Sorry, Men But,

[drronnie]

I always say stay single and be happy.

[dutchguest]

There were times when there was a matriarchal organisation of the way people lived. But in that time there were no societies as we know them now. States, societies, organised religion like buddhism, christianity etc. are rather recent fenomenons and they are organised mainly patriarchal.

Before that people lived in tribal organisation, had animistic beliefs and a matrirchal organisation. There are still a few tribes left who live more or less matriarchal like the Moso in China and (in the past) many indian tribes in America.

There are many mixed forms and i.m.o. Thailand is a mix. It still has matrilineair inheritance, inheritance in the female line. Woman owned historically land and house and are – especially in the countryside- responsible for the ecomic continuation of the family. When marrying, man move to the womans familyhouse.With the emergence of landlords, citystates and now a countrystate the role of males becomes more important, especially in politics and religion they play a dominant role.

In the west civilisation started with the Greeks and also the the transformation from matriarchal to patriarchal organisation. In the west male dominance was also put in the law, in familyright (in contrast to Thailand) inheritance is in the male line.

Only very recently in the west there is a movement to more equality between the sexes. I.m.o. generally in Thailand woman are still much more important and emancipated then in the west, may without knowing the word or the meaning.

In the west emancipation is often confused with adaptation to a male society, learning to work your way up in society with your elbows, adapting male values and attitudes. This is i.m.o. pseudo-emancipation. In Thailand woman are historicly grown more really emancipated which means not adapting to a male society and not losing their female attractivness.

A few links to support my views:

http://www.sawnet.org/books/authors.php?Namu+Yang+Erche

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/1327927/Chinese-men-threaten-%27lake-of-free-love%27-where-women-rule.html

http://www.cpamedia.com/culture/thai_women_commerce/

[dutchguest]

When you look in the streets you can see the difference from a mainly patriarchal society as India and a mix like Thailand. Thai woman are mainly doing the business, but at the dressshops you almost only see a Indian male. Woman are hidden and banned from public life and their role is in the kitchen.

Personally Thailand would loose much of its attraction if the whole public domain became maledominated.

[samuibeachcomber]

I was mulling over starting a thread on a similar line.... not that Thai women have the balls that ought to belong to Thai men, rather that for a country which attracts so many foreign men looking for women less 'assertive' than their western sisters Thailand nevertheless seems to be brimming with farangs who are in complete fear of the meek and mild Thai woman they came here to meet.

"fear of the meek and mild thai woman".................are you sure,i dont see that at all,i do agree that western men came here looking for "less assertive".imo female liberation of western women that began in the 70's did them no favours in the end,mentally they just became "blokes",and most blokes dont want more blokes,they want a female to be feminine,which does not mean they want a women to be subservient,just more feline(feminine),which imo western women have lost along the way because of the feminista movement.

[Geekfreaklover]

Whats that Thai saying, I forget.?

I't's some Elephant metaphor saying - something like "women are the front legs, and men are the back legs of an elelpant"

[mc2]

one thing I dislike about living in Thailand is having to get my partner to "get things done" when dealing with Thais.

i would prefer to be the one "getting things done" rather than feeling emasculated

its the language barrier.

[rixalex]

one thing I dislike about living in Thailand is having to get my partner to "get things done" when dealing with Thais.

i would prefer to be the one "getting things done" rather than feeling emasculated

its the language barrier.

Wasn't language a part of the Thai studies that you did?

[mc2]

one thing I dislike about living in Thailand is having to get my partner to "get things done" when dealing with Thais.

i would prefer to be the one "getting things done" rather than feeling emasculated

its the language barrier.

Wasn't language a part of the Thai studies that you did?

yes but language was not the main component in my Ph.D in Thai Cultural Studies.

sure I can speak enough to get by but its not enough for detailed negotiations, discussions, etc. and in my experience misunderstandings happen far too often.

Edited March 12, 2009 by mc2

[Beardog]

Funny, my Thai husband manages to get things sorted --takes a bit of time, being a man he seems to suffer from that selective hearing issue that most men have (could be what you are running into there) but he manages to get bills sorted, my yellow tabien ban, DSL issues, garbage pick up problems, gets the car fixed etc etc.

Hmmm... could be that your male friends just don't want to do this stuff for you? its a big enough of a PIA to do it for oneself, after all.

Here's a thought. Learn to speak Thai, take some classes. Then deal with it yourself instead.

