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Discrimination/homophobia In Thailand


jdinasia

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Does anyone have any real examples of systemic discrimination against gay people in Thailand?

I have spent a few evenings lately talking with friends about this topic and they can (with a little prompting) cite a few incidences of what might be discrimination but nothing systemic.

Does anyone have any clear, unambiguous, examples of discrimination that is systemic?

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As far as I can tell, the big issues are the way the military treats transgenders (not fully covered or accurate in this paste) and lack of equal marriage civil rights. Sodomy was a criminal act way back in 1956 in Thailand so there is a historic aspect to the treatment of homosexual sex but that is long ago:

From wiki

Legal status

Sodomy was decriminalized in Thailand in 1956.[1] In 2002, homosexuality was no longer considered to be a mental problem or disease in Thai law.

Gays and transsexuals have been allowed to join the armed forces since 2005. Prior to this, Thailand inducted all young men except gays and transsexuals, who have been barred from serving under the "mental disorder" exemption of 1954.

[edit] Protection based on sexual orientation in law

There are no laws against gays or lesbians in Thailand. However, there are some Buddhist laws that prohibit openly gay men to enter monkhood. Transsexuals (known as Kathoey) are imbued in Thai culture via television, and cabaret shows, such as the Alcazar Theatre in Pattaya.

[edit] Recognition of same-sex couples

The news of Elton John's civil partnership brought about criticism of the government from the Thai gay community, for the lack of same-sex marriages, civil unions or domestic partnerships. Despite this lack or recognition, many Thai gay and lesbian couples are open about their sexuality in public, especially in urban centres such as Bangkok, and westernized areas such as Phuket and Pattaya.

Here is a website of a Thai gay activist organization actively working to further full civil rights for gays in Thailand. If things were perfect for Thai gays, why does this exist?

http://www.anjaree.net/

Actually this link details many current and historical issues most of us probably never thought about, for Thai gays in Thailand, so again, superficial impressions that Thailand is a paradise for Thai gays and transgenders are simply not accurate:

http://www.globalgayz.com/g-thailand07-rights.html

Edited by Jingthing
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So .. no same sex-marraige

(but apparently no real need for it either)

(sorry but transgender is a separate issue .....)

Hardly!

I am sorry I may have jumped the gun in saying it was mostly army and marriage rights. You can exclude transgendered but to most of the Thai public I would assert there is no such mental separation. This text refers to the proposed constitutional changes and hoped for legal changes that I believe DID NOT OCCUR.

Obviously, the issues that face Thai gays are VERY DIFFERENT than the issues facing gays from Anglo societies. But that does not mean they do not have issues.

http://www.globalgayz.com/g-thailand07-rights.html

Kittinan Tharamatat from Fah Si Roong (Rainbow Sky), a gay rights advocacy group, said that if the new charter recognises diverse sexuality and mandates equal rights for the gay community, various other, discriminatory laws will also have to be amended.

Rape laws, which currently protect only female victims, for example, will have to be amended to protect men, homosexuals and the trans-gendered too. At present, raping boys or men is legally considered to be only sexual molestation, which carries lighter punishment than that of rape. ''Rapists, regardless of the gender of their victims, are all similar animals from hel_l, so they deserve the same punishment,'' he said.

“ The law, he added, must also be subsequently amended to legalise same- sex marriage, thus allowing homosexual partners to have inheritance rights. At present, when one of the partners dies, his or her money and other assets go to the family of the deceased.

“ Job discrimination against homosexuals and the trans-gendered will also become illegal if the new constitution addresses the issue, he added. ''Right now we, the trans-gendered, have a very limited work choice. The constitutional change will help protect us against this discrimination,'' said Tanyarat Jirapatpakorn, Miss Tiffany Universe 2007, a trans-sexual beauty queen.

“ Meanwhile, Chantalak Raksayoo of the Sapan Group stressed how important it was for the constitution to clearly state a specific timeframe for legal amendments to recognise diverse sexuality and gay rights. ''Otherwise such rights will exist only on paper,'' she said.

“ According to Ms Anjana, half of young people who attempted suicide in Thailand were homosexuals and trans-gendered people who could not put up with severe pressure and condemnation from their own families and society.

