10,000 Police, Soldiers, Security Officials Deployed To Keep Security At Government House

[kenai]

At 4000 a head you would have most the PAD changing shirts and your friend is right that crowd would be in the millions all right!

Well ive seen the 2-500 thrown out there. My wife was at the Bangkok rally a week ago. She laughed when I told her about the 2-500. She told me if there was anyone getting paid at the rally she would have heard all about it. I

I wouldnt be surprised if there was money exchanged to pay for lodging, gas or food etc. there has been an on-going request for donations im sure the money is being spent. If they are able to help with travel cost then I say great.

To think that people are protesting to get paid is ignorance to what there cause is. It shows a complete lack of understanding of the other-side. And it shows your buying into propaganda.

I was at a rally with my wife and these were not people there to make money. They were intense about their cause and well informed on it as well.

If my wife doesnt know about payouts and she supports the reds, its interesting how the other side would know all about it.

I know dozens of people in Chiang Dao, who were paid to protest in Chiang Mai, to support Thaksin. I also know people from Chiang Mai, who got paid to protest. I also know a lady, who was paying out 200 Baht a head for Thaksin, during both the TRT election and PPP election, in Chiang Mai, to people who voted for Thaskin. So nobody can tell me that Thaksin doesn't pay and hasn't paid protesters in the past.

I believe you, when you say, that you haven't heard of it, kenai. Stick around and you will see it for yourself one day. Maybe get a little more fluent in Thai, too and you will overhear some people talking about it. It's no secret to the Thais (at least up here in the North). Red supporters aren't shy to talk about receiving money for protesting, if they around somebody they trust. Or even, if they don't trust, they won't think that a foreigner will understand them anyways and usually talk freely, unless they know you speak and understand fluent Thai (or Chiang Mai language)

(Sorry, I am making an assumption, by thinking that you must not be able to understand Thai very well, otherwise, you would probably have heard people talk about the bribes in the past. Please don't take it personal)

No my thai isnt the best.

My wife is pretty fluent though being born and raised in the Chiang Mai area. I dont doubt there could be people given 200 baht to attend a rally if your traveling 8 hours and spending a few days it doesnt cover expenses and it isnt the reason people are protesting. Do you live in the north? You seem to not understand the feelings many here have for Thaksin and this movement. You seem to be claiming these people just want to make a baht and dont know UDD from PAD.

Dont forget you know all these people - and you also know someone who says they are now paying out 4000 baht. People can be incredibly gullable. We heard twice here that Thaksin had been shot - rumors. Spread by those meaning to spread and those simply believing what they heard.

[monkfish]

At 4000 a head you would have most the PAD changing shirts and your friend is right that crowd would be in the millions all right!

Well ive seen the 2-500 thrown out there. My wife was at the Bangkok rally a week ago. She laughed when I told her about the 2-500. She told me if there was anyone getting paid at the rally she would have heard all about it. I

I wouldnt be surprised if there was money exchanged to pay for lodging, gas or food etc. there has been an on-going request for donations im sure the money is being spent. If they are able to help with travel cost then I say great.

To think that people are protesting to get paid is ignorance to what there cause is. It shows a complete lack of understanding of the other-side. And it shows your buying into propaganda.

I was at a rally with my wife and these were not people there to make money. They were intense about their cause and well informed on it as well.

If my wife doesnt know about payouts and she supports the reds, its interesting how the other side would know all about it.

I know dozens of people in Chiang Dao, who were paid to protest in Chiang Mai, to support Thaksin. I also know people from Chiang Mai, who got paid to protest. I also know a lady, who was paying out 200 Baht a head for Thaksin, during both the TRT election and PPP election, in Chiang Mai, to people who voted for Thaskin. So nobody can tell me that Thaksin doesn't pay and hasn't paid protesters in the past.

I believe you, when you say, that you haven't heard of it, kenai. Stick around and you will see it for yourself one day. Maybe get a little more fluent in Thai, too and you will overhear some people talking about it. It's no secret to the Thais (at least up here in the North). Red supporters aren't shy to talk about receiving money for protesting, if they around somebody they trust. Or even, if they don't trust, they won't think that a foreigner will understand them anyways and usually talk freely, unless they know you speak and understand fluent Thai (or Chiang Mai language)

(Sorry, I am making an assumption, by thinking that you must not be able to understand Thai very well, otherwise, you would probably have heard people talk about the bribes in the past. Please don't take it personal)

No my thai isnt the best.

My wife is pretty fluent though being born and raised in the Chiang Mai area. I dont doubt there could be people given 200 baht to attend a rally if your traveling 8 hours and spending a few days it doesnt cover expenses and it isnt the reason people are protesting. Do you live in the north? You seem to not understand the feelings many here have for Thaksin and this movement. You seem to be claiming these people just want to make a baht and dont know UDD from PAD.

Dont forget you know all these people - and you also know someone who says they are now paying out 4000 baht. People can be incredibly gullable. We heard twice here that Thaksin had been shot - rumors. Spread by those meaning to spread and those simply believing what they heard.

I heard they were paying 8000 not to go!

[kurtgruen]

At 4000 a head you would have most the PAD changing shirts and your friend is right that crowd would be in the millions all right!

