Foreign Scholars Sign A Letter To Curb Lm Laws

[Plus]

Overseas scholars call for govt not to use lese majesty against people and websites

By Pravit Rojanaphruk

The Nation

Published on March 5, 2009

Fifty international scholars and public figures called on the government yesterday to stop lese majeste charges being laid and suppressive measures being used against people, websites and the peaceful expression of ideas.

Well-known international scholars such as Noam Chomsky, Stuart Hall, Immanuel Wallerstein plus public figures like Caroline Lucas, leader of the Green Party of England and Wales, Lord Eric Avebury, vice-chair of Britain's Parliamentary Human Rights Group, have signed a letter due to be submitted to Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva.

They call for reform of the lese majeste law to prevent "abuses" and to prevent further damage to the international reputation of Thailand and the monarch.

They urged the authorities to withdraw current lese majeste charges and to release people detained for expressing their ideas.

"The experiences of many countries have proven that only truth, transparency, civic discussion and the democratic process can turn conflict of ideas into innovative and peaceful change. Suppression of ideas does not solve anything, but is likely to do more harm than good for the monarchy," the letter says.

Thongchai Winichakul, professor of History at University of Wisconsin at Madison in the US, speaking via an Internet video link to Bangkok, claimed the law, with the surge of arrests in recent months, had created a climate of "fear and repression throughout Thai society".

"How long are we going to stand idly in this climate of fear," he asked, during an hour-long press conference at the Foreign Correspondents Club of Thailand. Only five Thai journalists attended the conference, during which Thongchai asked the media "please open up the debate".

Andrew Walker, a senior research fellow at the Australian National University in Canberra, another coordinator who spoke via the Internet-link said the law was not good for the monarchy or democracy.

He said he would encourage people to discuss the merit of the law.

Both denied any link to ousted and convicted former premier Thaksin Shinawatra. Thongchai insisted the letter was signed by scholars who "care" and "even love" Thailand.

He said he would welcome any Thai scholar to join and sign the petition, which will be handed to Abhisit late this month or in early April.

Later, the prime minister said his government would discuss the lese majeste law and whether it should be amended.

"We will discuss it next week," Abhisit said.

http://nationmultimedia.com/2009/03/05/pol...cs_30097210.php

[sassienie]

Why don`t these do gooders stop sticking their noses in when it`s not wanted?

I`m sure the Thai government can manage it`s own affairs without the advice of these Holier than thou self appointed martyrs

[dinthailand]

Why don`t these do gooders stop sticking their noses in when it`s not wanted?

I`m sure the Thai government can manage it`s own affairs without the advice of these Holier than thou self appointed martyrs

as you don't agree with them it's right that they can not express an opinion is it? and actually they are not martyrs they are very much alive!!

what is the source for the comment " not wanted" again, i assume your own view.

thais like the concept of real freedom and democracy and it is developing gradually. remember democracy is very young in this country.

[WaiWai]

Academics call for Thai monarchy law reform

Posted 4 hours 11 minutes ago

A group of academics has launched a campaign to reform tough laws protecting Thailand's widely revered monarchy amid a growing crackdown on alleged violators.

More than 50 foreign and local experts, including famed linguist Noam Chomsky, have signed a letter to be sent to new Thai Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva that says the law is being abused for political ends.

"How far are we going to stand idly under this climate of fear? The lese-majesty law has created the climate of fear," US-based academic Thongchai Winichakul said.

Lese-majesty, which in Thailand means insulting or defaming 81-year-old King Bhumibhol Adulyadej or any members of the royal family, is punishable by up to 15 years in jail.

Last month, Australian writer Harry Nicolaides was pardoned after being sentenced to three years in jail for slandering the crown prince in a self-published novel.

Giles Ji Ungpakorn, an outspoken political science professor, fled to Britain last month after he was charged over a book about a 2006 coup in Thailand.

The campaign letter calls for the release of individuals jailed under lese-majesty laws, a reform of the law, and an end to "suppressive measures against individuals, websites, and the peaceful expressions of ideas".

"As scholars and sympathetic observers of Thailand, we are extremely concerned about the recent legal actions taken against Thai and foreign citizens under the lese-majesty law," the letter said.

