Good Immigration Lawyer Desperately Needed!

[buzzer]

Hi,

My friend is having extreme problems with Thai Immigration, and needs a good immigration lawyer with good ties to Immigration. Can anyone help?

Please be patient with me. He doesn't want to give out too much personal information, as he feels (incorrectly, I believe) that the wrong people might see this, and identify him, further compounding the problem. If this bothers anyone, rest assured that the lawyer will get the correct details. They're unimportant for the purpose of this post.

He is a Non-Thai Asian national in his mid-thirties, married to a Thai woman. They've had two young children together. He has lived in Thailand continuously for 16+ years, and is being given a terrible time by the criminal department within Thai Immigration, and they want to kick him out.

This all centers on the problem that some Thai's in immigration (in the Immigration's criminal dept.) say his name is similar to a man who was blacklisted about a decade ago. He is not that man! He has already been forced to travel back to the country of his citizenship (in November, and stranded there for 6 days due to the airport fiasco) to correct a visa problem caused by an incompetent lawyer. Now, with that corrected, he has a new problem - mistaken identity.

At his request, I will not give my friend's real first name, but, to anyone looking at them normally, without prejudice, the two names are not similar! His last name is as common in his country as Smith. As an example, lets say the other man's name is Simon Smith. Well, my friends name, would look something like Salomon Bar Smith. In English, and in his language, these names are clearly different. In Thai, too! But they refuse to admit to seeing the difference. There's a different spelling in the first syllable, plus an extra syllable, plus a middle name, all different.

Now the burden of proof is on him. He has to prove that he's not this other man. He has plenty of documentation about himself, but nothing can be found out about this blacklisted person, other than the fact that he's been blacklisted. During the last few months, he has been to the courts in his home provence, to do a records search on his and the other man's name. But it's a case of "How can you find something that's not there?" Many Thai office workers have spent many hours looking through old files, and have found nothing. These workers wonder what immigration is up to - because of all this senseless work they've been forced to do. Aside from the criminal dept., the other departments within immigration say he's good to have a visa issued, as soon as the criminal dept. says it's OK.

The Police aren't able to give out information, but suffice it to say, when he went there, if he was illegal, they would have arrested him. The same with Immigration itself. Also, he has travelled in and out of Thailand several times since the other man was blacklisted, and, if he was that man, he would have been detained. But the simple fact is he hasn't had a single problem with the law, or with immigration, in his 16+ years here.

Because the law is on his side, he is being forced to take the matter to court, unless an alternative can be found. In the meantime, his visa expires in a couple days, so he will be made to go back to his country of citizenship, leaving his wife, who will be forced to do the endless running around from department to department, from their home provence to Bkk, without him. He will probably take one of the children, and leave the wife here with the other child, because both are too much work for any one of them, and they have no one to help.

He feels there is someone behind the scenes in immigration, or perhaps his old lawyer - who he rightfully fired - pulling strings in immigration to make this huge hassle for him. As a result, his family is being broken up, and their business is suffering because this has been their full time job for the last couple months. According to him, Lawyers, his embassy, people from the courts, and some in Immigration say there is no lawful reason for what Immigration is doing, and the only way to clear this is for Immigration to admit to being wrong, and grant him his visa, or to take Immigration to court.

He has wasted a lot of precious time this last week with a 'sleeping lawyer' whom he was referred to. The lawyer keeps saying that he is working on the problem, but isn't - just talk and delay. My friend's Embassy has provided Thai Immigration with every clearance imaginable. But they can't force Thai Immigration to do anything. Now he has to leave for his country of citizenship in a couple days with the oldest child. I'm afraid they won't let him back in, thus breaking their family in two.

So, as stated at the head of the article; Can anyone recommend a good, well connected Thai (speaking) immigration lawyer who will actually do something about this?

Thanks,

Buzzer

[opalhort]

Why don't you contact Sunbelt Asia, sponsor of this forum?

opalhort

[Mario2008]

Good advice by opalhort. Contact Sunbelt, their banner is on top of the page, left.

[Maestro]

...My friend is having extreme problems with Thai Immigration, and needs a good immigration lawyer with good ties to Immigration...