Well ive seen the 2-500 thrown out there. My wife was at the Bangkok rally a week ago. She laughed when I told her about the 2-500. She told me if there was anyone getting paid at the rally she would have heard all about it. I

I wouldnt be surprised if there was money exchanged to pay for lodging, gas or food etc. there has been an on-going request for donations im sure the money is being spent. If they are able to help with travel cost then I say great.

To think that people are protesting to get paid is ignorance to what there cause is. It shows a complete lack of understanding of the other-side. And it shows your buying into propaganda.

I was at a rally with my wife and these were not people there to make money. They were intense about their cause and well informed on it as well.

If my wife doesnt know about payouts and she supports the reds, its interesting how the other side would know all about it.

I know dozens of people in Chiang Dao, who were paid to protest in Chiang Mai, to support Thaksin. I also know people from Chiang Mai, who got paid to protest. I also know a lady, who was paying out 200 Baht a head for Thaksin, during both the TRT election and PPP election, in Chiang Mai, to people who voted for Thaskin. So nobody can tell me that Thaksin doesn't pay and hasn't paid protesters in the past.

I believe you, when you say, that you haven't heard of it, kenai. Stick around and you will see it for yourself one day. Maybe get a little more fluent in Thai, too and you will overhear some people talking about it. It's no secret to the Thais (at least up here in the North). Red supporters aren't shy to talk about receiving money for protesting, if they around somebody they trust. Or even, if they don't trust, they won't think that a foreigner will understand them anyways and usually talk freely, unless they know you speak and understand fluent Thai (or Chiang Mai language)

(Sorry, I am making an assumption, by thinking that you must not be able to understand Thai very well, otherwise, you would probably have heard people talk about the bribes in the past. Please don't take it personal)

No my thai isnt the best.

My wife is pretty fluent though being born and raised in the Chiang Mai area. I dont doubt there could be people given 200 baht to attend a rally if your traveling 8 hours and spending a few days it doesnt cover expenses and it isnt the reason people are protesting. Do you live in the north? You seem to not understand the feelings many here have for Thaksin and this movement. You seem to be claiming these people just want to make a baht and dont know UDD from PAD.

Dont forget you know all these people - and you also know someone who says they are now paying out 4000 baht. People can be incredibly gullable. We heard twice here that Thaksin had been shot - rumors. Spread by those meaning to spread and those simply believing what they heard.

I know, that when the PAD was out there protesting, People where furious in the North here, because they loved Thaksin and didn't think that he did anything wrong. Of course, part of the reason was, that the news was all one sided. People got the hear what TRT and the PPP wanted them to hear. NBT was nothing but a propaganda channel.

Since that time, a lot has changed. Most people I hear talking, just want all this fighting to stop. They are tired of reds and yellows and anyone else who might want to steer up trouble.

Some realize, that they still have their 30 Baht program (except it seems to work a little more efficient now), they still have their free electicity (and a little bit more) and some got a 2000 Baht stimulus handout. Road construction is finally advancing again and Abhisit is becoming mildly popular.

Now, they here the other side in the news...Thaskin's corruption and money grabbing, etc., Thaksin attacking Prem and some respected Privy councellors and more and more people saying that Thaksin opposes you know who.

Yes, the North was mainly all Pro-Thaksin before, no, that isn't the case anymore. There are still a lot of Thaksin supporters in the North, but a lot of them expect to get paid, in one form or another, too.

Like I said, I have no proof of my allegations, I can only give my word, that I am not trying to deceive or mislead anyone,

I also believe, that I have a pretty good inside into what is happening, considering I've only lived in Thailand for a little over 8 years. Of course any foreigner who thinks he knows what is really going in in this country, is only fooling himself, I think ;-) In the words of a long term Expat "Nothing in Thailand is what it seems"

I find it really hard to believe, that your wife doesn't even know about the past TRT/PPP election bribes in the past? I thought everyone in Chiang Mai knew about those??? In fact, personally, I don't know any voters in Chiang Mai, who didn't get paid. I do know some in Chiang Dao, who didn't get paid, but I also know some who did.

Anyways, from my perspective, Thaksin will hopefully be a non-issue soon and only remembered as part of Thailand's corrupt history.

Weather or not, us foreigners know what is really going on, won't be of much importance two days from now.

Personally, I think we will all be in for a surprise and both sides will scratch their heads wondering what really happened ;-)

[kurtgruen]

I heard they were paying 8000 not to go!

Now that's an offer, I would take them up on :-) Really, it should be 40,000 for foreigners, though or 80,000, if Thaksin did the paying, as his ratio was always 10:1 (Thai People 20 Baht, White Trash 200 Baht National Park Fees, during Thakins time)

[sriracha john]

People put acid inside the water and donated to the reds. Nuttawut said they found the caps were not closed tight.

Aren't these people trippy enough without adding LSD into the equation?

Edited April 6, 2009 by sriracha john

[LevelHead]

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/04/07...cs_30099775.php

Red shirts more than just a bunch of Thaksin's supporters

By Pravit Rojanaphruk

The Nation

Published on April 7, 2009

"Fifty-fifty", was the response of a key member of the Democratic Alliance Against Dictatorship (DAAD) when asked about the chances of his red-shirt movement overthrowing Abhisit Vejjajiva in the not-too-distant future.

The figure is as much a guesstimate as it is a description of the uncertain political situation in which Thailand finds itself at this juncture in political history - fifty-fifty. Anything is possible.

