Before We Can Get Anywhere In These Political Debates

[TonySoprano]

1. The rural masses standard of living rose significantly under Thaskin. They were not tricked or brainwashed into loving him. They love him because he was the first guy to ever come around and treat them as a powerful voting demographic.

2. Thaskin was a self serving corrupt politician who committed horrific human rights violations and believed himself to be above the law.

If a person will not admit to the above then they are a one-sided fanatic, and there is no point in debating with them.

[PhilHarries]

Well whatever you think of him Taksin was definitely one Jekyl and Hyde political character.

The question is which of his personas was the more dominant and which of them suits Thailand overall the best?

[londonthai]

some of the board members are payed for posting here (as I believe), so fanaticism doesn't come into account.

[Sabum]

1. The rural masses standard of living rose significantly under Thaskin. They were not tricked or brainwashed into loving him. They love him because he was the first guy to ever come around and treat them as a powerful voting demographic.

2. Thaskin was a self serving corrupt politician who committed horrific human rights violations and believed himself to be above the law.

If a person will not admit to the above then they are a one-sided fanatic, and there is no point in debating with them.

Pretty good man, pretty good, that's just about the simplest most concise synopsis of Taksin I've ever read. But I also believe some people that post here are on the job and don't always represent true beliefs and interest.

[Jingthing]

The rural masses standard of living rose significantly under Thaskin.

Pretty good, but I question the above. Wasn't a lot of that "raising" just easy credit leading to massive debt, leaving the peasants even WORSE off?

Another point you left off that is kind of critical: we CANNOT really have a full political debate taking ALL of the relevant factors into account on this board. PERIOD.

Edited March 13, 2009 by Jingthing

[jumnien]

Good post by the OP. Jingthing does well to restate the obvious. We can't talk about the central theme.

[monkfish]

I agree 100% on both points.

But would you agree that every politician or government official in Thailand is bent? Because that is my impression.

[Sabum]

Jingthing, I think the main point is the 30 baht healthcare, everything else is just icing but wasn't that the real benefit to the people?

[JetsetBkk]

1. The rural masses standard of living rose significantly under Thaskin. They were not tricked or brainwashed into loving him. They love him because he was the first guy to ever come around and treat them as a powerful voting demographic.

2. Thaskin was a self serving corrupt politician who committed horrific human rights violations and believed himself to be above the law.

If a person will not admit to the above then they are a one-sided fanatic, and there is no point in debating with them.

If you like him so much, why can't you spell his name correctly? Or is that some kind of joke?

[Roadman]

1. The rural masses standard of living rose significantly under Thaskin. They were not tricked or brainwashed into loving him. They love him because he was the first guy to ever come around and treat them as a powerful voting demographic.

2. Thaskin was a self serving corrupt politician who committed horrific human rights violations and believed himself to be above the law.

If a person will not admit to the above then they are a one-sided fanatic, and there is no point in debating with them.

I agree. Funny thing is I don't see many on this board that disagree that Thaksin was as you describe.

What is more obvious on this board is that there is a big group who cannot equally apply the same acceptance to "Oh let me see...the thai judicary, the yellow virgin saints

Edited cause I can...

Edited March 13, 2009 by Roadman

[mc2]

Jingthing, I think the main point is the 30 baht healthcare, everything else is just icing but wasn't that the real benefit to the people?

Yes From the masses point of view 30baht healthcare was the main thing , other stuff like villiage funds helped, .

[endure]

some of the board members are payed for posting here (as I believe), so fanaticism doesn't come into account.

Do you have any evidence to back this up?

[jumnien]

Jingthing, I think the main point is the 30 baht healthcare, everything else is just icing but wasn't that the real benefit to the people?

Yes From the masses point of view 30baht healthcare was the main thing , other stuff like villiage funds helped, .

Thaksin was also lucky in that his time in office was a time of great prosperity and improvement for Thailand. Every city and town looked a lot nicer, roads were better, more in school. There was a positive feeling. The exact opposite to now.

[londonthai]

some of the board members are payed for posting here (as I believe), so fanaticism doesn't come into account.

