If Trump is re-elected what does it say about the I.Q of the average American?

[Ijustwannateach]

Hmmm... in some ways, I think the *gender* orientation is often a bigger determining factor than sexual orientation. For example, in choosing a school director- in many public schools this is done by a vote of relevant qualified teachers of a certain civil service level. I don't think that it would matter to the voters (other teachers) if the candidates were gay or not- in fact, there is a huge population of gay and lesbian teachers. What would matter much, much more is if the candidates seemed to be powerful, respected, dominant personalities among their colleagues (and of course, well-liked). I have seen many school directors that could potentially have been gay men or lesbian women, but none that were 'femme,' 'queeny,' etc. I'm not saying that's necessarily what's best, but it seems to be what they are selecting for: alpha male quality, whether in a straight or gay man or woman.

From what I'm aware of in Thai discussions of sexuality- and how familiar does this sound to those of us from English speaking countries- there is a certain amount of internal disagreement about the whole 'butch/femme' thing, especially among gay men.

[jdinasia]

hmmm hiring folks with good people skills and strong personalities as a director? Who'd a thunk it?

I honestly don't know about that one way or the other. Many of my friends are pretty "camp" with their friends and the epitome of outward professional demeanor the rest of the time. Since I rarely see them at work it makes it hard for me to feel like I have enough knowledge to comment from. After all I don't spend ANY time thinking about people's sexuality in my day to day ramblings through life.

[Ijustwannateach]

^Maybe you should spend more time thinking about it- the Thais I know certainly do, and I kinda find it fun myself. ('I wonder if that guy who smiled at me is gay or if he just wants to be friendly and smile at the foreign guy?') Fun is good!

The most important thing (about the choices of directors) is that they represent the public face of the school. So to that extent, the types of persons selected show a favoured position for a certain personality type in conservative sectors of Thailand. The point I was trying to make is that this is more of a gender issue than a sexual orientation one, so in fact it supports your own position.

[PeaceBlondie]

Sorry to interrupt, but before I go to bed, my browser still has this statement which was just posted on the Shinawatra children thread.

...He is as gay as a rainbow-colored fruitcake in a Fire Island bakery window during Pride Week. And won't admit it.

[aeon]

I heard from a friend that being openly gay can be a little hard to get high positions in public offices, but I think is not completely true, I think can be a popular myth, but this is my perception of things.

Well for those who think that till not long ago there were laws against sodomy, I can say that before in thailand there were also laws against sodomy to women, but not to men.

Because homosexuality, differently from the west, was not believed to be a mental disorder.

I think here homosexuals are more accepted by society, maybe for less strict religious beliefs (not like christians) or also for the culture of not making anyone embarassed, there is more tollerance.

[Steve2UK]

BURNING ISSUES

Homophobic attacks by any groups must be condemned

By Pravit Rojanaphruk

The Nation

Published on February 26, 2009

Last Saturday's threat of violence against the Chiang Mai Gay Pride parade by the red-shirt pro-Thaksin Shinawatra "Rak Chiang Mai 51" group was not just deplorable but also a reminder that homosexuals have become silent victims to the on-going political conflict - and not just by red shirts but by the yellow shirt People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) as well.

Homophobia has been used as a political tool by key elements in both camps on different occasions, casting doubt on how democratic and pluralistic some of these people truly are.

The Rak Chiang Mai 51 group verbally attacked Gay Pride organisers on Saturday, forcing them to dismantle their stage in a public area. The Nation quoted red-shirt group leader Petchawat Wattanapongsiri, claiming to speak on behalf of Chiang Mai residents, saying: "Chiang Mai people cannot accept this and will stop the parade by all means, even [with] violence."

The incident underlined not just homophobia but also fear of difference, of people who have different identities or beliefs.

It's fairly well-known that on various websites, some red-shirt members have been attacking one very senior retired general whom they accuse of being behind the September 2006 coup, derogatorily referring to him as "an old gay" or "old eunuch".

