Prime Minister Worries About Thailand Image

[sriracha john]

They cannot separate from Thaksin entirely at this moment of time because of many people seeing him as a symbol for democracy. Given that he has given wider sectors of the population participation than any other Government has - they do have a point.

Reds might SEE him as a symbol of democracy, doesn't make him one. Reds might CALL their vision for the country democracy, doesn't make it one.

As for giving public participation - what a strange conclusion! Even his own ministers were just elves serving the big boss, and the whole TRT was build on good old ass licking system.

All power rested with Thaksin, no dissent was tolerated within the party and everyone with even slightest shred of integrity has left him over the years.

Public participation was limited to begging Thaksin for money on TV (ala At Samat). That's all people were allowed to contribute.

As for popular policies - every party (ironically except PTP) has them now. Life goes on.

Yes, keep on repeating the same old mantra of Thaksin being in control.

Same old mantra? In under 60 days of your latest thaivisa membership, it's become that already?

[Plus]

Yes, keep on repeating the same old mantra of Thaksin being in control. Just because PAD has stated this unsupportd accusation

Thaksin was described as having dictatorial tencencies long before PAD was born.

I believe we lived through NINE Thaksin Cabinets and the only compromises he has made were with his own cronies when it was time to purge his enemies, like Purachai.

Even Saddam made compromises like that, I believer - any dictator needs to reward his men, it's his mercyless attitude towards his enemies that shows dictator's real nature, not the sweet deals with his chums.

"I'm in charge, the ministers are only my helpers" is his own description of his working style, no need to check ASTV.

[justanothercybertosser]

The difference with this piece was that it argued Thaksin no longer had that much popular support or that maybe it was people had moved beyond him, which is a bit hard to test. However, with major powerbrokers split from him and with populist polices being practiced by his opponents and no removing of previous populist polices his position is obviously not what it was and some of the myths created by TRT are broken. Right now with the arrest/extradition of Thaksin with Chinese cooperation being mooted clearly the current government feel a lot more confident. Personally I dont think it will ocme off but it will probably remove HK and China from places Thaksin can go.

At some point, anyway, someone on one side has to do a deal with at least one meaningful group on the other side and it may just be that Thaksin wont be the one dealt with, or maybe the deal with Newin was the big deal. There is still much that has happened that has not yet worked its way through imho.

A bit hard to test are many so called "analyzes" nowadays. They contain more wishful thinking than fact.

So far, i still see Thaksin being very popular, and i believe that with the increasing economic problems his popularity will only rise. One may like this or not, but unless put to test, which is not possible at the moment, i still prefer to stay with the last clear statistic of his popularity. And that were the annulled 2006 elections, which TRT won with a clear majority. Thaksin personally is still a huge factor in the eyes of the voters, regardless of the splits after his ouster in TRT/PPP.

That is of course more a sign of a emerging democracy than a proper democracy. But this is all that we have had in Thailand so far. What Thaksin rabid opponents will not accept or understand is that Thailand can only develop into a democracy when people vote for somebody else than Thaksin, and not by the old elites removing Thaksin from power. Since the 2006 coup Thailand has been shaken by instability and even less democratic interventions than all that Thaksin has done. And this will continue as long as these elites will interfere on behalf of their interests.

And that is why you see PAD increasingly questioning and even redefing democracy into something that has no resemblence with what is generally understood as democracy. Thailand is still caught in the same old vicious circle of nearly having a democracy, and shying back again into what can be described at best as managed democracy.

This is not just a conflict of the elites, but increasingly a social conflict.

[justanothercybertosser]

Yes, keep on repeating the same old mantra of Thaksin being in control. Just because PAD has stated this unsupportd accusation

Thaksin was described as having dictatorial tencencies long before PAD was born.

Comparing Thaksin to Saddham is pure hyperbole, and not worthy of discussion. Thaksin was accused of many things. When he is described as an authoritarian that is supportable. Describing him as a "Dictator" is only supported by idiotic conspiracy theories.