The appeals procedure in case of denial of an extension of stay is in Police order 777/2551:

4. If the applicant does not fully meet the qualifications as prescribed by this order, the competent official shall inform the applicant for his/her denial and he/she departs within 7 days after the permission date ended.

In case the applicant wishes to review the denial by the orders mentioned in clause 1, the applicant shall re-submit an application for another review, citing the reasons for the re-submission in a letter to a competent official holding a rank of a police inspector and higher. This is for the purpose of obtaining a decision in writing on the application. In this case, the applicant may attach all supporting documents to the application for re-submission at the same time. The review shall be carried out within the time limit prescribed by paragraph 1. During the proceeding of the consideration, the competent official shall set the date of result hearing within 7 days after the review application is submitted.

But you are right, your friend will probably need a lawyer experienced in immigration matters. The first step is clearly obtaining the decision for the refusal in writing. After that, the lawyer would have to know how to proceed, perhaps file a complaint (where? Immigration Commissioner? Local police station? Court?) against the immigration official who signed the written decision for abuse of authority or something like that.

--

Maestro

[buzzer]

Good advice by opalhort. Contact Sunbelt, their banner is on top of the page, left.

I did a search on ThaiVisa regarding Sunbelt. They have a lot of people warning against using them. More bad comments than good ones - seemed to be real situations from earnest posters. Doesn't sound like a good place to start.

Also, I'm going to try to edit the OP to state that command of the English language is not a necessity for the lawyer, as my friends are functionally Thai, and not good in English.

But thanks!

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Sunbelt-Asia-t198924.html

Hope this doesn't break the "No URL's" law, as it's a Thaivisa URL.

[buzzer]

Thanks Maestro,

This sounds like something solid. I just wonder if he can use this to avoid leaving for his home country before his visa expires Tuesday evening.

He fears that if he overstays, given the situation, it might provide his opponent (whoever that is) with just the right ammunition to use against him, thereby giving the authorities just what they want to get him out and keep him out.

It seems, with the info you provided, he might be able to get a 7 day extension granted quickly, is that the way you read it?

Thanks,

Buzzer

[Maestro]

Buzzer, for reasons of confidentiality you may not want to post what immigration office your friend is dealing with but I guess you are asking for recommendation of a “good immigration lawyer” in the area where that office is, for example if the immigration office is in Phuket you would not want a lawyer from Chiang Mai.

You mentioned that your friend has already had a bad experience with a lawyer and fired him. You probably realise, therefore, that you are assuming a considerable responsibility by recommending a new lawyer to him. If in the eyes of your friend the new lawyer is again unsatisfactory he is bound to blame you for it.

--

Maestro

P.S. Regarding URLs your are right, links to other pages on ThaiVisa are allowed and most useful for pointing readers to information in other threads.

[Maestro]

I remember Siam Legal, the other law firm sponsoring this forum, posting once that they do not specialise in immigration matters but you could nevertheless call them and ask. Other than the two sponsors of this forum, the only other law firm that comes to my mind is Tilleke & Gibbins.

--

Maestro

[goonerthegooner]

Surely the date of birth will show who is right from wrong. Immigration must have this on record for both parties.

[buzzer]

Unfortunately, I couldn't edit my original post. But my friends do not need an English speaking lawyer or law firm.

I'm not standing still, I have been checking anything I can find with regard to law firms. Those mentioned seem to either 1. Have issues. or 2. Be Farang oriented, and are priced accordingly. Money is an issue, and Tilleke & Gibbins is supposed to be very expensive. Someone who is a Thai lawyer, specializing in immigration law and who works well with immigration, but one who will work in my friend's interest would be ideal. I know that's a lot to ask for.

Bangkok Immigration is the office he's dealing with.

The previous lawyer had a long-term lawyer/client relationship with my friend, and was trusted up until a couple months ago. The error they created caused him to go back to his birth country (his Home country is Thailand for 16 years now). He was on a plane that was turned back from the Airport the first day of the demonstrations, and he ended up sleeping on airport benches for 6 days, due to this lawyer's error. He has swallowed any hard feelings, and does not want to take this matter to court - fearing making more enemies.