Tomorrow, DAAD paramount leader in exile, convicted former premier Thaksin Shinawatra, hopes his followers will fight to restore "democracy" by showing their force in a sea of red. Those who show up tomorrow will include many more than passive Thaksin supporters and those organised by former Thai Rak Thai politicians from upcountry. It will be an unholy alliance of many groups wanting to tear down the old political order.

First are those opposing the September 2006 military coup which, incidentally, ousted Thaksin. Some of these people were never Thaksin fans. This writer knows of one female member, formerly very actively supporting the anti-Thaksin People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD). But the coup convinced her that the military and the aristocracy who pull the strings were the greater of the two evils and had to go. Those with long-enough memory will also recall that DAAD co-leader Weng Tojirakarn was more than once on the PAD stage ranting against Thaksin too.

Many young reds who opposed the coup felt military intervention should have been consigned to history, as they had only a faint memory of the 1991 coup that ousted then premier Chatichai Choonhavan. They have a contempt for military adventure in politics.

Group two are those who feel Thailand needs to move away from a semi-feudal system where politics is orchestrated behind the scenes. They also want to see the monarchy institution truly outside politics.

A group of netizens, calling itself FARED (First Aid Red) have volunteered at the Government House rally site to offer first aid despite the fact none was trained in medicine. However, they have hired a nurse or two to teach them.

Some educated red shirts want to see a much more limited monarchy institution, like those in Great Britain or Japan, and have vented their frustrations on the Internet. A string of arrests and jailings, such as that of Suwicha Thakor, who got a 10-year term last week for lese majeste and for breaking the computer crime Act, have made it clear there are people unhappy about the current arrangement. The crackdown and the counter-reaction continues as police are eyeing to arrest more. With the Internet coming under close surveillance, one resorted to spreading attacks on the monarchy by distributing leaflets and was reportedly arrested on Saturday in Khon Kaen. These people pose a challenge to the commonly accepted belief that all Thais revere the monarchy institution and they want change.

The PAD's New Politics, which proposed limited electoral rights, and their seizure of the airports, also provided a turning point for others who have joined the red-shirt movement.

Group three are fuelled by general insults handed down by a large section of the press describing the protesters as a hired lowly educated mob who don't know what voting and democracy is all about - only serving to make more working class red and angry. These people can be found riding the bus back home from rally sites late in the evening, hating the anti-Thaksin media as well as PAD's New Politics which they regard as insulting and elitist.

So this is a war between new money, represented by Thaksin and his associates, some die-hard leftists, a young middle class fed up with old politics, educated as well as lesser educated middle and working class versus the PAD - which claims to represent the monarchy and moral politics and is run by the few and supported by the military, the bureaucracy, old money and old elites.

Now that Privy Council president Prem Tinsulanond has been openly dragged into the feud through Thaksin's allegation that he's behind the coup, the battleground is even clearer.

The PAD's momentum surged when it attracted people from many walks whom Thaksin had made his enemy during his abusive and egocentric rule as prime minister. Now the red DAAD have attracted many diverse groups who feel upset about the old powers and are willing to use Thaksin, and let Thaksin use them, to achieve victory.

This unholy alliance is getting stronger by the day as more and more people feel emboldened by the sheer numbers challenging the old establishment. And it's definitely more than just about Thaksin or PAD, Sondhi Limthongkul or even Prem.

[LevelHead]

Like I said, I have no proof of my allegations,

Based upon your own admission you have no proof, making any allegations is pure nonsense, based on hearsay, and it can be libel or defamitive. You are well advised not to spread your rumours and hearsay on the internet masking it as "truth".

If you honestly think that everyone in Chiang Mai got "paid" then you clearly are deluded, or you are deliberatly posting misleading information that you know you cannot back up with any proof whatsoever.

Have you attended "too many PAD speeches" ?

[samgrowth]

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/04/07...cs_30099775.php

Red shirts more than just a bunch of Thaksin's supporters

By Pravit Rojanaphruk

The Nation

Published on April 7, 2009

Some educated red shirts want to see a much more limited monarchy institution, like those in Great Britain or Japan, and have vented their frustrations on the Internet. A string of arrests and jailings, such as that of Suwicha Thakor, who got a 10-year term last week for lese majeste and for breaking the computer crime Act, have made it clear there are people unhappy about the current arrangement. The crackdown and the counter-reaction continues as police are eyeing to arrest more. With the Internet coming under close surveillance, one resorted to spreading attacks on the monarchy by distributing leaflets and was reportedly arrested on Saturday in Khon Kaen. These people pose a challenge to the commonly accepted belief that all Thais revere the monarchy institution and they want change.

The above paragraph is NOT true at all. Thai people, educated or not, living in Thailand or overseas loves the monarchy. Because of the fear of LM, those that vented their frustrations on the Internet are Farang (not Thai). Looking at the PAD supports overseas, these people would like to see MORE monarchy institution, and NOT less.

Publishing or questioning anything on Monarchy is not allow. It doesn't matter if Nation does it, it is against ThaiVisa rules. If moderator think it is OK to quote from reliable source (like Nation), I have a lot more of quote from equally reliable source (like Economists) which i would like to share.

Please remove before I call the LM hotline. Anyone have the LM informer hotline numbers? How much is the reward I can collect for informing? Does that apply to Farang informers?

Edited April 6, 2009 by samgrowth

[henryalleman]

People put acid inside the water and donated to the reds. Nuttawut said they found the caps were not closed tight.