Thats funny! I guess men from everywhere have the same selective hearing problem. I had to laugh when I read this. Thanks for the humor!

[MiG16]

as a Thai woman on this forum its great to see some acknowledgement of nice things about Thai women for a change

(I see enough negative posts here, so trust me seeing something positive is appreciated)

however, it would be nice to keep things on the positive rather than use the positive about one group of women to make comparative negative comments about other groups of women or men

we could possibly do a thread of love, ie. a thread focused on all the positives regardless of what ever group/category of people they belong to?

[bkkjames]

as a Thai woman on this forum its great to see some acknowledgement of nice things about Thai women for a change

(I see enough negative posts here, so trust me seeing something positive is appreciated)

however, it would be nice to keep things on the positive rather than use the positive about one group of women to make comparative negative comments about other groups of women or men

we could possibly do a thread of love, ie. a thread focused on all the positives regardless of what ever group/category of people they belong to?

you are a Thai woman? and all this time I thought you were just an Arsenal fan. A thread about love, now that's something I need to ask my wife about.

[eek]

as a Thai woman on this forum its great to see some acknowledgement of nice things about Thai women for a change

(I see enough negative posts here, so trust me seeing something positive is appreciated)

however, it would be nice to keep things on the positive rather than use the positive about one group of women to make comparative negative comments about other groups of women or men

we could possibly do a thread of love, ie. a thread focused on all the positives regardless of what ever group/category of people they belong to?

Thats a really sweet idea migs.

[bkkjames]

as a Thai woman on this forum its great to see some acknowledgement of nice things about Thai women for a change

(I see enough negative posts here, so trust me seeing something positive is appreciated)

however, it would be nice to keep things on the positive rather than use the positive about one group of women to make comparative negative comments about other groups of women or men

we could possibly do a thread of love, ie. a thread focused on all the positives regardless of what ever group/category of people they belong to?

Thats a really sweet idea migs.

In theory yes, but just make sure to start it in the women's forum. MWB (men with balls) don't want to talk about love in public...we're shy.

[Travel2003]

Yet again when confronted with a problem, it is being left to the female gender to assert their authority and get some action.

Far too often I have seen the men here will knuckle their forehead and give it 'Yes, Sir. Three bags full, Sir.' when dealing with staff in offices or shops and other places. But get a woman to go in there and sort the problem and she generally does. It seems the women have the balls round here and the gumption too. The same on the telephone. A man will often come back having agreed to whatever he was told by the person on the other end.

I needed a letter to show my address here - in the end a secretary of the Amphur sorted it.

I needed someone to sort out a problem with the Tourist Police. A woman did that too.

A problem with the house. You guessed, a woman on the phone to sort it and get some action.

Latest problem is with an engineer fobbing off a male friend who called, with lame excuses and has done so for 3 weeks now. I phoned a female and it is being sorted now.

All these and many other problems I've seen over the years that needed someone who can speak Thai and I have tried getting male friends to sort them, but each time they come back with some sad excuse such as, 'Another week.' Not today.' 'No can get.' etc.

Not only for myself either. Living with family in the past, it was always the women who seemed to get the job done, be it a funeral, a house problem or whatever.

Thank heavens for Thai female friends!!

Very interesting thread.

Partly agree with you there.

At least the ones I know, the women here are more up to it in solving various issues.

But, because it happened to be females that sat in the positions you dealt with, does not prove it.

I guess it only proves that some positions are filled with mainly females.

Seems to me that customer service, and quite a few office jobs are filled by females here.

Of course, traditionally, the women here are maybe a bit more skilled in negotiating, thus develop early these skills.

Dont know if it is the same in Thailand, but in several other nations in the region, the females represent a bigger and bigger group among the ones that have an education. Many of the men drop out of school and leave for some sort of more manual work early on.

[henryalleman]

Women do have plenty of important roles here, like anywhere else, but it's silly to think that there is even one non-patriarchal society on the planet.

There are, the Mosuo in Yunnan province in China is one of them. Also in Africa and in the Amazone there are still some.

BTW don't you know the old quote

God Weigh and the woman decide

[PeaceBlondie]

Interesting discussion. My main interaction these last six years in Thailand has been with gay Thai males and a mixture of Farang men and women. I let my boyfriend arrange almost everything. He changed the house plans, dealt with the male Thai construction workers, and everything came out very well. He got some advice from men and women in the village. Since I do not speak Thai, he pays the bills, gets the cars and bikes inspected and re-registered, etc. Oh, and all the bike mechanics are men. The bf was a housekeeping supervisor in hotels, so he keeps the house. He cooks, and I don't.