"Instead of protecting reputations, these lese-majesty cases generate heightened criticism of the monarchy and Thailand itself."

The monarchy's role in Thailand's recent political upheaval - involving a self-proclaimed royalist group that blockaded Bangkok's airports last year - remains one of the most sensitive subjects in the kingdom.

Officials say more than 4,800 webpages have been blocked since March last year because they contain content deemed insulting to the monarchy, and that at least 17 lese-majesty cases are currently underway.

The new prime minister has previously defended the crackdown, saying there were "historical and cultural differences" between Thailand and other countries.

-AFP

[Plus]

I think we should clarify who is "they" here.

Fifty foreginers or two organisers?

None of the names or prominent scholars are recongisable as Thai experts. I think they've just signed a paper because it's sounds good, without any deep knowledge of the matter.

Two organisers, on the other hand, are quite popular, with well known views. They, the orginisers/sponsors made it happen. It's not like Chomsky woke up one morning and felt like he should write a letter to Thai government.

Had people like Chomsky spent sometime getting up to speed, they'd realised that they are falling in the same trap they accuse the government of - using LM laws for political purposes, in this case publicity for Walker and co.

Just like Giles a week ago used a weak LM charge against his rather innocent book to stir up a lot of shit with his Red Siam communist manifesto. Just like Nicolaides used LM publicity to promote his book as "uncompromising assault on the patrician values of the monarchy" that actually has only one small reference to royalty.

These people have no integrity whatsoever.

Thongchai, the sponsor, sounds like his whipping up the paranoya with his "climate of fear" references.

[sassienie]

It’s all about respect and attitude.

If respect is not imposed for those in authority and the monarchy, than this has a knock on effect right down the line, including attitudes towards elders in the family.

The UK is a typical example of a declining society when open liberalism is encouraged.

I for one prefer Thai society the way it is and hope it never completely falls foul to Western influences.

Do gooders, missionaries and interferers should first consider the problems within their own societies before trying to meddle in the affairs of Thai culture.

God bless the monachy and long may they reign as they have for hundreds of years.

[pete_r]

I think we should clarify who is "they" here.

Fifty foreginers or two organisers?

None of the names or prominent scholars are recongisable as Thai experts. I think they've just signed a paper because it's sounds good, without any deep knowledge of the matter.

Two organisers, on the other hand, are quite popular, with well known views. They, the orginisers/sponsors made it happen. It's not like Chomsky woke up one morning and felt like he should write a letter to Thai government.

Had people like Chomsky spent sometime getting up to speed, they'd realised that they are falling in the same trap they accuse the government of - using LM laws for political purposes, in this case publicity for Walker and co.

Just like Giles a week ago used a weak LM charge against his rather innocent book to stir up a lot of shit with his Red Siam communist manifesto. Just like Nicolaides used LM publicity to promote his book as "uncompromising assault on the patrician values of the monarchy" that actually has only one small reference to royalty.

These people have no integrity whatsoever.

Thongchai, the sponsor, sounds like his whipping up the paranoya with his "climate of fear" references.

Kudos for giving publicity to a letter you apparently dislike.

Now, rather than denigrating the authors and the signatories, could you move on to debating the ideas in the letter and outline what are the points you disagree with?

Thanks,

[Plus]

My point is that regardless of the content it's a bad move - two publicity seekers managed to persuade fifty foreigners to put pressure on Thai governement.

It's is a bad move for plenty of reasons. It allows Thailand to circle the wagons against outside threat to monarchy with full public support. This kind of "attack" from foreigners on the most beloved insitution is not going to make society any more open and will only lead to more confrontation. I wonder if that is the original plan..

As for content itself - "truth, transparency, civic discussion and the democratic process" have nothing to do with the current situation. There isn't a single honest, truthful, transparent, democratic proponent of the change that has suffered any kind of repression for expressing his views. The whole agenda is built on cases like that lying bastard Jarkapop, insane Da Torpedo, conniving Giles and opportunist Harry. Those nuts on the front banners make the movement even more hypocritical than reds denying their Thaksin obsession.