“ In addition to legal changes, Prof Suporn Koetwang, a noted public health expert, called for better public education to rein in homophobia among the general public.

“ Sawing Tan-oot, a member of the National Legislative Assembly (NLA) and the Constitution Drafting Assembly, will propose the clause on gay rights be included in the draft charter. But many NLA members still do not understand the concepts of gender and diverse sexuality, he said.

Edited by Jingthing
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I believe you should be including links to your quoted material

Rape law is a gender issue.

Suicide? I would like to see that statistic in print somewhere. I don't doubt that teen suicide is higher in gay youth and even more so in youth with gender dysphoria.

Inheritance is easily dealt with. (My partner gets my stuff in Thailand should something happen to me, he has a will too)

You do seem to be quoting some work that some friends were working on just after the coup. No doubt like in the instance of the rape laws and many other laws in Thailand there are many gender related issues that need to be worked on.

edit --- as far as excluding TG's from the discussion ... let me quote you in the Pattaya Ladyboy Poll

I don't think about them. Well, anymore than I think about the tailor touts, why think about what you aren't interested in? What I don't understand is why they are often employed at gay establishments as if the management didn't get the message that gay males are interested in males, not females
Edited by jdinasia
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You seem to want to bend over backwards to deny there are issues for Thai gays. I supplied some linked Thai sources that some Thai people believe there are issues. Take it or leave it, I am leaving this thread. You have an agenda and I find it bizarre and not worthy of more of my time. If others want to pipe in, so be it.

As a good bye message, you have previously asserted that I am trying to export western gay issues onto Thais in a colonial way. I am not trying to do anything but honor the experience of our Thai brothers. Some might say a characterization of Thais as happy go lucky smiling brown skinned natives in a perfect paradise is the REAL colonial vision.

In searching for human rights activity in Thailand it’s easy to be distracted by the sexy flash and booming discos of Bangkok, Pattaya, Phuket and Chiang Mai, which to many visitors and reporters appear to present an exciting ‘liberated’ face of homosexuality in Thailand.

However, the reality is quite different the longer one stays or settles in Thailand, or becomes involved in an intimate relationship with a Thai man or woman. A foreigner (farang) soon understands something quite different: the conservative pale that hangs over the lives of LGBT citizens and which overshadows by far the immediate short-lived neon of the nights.

http://www.globalgayz.com/g-thailand07-rights.html

Edited by Jingthing
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Interesting point you raised here JD. I agree with you that there's no systematic discrimination against people.

I am quite concerned with gay people who work in governmental sector though. It seemed to me that all the higher positions are mostly married or closeted gay. A good example is a former prime minister who everyone knows of the fact of him being gay. It seems to me that they apply the rule Dont ask dont tell secretly here.

I submit that there's no substancial discrimination but it doesn't mean that we don't need GLBT rights protection or legislation. From my experience, thai gay students are safe physically but they are abused by words from teachers and other students all the time.

For inheritance issue, straight couples can prove to the court the fact that they live as couples, even without registration, to claim rights to inheritance. Gay couples don't have the same rights at the moment

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I think one could argue there is widespread 'straight privilege' here just as there is in any country where one 'assumes' another person is straight until proven otherwise- and this would have subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) consequences in terms of encouraging some people to stay in the closet, or in terms of straight types with families being preferred for certain types of career positions. It's systemic in terms of privileging straight men, in the same way that the system makes women, in certain respects, 2nd class citizens. That these effects are less pronounced here than in other countries, doesn't mean they don't exist.

It is not systemic in the sense of being enshrined in law, but then there are few protections offered or enforced, either. The solution in some countries has been civil rights law- one can argue if that has been the right or the effective solution for those other countries, but it is a recognition that the problem needed addressing at a government level. I'm not saying that would be the best solution for Thailand, but clearly there is still a privilege effect for straight men compared to women or gay men.

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Interesting point you raised here JD. I agree with you that there's no systematic discrimination against people.

I am quite concerned with gay people who work in governmental sector though. It seemed to me that all the higher positions are mostly married or closeted gay. A good example is a former prime minister who everyone knows of the fact of him being gay. It seems to me that they apply the rule Dont ask dont tell secretly here.