They said about it here:

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/rea...mp;keyword=acid

If this rumour is correct I presume at least a few dozens of people will be taking to hospital.

I think the reds are more and more desperate.

[henryalleman]

What numbers do you see currently?

Is there any chance the numbers wil increase tomorrow by the 8th?

can 300,000 people show up? On paper yes, but I just don't see how that many people really love Mr. T to actually show up.

I guess we will have to wait and see what numbers show up in 2 days. When he refused to meet last week it seemed to indicate there must be a card in his hand hes waiting to play.

here is what I consider a fair and very basic description of a run-down of events. Please let me know if Thomas Bell is accurate in his reporting.

Telegraph.co.uk

By Thomas Bell in Bangkok

Last Updated: 6:38PM BST 05 Apr 2009

One side is led by Thaksin Shinawatra. The former telecoms billionaire and deposed prime minister is a dubious champion of democracy. During his six years in power Mr Thaksin launched a "war on drugs" in which up to 2,000 alleged dealers were summarily executed by the police.

3000 with 50 % not related to drugs

I will give you 3000 and the 50%

In government he was dogged by corruption allegations, apparently unable to distinguish his own business interests from those of the country.

true nothing new with politicians of emerging countries i suppose

He was no friend of the free media, although censorship is worse now than it was in Thaksin's day.

not sure about that, I recall that he controlled almost all media beside ASTV

Sondhi Limthongkul aka Leaderof the PAD aka Thai Media Mogul used media under his control to start the whole anti-thaksin movement

this is a man who lobbied against Thailand paying off foreign debt and apparently his own debt. When it didnt work he turned against his friend and became enemys.

On the other side is... who? Mr Thaksin has many vehement enemies among the middle and upper classes. It is difficult to tell how many because in Thailand opinion pollsters never ask the only question that really counts – who would you vote for?

I don't get that part " question that really counts – who would you vote for?"

Have you ever seen an across the board poll of thai citizens asking - who would you vote for? If its been done its never been published

They particularly object to Thaksin's alleged corruption and his government's challenge to Thailand's rigid social hierarchy. Qualms over the deadly "war on drugs", on the other hand, are mostly limited to hand-wringing foreign liberals.

I don't know any middle class Thai who don't know about it. That it only concerns foreign liberals is pure nonsense.

I agree most middle class do know about it, even the poor. Thing is do they care, would it affect how they vote? How many thai citizens appreciate human rights, im sure many were pleased considering it a clean-up - how many know or honestly care much about Rohingya boat people.

These well-healed opponents control most major institutions. They also claim they are acting to "protect the king", and this is where it gets difficult.

At Thaksins time, he controlled almost all major institutions, even courts, EC, police etc etc

I dont think its surprising in an emerging country who is in the very infancy of democracy at best (and as of lately it cant be called even this), to have a Prime Minister with far more power then is truly democratic.

Strict laws make any criticism of the monarchy punishable with up to 12 years in jail – in practice almost any discussion of the monarchy is prohibited. Last week a man, the breadwinner for his family, was jailed for 10 years for posting "insulting" pictures of the royal family online.

he modified pictures, that is something different than posting real pictures. Posting fake pictures about other people would be illegal in almost every country on this planet. Also to add that beside him there is no one in jail for LM. Most probably this guy will be also pardoned. The author is trying to create a complete wrong picture of the situtation.

No comment

King Bhumibol, 81, is "above politics" and he is widely and sincerely loved. Many Thais credit him with steering their country's modern development and intervening to solve periodic crises. The country's official doctrine of "sufficiency economics" is the king's own invention.

When politicians claim to act in the king's name they often accuse their opponents of disloyalty, potentially punishable by 12 years in jail. That can make politics very hard to talk about. Bhumibol, for his part, has been mostly silent.

In 2006 Mr Thaksin was accused of disloyalty to the king and overthrown by a military coup. Nevertheless, with Thaksin in exile, voters returned his supporters to power in elections at the end of 2007.

he was not overthrowned because of disloyalty. The election 2007 was won only because of massive vote buying

here is a paragraph from wikipedia (thaksin)

Election results and by-elections

Thaksin's TRT Party won the widely boycotted elections, gaining 462 seats in Parliament, with the ratio of voters to no-voters 16:10, not counting non-voters.^[105]

However, by-elections were needed for 40 TRT candidates who failed to win the minimum 20% required by the 1997 Constitution in an uncontested seat.^[106][107] The Democrat Party refused to contest them^[106] and, along with the PAD, petitioned the Central Administrative Court to cancel them.^[108] Chamlong Srimuang declared that the PAD would ignore the elections and "go on rallying until Thaksin resigns and Thailand gets a royally-appointed prime minister".^[109]

They were held on 25 April and resulted in the TRT winning 25 of the constituencies and losing 2. Yet another round of by-elections on 29 April was scheduled for 13 constituencies. The Thai Rak Thai Party was later accused and found guilty of paying smaller parties to contest the election to fulfill the 20% rule, while the Democrat Party was accused of paying smaller parties not to. The by-elections were suspended by the Constitution Court while it deliberated whether to annul the main elections. In press interviews in exile, Thaksin was to insist on his technical majority.^[110]

Thakskin had already won the election - to say there was massive vote buying, is to make it sound like voters got a 100 baht at the polling booth - it wasnt that way.