Thanks for the info on the birth date, I think, however, that absolutely nothing can be found out about this blacklisted person. Apparently my friend can gather some additional info if he goes back to his country, but he said there must be thousands of people with the other person's name there - very common. Like the name Kim in Korea, Wong in China - compounded by a very common first name.

Thanks for all the replies - I'm checking the status of this topic regularly. Buzzer

[buzzer]

My friend just returned from trying to get more information (on a Sunday, no less).

So, I was able to tell him what I wrote and what the responses contained. There are some language communication difficulties between us, but I think I got the point across, I just hope I can represent what he said to me accurately, in plain English. Some of our discussion was definitely helped by some of the above posts - so, thank you already for the help.

Time is running out on his visa - if he could get an extension, and possibly avoid the expense of leaving Thailand, it certainly would help. Several days have been utterly wasted on the "sleeping lawyer".

So, basically the points we discussed were:

1. I was wrong when I said the court workers in the other provence were looking for the other man's name. They were just looking to assure that my friend's record was clear. They informed BKK immigration that it was.

2. Immigration won't provide him with any information about the blacklisted guy at all. He has asked, but they refuse him any details. According to Maestro, there should be a paper stating the nature of the case against him, and that would be signed by an official. They refuse to give him this.

3. Now, I'm assuming that they would have more information about a blacklisted person than just a name, right? Earlier, Gooner mentioned birth date. That seems valid. My friend said there would be a record of what this person's offense was, date, and a case #. I'm sure there would be many other details as well, given the Thai penchant for endless paper work. If they would provide just the case # it would 'unlock' all the rest of the information about this mystery man. But Thai Immigration just says, in effect, this person is blacklisted, and this person is you. They won't provide any additional information. This seems wrong to me. If they throw you out of a country, they usually tell you why, don't they? Beyond just saying you're blacklisted, so get out!

4. Depending on the offense, there could be a statute of limitations set, after which, even the blacklisted man could return to the country. Without, any idea of what offense was committed, or when, how can they even tell whether or not the guy who is actually guilty might be allowed to return?

So, something seems very out of place with this whole situation. My friend should be, at a bare minimum, given details as to why there is a case against him.

Still, does anyone have any immigration lawyers they can refer us too?

Thanks,

Buzzer

[opalhort]

So, something seems very out of place with this whole situation. My friend should be, at a bare minimum, given details as to why there is a case against him.

Still, does anyone have any immigration lawyers they can refer us too?

Thanks,

Buzzer

Yes, something is certrainly out of place. These days mistaken identities can easily be cleared up. Also there appears to be some language problem.

I suggest that your friend visits his emabassy and explains the situation in his own language. Most embassies also have a list of lawyers available who could help in situations like that.

In any case it can't hurt to give Sunbelt a call or e-mail. They do speak English and Thai (not sure about other languages). The least they will do is give you some advice of how to proceed on your own.

opalhort

[opalhort]

Just one more observation:

Your friend has been here for 16 years and married no less, why does he still need a lawyer to handle his visa matters?

If a lawyer fouled up something and your friend dumped him then I doubt very much said lawyer would try to get your friend blacklisted unless this lawyer is owed something.

If your friend if from South or West Asia there may well be some other issues involved and in this is the case only his embassy can help him.

opalhort

[buzzer]

Yes, something is certrainly out of place. These days mistaken identities can easily be cleared up. Also there appears to be some language problem.

I don't know about the statement that mistaken identities can be easily cleared up. As this whole thing seems like a ruse founded on mistaken identity because they want him out, and figured that was the way to do it, it doesn't seem that the perpetrators are going to budge, and certainly won't lend a hand solving the mystery they created.

I suggest that your friend visits his emabassy and explains the situation in his own language. Most embassies also have a list of lawyers available who could help in situations like that.

He's been to his Embassy a number of times. I know they have communicated with Thai Immigration, that's about all I know about it. I'll ask him if he's asked them for legal help, or a list of lawyers.

In any case it can't hurt to give Sunbelt a call or e-mail. They do speak English and Thai (not sure about other languages). The least they will do is give you some advice of how to proceed on your own.