Edited February 26, 2009 by justanothercybertosser

[jdinasia]

LOL

Thaksin was beyond censure and claimed he had the power. He was elected (well if you can call mass vote buying for his party, getting elected) but then acted in a completely totalitarian manner including his war on drugs. (Saddam was hanged for having ordered the deaths of less people than were killed in the war on drugs)

[Plus]

I actually used "dictatorial tencencies" to specifically prevent resorting to nitpicking and strawman arguments, yet JACT did this anyway - I haven't called him a "dictator" here, no need to allude to misterious idiots with their conspiracy theories.

I also said "even Saddam" - that means that even certified dictators have their favourites they occasionally listen to.

>>>

2006 elections, which TRT won with a clear majority

You mean when they ran unopposed? Or against "no votes". There have never been official results from those elections and Thaksin produced tallies were questioned.

Lots of things have happened since 2006, we've seen his convictions, his flight abroad, his attacks on the country's judiciary system and so on.

ALL analysts I've read so far think his popularity is seriously on the wane.

In 2007 his proxy party decisevely lost the overall majority, btw. Even if candidates from some parties falsely claimed to be his true representatives, PPP still was way short of majority. Not to mention embarassing party list loss to Democrats - people voting for national policies instead of local poo yais, which was allegedly TRT's main strength.

[jumnien]

LOL

Thaksin was beyond censure and claimed he had the power. He was elected (well if you can call mass vote buying for his party, getting elected) but then acted in a completely totalitarian manner including his war on drugs. (Saddam was hanged for having ordered the deaths of less people than were killed in the war on drugs)

The war on drugs was carried out by the same boys whose skirts Abhisit crawled out of into Government House. They are wearing yellow shirts when not in uniform. Life goes on...

[justanothercybertosser]

LOL

Thaksin was beyond censure and claimed he had the power. He was elected (well if you can call mass vote buying for his party, getting elected) but then acted in a completely totalitarian manner including his war on drugs. (Saddam was hanged for having ordered the deaths of less people than were killed in the war on drugs)

The argument of "mass votebuying" has been clearly refuted by studies of Andrew Walker and Giles Ungpakorn, and is nothing but a rabble rousing demagogue's cheap trick.

The "investigation committee" of the coup government has found no direct connection between Thaksin and the drug war killings. That doesn't mean that there wouldn't be any if one really looks. But, as with every single other such atrocity in Thailand's history - we will never see a full investigation, under no government. If you analyse the drug war, you find that Thaksin did not act in a totalitarian manner, but that the drug war was done in agreement, and under collaboration, with every power sector of Thailand. The Thai state acted in a manner that violates Human Rights, and not just Thaksin. Thaksin may have been "head of government", but he had no or very little influence over other sectors of the Thai state. Please read studies on how the Thai state functions, and then draw conclusions. Your idea of the Thai state with Thaksin as a overall powerful man ignores Thai specifics.

[Plus]

The war on drugs was carried out by the same boys whose skirts Abhisit crawled out of into Government House. They are wearing yellow shirts when not in uniform.

Nonsense. Maybe, possibly, the foot soldiers who did the shooting as ordered were from the military units loyal to the powers you are alluding to, but the policy itlsef was Thaskin's brainchild, he is also the one who got all the credit.

[justanothercybertosser]

ALL analysts I've read so far think his popularity is seriously on the wane.

The debate is/was Thaksin's popularity, and not the popularity of parties that stood for elections after Thaksin was ousted, and the 111 executive members were banned. It is a futile point to state that his popularity is now "on the wane" when we have no statistics to back this up.

The last clear statement of his popularity supported by evidence is the 2006 election. There may have been no official counts, but the unofficial counts speak a clear language - a clear majority (not an absolute majority). Everything else is just speculation.

Edited February 26, 2009 by justanothercybertosser

[Plus]

It is a futile point to state that his popularity is now "on the wane" when we have no statistics to back this up

There are indicators of country's mood that can be seen even without clear statistics, and they all point to his waning popularity.

[justanothercybertosser]

It is a futile point to state that his popularity is now "on the wane" when we have no statistics to back this up

There are indicators of country's mood that can be seen even without clear statistics, and they all point to his waning popularity.

That is utter nonsense.