Do you have any evidence to back this up?

no, I can't check somebodie's bank accounts, envelopes passed under the table or pensions coming from some governmental organisations - hence I wrote "I believe" and not "I know". Just a suspicion, a logical deduction from what I read here.

my conclusion is not alone:

But I also believe some people that post here are on the job and don't always represent true beliefs and interest.

I agree. Funny thing is I don't see many on this board that disagree that Thaksin was as you describe.

What is more obvious on this board is that there is a big group who cannot equally apply the same acceptance to "Oh let me see...the thai judicary, the yellow virgin saints

Edited March 13, 2009 by londonthai

[mc2]

some of the board members are payed for posting here (as I believe), so fanaticism doesn't come into account.

Do you have any evidence to back this up?

no, I can't check somebodie's bank accounts, envelopes passed under the table or pensions coming from some governmental organisations - hence I wrote "I believe" and not "I know". Just a suspicion, a logical deduction from what I read here.

my conclusion is not alone:

There are at least one or two on the board who post more or less "full time", day in day out, month, year in year out, spreading the same biased propaganda messages.

Now I don't know if they get paid, or by how much, nor do I know who pays them (presumably from the same purse that pays the PAD), or even if they do it out of fanaticism. I suppose in these difficult economic times, people will resort to any type of jobs to get by and thats understandable.

Edited March 13, 2009 by mc2

[PhilHarries]

There are at least one or two on the board who post more or less "full time", day in day out, month, year in year out, spreading the same biased propaganda messages.

Now I don't know if they get paid, or by how much, nor do I know who pays them, or even if they do it out of fanaticism. I suppose in these difficult economic times, people will resort to any type of jobs to get by and thats understandable.

This could equally apply to both sides of the political arena but without concrete evidence they are nothing more than suspicions fueled by a large dose of bias.

If a person will not admit to the above then they are a one-sided fanatic, and there is no point in debating with them.

Having considered the OP for a while, and had a night's kip into the bargain, I've come to the conclusion that this statement epitomises the divisions in Thai society that merely is a microcosym of the similar divisions in world beliefs of all types.

Agree with me or be written off as a <insert favourite -ist or -ic here> and your views will be ignored as being irrelevant and I don't want to talk to you.

"You are either with us or agaist us" - Sound familiar?

Two people can hold diametrically opposing views and steadfastly hold on to those views whilst appreciating those of the opposing party. Just because they are firm in their views does not make them a fanatic of any persuation.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with the sentiments of the statement it's just the bald, harsh wording that I am uncomfortable with. That may be the problem with the "written" word, devoid of tone and inflexion. The road to peace lies within the concept of negotiation, the parties do not have to abandon their arguements but merely appreciate the other's standpoint and work with each other to find a middle ground. What has been lost in Thai politics, and to a large extent those of the world, is the ability to accept that the solution may not be 100% satisfactory to both sides but will almost certainly lie within the framework of compromise.

[Pakboong]

There are a few questions that IMO have not been addressed with regard to Thaksin. The main one to me is with every yellow party member and all government officials over turning every rock in Thailand looking for a crime to charge Thaksin with; reality is, they didn't fine much at all. Actually, they found almost nothing. Simple tax fraud which was probably an accounting error. I am quite sure that Thaksin never did his own taxes and it is likely that he didn't even sign himself.

People with as much money as Thaksin, do not need to steal from the people. He was a billionaire by US standards

[endure]

some of the board members are payed for posting here (as I believe), so fanaticism doesn't come into account.

Do you have any evidence to back this up?

no, I can't check somebodie's bank accounts, envelopes passed under the table or pensions coming from some governmental organisations - hence I wrote "I believe" and not "I know". Just a suspicion, a logical deduction from what I read here.

In other words you have no evidence at all and you are assuming that people who have a different viewpoint to you are being corrupted by money whereas you aren't.

[mc2]

It is common knowledge that on the internet people can get hired to post articles, usually for commercial reasons, informative posts on blogs subtly promoting brands or products. It is a subtle type of spamming.

You can even hire teams of people to produce content for websites, again, usually for commercial purposes but also for propaganda purposes. The paid poster phenomena is very real on the internet.

Now the question has been raised, do we have political spammers on Thai Visa ?

Ask yourself this. What would motivate a person or people, day in day out, for months and years (appears to be a full time job) to post what is obviously bias political spam / propaganda messages on an internet forum ?

The obvious answer is $$$.