I submit that there's no substancial discrimination but it doesn't mean that we don't need GLBT rights protection or legislation. From my experience, thai gay students are safe physically but they are abused by words from teachers and other students all the time.

For inheritance issue, straight couples can prove to the court the fact that they live as couples, even without registration, to claim rights to inheritance. Gay couples don't have the same rights at the moment

I agree with everything you say ... but that former PM that currently has a very important position IS known by most people to be gay and has been for a long time to the best of my knowledge!

I also agree that things aren't perfect. They just aren't bad!

Tiza would you agree that most of the issues with growing up gay in Thailand have little to do with the LAW and more to do with standard Thai family life? The expectation to marry etc even if you are gay?

Tiza is one of the few Thai people I know that has been active with any equality movement in Thailand at all.

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Ijustwanna ---

I don't know that I agree with your assertions. (Not that they are wrong at all ... in fact I think they are right BUT that they just don't come into play.)

The base assumption is that you are Str8 if you are male. That assumption tends to be carried along even in the presence of information that would normally have people thinking you are gay. It is only when someone makes it a public issue that they are gay that I think the results you seem to be suggesting as normal come into play.

I do agree that gender issues are a significant problem in Thailand in many ways and that when push comes to shove ... being OPENLY gay can relegate a person into the same type of box that being a woman does to them.

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Ijustwanna ---

I don't know that I agree with your assertions. (Not that they are wrong at all ... in fact I think they are right BUT that they just don't come into play.)

The base assumption is that you are Str8 if you are male. That assumption tends to be carried along even in the presence of information that would normally have people thinking you are gay. It is only when someone makes it a public issue that they are gay that I think the results you seem to be suggesting as normal come into play.

I do agree that gender issues are a significant problem in Thailand in many ways and that when push comes to shove ... being OPENLY gay can relegate a person into the same type of box that being a woman does to them.

Still trying to find out how to use this forum software... Anyway, I'm always mistaken for being straight if people don't know me. I don't blame them. I used to have a straight friend who was mistaken for being gay when we went together to functions where people knew me.

Anyway, where people know me beyond the usual business networking, they know I am not straight. That includes customers, suppliers, and even my boyfy's family, who is Thai-Chinese and a bit on the waelthy side. However, they are Bangkok people, which makes a difference. It might be more difficult in other provinces. Personally, I have never expereinced a society more open than the Thais.

Comparing between being a foreigner in Thailand and being a gay person, I think being a foreigner is the bigger problem.

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I'm Thai. We are easy people!

No strict rules/regulations to follow.

There's ABSOLUTEly NO [non-systematic] discrimination in school/workplace or even in a neighborhood.

Eventho theres systemic discrimination against homo, Thais wouldn't give a shit.

Everything here is not like in the western world.

Almost everything is a bit chaotic, messy, easy...

We trade off Law/Rules&Regulations/Well-behaved,disciplined citizens for a LAZy/EasY lifestyle.

So I think Bangkok is one of the Gay Mecca of the world... and gay people are free to do anything as much as the straights are in This Easy country.

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I'm Thai. We are easy people!

No strict rules/regulations to follow.

There's ABSOLUTEly NO [non-systematic] discrimination in school/workplace or even in a neighborhood.

Eventho theres systemic discrimination against homo, Thais wouldn't give a shit.

Everything here is not like in the western world.

Almost everything is a bit chaotic, messy, easy...

We trade off Law/Rules&Regulations/Well-behaved,disciplined citizens for a LAZy/EasY lifestyle.

So I think Bangkok is one of the Gay Mecca of the world... and gay people are free to do anything as much as the straights are in This Easy country.

Sorry Lorlum, but I think you are deluded and just spouting cliches. Do you work for TAT?

I have worked in nearly a dozen Thai offices, and at every single one of them gays were very much singled out - with jokes about their sexuality an everyday occurence. And on many occassions, Thai co-workers would lean over to me and whisper, as though revealing a shocking secret, "he's gay".

Gays might not get beaten up on the streets every day, but I am 100% positive that they are singled out and mocked both behind their back and to their face.