[Jingthing]

It is pretty clear to me and I think most people that Thaksin is less popular than he was before. He is a has been, he will never be dictator for life of Thailand. I think in a theoretical Abhisit-Thaksin election Abhisit would be competitive but still may lose. A lot of news has filtered down about the crimes of Thaksin and he has not exactly acted heroically recently so that even though he may be popular in the red shirt areas, it is somewhat less about the cult of personality of Thaksin and more about the underlying big issues. The trouble the reds have that will probably sink their "movement" is that Thaksin has lost his lustre and also they have NOBODY ELSE to replace him that is a somebody. Abhisit is now a somebody, and you need a somebody to beat a somebody.

Edited February 26, 2009 by Jingthing

[sriracha john]

whether it's 2006, 2007, 2008, or 2009... their violent ways always seems to come to the forefront...

Soldier Attacked by Red-shirts Still in Coma

Police are now seeking CCTV footage from the Bangkok Metropolitan Administration and the government in response to a report that a soldier was beaten by supporters of the red-shirt anti-government last night.

Sergeant Major Aumnuay Thongrin, of Infantry Battalion Region 11, was severely injured by 8 red-shirt protestors in front of the Region 1 Army Headquarters near the demonstration site last night.

The report says Sergeant Major Aumnuay and his companion encountered the red-shirt demonstrators during a routine patrol near the headquarters. The protestors chased the two military officers down and beat Seargeant Major Aumnuay. The other soldier escaped unharmed.

Sergeant Major Aumnuay was sent to Phramongkutklao Hospital and is now in a coma.

This morning, Deputy Metropolitan Police Chief Police Major General Aumnuay Nhimmano visited the victim at the hospital. He said police are now asking for CCTV footage from around the crime scene in an attempt to identify the offenders.

In response to the incident, Region 1 Army Commander, Lieutenant General Kanit Sapitak said the victim was sent to observe the demonstration, and was not there to secretly infiltrate the crowd as the red-shirt leaders have claimed.

The number of red-shirt protesters at Government House is thought to be far less than initially estimated. Less than 300 protesters remain at the rally site.

- TOC / 2009-02-26

Edited February 26, 2009 by sriracha john

[Samuian]

.................................................edited.....

what limits the "pro-democracy" red groups are that they are still seen to be linked to Thaksin. If that is publically seen to no longer be the case then the their own democracy agenda may benefit (not including the R stuff obviously). To achieve this though the "pro-demcracy" red groups probably need to publically seperate. They may argue that they are different but the media sets the tone and they arent seen that way.

Can be easily tuned down to :"Taksins hands" as Jakrapob, Nattawut, Chalerm and Friends are clearly his Advocates and will not stop to rally for the change back to the 1997 Constitution, with the aim to his Amnesty, deletion of all charges against him, because they were "politically motivated" and finally his Restoration as the PM.

If this ever happens, Thailand will be in a very sorry state and find itself in what the "Reds" have as their sarcastic Slogan "Democracy against Dictatorship", it will be an autocratic de facto dictatorship, with heavy censorship on all media as it was seen in the past "Taksin era".

No Replay!

I was actually reading something recently (cant remember where) that was arguing that the red "pro-democracy" movement could move to beyond/abandon Thaksin and professional politicans (Jakrapob, Nattawut, Jatuporn and someone else who I forget now were all mentioned in this category). If this were indeed to happen then that part of the red shirts would be liberated from that connection.

Does this "statement" holds as much as the "I quit politics forever" statement of their employer?

[mc2]

LOL

Thaksin was beyond censure and claimed he had the power. He was elected (well if you can call mass vote buying for his party, getting elected) but then acted in a completely totalitarian manner including his war on drugs. (Saddam was hanged for having ordered the deaths of less people than were killed in the war on drugs)

The argument of "mass votebuying" has been clearly refuted by studies of Andrew Walker and Giles Ungpakorn, and is nothing but a rabble rousing demagogue's cheap trick.

The "investigation committee" of the coup government has found no direct connection between Thaksin and the drug war killings. That doesn't mean that there wouldn't be any if one really looks. But, as with every single other such atrocity in Thailand's history - we will never see a full investigation, under no government. If you analyse the drug war, you find that Thaksin did not act in a totalitarian manner, but that the drug war was done in agreement, and under collaboration, with every power sector of Thailand. The Thai state acted in a manner that violates Human Rights, and not just Thaksin. Thaksin may have been "head of government", but he had no or very little influence over other sectors of the Thai state. Please read studies on how the Thai state functions, and then draw conclusions. Your idea of the Thai state with Thaksin as a overall powerful man ignores Thai specifics.

well said.