Im not saying its right at all. Just saying its not the way it happened. The coup happened in Sept. before the Oct re-election. Maybe they knew what the next likely results were going to be.

If Thaksin is a hero to the poor why wouldnt he have the majority support?

Mr Thaksin's one great virtue as a democrat is that he and his supporters have won each of three elections so far this decade.

and all with a never seen before electoral fraud

He is popular because for the first time in Thai history he campaigned on policies aimed at the rural majority – and then delivered. He earned massive admiration for schemes such as affordable health care.

and even more for credits which caused many farmers to loose their land, while he went thru Issan with Arab investors who wanted to buy land.

The pro-Thaksin government elected after the coup lasted less than a year. Protesters, some of them armed with golf clubs, bombs and guns, overran first Government House and then both Bangkok's airports, costing the economy untold millions.

OK there was one gun seen, but not even one evidence of a bomb. Only a few guards had golf clubs most other had nothing.

I think you must have been reading the local Bkk press and I was out of the country seeing and reading press in the US. What I saw was mobs of people with yellow here and there committing violence. It can all be seen on youtube. I also saw the airport closed, heard of tourist killed in car accidents on there way to other airports. The airport is an International airport and has no part in politics of thailand. It was a stupid move and it cost the country dearly.

They wore the royal colour, yellow, and claimed they were acting to protect the king from Thaksin's alleged republicanism.

one point of many.....

The movement received the public endorsement of the queen.

The People's Alliance for Democracy, as the movement is misleadingly called, argued that democracy does not work in Thailand because the peasantry are too simple to vote. They want a "new politics" in which 70 per cent of parliament is appointed.

always the same nonsense, not true!

The idea was thrown out there for a time - either way, this government was not elected and still calls itself democratic. - not true

Last year's protests found widespread support among the conservative media which, in its rush to finish the Thaksinites for ever, abandoned factual reporting.

Thaksin denies that he is a republican, although some of his supporters undoubtedly are – or they are now.

At the end of last year a court dissolved the elected government

because of massive fraud in the last election

and the army brass summoned political bosses to hoist a new prime minister, Abhisit Vejjajiva, to power. The leaders of the airport protests were never punished – one even became foreign minister.

which PAD leader got foreign minister

Key appointments in Abhisit's government included PAD leader Kasit Piromya as Foreign Minister Massage parlor tycoon Pornthiva Nakasai was appointed Deputy Commerce Minister. Abhisit denied that there was any bargaining or deal-making behind the appointment of his Cabinet (wikipedia)

Now Thaksin has dropped his bomb. In live video addresses to rallies around the country he identified two retired generals who are close advisers to the king and a small group of top judges as the conspirators who plotted his 2006 ousting and have allegedly been invisibly pulling Thailand's strings ever since.

The government is in a funk, panicking about how to block the transmissions. The army is said to be furious: Thaksin has broken the omerta and the government could not stop him. Commentators say he has gone too far and newspapers are openly demanding censorship to stop the revelations being heard.

government did not try to block it. I think nice to see how Thaksin discredit himself

Yet although the people Thaksin named have offered desultory denials, no one is seriously disputing the truth of his revelations. Apparently that it is not the point – in Thai politics the truth is not meant for public consumption.

Thailand aspires to be a serious country, a Western ally and a destination for tourists and investment, yet in the past few years the "land of smiles" has been more like the land of lies. A light cast on what takes place in the comfortable sitting rooms of power is long overdue.

so half true half nonsense.

50% is better then I give most the english papers here regarding politics Im sure I come across as a big Thaksin fan, honestly I just like to get to the truth. Im a fan of democracy and human rights. This is Thailands battle and I really dont consider myself a part of it. I pay taxes and vote in my own country.

(somthing with the quote tags wrong)

Quoting Wikipedia has no value, because its proven dozens of time that its very easy to manipulate.

[henryalleman]

I read in this topic many times, defending the democracy - restore the democracy.

Ladies and gentleman before doing this, its essential that there is some kind of democracy in Thailand.

IMHO Thailand never was and will never be a democracy as long as the society is build on a feudal system.

does people still honestly believe that the current stringent implementation of Lese Majesty laws is to protect the monarchy, not at all my friends its misused to protect the feudal and cast system. Its the perfect political tool to silence the people.

its a shame we can't have an debate on it. Again a prove of an undemocratic political system wo don't allow free speech.

Despite all this I'm still convinced that Abhisit is much better for Thailand's future than Thaksin. I only regret that he is in exactly the same position as Chuan was before. He must be really very prudent not to upset the military and the old political crocodiles.

[kurtgruen]

Like I said, I have no proof of my allegations,

Based upon your own admission you have no proof, making any allegations is pure nonsense, based on hearsay, and it can be libel or defamitive. You are well advised not to spread your rumours and hearsay on the internet masking it as "truth".

If you honestly think that everyone in Chiang Mai got "paid" then you clearly are deluded, or you are deliberatly posting misleading information that you know you cannot back up with any proof whatsoever.

Have you attended "too many PAD speeches" ?