My friend has been in Thailand most of his life, and speaks better Thai than his original language. He's functionally a Thai. The language difficulty is only with me. I don't speak Thai very well. Everyone he is dealing with he can understand perfectly. That's why I wish I could edit my original post to clear up this misunderstanding -

They're not looking for an English speaking lawyer!

And please! No more Sunbelt! Sunbelt is #1 on my list of companies not to deal with. My friend concurs 1. They cater to an English speaking clientele, 2. They have received a pretty miserable report from many who have dealt with them - posted on a site that they advertise on - without a rebuttal from them. I'd think that, if they're any good, a rebuttal might be in order. Isn't that something that lawyers are supposed to be good at? 3. A visit to their website provides me with a virus warning. That was similar to the problem in this post from 2 years ago.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Virus-Sunbel...ia-t105771.html

Apparently this is a situation that has existed for some time and nobody has done anything about it. Most of the complaints by their clients is along the same lines - they seem to have a gap between what they say and what & when they actually do something. My friend doesn't have time for such inactivity.

Then you suggest I call for personal advice. I'm not personally involved, just a friend trying to lend a hand to someone in need.

Thanks for trying to help though.

Buzzer

[buzzer]

Just one more observation:

Your friend has been here for 16 years and married no less, why does he still need a lawyer to handle his visa matters?

Don't know. He may have known the lawyer for years - even before his marriage.

If a lawyer fouled up something and your friend dumped him then I doubt very much said lawyer would try to get your friend blacklisted unless this lawyer is owed something.

The Lawyer being the culprit is just one possibility. He doesn't know why this is happening, or who is causing it. Or, even IF someone is causing it - it just seems so.

If your friend if from South or West Asia there may well be some other issues involved and in this is the case only his embassy can help him.

I don't know what an embassy can or can not do. The Philippines embassy was pretty lame when it came to helping out one person of my acquaintance - unjustly jailed for two years. But that's a different country, and embassy.

[MrHammer]

Strange story..

If your friend speaks fluent thai and has lived here for 16 years surely he must know how to get a lawyer?

Why does he ask you who barely can understand him to help him? Do you employ him or something like that?

[Mario2008]

I have corrected the OP into that he is looking for a Thai (speaking) lawyer, not an English speaking.

[neverdie]

Buzzer,

Will immigration at least give you a date that this fellow that was blacklisted & perhaps a date that he was deported on, then I guess depending on these dates your friend could work out what he was doing or who he was with at that time, then he could simply attend his embassy in bkk along with anyone who could certify his whereabouts & complete some statutory declarations which could then be taken to immigration? For example, if your friend was working for someone in Bkk at the time of the offence (you said he had been here for 16 years) then that person could certify his whereabouts etc. He may have even been out of thailand at the time this all occurred and old passport or something could confirm this.

I understand your reasons for trying to find the mystery man, but if the burden of proof is on your friend here, if he is given dates of blacklisting/deportation etc, then perhaps he can prove he was elsewhere. Whats is the level of the burden of proof required, ie: the balance of probabilities or beyond reasonable doubt?

Ive never heard of anything like this before & I don't know any good immigration lawyers, sorry & good luck.

[buzzer]

Strange story..

If your friend speaks fluent thai and has lived here for 16 years surely he must know how to get a lawyer?

Why does he ask you who barely can understand him to help him? Do you employ him or something like that?

He didn't start looking for a lawyer until recently. I guess he (and me too) have thought this could be cleared up by his confirming that he had a clear record. Since that failed, and the first lawyer he contacted was a bad choice, who knows? How do you find a good lawyer anywhere in the world?

I've been friends with him and his family for years. I wouldn't use the word 'barely'. He speaks English, but not fluently.

[MrHammer]

Strange story..

If your friend speaks fluent thai and has lived here for 16 years surely he must know how to get a lawyer?

Why does he ask you who barely can understand him to help him? Do you employ him or something like that?

He didn't start looking for a lawyer until recently. I guess he (and me too) have thought this could be cleared up by his confirming that he had a clear record. Since that failed, and the first lawyer he contacted was a bad choice, who knows? How do you find a good lawyer anywhere in the world?

