Without Equality, Tolerance For Gays Is Just A Myth

[yumidesign]

By PAISARN LIKHITPREECHAKUL

SPECIAL TO THE NATION

Published on April 3, 2009

THERE'S a myth, especially among foreigners, that Thailand is "tolerant" towards gays and transgenders. After all, hardly a day goes by without one seeing ladyboys or katoeys (male-to-female transgenders). Most Thais also like to believe in such a feel-good story, as well as spin it to foreigners. To say anything to the contrary will cause a loss of face. However, that kind of simplistic rationale based on visibility is akin to reasoning that Thai women must have equal rights to men because every other Thai appears to be female.

Even long-term foreign residents aren't likely to have heard about, for example, a bisexual woman who was burned alive in 2006, and the rape, murder and burning of a lesbian last year. Both cases were reported only in the Thai dailies. Rarely will they pick up stories on constant harassment and discrimination against katoeys, whose life options are severely limited. These "non-issues" are often brushed aside by Thais.

(the rest of the article is on.........)

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/04/03...on_30099543.php

[Jingthing]

Of course, the view of Thailand as a paradise for sexual minorities is clearly a myth.

[peter991]

Interesting opinion in The Nation. Thanks, YumiDesign for bring it to ThaiVisa forum readers attention. As I understand the author's thoughts, he is saying Thailand is basically homophobic.

The stopping of the Chiang Mai Gay Pride parade by activists was a very visible action. Compare this with what you see elsewhere in Thailand and you start to wonder who is correct. Ladyboys and katoeys everywhere! Are they tolerated or welcomed?

In the deepest corners of Issan, my ex-bf was a very obvious gay guy. He was welcomed in the village - so was I. There were even a few pre-pubescent ladyboys - no discrimination there.

Fast forward to 2009: My close Thai friend works for a government department in Bangkok. I will never meet his family as he will never come 'out of the closet.' to family or workmates.

Peter

[yumidesign]

Interesting opinion in The Nation. Thanks, YumiDesign for bring it to ThaiVisa forum readers attention. As I understand the author's thoughts, he is saying Thailand is basically homophobic.

The stopping of the Chiang Mai Gay Pride parade by activists was a very visible action. Compare this with what you see elsewhere in Thailand and you start to wonder who is correct. Ladyboys and katoeys everywhere! Are they tolerated or welcomed?

In the deepest corners of Issan, my ex-bf was a very obvious gay guy. He was welcomed in the village - so was I. There were even a few pre-pubescent ladyboys - no discrimination there.

Fast forward to 2009: My close Thai friend works for a government department in Bangkok. I will never meet his family as he will never come 'out of the closet.' to family or workmates.

Peter

I would like to think that it is not true. But like you i have had the same conflicting experiences in Esan with friends there and the events in Chiang Mai, whilst probably politically motivated do represent the establishment but may be not the masses

[peter991]

You would THINK that the main tourist areas would have less homophobia than Issan - but not so.

Try to relate this to Farangland: Sydney and Melbourne are a lot more tolerant about almost everything. Most rednecks live in country towns.

Peter

[yumidesign]

You would THINK that the main tourist areas would have less homophobia than Issan - but not so.

Try to relate this to Farangland: Sydney and Melbourne are a lot more tolerant about almost everything. Most rednecks live in country towns.

Peter

Not quite true. there are exceptions. Whilst living in The Kingdom, my home town is Mullumbimby Northern N S W where even straight men in the main street kiss and hug each other to say hello

[onni4me]

In the deepest corners of Issan, my ex-bf was a very obvious gay guy. He was welcomed in the village - so was I. There were even a few pre-pubescent ladyboys - no discrimination there.

Fast forward to 2009: My close Thai friend works for a government department in Bangkok. I will never meet his family as he will never come 'out of the closet.' to family or workmates.

I have had this experience as well. I suppose it's about loosing face again. Those on a higher steps of societys ladder are simply scared to be themselves. Competition may be fierce and this can be something of a losing game for them. Then, asked about ladyboys - many Thais consider them freaks of some kind and they may use their 'services' but look down at them at the same time.

Gays have been referred as something unnatural and the thing itself described being all about sexual frenzy by a revered high monk. He also added that for this reason gays can not become good monks. And as said above - what happened in Chiang Mai - is many times seen as a threat against the traditional (family) values. This, I know, has hurt many gay Thais and they feel somewhat rejected.

I feel that the question is not that simple, at all. I have some, if not nasty but unpleasent, comments and attitudes from some Thais and they tend to 'speak bad' behind ones back. This is often in situation where it's about money and business, especially when they don't get their way. Some Thais, even I have done nothing that I know of, don't greet me or talk to me. So, the question whether this really is a gay-welcoming society or not is under doubt.

I think in the future when economics may take a nasty turn and society with its old ways is in crisis, it may turn against minorities as it, unfortunately, has done so many times in history. We need to be alert.

[onni4me]

No reason to worry..? Here's more from the article since I feel that it should raise eyebrows.

The shutdown of the Chiang Mai Gay Pride parade in February burst the "gay paradise" bubble of many who now scramble to explain the violent display of homophobia by the Rak Chiang Mai 51 group. Alarmingly, even after shutting down the event, this particular red-shirt group continues to use its radio station to incite violence against gays and katoeys.

More liberal red-shirt supporters argue that homophobia is not written in their ideology. It needn't be. Preying on unpopular groups is a classic political tactic. Rak Chiang Mai 51's violence may be the most extreme case, but they were only trying to score points from the deep-seated homophobia in Thai society at large.