Just because you don't like to hear it, doesn't mean that it isn't true; and quit misquoting me. what I said was "In fact, personally, I don't know any voters in Chiang Mai, who didn't get paid. I do know some in Chiang Dao, who didn't get paid, but I also know some who did." , which is the truth. Every Thai person I talked to so far, in person (not in this forum of course), living in Chiang Mai, when talking about this issue, said they got paid. Now granted, I don't talk to that many Thai people in Chiang Mai and the ones I do talk to live mainly in the same area, but I am not the one lying....

It has been proven many times now, that TRT and PPP bought votes. Both Parties have been convicted and disbanded, because of election fraud of some of their executive. I suggest you get your (red) head out of the sand and look at reality.

[h90]

Ongoing rate at the moment:

If bringing 20 people for the demonstration: 50.000 Baht.

Anyone heard that?

It sounds possible: 2500 per head including travel, by cutting out all the middlemen.

[h90]

I read in this topic many times, defending the democracy - restore the democracy.

Ladies and gentleman before doing this, its essential that there is some kind of democracy in Thailand.

IMHO Thailand never was and will never be a democracy as long as the society is build on a feudal system.

does people still honestly believe that the current stringent implementation of Lese Majesty laws is to protect the monarchy, not at all my friends its misused to protect the feudal and cast system. Its the perfect political tool to silence the people.

its a shame we can't have an debate on it. Again a prove of an undemocratic political system wo don't allow free speech.

Despite all this I'm still convinced that Abhisit is much better for Thailand's future than Thaksin. I only regret that he is in exactly the same position as Chuan was before. He must be really very prudent not to upset the military and the old political crocodiles.

Well what countries do have Democracy??

I would rank Thailand still as more democratic than USA (with just 2 choices of similar parties). Also countries like Germany have a political structure that almost can't change much. Others like Italy have a much better structure but democracy doesn't work as well.

So I don't see Thailand much worse.

Army, Police, courts must be changed but no one, neither democrats nor Thaksin nor Army government tried to do anything.

[hammered]

"parrotting" you have a way with words.

Not only am i "parroting" Thaksin's legal argument but also a JUDGMENT made by the SUPREME COURT no less in 1985!

Not sure why they changed there mind in 2009? may be they just needed a conviction eh?

May be he decided it was OK to buy the land based on that case? don't you think so?

There is no precedent in Thai law which is based on (Roman) code. Each case is judged entirely on its own merits regardless of previous decisions. This was at its clearest on the difference in decision between the Sanan and Thaksin asset concealment cases which were very similar. However, with cases judged on their own merits and no precedent the decisions are not contradictory unless viewed through a western english common law prism, which is not applicable. Similar the FIDF or any other case people try to compare.

[hammered]

Whow, I was just watching Abhisit's TV adress a few minutes ago, with a good Thai friend, who has many friends who are Reds. I told him, that I expected the numbers to be small on the 8th, in Bangkok, but he said...."They pay lot of money you know, I think there will be lot of people" When I asked him how much money, he said 4000 Baht. I just about fell off my chair. Thaksin must really be going for it.

This could turn from a non-event into something very dangerous yet. I hope not. Well, I guess we'll all find out, in two days, how many people 4000 Baht per person can buy.

That is a very high figure, though and shows that Thaksin is really desperate for bodies on the 8th.

If he is really paying 4000 Baht, my 20,000 Red Troll estimate will be wrong, because not many people can resist making that much money, for a few days work, esspecially, when Abhisit just promised them safe passage to Bangkok, among other things. Then, they see the massage chairs on the news, in front of Government House and all of a sudden, it looks very good....nearly a month's wages and free foot massages for a few days of clapping feet and hearts. Tempting :-)

You better get down there Koo. Take some pictures for us, while you are there. Sorry, don't know where to go collect your 4000.

I dunno what people are paying and wont try to guess. There will be an unpaid hardcore plus a paid group to boost numbers. However, something that shouldnt be forgotten is that reds and PTP are tied very much together and the hand that ties them together has asked PTP and ex-TRT to join in and bring their supporters. The reds will get a big crowd - I wont try to guess how many (they say 300-500K) - if the politicans join in. That is one big advantage reds have in the numbers game over PAD who didnt have an organised politcal party so tied to them. PTP feudal leaders can muster quite few from their feudal domain. With hundreds of politicans that quickly adds up to big numbers. Those particular sup[porters though will tend to not be the ideological ones but the make the numbers up ones.

[Koo82]

Regarding people, there are 2 sides now:

- One is demanding their rights to vote for the party bringing benefits to them. This side demands everyone has the same right and their majority votes must be honored. They don't accept a coup either direct or indirect. They have been used, controlled, forced and threatened for 70 years. They know their tax feeds the government and they have to right to choose which government they want. This side wants Thailand to develop because they will be better at the same time.

- One is supporting the ruling class and knocking the competitor by all means including supporting yellow PAD and ignoring wrong doers of their side. This side does not support the idea of 1 person 1 vote. Many people from this side are government officials who think they are big and right. They think the other side is low and do not deserve to be respected. They refuse to improve. If Thailand is poor or rich, they are still getting benefits. Example: when people discussed how to develop train system in Thailand, train employees protested.

[h90]

Regarding people, there are 2 sides now:

- One is demanding their rights to vote for the party bringing benefits to them. This side demands everyone has the same right and their majority votes must be honored. They don't accept a coup either direct or indirect. They have been used, controlled, forced and threatened for 70 years. They know their tax feeds the government and they have to right to choose which government they want. This side wants Thailand to develop because they will be better at the same time.

usual communist blabla when they loose.....