My two years as a teacher in Thai govt. schools was dominated by middle and upper class women teachers, and the Director was always a male. In my observation, the women got the job done; not sure how well the men worked. However, it appears mandatory for a Thai school to be totally mismanaged, regardless.

But my boyfriend is as much a Thai woman in public as he is a Thai man. His sisters drop by often, but not their husbands, so I do not know just what they do at home.

If I lived here ten more years and became extremely fluent in Thai, I might have an informed opinion.

[Heng]

^ It sounds like you have empowered your man or woman to do whatever. I doubt any of the local captains of industry run errands to the bank or land dept. either and probably often empower women to take care of an awful lot of financial matters. In many Thai-Chinese households, many women in families without sons are empowered by their fathers to take over the reins; and in many families by their husbands when males start to get old (recognizing the natural balance that women keep their marbles longer... hence preserving family financial stability better)

[henryalleman]

I have the same experience as the OP. When I have overweight luggage at any airport I always go to a counter where a woman is sitting, because they always find some way to help me out to reduce the costs or even without paying the extra fee.

I can give many examples like that from banks to civil servants. Women always are more helpful. In my professional career as a manager I always noticed that women in general are more dedicated to their job than men. They don't see it as not only a job, but as a kind of vocation, where salary is not the main factor.

In general I'm quite capable to arrange my own problems. But when I don't find a solution than I ask may wife, and than the secret organisation called 'THAI WOMEN SISTERHOOD' come in action.

After some phone calls this nationwide organisation find the contact person who can arrange your problem in a couple of hours.

Some tracking example of this living in Bangkok, wife phone to Nakhon Sawan, she phone Chiang Mai, she phone Bangkok, Bangkok phone the wife tell her she is waiting for us to arrange the problem or she send someone.

Another small example I can always pass by the diplomatic immigration counter at Suvi, Because some family from a friend of a friend she knows, is waiting for us when we leave the airplane and we sailing through the airport in minutes.

Another one,

I hit a wall and the front fender of the car(Toyota Altis)was damaged, and again a few phone calls and 24 hour later a brand new fender was installed for 2500 Baht.

I can give dozens of examples from official documents to sell a house that was on the market for more than a year.

Sometimes I wonder if without Thai women this country will still function.

[LevelHead]

This thread is a load of BALLS.

(as it seems the OP is allowed to use BALLS in the header with no moderation.........so BALLS is ok).

There........this thread really is a load of BALLS.

[mahtin]

If you quote someone you must always provide a citation:

Possibly not a good idea when calling them a <deleted>.

[mahtin]

Personally Thailand would loose much of its attraction if the whole public domain became maledominated.

Yes, just imagine beer bars with nothing but bar men

[IMA_FARANG]

You mean it took you this long to notice?

When I first came to Thailand I stayed with a Thai-Chinese family. It was the normal family order arrangement in which the son deferred to father, and father deferred to grand-father. But I quickly realised grand-father listened first to his wife, who was the real family boss. When she suggested, grand-father dictated.

The three things that a woman has traditional authority in Thailand are:

1. religion (Buddhisim here in Thailand).

2. raising children and education. (how and where)

3. running the household (and expenses required for that).

Now because women run those three, they actually control the house, don't they?

What good Thai man would lose face by arguing with a woman about those 3 things?

And for that reason, women are in control, even if they are smart enough to let their husband think he is the "head of the house".

I've also learned that trying to deal with western Farang businessmen is often a waste of time. I usually go in to his office when he "happens" to be out at lunch. I can usually get all the info I need from his secretary while he is at lunch. Often she actually knows more about the bussines than her boss really does.

If a dumb male can figure these things out, I'm sure most women already have.

You know the saying...A woman has to work twice as hard as a man to get the same authority. Fortuneatly, working twice is hard as a man usually requires only half her normal ability, so she has no problem doing it.

Edited March 12, 2009 by IMA_FARANG

[henryalleman]

You mean it took you this long to notice?

When I first came to Thailand I stayed with a Thai-Chinese family. It was the normal family order arrangement in which the son deferred to father, and father deferred to grand-father. But I quickly realised grand-father listened first to his wife, who was the real family boss. When she suggested, grand-father dictated.

The three things that a woman has traditional authority in Thailand are:

1. religion (Buddhisim here in Thailand).

2. raising children and education. (how and where)

3. running the household (and expenses required for that).