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Ijustwanna ---

I don't know that I agree with your assertions. (Not that they are wrong at all ... in fact I think they are right BUT that they just don't come into play.)

The base assumption is that you are Str8 if you are male. That assumption tends to be carried along even in the presence of information that would normally have people thinking you are gay. It is only when someone makes it a public issue that they are gay that I think the results you seem to be suggesting as normal come into play.

I do agree that gender issues are a significant problem in Thailand in many ways and that when push comes to shove ... being OPENLY gay can relegate a person into the same type of box that being a woman does to them.

Still trying to find out how to use this forum software... Anyway, I'm always mistaken for being straight if people don't know me. I don't blame them. I used to have a straight friend who was mistaken for being gay when we went together to functions where people knew me.

Anyway, where people know me beyond the usual business networking, they know I am not straight. That includes customers, suppliers, and even my boyfy's family, who is Thai-Chinese and a bit on the waelthy side. However, they are Bangkok people, which makes a difference. It might be more difficult in other provinces. Personally, I have never expereinced a society more open than the Thais.

Comparing between being a foreigner in Thailand and being a gay person, I think being a foreigner is the bigger problem.

I would agree that being a foreigner is more of an issue than being gay (not a big issue at that, in every day life, but certainly more of an issue than being gay).

I have heard some foreigners complain about "looks" from Thais when traveling with a date, but I think they may be missing out on the more obvious fact in many cases that it isn't being gay that is the issue but instead it is being with a date that is significantly younger than them and thus being perceived (rightly or wrongly) as a sex-tourist/sex-pat.

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I'm Thai. We are easy people!

No strict rules/regulations to follow.

There's ABSOLUTEly NO [non-systematic] discrimination in school/workplace or even in a neighborhood.

Eventho theres systemic discrimination against homo, Thais wouldn't give a shit.

Everything here is not like in the western world.

Almost everything is a bit chaotic, messy, easy...

We trade off Law/Rules&Regulations/Well-behaved,disciplined citizens for a LAZy/EasY lifestyle.

So I think Bangkok is one of the Gay Mecca of the world... and gay people are free to do anything as much as the straights are in This Easy country.

Sorry Lorlum, but I think you are deluded and just spouting cliches. Do you work for TAT?

I have worked in nearly a dozen Thai offices, and at every single one of them gays were very much singled out - with jokes about their sexuality an everyday occurence. And on many occassions, Thai co-workers would lean over to me and whisper, as though revealing a shocking secret, "he's gay".

Gays might not get beaten up on the streets every day, but I am 100% positive that they are singled out and mocked both behind their back and to their face.

Yes

urbanized thai is not THAI in general

Yes : "I am 100% positive that they are singled out and mocked both behind their back and to their face."

It happens in every urbanized city and it's like we're verbally,mentally-abused. Physical abuse is nothing compare to mentally-abuse.

It also happens in almost every hospital in the world too.

Now Im in my late20s, I work in my private medical clinic and have a small group of closed friends. And I'm not heterophobic. But by the 2010, I gotta go back to the "str8world" for residency training.

what I learnt from med school is that u gotta have high self-esteem and less people = more happiness.

and in any mammal community [dolphin, apes, canine, Human], you got to act like you're strong, top, dominant and also can blend into the group ... u're not supposed to be at the bottom of the food chain.

only the strongest [physically,mentally,socially,spiritually : holistically] will survive.

plus "the look" is important, many of the gay attendings at my faculty are very attractive in his 30s/40s and they are not singled out or mocked by any nurses or medical students AT ALL. And they are even popular among nurses and female med students.

Also if you became a ตัวแม่ of gossip, then u won't be singled out :o:D :D :D :D

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Polecat ---- have you paid any attention to the level of standard office gossip? Everyone pretty much gets gossiped about :o (Do you have any idea what they say about you?)

Actually, I shudder to think what they say about me :D (No, I can understand enough)

The standard of gossip isn't the point - or, rather, it is exactly the point. I was merely responding to Lorlum's assertion that Thailand is this kind of mythical, all-accepting never-neverland where everybody is part of some big happy family. Which is patently not the case.