The second answer that comes to mind is out and out fanaticism.

[waza]

It is common knowledge that on the internet people can get hired to post articles, usually for commercial reasons, informative posts on blogs subtly promoting brands or products. It is a subtle type of spamming.

You can even hire teams of people to produce content for websites, again, usually for commercial purposes but also for propaganda purposes. The paid poster phenomena is very real on the internet.

Now the question has been raised, do we have political spammers on Thai Visa ?

Ask yourself this. What would motivate a person or people, day in day out, for months and years (appears to be a full time job) to post what is obviously bias political spam / propaganda messages on an internet forum ?

The obvious answer is $$$.

The second answer that comes to mind is out and out fanaticism.

Hmmm I agree, theses people may not be paid in money, but may have a vested interests in the organisation or person, under discussion.

You may believe a forum is for independant thought and subjective opinions, but it has a covert underbelly of special interest groups and cyber spin doctors, trying to change our ideas of reality.

Sometimes they are obvious, for example certain posts in the topics.....

Lady Boys Accuse Pattaya Foreign Police Volunteer Of Assault and Harrassed By Ftpa In Walking Street

But usually its less transparent........just my version of reality

Edited March 14, 2009 by waza

[sbk]

I hope this thread won't degenerate into baseless accusations and innuendo about specific forum members. If it does so, then be aware that those posters making such accusations will find themselves warned and perhaps suspended.

[rixalex]

There are a few questions that IMO have not been addressed with regard to Thaksin. The main one to me is with every yellow party member and all government officials over turning every rock in Thailand looking for a crime to charge Thaksin with; reality is, they didn't fine much at all. Actually, they found almost nothing. Simple tax fraud which was probably an accounting error. I am quite sure that Thaksin never did his own taxes and it is likely that he didn't even sign himself.

People with as much money as Thaksin, do not need to steal from the people. He was a billionaire by US standards

If cases against Thaksin were put together quickly, you'd be saying that they had been trumped up.

If you know anything about the Thai judiciary, you would know that things do progress slowly and are also open to be being deliberately delayed by various tactics used by the accused - fleeing the country being one such example. There is a back-log of cases against Mr Thaksin which can not go to trial in his absence.

The case of which he has been convicted by the way does not concern tax fraud, it concerns a conflict of interest in his wife's purchase of some land.

As for rich people not needing to steal, that was the error in judgement so many of us made when we supported Mr Thaksin's rise to leadership.

[rixalex]

It is common knowledge that on the internet people can get hired to post articles, usually for commercial reasons, informative posts on blogs subtly promoting brands or products. It is a subtle type of spamming.

You can even hire teams of people to produce content for websites, again, usually for commercial purposes but also for propaganda purposes. The paid poster phenomena is very real on the internet.

Now the question has been raised, do we have political spammers on Thai Visa ?

Ask yourself this. What would motivate a person or people, day in day out, for months and years (appears to be a full time job) to post what is obviously bias political spam / propaganda messages on an internet forum ?

The obvious answer is $$$.

The second answer that comes to mind is out and out fanaticism.

MC2, as one yourself who expresses a passioniate political belief, why is it so hard for you to understand that others too can strongly believe in something without having ulterior motives? Just as you find it hard to fathom what drives the opinion of some, believe you me there are many that scratch their heads, myself included, at the dogged and relentless defence you put up for Mr Thaksin in the face of over-whelming evidence against him. But you do and i respect that as being your opinion.

I think the truth is you do know and understand how politics can engender strong feelings in people, enough even for them to spend hours of a day debating the matter, but you enjoy floating these suggestions about others on the forum as it serves to insult them and belittle their point of view. Some would call that flaming.

If you have evidence about a member then show it. If you don't then shut up.

Edited March 14, 2009 by rixalex

[flying]

If a person will not admit to the above then they are a one-sided fanatic,

Politics aside this statement should be in a slang dictionary under pot calls kettle black

[ballpoint]

People with as much money as Thaksin, do not need to steal from the people. He was a billionaire by US standards

Are you really that naive? How do you think many people with as much money as Thaksin came to have as much money as Thaksin in the first place? Especially in the third world. And in the West, lets see, Allan Bond, Robert Maxwell, Bernie Madoff, Martha Stewart.....