There is simply no case. There's no climate of fear, there's no attempt at any serious discussion, there's no genuine need for discussion either. There's a few enthusiastic revolutionaries using all underhand means to make themselves heard, that's all.

The country is tired of ideological conflicts. People just want the government to work for a change. Silly arguments about how Thai society got it all wrong for the past sixty years and how it has to be overhauled and put upside down and how everybody is an idiot that can't see the "truth" are just mental masturbation, it's a non-starter, completely unrealistic. In all these years I haven't heard one single idea about how it might actually work.

Never.

[jumnien]

I would respond logically but for the climate of fear brought on by the threat of imprisonment for discussing the subject.

God bless this King!

[freddiefunk]

My point is that regardless of the content it's a bad move - two publicity seekers managed to persuade fifty foreigners to put pressure on Thai governement.

It's is a bad move for plenty of reasons. It allows Thailand to circle the wagons against outside threat to monarchy with full public support. This kind of "attack" from foreigners on the most beloved insitution is not going to make society any more open and will only lead to more confrontation. I wonder if that is the original plan..

As for content itself - "truth, transparency, civic discussion and the democratic process" have nothing to do with the current situation. There isn't a single honest, truthful, transparent, democratic proponent of the change that has suffered any kind of repression for expressing his views. The whole agenda is built on cases like that lying bastard Jarkapop, insane Da Torpedo, conniving Giles and opportunist Harry. Those nuts on the front banners make the movement even more hypocritical than reds denying their Thaksin obsession.

There is simply no case. There's no climate of fear, there's no attempt at any serious discussion, there's no genuine need for discussion either. There's a few enthusiastic revolutionaries using all underhand means to make themselves heard, that's all.

The country is tired of ideological conflicts. People just want the government to work for a change. Silly arguments about how Thai society got it all wrong for the past sixty years and how it has to be overhauled and put upside down and how everybody is an idiot that can't see the "truth" are just mental masturbation, it's a non-starter, completely unrealistic. In all these years I haven't heard one single idea about how it might actually work.

Never.

Spot on! I agree with everything you say or ever will say!

[dave9988]

If I ever hear or see a farang speak bad about the Thai Monarchy I will put him in the hospital.

Edited March 5, 2009 by dave9988

[jumnien]

If I ever hear or see a farang speak bad about the Thai Monarchy I will put him in the hospital.

It's quite evident that violence and intimidation goes with the territory. Nice yellow shirt!

[Plus]

I'm afraid you are confusing speaking bad with speaking logically, Jumnien.

How about this for intellectual exercise - this thread is about LM laws. You can discuss it without discussing the royal insitution directly.

For now it looks like you, like all those LM opponents, are ducking the debate under cover of imagined fear. The truth might be that the debate lucks any substance and original ideas, they are just making lots of noise. Generall speaking Thais are comfortable with their perception of monarchy, they don't think too much about it, they don't feel there's a need to debate anything.

It's the opponents of LM law who accuse everyone of politicising the subject are doing precisely the same by dragging it into the spotlight again and again and again.

No one gives a dam_n about that mental Torpedo or Giles communist ramblings or Harry's publicity stunt. There's nothing to debate here even if you wanted to, in a way they better keep quiet or risk exposing themselves as total idiots. It's already happen though, time to move along.

[MiG16]

I have re-opened this topic, but please make sure your discussions stay within the forum rules.

cheers

[MiG16]

topic re-opened

[adjan jb]

This kind of "attack" from foreigners on the most beloved insitution

I don't think they attacked the monarchy in any way. I believe they're opposed to a law (a very different matter).

On that subject, His Majesty The King's 2005 birthday speech is a must read.

Extracts:

"I am not afraid if the criticism concerns what I do wrong, because then I know. Because if you say the King cannot be criticised, it means that the King is not human."

" However, after going to jail, if they violate the King, the King is troubled, troubled in many ways. First, foreign countries see Thailand as a country where people cannot criticise the King, otherwise [they] go to jail. The King is in trouble [for this]. I have to say that after going to jail, I have to pardon them for seriously insulting me. Foreigners say ‘In Thailand you go to jail if the King is insulted.’ Actually, shall go to jail, but because foreigners said so, do not send [them] to jail. No one dares to send people who insult the King to jail because the King will be troubled because they will accuse that the King is not a good person, [or] at least is sensitive. Whoever insults a little, send them to jail. Actually, the King has never told [anyone] to send them to jail.