I've been friends with him and his family for years. I wouldn't use the word 'barely'. He speaks English, but not fluently.

Sure, I didnt mean to be suspicious, but in a case like this its very difficult to know what to do from the outside, because of these strange allegations, and you say possibly something behind the scenes.

I agree, his embassy should have a list of lawyers it uses, even third world countries must have that.

[buzzer]

And it gets stranger. His embassy says they can't do anything based on his word alone. They need verification from immigration, but they're getting nothing.

My friend says that if he got a lawyer provided by them (not referred), if he went back to his birth country in future, they would charge him the lawyer's fees at that time, and if he couldn't afford it, try to get it from his family, and if they didn't get it from them, he'd be thrown into jail. Sounds like the debtors' prison of the middle ages. He'll check on just getting a referral, hopefully avoiding the medieval treatment.

[neverdie]

sounds like an impossible situation to try and prove your not someone else but they wont tell you who the other person is & wont accept legally binding stat decs either....sounds very odd to me, is there more to this story, why wasnt this picked up some time earlier in the last 10 years, afterall he has been in los all this time

[buzzer]

sounds like an impossible situation to try and prove your not someone else but they wont tell you who the other person is & wont accept legally binding stat decs either....sounds very odd to me, is there more to this story, why wasnt this picked up some time earlier in the last 10 years, afterall he has been in los all this time

I think it has to do with the changes in Thai visas in recent years. It looks like the trend is to get rid of foreign nationals that have a sporadic income. I guess his former lawyer failed to do something and he had to return to his birth country. Then what happened after his return is the mystery.

Anyhow, thanks for the support, and concern by all involved. I received some genuine help here and in a PM referral to a lawyer. I'm going off-line now, Ill be back tomorrow.

Thanks again,

Buzzer

[Maestro]

Buzzer, if it is a question about the criteria for extension of stay, your friend should read them:

in English: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/post-a70477-...ember-2008.html

in Thai: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/post-a70478-...7-2551.pdf.html

The rules about the documents required for an application for extension are here:

in English: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/post-a77473-...305-2551-d.html

in Thai: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/post-a70478-...7-2551.pdf.html

I think it has to do with the changes in Thai visas in recent years. It looks like the trend is to get rid of foreign nationals that have a sporadic income...

Yes, there are specific criteria regarding proof of financial means for some types of extension of stay. If he cannot supply this proof, the immigration office cannot give him the extension. For an extension to live with his Thai wife and children, he needs proof of average monthly income of 40,000 Baht or 400,000 Baht in a Thai bank account for at least three months before the date of application for extension. Does your friend meet this requirement?

Immigration cannot give your friend information about why another person is blacklisted, but your friend has the right to get the reason for the rejection of his application for extension in writing. If the immigration office refuses this, he should write a registered letter to the Immigration Commissioner to complain, quoting the paragraph I gave earlier from Police Order 777/2551.

--

Maestro

[buzzer]

Hi Maestro,

He went to a lawyer today, who basically said, there was probably no conspiracy, just someone looking for money. He sounds like a good lawyer, and my friend found him through the usual channels - talking with Thai friends and family. All-in-all sounded good to me.

Unfortunately, so much time was wasted before making the decision to get a lawyer - then finding a bad one who ate up precious time with his empty promises - that my friend is forced to fly back to his birth country, or be illegal here. So he flies out tomorrow, and leaves the matter in the (hopefully) capable hands of the lawyer, family and friends. He should be able to return within a couple weeks.

I read through the relevant parts of the documents you referred me to. After all the delay's he has been put through with the various bureaucratic offices he's been dealing with, he just can't rely on having a visa extension rushed through in one day. The only safe course of action is for him to leave - have others clear up the matter - and return. The lawyer said if he had only come to him a couple days before the weekend, it would be a different story. Sound familiar?

As I said, the income stream for my friend is sporadic. He's pretty good at many things, and, while his present business isn't panning out too well, I think there's definite hope for some new business plans, with less unfriendly competition, than his present business.

Thanks, Maestro, and all others who have contributed to this topic. Also to Mario, the moderator for helping out. I'll keep you posted as to how things turn out.

Buzzer