[jbowman1993]

Regarding people, there are 2 sides now:

- One is demanding their rights to vote for the party bringing benefits to them. This side demands everyone has the same right and their majority votes must be honored. They don't accept a coup either direct or indirect. They have been used, controlled, forced and threatened for 70 years. They know their tax feeds the government and they have to right to choose which government they want. This side wants Thailand to develop because they will be better at the same time.

- One is supporting the ruling class and knocking the competitor by all means including supporting yellow PAD and ignoring wrong doers of their side. This side does not support the idea of 1 person 1 vote. Many people from this side are government officials who think they are big and right. They think the other side is low and do not deserve to be respected. They refuse to improve. If Thailand is poor or rich, they are still getting benefits. Example: when people discussed how to develop train system in Thailand, train employees protested.

You forgot the third side Koo

- The Thaksin "I want my money back and don't really care about anyone or anything, except for that."

I could see how that would be easy to miss....

[hammered]

Regarding people, there are 2 sides now:

- One is demanding their rights to vote for the party bringing benefits to them. This side demands everyone has the same right and their majority votes must be honored. They don't accept a coup either direct or indirect. They have been used, controlled, forced and threatened for 70 years. They know their tax feeds the government and they have to right to choose which government they want. This side wants Thailand to develop because they will be better at the same time.

- One is supporting the ruling class and knocking the competitor by all means including supporting yellow PAD and ignoring wrong doers of their side. This side does not support the idea of 1 person 1 vote. Many people from this side are government officials who think they are big and right. They think the other side is low and do not deserve to be respected. They refuse to improve. If Thailand is poor or rich, they are still getting benefits. Example: when people discussed how to develop train system in Thailand, train employees protested.

It is still easy to find quite a lot of people who arent on either side and who wouldnt characterise the sides as either you or a yellow supporter would.

[cmsally]

Land of Smiles becomes Land of lies - Telegraph

Land of Smiles becomes ..

Good summary I thought.

Over in the Bangkok Post, I see Kasit has put his foot in it yet again by comparing Thaksin to the Dalai Lama. When will he learn to keep his mouth shut!

Edited April 7, 2009 by cmsally

[Koo82]

I personally like this woman. She's a Thai living in LA and has flied back and forth to fight after 2549 coup until now.

[Koo82]

You forgot the third side Koo

- The Thaksin "I want my money back and don't really care about anyone or anything, except for that."

I could see how that would be easy to miss....

Your thought is the thought of ruling class.

They only care how they can maintain their power and their wealth. To them, someone in their side must be big, such as Prem. They don't see people in their eyes.

They think the reds fight for Khun Thaksin thinking the reds must have someone big to fight for. In fact the reds know each one of them is big.

They think Khun Thaksin cares for his money, same as what the ruling class care for their wealth.

[kurtgruen]

I dunno what people are paying and wont try to guess. There will be an unpaid hardcore plus a paid group to boost numbers. However, something that shouldnt be forgotten is that reds and PTP are tied very much together and the hand that ties them together has asked PTP and ex-TRT to join in and bring their supporters. The reds will get a big crowd - I wont try to guess how many (they say 300-500K) - if the politicans join in. That is one big advantage reds have in the numbers game over PAD who didnt have an organised politcal party so tied to them. PTP feudal leaders can muster quite few from their feudal domain. With hundreds of politicans that quickly adds up to big numbers. Those particular sup[porters though will tend to not be the ideological ones but the make the numbers up ones.

You made some good points there, hammered. Will be interesting to see how many turn out tomorrow. Meanwhile, the government seems to be using a peaceful approach to the situation. (at least verbally) PM Abhisit gave a good speech, last night, aimed at defusing the situation. Lets hope, the number of demonstrators remains low, so that there will be no bloodshed.

I think that Thaksin knows very well, that the important thing for him is, to get the people there, regardless of how you get them there, because once they are there, they will get swept up by the speeches and rheroric from the stages and become a powerful force, which is easily manipulated.

If there are in fact lots of people going to Bangkok for tomorrow, we should be seeing some pictures of that happening very soon. If I was Thaksin, I would have my people leaving now, just in case there are road blocks etc. to slow them down.

For now, I will stick with my estimate of 20,000, as I have predicted from the beginning. Maybe it's hopeful thinking...only time will tell ;-)

I do believe, that situations like this, should and can be resolved without bloodshed. I had the same belief, when the PAD demonstrated. I just hope that the REDS have their own version of somebody like Chamlong, who advocates for a peaceful resolution, rather than just a bunch of bloodthirsty villans, attempting to overthrow the Government for their own financial gain.

[sriracha john]

Land of Smiles becomes Land of lies - Telegraph

Land of Smiles becomes ..

Good summary I thought.

previously posted 66 posts ago as Post #1065 and discussed shortcomings subsequent to that.

Edited April 7, 2009 by sriracha john

[otherstuff1957]

Regarding people, there are 2 sides now:

- One is demanding their rights to vote for the party bringing benefits to them. This side demands everyone has the same right and their majority votes must be honored. They don't accept a coup either direct or indirect. They have been used, controlled, forced and threatened for 70 years. They know their tax feeds the government and they have to right to choose which government they want. This side wants Thailand to develop because they will be better at the same time.