(However, having read his subsequent post I now realise that he is a complete space cadet)

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Polecat ---- have you paid any attention to the level of standard office gossip? Everyone pretty much gets gossiped about :o (Do you have any idea what they say about you?)

Actually, I shudder to think what they say about me :D (No, I can understand enough)

The standard of gossip isn't the point - or, rather, it is exactly the point. I was merely responding to Lorlum's assertion that Thailand is this kind of mythical, all-accepting never-neverland where everybody is part of some big happy family. Which is patently not the case.

(However, having read his subsequent post I now realise that he is a complete space cadet)

and my point is ... simply that gossip (particularly office gossip) is a given here and that though the gossip occurs it is usually not so vicious. It is just a national past-time. It would have to actually have real life repercussions in advancement etc before it becomes discrimination and would have to be pretty vile before it is homophobia (as opposed to the standard twittering about how fat that guy's wife is or who that other married guy has as a mia noi.)

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Obviously, the issues that face Thai gays are VERY DIFFERENT than the issues facing gays from Anglo societies. But that does not mean they do not have issues.

It's true that does not mean they do not have issues.

And to polecate : your glass is totally empty, you have a miserable childhood/highschool past and you are assertive grumpy caucasian gay man whos just moved to Thailand for a couple of years. Low self-esteem. You have histrionic trait. And you don't fit in with the people around you. Am I right?

if the answer is >50% YES then you need to change...

There are good and bad defense mechanisms... you should only use the good ones e.g. altruism, sublimation, humor,...

This is for you : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_mechanism

:o

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Me, I am the stupid old farang who does not speak Thai. So I taught with this govt. officer for a year, and he was the gay-est acting teacher I had ever seen. At the end of the school year, he brings his wife and baby to the staff room. Oh.

Then I had a stroke, and my Thai boyfriend took me to my cardiologist. It must have been a Friday, when my doctor wears Lanna traditional shirt, which was more frilly than usual, but I was not noticing. As the doctor prances out of the room, my partner leans over and whispers, "Katoey!. Oh.

Yes, there is social discrimination. But if a prancing sissy can make it through a cardiology residency, it can't be too bad.

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Me, I am the stupid old farang who does not speak Thai. So I taught with this govt. officer for a year, and he was the gay-est acting teacher I had ever seen. At the end of the school year, he brings his wife and baby to the staff room. Oh.

Then I had a stroke, and my Thai boyfriend took me to my cardiologist. It must have been a Friday, when my doctor wears Lanna traditional shirt, which was more frilly than usual, but I was not noticing. As the doctor prances out of the room, my partner leans over and whispers, "Katoey!. Oh.

Yes, there is social discrimination. But if a prancing sissy can make it through a cardiology residency, it can't be too bad.

I get what you are saying ... and I would even agree in some cases that there might be 'social discrimination' but your examples elude me! (commenting on someone's sexuality just doesn't seem discriminatory to me). Did your partner mean "gay" when he said Katoey, or did he mean ladyboy? (The words are often used interchangeably upcountry).

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jd, I agree my above comments were elusive. And up north here, I think katoey and gay are interchangeable. At least in my imaginary novel about the country of Xanta, those words are synonymous without being sin.

One point I am trying to make is that an established cardiologist at the biggest govt. hospital in northern Thailand obviously acted like a flaming gay man, and held onto his position.

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Things have even changed for TG's in Thailand over the past 11 years (but that is a separate discussion).

It is hard to make any argument for systemic discrimination in Thailand. If there was Gay marraige it would actually work well for some of us under 50 !

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Obviously, the issues that face Thai gays are VERY DIFFERENT than the issues facing gays from Anglo societies. But that does not mean they do not have issues.

It's true that does not mean they do not have issues.

And to polecate : your glass is totally empty, you have a miserable childhood/highschool past and you are assertive grumpy caucasian gay man whos just moved to Thailand for a couple of years. Low self-esteem. You have histrionic trait. And you don't fit in with the people around you. Am I right?

if the answer is >50% YES then you need to change...

There are good and bad defense mechanisms... you should only use the good ones e.g. altruism, sublimation, humor,...

This is for you : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_mechanism

:D

:o

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Interesting point you raised here JD. I agree with you that there's no systematic discrimination against people.