Now because women run those three, they actually control the house, don't they?

What good Thai man would lose face by arguing with a woman about those 3 things?

And for that reason, women are in control, even if they are smart enough to let their husband think he is the "head of the house".

I've also learned that trying to deal with western Farang businessmen is often a waste of time. I usually go in to his office when he "happens" to be out at lunch. I can usually get all the info I need from his secretary while he is at lunch. Often she actually knows more about the bussines than her boss really does.

If a dumb male can figure these things out, I'm sure most women already have.

You know the saying...A woman has to work twice as hard as a man to get the same authority. Fortuneatly, working twice is hard as a man usually requires only half her normal ability, so she has no problem doing it.

You hit the nail right on top.

[dutchguest]

Personally Thailand would loose much of its attraction if the whole public domain became maledominated.

Yes, just imagine beer bars with nothing but bar men

Also in the beerbars you sometimes can find a few "woman" who really have balls. So you better watch out..

[F1fanatic]

I was mulling over starting a thread on a similar line.... not that Thai women have the balls that ought to belong to Thai men, rather that for a country which attracts so many foreign men looking for women less 'assertive' than their western sisters Thailand nevertheless seems to be brimming with farangs who are in complete fear of the meek and mild Thai woman they came here to meet.

"fear of the meek and mild thai woman".................are you sure,i dont see that at all,i do agree that western men came here looking for "less assertive".imo female liberation of western women that began in the 70's did them no favours in the end,mentally they just became "blokes",and most blokes dont want more blokes,they want a female to be feminine,which does not mean they want a women to be subservient,just more feline(feminine),which imo western women have lost along the way because of the feminista movement.

Glad to see from recent posts that this topic has finally got back on track (although I will de-rail it again at the end of the post)!

As a single female, my experience is that if I have a problem (I emphasise this as I can deal with most other things myself), my female Thai friends will do anything to help and sort it out. Thai men generally can't be bothered if it's going to involve arguing with another Thai. (Something to do with the all important 'face' I expect plus, and this is just my opinion, they're not that bothered about helping a 'farang' ). (Thai husbands to Western women will understandably be more helpful about sorting out problems, it's their problem as well!)

I've also found that male (and most female) farang friends will also go out of their way to help - god bless them!!

Going slightly off topic now to reply to Samuibeachcomber's post - it's obvious to anyone that your problem is not with Western women's 'assertiveness' , but that you need a subservient woman, and few Western women will accept anything less than an equal relationship (unlike their Thai counterparts). Despite your denials, you're deluding yourself if you believe that that Western women are anything like as assertive as Western men! Western women still love being feminine (but not subservient), and the 'women's lib' movement allowed them to have a life apart from that of devoting themselves to their husbands. That is your problem with Western women and it's time you tried a little honest self-evaluation to realise this!

[samuibeachcomber]

wrong F1,its the assertiveness(brought on by the feminist movement and equal oppotunities)that has lessened the difference between men and women in the west.hence men have flocked to asia,to women who still have this femininity.

and in my particular case i do not want a partner who is subservient,i want and have a thai wife who is beautifully feminine,and has this wonderful way of achieving all she wants without being assertive.

[F1fanatic]

wrong F1,its the assertiveness(brought on by the feminist movement and equal oppotunities)that has lessened the difference between men and women in the west.hence men have flocked to asia,to women who still have this femininity.

and in my particular case i do not want a partner who is subservient,i want and have a thai wife who is beautifully feminine,and has this wonderful way of achieving all she wants without being assertive.

I'll reply by PM 'cos this is VERY off-topic!

[Boo]

thank god for being liberated & the freedom to be assertive. I get to achieve everything I want without the need to pander to my husbands/anyones ego to get it whilst remaining a 100% feminine women (Still not sure what femininity has to do with assertivness but hey, if being assertive mean that some men don't view me as feminine then I can live with it. ) Life is sweet being me

[Gary A]

I hate to disappoint the macho guys. My Thai wife is anything BUT submissive. Actually I wouldn't have it any other way. No way do I want a clinging vine insecure jealous woman. You Western women have nothing over on her. Maybe it is because I married an older woman who has taken care of herself for most of her life. I often ask her why she asks me about anything because she already knows EVERYTHING.

[Boo]

Exactly garyA, some men like assertive women & some men find it a turn off. Different stroke for different folks.

Being capable & assertive has nothing to do with feminine or not. It is all to do with the individual