[samgrowth]

whether it's 2006, 2007, 2008, or 2009... their violent ways always seems to come to the forefront...

Soldier Attacked by Red-shirts Still in Coma

Police are now seeking CCTV footage from the Bangkok Metropolitan Administration and the government in response to a report that a soldier was beaten by supporters of the red-shirt anti-government last night.

Sergeant Major Aumnuay Thongrin, of Infantry Battalion Region 11, was severely injured by 8 red-shirt protestors in front of the Region 1 Army Headquarters near the demonstration site last night.

The report says Sergeant Major Aumnuay and his companion encountered the red-shirt demonstrators during a routine patrol near the headquarters. The protestors chased the two military officers down and beat Seargeant Major Aumnuay. The other soldier escaped unharmed.

Sergeant Major Aumnuay was sent to Phramongkutklao Hospital and is now in a coma.

This morning, Deputy Metropolitan Police Chief Police Major General Aumnuay Nhimmano visited the victim at the hospital. He said police are now asking for CCTV footage from around the crime scene in an attempt to identify the offenders.

In response to the incident, Region 1 Army Commander, Lieutenant General Kanit Sapitak said the victim was sent to observe the demonstration, and was not there to secretly infiltrate the crowd as the red-shirt leaders have claimed.

The number of red-shirt protesters at Government House is thought to be far less than initially estimated. Less than 300 protesters remain at the rally site.

- TOC / 2009-02-26

Woman Attacked by Police (with exploding tear gas) Still dead.

[JoeThePoster]

Saddam was hanged for having ordered the deaths of less people than were killed in the war on drugs

You betcha

And Santa Claus was spotted in Baghdad last Christmas wearing a G-string.

[Mitker]

For sure Asean members understand Abhi's problems. In Burma, they have Aung San Su Kyi , in Malaysia they have Anwar, Hun Sen has problem on his own too ... even in Singapore , they talk about an opposition party ! Definitely Abhi will find a lot of support during the next Asean meeting

Am I reading well??

Taksin = Aung San Su Kyi?????

This comparison is simply an insult to human intelligence.

[justanothercybertosser]

It is a futile point to state that his popularity is now "on the wane" when we have no statistics to back this up

There are indicators of country's mood that can be seen even without clear statistics, and they all point to his waning popularity.

That is utter nonsense.

Yeah, things like by-election results, people talking, media pandits assessments.

That is nonsense. Your out of the blue statement to the contrary should be taken as a fact, though. If anyone asks - some dude on the Inernet called cybertosser told me.

By-election results have not shown the waning popularity of Thaksin, as he has not contested them.

"People talking" is hearsay.

Media Pundit's assessments depend here in Thailand on which political camp they belong to.

We talk about Thaksin's popularity, and not of the parties that came after TRT/PPP ouster. Is that so difficult to understand that there is a difference?

[justanothercybertosser]

Woman Attacked by Police (with exploding tear gas) Still dead.

And according to the latest results of the police investigation it appears that C-4 traces have been found on her shirt, which means that she might have been killed by explosives she carried.

[jdinasia]

Saddam was hanged for having ordered the deaths of less people than were killed in the war on drugs

You betcha

And Santa Claus was spotted in Baghdad last Christmas wearing a G-string.

ummmm unless you are wearing a tin-hat and don't think that they hung him ......

Saddam Hussein has been convicted of crimes against humanity and sentenced to death by hanging.

The former Iraqi leader was convicted over the killing of 148 people in the mainly Shia town of Dujail following an assassination attempt on him in 1982

.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6117910.stm

I actually thought it was about 500 .. but apparently it was only 148 ... makes you wonder doesn't it?

[Ijustwannateach]

A certain number of flame-quoting posts as well as a certain number of posts speculative about the identities of other posters have been removed. I strongly suggest that members on this thread stick to the topic like glue; if you feel there is bad business afoot, contact a mod or use the report function.