I am quite concerned with gay people who work in governmental sector though. It seemed to me that all the higher positions are mostly married or closeted gay. A good example is a former prime minister who everyone knows of the fact of him being gay. It seems to me that they apply the rule Dont ask dont tell secretly here.

I submit that there's no substancial discrimination but it doesn't mean that we don't need GLBT rights protection or legislation. From my experience, thai gay students are safe physically but they are abused by words from teachers and other students all the time.

For inheritance issue, straight couples can prove to the court the fact that they live as couples, even without registration, to claim rights to inheritance. Gay couples don't have the same rights at the moment

I agree with everything you say ... but that former PM that currently has a very important position IS known by most people to be gay and has been for a long time to the best of my knowledge!

I also agree that things aren't perfect. They just aren't bad!

Tiza would you agree that most of the issues with growing up gay in Thailand have little to do with the LAW and more to do with standard Thai family life? The expectation to marry etc even if you are gay?

I agree with you JD about the standard Thai family life expecting their children to marry. It's such a big problem for some of my friends especially those who 're the only male child. The Thai- Chinese gay sons should even be much more pressured. I think in general Thai family has a very strong influence towards its members. I know of some families that even dictate each of their children's future career.

The good thing is that it is very rare to hear that a gay teen is expelled out of their house once their parents find out they're gay. Actually I haven't heard of one. But how many people come out anyway? It's almost like we apply "don't ask don't tell" in the Thai society.

For the PM case ( and also the most famous pop singer you- know -who case), It's a bit of a shame that they don't start talking about their sexuality. Cuz behind them people started talking that these guys are so smart, intelligent, influential and talented. Yet they live hidden lives. I know that people know that they're anyway. Unless you express it, it makese being gay sound like a forbidden flaw to them, while it is not..

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From my experience of talking to gay guys about their families- either they were pretty obviously gay and their families realised it while they were still children- or they 'passed' as straight and lived/still live closeted lives. Then they have to deal with the marriage & career issues- Tiza, I know exactly what you're talking about, as I teach a number of young people whose parents put tremendous pressure on them to enter certain lifestyles or careers. It is a real tragedy when they are not suited for the things their parents want; especially as most of them make a genuine effort to please their families at first but then simply can't sustain it. I try to counsel their families to consider alternatives, but they can be.... well, stubborn and single-minded.

By far, the happier, more fulfilled-seeming guys are the ones who were identified as gay early on. Their families didn't always make that easy or pleasant for them, from what I can tell, but I also have never met any who said they were thrown out.

Jd, I don't know exactly what you're looking for in this discussion, but it might help if you define 'systemic.' If you mean 'government-legislated,' then you're pretty clearly correct (with the minor exception of a temporary law against gay teachers which was shot down years ago). If you mean 'culturally/socially habitual,' then things are less black and white, as gays, women, and other minorities still experience certain levels of prejudice in this and almost every other country.

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I agree Tiza,

Both about the Thai-Chinese family influences (and Thai Muslim as well). I would go so far as to say that the family culture is the overriding pressure on gay people here. I do know 2 people from very 'country' backgrounds that were not accepted at home after they came out and they left home young. (At least that is the story they tell, but they both have good connections with their families now, so those stories may just be an excuse for why they chose to be MB's)

I think that society at large in Thailand just doesn't care about my sexuality or yours or anybody else's. On a macro-level it just doesn't matter here. It does when you narrow things down a bit ... office gossip, family pressure etc.

There are several posts in this thread that show that being gay certainly doesn't have to interfere with anybody's career. I know friends that are openly gay and at the tops of their fields in several areas here in Thailand.

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IJWT ---

Systemic could be via legislation ... but it could also be things like we experienced in Denver in the dark ages. Police hanging out near gay bars and issuing tickets for jaywalking! Bars and gay venues being harassed (more than other places) etc.

I know of a few instances of minor 'harassment' in Thailand like the police holding the ID's of patrons of G-Star pub for after-hours drinking a few years back. (I wouldn't count the random raid of DJ as an issue considering the sheer volume of drugs that float around there and the relative scarcity of those raids ... and the fact that they raid str8 places more often)

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