[Ricardo]

People with as much money as Thaksin, do not need to steal from the people. He was a billionaire by US standards

Or at least, that was the theory, when he was first elected. I think most farangs welcomed him, at the time, in the hope that he would be happy with what he & his maid/gardener/driver had already amassed. Unfortunately it turned out not to be so.

On the lack of cases against Thaksin, it seems to be part of Thai culture, not to speak out against pu-yais, and I can certainly understand some poor civil-servant being unwilling to speak up, while there was ever any chance of the man returning. Even many politicians were criticised, for their apparent reluctance to come forward, perhaps for fear of implicating themselves.

But it was surely no mere 'slip of the pen' or accounting-mistake, which led the former-PM to change the law of the land a couple of days previously, to enable the Shin-Corp sale to go ahead ? And in the one case so far completed, he had clearly broken the law, and was thus found guilty & sentenced.

[Denim]

If you know anything about the Thai judiciary, you would know that things do progress slowly and are also open to be being deliberately delayed by various tactics used by the accused - fleeing the country being one such example.

It depends. Some of the people banged up in prison on LM charges were dealt with very quickly insomuch as their loss of liberty was very quick in coming. Having lots of money or influentual friends certainly helps in slowing things down. The Merc driver who drove into people at a bus stop springs to mind.

[mc2]

2. Thaskin was a self serving corrupt politician who committed horrific human rights violations and believed himself to be above the law.

Yes he was corrupt and he believed himself to be above the law. I agree with that.

The human rights issue is another thing. Yes he was responsible to a degree, you will find that at the time this was a policy supported by Thais from the very top to the very bottom, with very few exceptions. Now this does not absolve Thaksins responsibility in the matter but it puts it in perspective. To those who would point their finger at Thaksin and with a quivering lower lip say "It was him, he did it, he murdered 2000 people!" fail to understand there was more to it and it was more complex than that.

But for his role in the matter, whatever that turns out to be after a proper investigation, he should face justice.

For sure, he did a lot of good for Thailand before the zombies hijacked the place.

[h90]

1. The rural masses standard of living rose significantly under Thaskin. They were not tricked or brainwashed into loving him. They love him because he was the first guy to ever come around and treat them as a powerful voting demographic.

2. Thaskin was a self serving corrupt politician who committed horrific human rights violations and believed himself to be above the law.

If a person will not admit to the above then they are a one-sided fanatic, and there is no point in debating with them.

I don't see anything he did for the rural masses....He spoke with them and he gave them massive loans which ended with the fact that many lost their land and being more poor than before.

As well don't forget Thaksin was involved in the 1997 crises. Than the Democrats repaired the country, but they didn't have much money. When TRT came into power the country was well off and there was more money for everyone.

Some of the good things (the health-care) was already planned under the Democrats and Thaksin just followed the plan.

On his first term Thaksin modernized some parts of Thailand (customs, Internet, telecom) but these positive things later came to a complete halt and in some cases even back.

If Abisit and Newin give some money they will be loved the same and Thaksin will be forgotten. Recall how they loved Chavalit and who cares Chavalit now??

In my opinion Thaksin had the best chances to be the next 20 years premier and going into the book of history as the best premier Thailand ever had......But instead he destroyed himself.....If he would have been just half as corrupt as he was......

[h90]

It is common knowledge that on the internet people can get hired to post articles, usually for commercial reasons, informative posts on blogs subtly promoting brands or products. It is a subtle type of spamming.

You can even hire teams of people to produce content for websites, again, usually for commercial purposes but also for propaganda purposes. The paid poster phenomena is very real on the internet.

Now the question has been raised, do we have political spammers on Thai Visa ?

Ask yourself this. What would motivate a person or people, day in day out, for months and years (appears to be a full time job) to post what is obviously bias political spam / propaganda messages on an internet forum ?

The obvious answer is $$$.

The second answer that comes to mind is out and out fanaticism.

Complete away from the Pro/Contra Thaksin postings, I know from Austria that political parties pay advertising agencies to improve their image in the public and postings in forum and newspapers are a part of it.

(Changing the entries in Wikipedia was also a part of it......).

So welcome in the modern world....For sure Thaksin let some people post at least in Thai language forums and for sure PAD let some people post.