[under] previous kings, even rebels were not sent to jail, were not punished. King Rama the VI did not punish rebels. During [the time of] King Rama IX, who were the rebels? Actually, there had never been. I also followed the same way: Do not send them to jail, but release [them]. If they are in jail, release them. If they are not in jail, I will not sue because I am in trouble. A person who is insulted is in troubled. People who violate the King, and are punished are not in trouble but the King is in trouble. This is strange. Lawyers like to launch suits and send them to jail."

Edited March 9, 2009 by adjan jb

[samgrowth]

If I ever hear or see a farang speak bad about the Thai Monarchy I will put him in the hospital.

It's quite evident that violence and intimidation goes with the territory. Nice yellow shirt!

Can anyone pass me the list of 50 foreigners. I am taking it to the police station and file a LM against them straight away. And if the police do not take action, I will file a LM against the police department. I will see if anyone dare to such a publicity stun again.

Edited March 9, 2009 by samgrowth

[PeaceBlondie]

Of course an extreme law will have crazy proponents and opponents. Of course it will be politicized and abused by hypocrites. That should not detract from the larger, more important question: does Thailand in the 21st century need such a draconian law, or should Thailand revise its law?

[haltes]

If I ever hear or see a farang speak bad about the Thai Monarchy I will put him in the hospital.

That's a very mature response. Your knuckles hurt do they? They must spend a lot of time dragging along the ground....

[CWMcMurray]

This kind of "attack" from foreigners on the most beloved insitution

I don't think they attacked the monarchy in any way. I believe they're opposed to a law (a very different matter).

On that subject, His Majesty The King's 2005 birthday speech is a must read.

Extracts:

"I am not afraid if the criticism concerns what I do wrong, because then I know. Because if you say the King cannot be criticised, it means that the King is not human."

" However, after going to jail, if they violate the King, the King is troubled, troubled in many ways. First, foreign countries see Thailand as a country where people cannot criticise the King, otherwise [they] go to jail. The King is in trouble [for this]. I have to say that after going to jail, I have to pardon them for seriously insulting me. Foreigners say ‘In Thailand you go to jail if the King is insulted.’ Actually, shall go to jail, but because foreigners said so, do not send [them] to jail. No one dares to send people who insult the King to jail because the King will be troubled because they will accuse that the King is not a good person, [or] at least is sensitive. Whoever insults a little, send them to jail. Actually, the King has never told [anyone] to send them to jail.

[under] previous kings, even rebels were not sent to jail, were not punished. King Rama the VI did not punish rebels. During [the time of] King Rama IX, who were the rebels? Actually, there had never been. I also followed the same way: Do not send them to jail, but release [them]. If they are in jail, release them. If they are not in jail, I will not sue because I am in trouble. A person who is insulted is in troubled. People who violate the King, and are punished are not in trouble but the King is in trouble. This is strange. Lawyers like to launch suits and send them to jail."

It appears that the King made a plee to the politicians to revise these laws over 3 years ago, but it appears that for their own reasons they chose to ignore the King's request.

Perphaps the present government will take the King's wishes into account during their planned discussion of this topic.

LM laws are not needed to protect Good Kings, they are only needed to protect Bad ones. I do not believe that these laws are genuinely needed, everyone loves the present King and will continue to do so even without these Laws.

Long Live the King

Respect given freely is far more meaningful than respect demanded...

reason for edit:

My post is based upon the above post, if this is not an acurate translation of the King's speach then please disregard

Edited March 9, 2009 by CWMcMurray

[adjan jb]

reason for edit:

My post is based upon the above post, if this is not an acurate translation of the King's speach then please disregard

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2005/12/05...s_19334317.html

[sabaijai]

PM pledges to study lese majeste law reform

BANGKOK, March 6 (TNA) - Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva on Friday said he would look into ways to reform Thailand’s lese majeste law to ensure clarity and fairness for all parties concerned.

