shift during a workout sometimes briefly reveals the truth of the matter. These mostly beautiful women in their mid 30's to mid 40's are on some sort of retirement stipend as they are all ladies of leisure now.

Now you are falling into the same trap as the OP is complaining about, that of stereotyping. A man is seen with a Thai woman whose appearance suggests she is younger than him, ergo she is an ex-hooker. A woman has a discrete tatto on any part of her body, ergo she is an ex-hooker (or maybe still is one).

It is unfortunate that if you are in a relationship with virtually any Asian woman no matter how many PhD's she may be able to muster there are people of all types who will brand her a "working girl" to use that quaint categorisation. It is part of life's burden that you just have to deal with or get off the train, whoever said life was fair and just anyhow?

What pisses me off is this stigmatisation of these so called working girls particularly by anonymous members of fora like this one. Who are any of us to sit in splendid isolation behind the anonymity of our keyboards and fire off libellous missives about people we have never met all with the bravery of being out of range. Sure some of these girls are in the situation they are in because of greed and idleness but many are there because there is no viable alternative. There is no social security for any Thai to fall back on unlike certain sections of the female population back in sink holes like certain UK housing estates.

Whilst you are all sitting back branding people whores just remember that a whore is a human being too no more no less than yourself. There but for the grace of God and the right number in the genetic/geographical lottery goes yourself.

Wow Phil! I was just making a connection between a woman of a certain age, excellent English skills, similar tattoos and a leisurely lifestyle. I do not consider these well to do women as stigmatized nor do I pass judgment on them. I do know for a fact that my observations could not be wrong in all cases and I am not is splendid isolation libeling anyone with my keyboard. These women "made it" somehow and now do not have jobs. If they were dancers they do not dance anymore unless it is a formal affaire. My missive IMHO was not negative towards these women but just my observations of life in Bangkok over the past 9 years. You are correct in saying that for the grace of God I didn't join this crowd and get a tattoo.

[PeaceBlondie]

A gay friend was depressed the other night, wishing he had taken the barboy out of the bar six years ago. Instead, he shacked up with an older, more respectable Thai man who had never been in the business. Within a year, he ended up living permanently with number two, without sex. He has been seeing number one on a regular basis for boom-boom. Number one's English has improved, and he is even better in bed. No tatoos, either.

Maybe you can take the girl out of the bar, make up a fictional biography and a degree from the rajabat by way of Khao Sahn Road, etc. And live happily ever after. Twenty years later, nobody cares. Or even five years later. However, some old customers might recognize her, even without tatoos.

[clausewitz]

Several good points have been broached in this thread (along with the usual garbage).

I would wager that EVERY thai under about 40, who attended school thru even M-3 level can speak reasonable engrish, with a fair degree of accuracy and coherency.

have you even visited Thailand ?