Ironically, their political opponent,the PAD, is little different when it comes to using homophobia as a political tool.

Just days before the threat of violence against the gay parade, ASTV-Manager daily newspapers, the mouthpiece of the PAD, ran a political cartoon depicting various leaders of the red-shirt Democratic Alliance Against Dictatorship (DAAD) dressed as gays.

Only one man stood in the middle, Chulalongkorn University political scientist Ji Ungparkorn ,who earlier fled the country to escape a lese majeste charge and left behind a pro-republican and pro-socialist manifesto. The cartoon depicted others, including Thaksin, Weng Tojirakarn, Somchai Wongsawat, Nattawut Saigua and more, as gay - as people who do not accept their supposedly real republican political ideology.

It's also well known that the same papers have time and again referred to DAAD leader Jakrapob Penkair in a derogatory way as gay, and made fun of it.

Homophobia, and this fear of diverse identity and of people who do not conform to the notion of what is good and acceptable, are detrimental to ensuring a pluralistic and democratic society. The red-shirt pro-Thaksin DAAD should note that the PAD's claim in opposing Thaksin by all means is based on their belief that Thaksin is "bad" and "unacceptable" too.

If homosexuals in Thailand are to be verbally abused as people who cannot accept the truth of their gender orientation, then the blame must be on the society at large which continues to discriminate, distrust or even hate them and has forced some to remain in the closet.

Gay and non-gay people who stand by the right of people with different gender identity should roundly condemn these people in both red and yellow camps. ASTV-Manager Daily ought to be ashamed as it claims, as a media outlet, to be a beacon of light for Thai society. DAAD leaders should issue an unreserved apology and vow to respect the gender rights of others. The National Human Rights Commission shouldn't keep silent about such blatant violations by both parties.

The two groups may claim to be fighting for democracy, but their actions, when it comes to treatment of gender issue, is dictatorial and constitutes a clear threat to a plural and democratic society. They must be made aware that they're making a farce of themselves because no society which discriminates and shuts out the voices of those with a different opinion and identity, gay or otherwise, can ever call itself a genuine democracy.

http://nationmultimedia.com/2009/02/26/pol...cs_30096659.php

[endure]

Posting the same message into multiple threads/fora is discouraged.

This post does not refer to Stever2UK's post immediately above but to another post, now deleted.

[jdinasia]

If it made a case for discrimination (particularly systemic discrimination) it would be welcome here imho.

But when it's just someone crying about a political cartoon that used irony ... well.....

[Steve2UK]

Posting the same message into multiple threads/fora is discouraged.

At whom is this directed?

[tiza]

BURNING ISSUES

Homophobic attacks by any groups must be condemned

By Pravit Rojanaphruk

The Nation

Published on February 26, 2009

Last Saturday's threat of violence against the Chiang Mai Gay Pride parade by the red-shirt pro-Thaksin Shinawatra "Rak Chiang Mai 51" group was not just deplorable but also a reminder that homosexuals have become silent victims to the on-going political conflict - and not just by red shirts but by the yellow shirt People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) as well.

Homophobia has been used as a political tool by key elements in both camps on different occasions, casting doubt on how democratic and pluralistic some of these people truly are.

The Rak Chiang Mai 51 group verbally attacked Gay Pride organisers on Saturday, forcing them to dismantle their stage in a public area. The Nation quoted red-shirt group leader Petchawat Wattanapongsiri, claiming to speak on behalf of Chiang Mai residents, saying: "Chiang Mai people cannot accept this and will stop the parade by all means, even [with] violence."

The incident underlined not just homophobia but also fear of difference, of people who have different identities or beliefs.

It's fairly well-known that on various websites, some red-shirt members have been attacking one very senior retired general whom they accuse of being behind the September 2006 coup, derogatorily referring to him as "an old gay" or "old eunuch".