This side is being used by a corrupt demagogue who is using them to further his own agenda, which consists of enriching himself and his family by any possible means. He does this by making grandiose promises which he 50% fulfills. In exchange for some benefits and a lot of smoke and mirrors, he is awarded with slavish devotion.

- One is supporting the ruling class and knocking the competitor by all means including supporting yellow PAD and ignoring wrong doers of their side. This side does not support the idea of 1 person 1 vote. Many people from this side are government officials who think they are big and right. They think the other side is low and do not deserve to be respected. They refuse to improve. If Thailand is poor or rich, they are still getting benefits. Example: when people discussed how to develop train system in Thailand, train employees protested.

The leadership of this side cannot be discussed.

[Koo82]

Regarding people, there are 2 sides now:

- One is demanding their rights to vote for the party bringing benefits to them. This side demands everyone has the same right and their majority votes must be honored. They don't accept a coup either direct or indirect. They have been used, controlled, forced and threatened for 70 years. They know their tax feeds the government and they have to right to choose which government they want. This side wants Thailand to develop because they will be better at the same time.

This side is being used by a corrupt demagogue who is using them to further his own agenda, which consists of enriching himself and his family by any possible means. He does this by making grandiose promises which he 50% fulfills. In exchange for some benefits and a lot of smoke and mirrors, he is awarded with slavish devotion.

- One is supporting the ruling class and knocking the competitor by all means including supporting yellow PAD and ignoring wrong doers of their side. This side does not support the idea of 1 person 1 vote. Many people from this side are government officials who think they are big and right. They think the other side is low and do not deserve to be respected. They refuse to improve. If Thailand is poor or rich, they are still getting benefits. Example: when people discussed how to develop train system in Thailand, train employees protested.

The leadership of this side cannot be discussed.

Read the Constitution Law. Prem can be discussed.

Regarding your first comment, how to knock a democratically elected Prime Minister: make a coup, change Constitution Law, set up a whole set to check and to charge, accuse him via all means he is corrupt. The funny thing is the ruling class have earned and taken benefits for so long. Anyone believes they don't corrupt?

PAD requested to change inspectors of their case on the 7th Oct, saying the people are not fair for them. So why do you expect Khun Thaksin to accept the set who inspected him?

Khun Thaksin said people in other countries don't care what happens to him because they know dead well what happens to a PM who were down by a coup. Ask Surayud who was the PM after Khun Thaksin if he got the true respect from other countries' leaders? Besides regular welcome, these leaders in deep don't give any point because "This guy came after Khun Thaksin were knocked by a coup. This guy did not come by election".

[Samuian]

There is ONLY one side to the events of the last couple of month, not two or three!

Whatever any of the "Red shirt" party may pledge, it's all about their founder, sponsor,

the "mighty wanna be overlord"!

It's all or nothin' - he will go the whole nine yards... I mean send anyone who wishes to go for him -

whatever the outcome!

It's about his face, his agenda, his billions, his power, his Thailand Incorp. !

None else!

Whatever it may take, we may see some very nasty moves!

some 2 billion US$ are at stake and much, much more - if he could only win!

But the noise he made - woke up everyone concerned..... let's see, the countdown is on..!

2000 police men alone for Prem's residence!

My guess is - he (Thaksin) has stepped over the line..

Heard some comments this mornin', people aren't happy about the redshirts any more,

time is starting to take it's toll!

Edited April 7, 2009 by Samuian

[kurtgruen]

500 Chiang Mai people head to Bangkok

Chiang Mai - About 500 members of the Rak Chiang Mai 51 group left for Bangkok Tuesday morning to join the "final battle" against the government Wednesday.

They left on 16 chartered buses and some vans.

Initially, 3 private bus operators could not provide them the chartered bus as contracted because the provincial transport office would not allow them to do so.

But the office agreed to let the firms provide the buses to the group at 9 am after the protesters besieged the transport office at 8:30 am.

The Nation

So only 500 people showed up at the airport to demonstrate against Abhisits arrival last week, in Chiang Mai and today, only 500 left for Bangkok. Whow, that's gotta' be a blow to Thaksin's ego. (I'm not saying that there won't be more coming tomorrow, just saying what it is starting to look like)

[jayboy]

Land of Smiles becomes Land of lies - Telegraph

Land of Smiles becomes ..

Good summary I thought.

previously posted 66 posts ago as Post #1065 and discussed shortcomings subsequent to that.

Really? I don't recall that there was all that much detailed discussion apart from a rather one dimensional screed from one of the usual uncritical PAD supporters. The general view was that the article was generally accurate, and had many more astute observastions than "shortcomings.It certainly skewered Thaksin's pretensions of supporting democracy.

If you want to sum up on a past discussion please at least go through the motions of truthfulness.I have already posted the extract which upsets the feudalists so much.By way of reference

"The government is in a funk, panicking about how to block the transmissions. The army is said to be furious: Thaksin has broken the omerta and the government could not stop him. Commentators say he has gone too far and newspapers are openly demanding censorship to stop the revelations being heard.

Yet although the people Thaksin named have offered desultory denials, no one is seriously disputing the truth of his revelations. Apparently that it is not the point – in Thai politics the truth is not meant for public consumption.

Thailand aspires to be a serious country, a Western ally and a destination for tourists and investment, yet in the past few years the "land of smiles" has been more like the land of lies. A light cast on what takes place in the comfortable sitting rooms of power is long overdue."