[Koo82]

Abhisit can relax now. The reds will remain only tonight in front of Government House. They won't protest at the ASEAN Summit.

Edited February 26, 2009 by Koo82

[sriracha john]

The first Rajamagala rally saw some 40-50-70 thousand people, they haven't been able to match that again, and a thousand doing govt blockade does look like a bad turnout. It's completely ineffective and I won't be surprised if protesters lose enthusiasm even further.

Restoring 1997 const is legally impossible, it's a non-starter, unless reds want a coup themselves, but hold on - aren't they against coups on principle?

Kosit hasn't done anything while in office, and he vowed to step down if police names him on the list of people charged with airport blockade. Come on, who really believes that reds will go home and disappear if Abhisit simply removes Kosit from his cabinet? That's why he stopped listening to them long time ago.

Calling for fresh elections is reasonable on itself, but coupled together with "restore 1997 const" it becomes one big confusion. Should they discard the current consitution first? Then elections would be mandatory, no need to put it on the list of demands. Should they run elections under current constitution - then why demand to throw it away?

The idiots don't know what they want, it's a child's tantrum, nothing more.

Thai anti-government leaders give up four political demands

BANGKOK, Feb. 26 (Xinhua) -- Core leaders of the Thai anti-government protesters Thursday night announced that they gave up their earlier four political demands and from now they will focus only on attempts to topple the Abhisit Vejjaiva-led government.

The anti-government protesters, or the red-shirted people, who have been led by the United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD), started gathering on Tuesday morning at Sanam Luang in central Bangkok and later marched peacefully to the Government House and have remained there from Tuesday night.

The UDD group's four political demands were earlier announced included dismissing Foreign Minister Kasit, prosecuting the People's Alliance for Democracy's (PAD) leaders for shutting down two Bangkok airports late last year, reinstating the 1997 Constitution, and dissolving the House of Representatives.

[jdinasia]

Didn't they (the reds) give a 15 day ULTIMATUM a few weeks ago?

[sriracha john]

The 4 demands were laid down on Feb. 1st... with a 15-day deadline...

Government rejects UDD demands

Deputy PM Suthep Thaugsuban on Sunday dismissed an ultimatum by protesters who demanded the government step down by Feb 15. Mr Suthep said that supporters of ousted premier Thaksin were free to demonstrate again, but insisted the new Democrat Party-led government would stay in office. "This is not the time for the dissolution of parliament," he told reporters. "People want the government to go ahead with administering the country." Protest leaders say they will return to the streets in 15 days unless Foreign Minister Kasit Piromya and other figures linked to the People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) airport blockade last year are prosecuted. They also called for the dissolution of parliament, new elections and the reinstatement of the 1997 constitution. "The demand to bring back the 1997 constitution within 15 days, it is impossible," said Suthep.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/1361...cts-udd-demands

=========================================================

more of the same typical Red Shirt well-thought-out thinking...

[Journalist]

If they are no longer asserting that the PAD's activities connected to the airport were wrong and should be punished.......

read between the lines people.....

[sriracha john]

What are they going to charge Kasit with? Speaking on the stage?

Kasit not among 21 PAD leaders to face arrest warrants

Foreign Minister Kasit Piromya will not face an arrest warrant in the case related to the besieging of Parliament on October 7, deputy metropolitan police chief Pol Maj-Gen Amnuay Nimmano said Thursday.

Amnuay said the investigative team had finished reviewing the case and had sent it for a review by the Royal Thai Police.

He said Kasit was not involved in the besieging of the Parliament so police would not seek an arrest warrant against him in the case.

But the 21 others would face an arrest for inciting violence and leading the people to block MPs and senators from entering and leaving Parliament.

Amnuay said investigators had not yet finished investigations of the cases of the Government House and airport seizures.

- The Nation / 2009-02-26

Edited February 26, 2009 by sriracha john

[Plus]

And according to the latest results of the police investigation it appears that C-4 traces have been found on her shirt, which means that she might have been killed by explosives she carried.

If she had been killed by C4 exlosion there would be a lot more evidence than traces on her shirt.

Her injuries were consistent with being hit by a tear gas canister, not C4 blowing up in her bag.