Ironically, their political opponent,the PAD, is little different when it comes to using homophobia as a political tool.

Just days before the threat of violence against the gay parade, ASTV-Manager daily newspapers, the mouthpiece of the PAD, ran a political cartoon depicting various leaders of the red-shirt Democratic Alliance Against Dictatorship (DAAD) dressed as gays.

Only one man stood in the middle, Chulalongkorn University political scientist Ji Ungparkorn ,who earlier fled the country to escape a lese majeste charge and left behind a pro-republican and pro-socialist manifesto. The cartoon depicted others, including Thaksin, Weng Tojirakarn, Somchai Wongsawat, Nattawut Saigua and more, as gay - as people who do not accept their supposedly real republican political ideology.

It's also well known that the same papers have time and again referred to DAAD leader Jakrapob Penkair in a derogatory way as gay, and made fun of it.

Homophobia, and this fear of diverse identity and of people who do not conform to the notion of what is good and acceptable, are detrimental to ensuring a pluralistic and democratic society. The red-shirt pro-Thaksin DAAD should note that the PAD's claim in opposing Thaksin by all means is based on their belief that Thaksin is "bad" and "unacceptable" too.

If homosexuals in Thailand are to be verbally abused as people who cannot accept the truth of their gender orientation, then the blame must be on the society at large which continues to discriminate, distrust or even hate them and has forced some to remain in the closet.

Gay and non-gay people who stand by the right of people with different gender identity should roundly condemn these people in both red and yellow camps. ASTV-Manager Daily ought to be ashamed as it claims, as a media outlet, to be a beacon of light for Thai society. DAAD leaders should issue an unreserved apology and vow to respect the gender rights of others. The National Human Rights Commission shouldn't keep silent about such blatant violations by both parties.

The two groups may claim to be fighting for democracy, but their actions, when it comes to treatment of gender issue, is dictatorial and constitutes a clear threat to a plural and democratic society. They must be made aware that they're making a farce of themselves because no society which discriminates and shuts out the voices of those with a different opinion and identity, gay or otherwise, can ever call itself a genuine democracy.

http://nationmultimedia.com/2009/02/26/pol...cs_30096659.php

Thanks for the article Steve2UK

It's so sad to see both groups are unfriendly to LGBT society. Someone needs to create a Pink/Rainbow Shirt Group and call it QAD Queer Alliance of Democracy

[jdinasia]

Tiza,

Have you seen the political satire cartoon described above? It was irony at it's best and not a shot at gay people (imho)

[Jingthing]

Yes, the foreigner understands the Thai content better than the Thai commentator. Wonders never cease.

It's also well known that the same papers have time and again referred to DAAD leader Jakrapob Penkair in a derogatory way as gay, and made fun of it.

Edited February 28, 2009 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Just a test to see where your focus of attention is centered, you both win and lose. Although it may appear that way, this isn't about a pissing match, its about the truth.

Gay Thais are POORLY SERVED by a farang who sees things ONE WAY no matter what the evidence, and the way he sees it is that there is no discrimination against Thai gays in Thailand, That is a BIG LIE.

Edited February 28, 2009 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

From the same poster who previously asserted that homosexual sex was never criminalized in Thailand. Another falsehood based on ignorance. OK, I quit again. Some people's strange agenda, which does NO FAVORS to gay Thais, is set in stone. Let it stew and calcify and people of reason can see it for what it is.

[chrisyork]

I thought the GloabalGayz article gives quite a balanced view of the situation - but it is possible to read it through a Western perspective and get the wrong impression of it. To clarify. It seems to me that the issue in Thailand is not so much discrimination AGAINST gays as discrimination FOR heterosexuals. ie there is huge pressure to marry well, have lots of kids, honour and support the family etc. No one seems to have a fundamental problem with people indulging in gay sex - but they are very focused indeed on promoting conventional family units. This probably owes its basis to the lack of a welfare state. This means that the older generation are dependent on their youngsters taking care of them financially and physically in old age. So immediate self interest is at work in encouraging their children to marry plus there is natural parental concern for the offspring's future prospects when they get to be old.