"The enforcement of the law itself must first be deliberated as problems in the past were involved with how the law was being enforced," the prime minister said, adding that he would further discuss the matter with the national police chief and all stakeholders in the issue.

Mr. Abhisit said he had already conveyed all concerns regarding the matter to the police chief.

The move, he said, was aimed not at creating a positive image of the kingdom in the eyes of the international community, but to assure fairness for all parties concerned.

The premier said, however, that the legislative reform would not affect current cases, as those who had intentionally violated the law should not be allowed to exploit it.

Mr. Abhisit made the statement after a group 54 academics worldwide signed a letter to Mr. Abhisit calling on the Thai government to reform the law to prevent further abuses, to stop "suppressive measures against individuals, web sites, and the peaceful expressions of ideas" and to release individuals jailed under lese majeste laws.

The lese majeste law mandates a jail term of three to 15 years for “whoever defames, insults or threatens the king, the queen, the heir to the throne or the regent.”

Mr. Abhisit stated that all the cases must be handled in a straightforward manner based on the existing law.

The most recent case involves Giles Ji Ungpakorn, an outspoken academic, who fled to Britain last month after being charged with lese majeste over a book he wrote about the 2006 coup in Thailand.

Australian novelist Harry Nicolaides was granted a royal pardon late last month after being sentenced to three years in prison for writing a fictional work deemed insulting to the monarchy. (TNA)

Political News : Last Update : 15:33:49 6 March 2009 (GMT+7:00)

[TheWalkingMan]

If I ever hear or see a farang speak bad about the Thai Monarchy I will put him in the hospital.

Anger, fear, aggression. The dark side are they. Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. Someone just lost their Jedi card.

And don't be so sexist! It should say "him or her" please include all when posting about committing violence.

TheWalkingMan

[misterman21]

Why don`t these do gooders stop sticking their noses in when it`s not wanted?

I`m sure the Thai government can manage it`s own affairs without the advice of these Holier than thou self appointed martyrs

Not wanted by who? You! who are free to express your view And for your information and education these people are far from martyrs:

The term martyr (Greek μάρτυς martys "witness") is most commonly used today to describe an individual who sacrifices his or her life in order to further a cause or belief for many.

[madjbs]

The laws of Thailand should be determined by the people of Thailand, not by a random group of foreigners.

Even though some of the reds are speaking out against the monarchy and Lese Majesty laws, the majority are not.

The majority of the people love the monarchy, whatever side they are on and most likely agree with the current laws.

Foreigners have no right to tell them what is best, that is hypocritical and not true democracy anyway. A democracy is what the people want, even if it happens to contradict what foreigners agree with.

[adjan jb]

The laws of Thailand should be determined by the people of Thailand, not by a random group of foreigners.

The laws of Thailand should be determined by the people of Thailand, not by a random group of Thais who don't take heed of His Majesty The King himself.

Edited March 9, 2009 by adjan jb

[madjbs]

The laws of Thailand should be determined by the people of Thailand, not by a random group of foreigners.

The laws of Thailand should be determined by the people of Thailand, not by a random group of Thais who don't take heed of His Majesty The King himself.

I think if you went out and spoke to normal Thai people, you would find the vast majority support the monarchy and current laws. Reds and Yellows and virtually all who don't bother getting involved.

[misterman21]

The laws of Thailand should be determined by the people of Thailand, not by a random group of foreigners.

Even though some of the reds are speaking out against the monarchy and Lese Majesty laws, the majority are not.

The majority of the people love the monarchy, whatever side they are on and most likely agree with the current laws.

Foreigners have no right to tell them what is best, that is hypocritical and not true democracy anyway. A democracy is what the people want, even if it happens to contradict what foreigners agree with.

agreed

Edited March 9, 2009 by misterman21

[aussiejosh]

I think its a good step. The law is outdated, and when people say "Thai laws should be decided by Thai's" well the current Thai's deciding your current laws seemingly use the laws and legislation to benefit themselves not Thailand, and the majority of Thai's will have no direct participation other than the seemingly endless protests and voting for the least corrupt....

[PeaceBlondie]

Reminder: we have already read what the King said in his birthday message a few years ago. Let us not speculate further on what the King meant by it. Thank you.