Westerners tend to get a free ride from these pressures because they are perceived as being wealthy enough to escape the old age poverty trap. It's therefore easy to miss the huge significance of them for native Thais.

As to office and schoolyard gossip. Yes of course. But then the nature of gossip is to focus on difference. I don't think gays get any worse treatment than say Goths or people with any other sort of unusual interest.

On a personal basis my experience is that Thai males have no problem interacting with obvious gays in public. We have a distant family member who is well into Katoe territory - makeup, effeminant mannerisms etc. But when seen at public parties eg at the Wat he is the centre of attention for even the trendiest and most masculine family memebers. It must help that he is a hulking bloke and clearly very strong and he is also known to "have a good head" in the sense of being sensible and honest and caring. Older family members worry for him though at what will happen when he gets older and has no family. You could see this as discrimination - or you could see this as parental type concern for hid future well being.

For myself i seem to have accidentally hit on what Thais regard as the ideal arrangement for a gay couple - my partner is married and has children with his wife - and we all live together. This seems to be generally applauded as an ideal sensible solution!! Now you could hardly expect me to accuse Thais of discrimination with a reaction like that!

Chris

[tiza]

Tiza,

Have you seen the political satire cartoon described above? It was irony at it's best and not a shot at gay people (imho)

Hi JD, I haven't seen it yet. Where can I see it?

By the way, It just came across my mind. I have done a small research on gay rights and media censorship a few years back. The fact is that some gay-related scenes on a cable tv has been deleted. If you've seen Beautiful Thing, the scene where the boys were kissing was deleted. Not only that, the scene in Billy Elliot where he was kissed on the cheek goodbye from his friend before he left for ballet school was also deleted out. Now I don't know the real authority of censorship so it could be Thailand or either South East Asia problem.

[jdinasia]

Really? We have those movies (with Thai subtitles and nothing was deleted) do you have legit copies or copies found along Silom/Pantip?

[jdinasia]

BTW --- I do agree with Chris on something else he said. For the most part I don't (nor do my Thai friends) encounter discrimination against gays but there is a marked bias for str8 men (Thailand has very strong elements of the male dominated 'good ole boy' syndrome!)

[Steve2UK]

Where can I see it?

A cartoon of such exquisite non-homophobic irony (allegedly) - I'm keen to admire it myself.

Curious that the cartoon was the only thing noted in such a heavyweight (for The Nation) article on the subject. Well, actually - not curious at all. Just convenient.

[tiza]

Really? We have those movies (with Thai subtitles and nothing was deleted) do you have legit copies or copies found along Silom/Pantip?

I have those movies too but I don't have the version that they showed on that cable tv. But they're my favorite movies and i can guarantee that those scenes are completely all gone. Other gay kissing scenes have been also deleted. That was 3-4 years ago. I can't say it for the past few years though, I haven't been watching tv that much.

But you know this Thai soap series on channel 9 called รักแปดพันเก้า there's this gay couple in the plot. And a person from a ministry made it such a big deal that this would lead children to copy gay behaviours :-(... While all that those boys do was holding hand.

Gay stereotypes appear a lot in Thai media but when it comes to serious matter like gay having a relationship, some people seem to be unable to take it. Can we say there's a bit of discrimination towards LBGT in media?

[jdinasia]

Hmmm

someone posted a link to story/editorial from the BP in a different thread that was interesting and possibly to the topic.

The point is: The red-shirt people, operating under an outdated premise that has already changed, ended up committing an act of narrow-minded bigotry that resulted in condemnation by society and the alienation of millions and millions of Thai homosexuals.

This is 2009, the premise of the gay issue has changed.

Reality: There is arguably no country in the world gayer than Thailand.

source: http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/1252...ory-gay-reality

[jdinasia]

Tiza, I agree that there are some very very ODD issues with censorship in Thailand. (pixilating cigarettes or guns to heads etc) and that the issues of showing gay people in a good light is very new here in the movie/television industries.

But we have had some major GAY movies released here that certainly were not so heavily censored What was it ... "Thai Puean?" BKK Lovestory?

I think the issues with the 2 that you mentioned was the age of the people in question (which really is bogus, pretending there are not gay teens is silly AND irresponsible!!)

[dukkha]

Tiza, I agree that there are some very very ODD issues with censorship in Thailand. (pixilating cigarettes or guns to heads etc) and that the issues of showing gay people in a good light is very new here in the movie/television industries.

But we have had some major GAY movies released here that certainly were not so heavily censored What was it ... "Thai Puean?" BKK Lovestory?

I think the issues with the 2 that you mentioned was the age of the people in question (which really is bogus, pretending there are not gay teens is silly AND irresponsible!!)

As Profesor Peter Jackson, Australian Academic, once said in his book, Dear Uncle Goh,Thai Homosexuality, dont be mislead, the pressure is on for thai men to reproduce, there may not be a great need for a gay liberation movemment however, and thailand is not the gay paradise that many believe it to be....there is discrimination at every level...but we as westerners have a rather skewed view of the gender issues that are related to Thai Homosexuality...this is, thai culture, a very conservative sexual culture and beyond Silom etc, there is a real world out there..thai cultue may have a blurred view of it all, but do not be mistaken, it is difficult for thai men to come out..you just have to go to cam frog and see all the thai males masturbating but few of them are willing to show their face publicly, sure you can see as much cok as you want but anonimity is the de riguer of these gay men...closets are not open and most thai men do not wish their identities to be revealed even though gay thai men are represented on public TV stations etc...gay thai men who have cooking and othe programs seem to be able to interact in some way...as Professor Jackson so accurately points out, for thais sex is not much different from playing badminton, it is an activity, not filled with the hideous guilt that western culture has imposed upon us...it is another reason that I have chosen as a farang to live in such a culture...no spilt guilt...no god bothering assumptions...for thais if it feels good then do it...the west has had it wrong for so long, before we imposed linguistic jingoisms such as top and bottom, thais just wanted to have sex... pleasure is not a difficult notion for thai people..we come with the baggage of western guilt in all areas of sexuality...why do you think so many western men are attracted to this culture, especially the notion that older men are not attractive, for thais this does not impinge on theri psyche..they do not see an old body as something to be repelled by, nor is it a corruptive notion...thai men are not concerned about you age, they are more interested in what sort of decent peron you might be, how refreshing is this??...as an older gay western man how often do we encounter this kind of acceptance in the west, not often in my experience...but I have gone on enough..to each their own, and my observance is that the majority of gay men prefer men of their own age group, I may be wrong, as I often am, thank you PB...but it seems that age differences are not an issue in this culture, or for that matter,most asian cutltures..just had lunch with a wonderful british emeritus professor of English, 78, whose lover is a 30 year old Indian Bollywood film star and the comfort I observed between them both made me proud to be an older gay man in Asia...forget your mantras of the 'WALLET'...not interested in such comments....we are both giving the other something we need...leave it at that... Dukkha

[twschw]

I would think that hiding ones face whilst masterbating online would not be that unusual, hardly a confirmation of discrimination in Thailand.

[dukkha]

I would think that hiding ones face whilst masterbating online would not be that unusual, hardly a confirmation of discrimination in Thailand.

Correct Sir...

[Ijustwannateach]

Actually, though I do meet Thai guys who genuinely do want to date older men exclusively, much more often they do not. Most of them are not so different from normal gay guys everywhere. I would go as far as saying that they are not so hung up on "types," including age as part of "type."

Your mileage may vary.