And they were not alone. While spreading outrageous accusations as facts, the local media shut their eyes and ears to the explanation of the organising NGOs about the parade's cultural sensitivity and its human rights and anti-HIV objectives.

Similarly, government agencies including the governor's office showed disapproval of the event, irrationally claiming that it would tarnish Chiang Mai's culture.

Their concerted opposition was then used by the disrupters to justify their action. Finally, the police not only didn't help, but even pressured the organisers to apologise to the abusers. None of these actors have so far take responsibility for the incident, showing implicit approval of the homophobic violence.

The past few years have shown the extent to which the Thai public is willing to allow homophobia. During their Sanam Luang protest, yellow-shirt protestors comfortably got away with a giant main stage sign taunting a political enemy with homophobic slander. Their mouthpiece, Manager newspaper, perpetrates the same practice.

But homophobia is far from new in Thailand. Despite the Buddha's core teaching of compassion, many Thai "Buddhists" believe that homosexuals and transgenders deserve low social status in the present because they supposedly committed sins - specifically adultery - in their past lives. Some even believe that homosexuality and transgenderism are, by themselves, sexual misconduct.

The cultural aspect of homophobia was obvious during the Chiang Mai incident. Some of the disrupters' signs branded gays and katoeys as "kheud" - a northern term for "inauspicious" or "unlucky".

Foreigners, naturally, are unlikely to be subject to such treatment. Rak Chiang Mai 51 even took the trouble of going around the city with loudspeaker trucks to warn foreigners to stay away from the event for risk of getting hurt.

Thailand's superficially observed "tolerance" for gays and katoeys is in fact the result of the non-confrontational culture. While disapproval of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) people is not worn on most people's public sleeve, the anonymity of the Internet, however, is rife with homophobic comments made in private.

The truth is, Thai-style "tolerance" only applies when you stay put in your place according to the cultural pecking order. Unsurprisingly, Chiang Mai Gay Pride organisers were told by the authorities that there would be no objection if the parade was held on some back streets and other activities shifted to inside a hotel.

The violence in Chiang Mai shows what happens when people refuse to stay put in their place and start demanding equal rights. Exceptions to the non-confrontation rule burst out when homophobia finds its outlet in those in very high or very low groups who think might makes right.

Some may view the concerted homophobia in Chiang Mai as an isolated occurrence, but it in fact sits well in the company of Rajabhat Institute's 1997 initiative to reject students who are "sexual deviants" and the Ministry of Culture's 2004 plan to get rid of the "homosexual presence" from television. These latter two examples of institutional homophobia are more worrisome. Political dissenters can shut down a gay event but it's actually power-wielding civil servants who can arbitrarily shut down civil rights under the legitimacy of government.

Despite Article 30 of the present constitution, which prohibits discrimination on the basis of sex, including sexual orientation and gender identity, Thai governments have yet to show signs of recognising the equal rights of LGBT people. The number of laws to ensure equality and non-discrimination for LGBT people remains the same: zero.

Although party to many UN human rights treaties, Thailand doesn't fare better internationally under those terms. Late last year, Thai activists met with the Foreign Ministry, requesting that Thailand sign the UN General Assembly statement calling for decriminalisation of homosexuality worldwide. The request fell upon deaf ears and Thailand abstained.

It is time the government re-examined the Foreign Ministry's claim that saying yes to the statement would affect relationships with countries with gay-hostile cultures.

To reject LGBT rights - an integral part of human rights - in favour of special treatment for cultural jingoism will expose Thailand's lack of integrity and encourage more homophobia on home turf.

To prevent the Chiang Mai incident from repeating itself elsewhere, the government must reaffirm all constitutionally guaranteed human rights as the minimum common denominator across the country.

Campaigning in Pattaya for the general election, Democrat Party leader Abhisit Vejjajiva said in 2007 that, "The Democrat Party hopes that Thai society will recognise human dignity for all persons including those of the "third sex" … All of us must put the highest priority on human rights, liberty and equality. There should be no discrimination on the grounds of sex. Society should accept the differences as they exist in the modern world."

Now that he's become the country's leader, it's time he makes good on those words. Or else, his government will continue to raise doubts on its human rights commitments.

The first step is to sign the UN non-discrimination statement, as US President Obama belatedly did by reversing the position of his predecessor. After that, he must bring to account government offices in Chiang Mai for tacitly condoning homophobic violence.

This will send a powerful signal throughout the country and the world that Thailand has no place for homophobia and that tolerance can only begin when all persons stand in equality, not the cultural pecking order.

Edited April 3, 2009 by onni4me

[Ijustwannateach]

Many Thais are quite closeted and the social oppression is definitely here, though its tone is less homophobic than in English-speaking countries. More the usual oppression of anything non-patriarchal- women, lesbians, gays, etc.

[yumidesign]

Of course, the view of Thailand as a paradise for sexual minorities is clearly a myth.

i have been thinking about your comments and whilst what you say is unfortunately true. This is true of the world at large also. In some places much worse than others. But i must say as a GWM in Thailand i have always felt welcomed, except of course by Thai Immigration, and have never felt threatened by anyone. I guess it comes down to what you expect. The inclusion of the Buddha in their upbringing is also a strong influence.

Being open and taking things on face value and here on two face value also helps.

Its not perfect, nothing is, to be human means that we are all flawed, its completely natural to be so

The article is too narrow in its outlook

[chrisyork]

I think there may be another factor at work here (in parallel to any discussion of homophobia). Thai's are notoriously shy of any overt display of non conformance with ANY social issue. This applies as much to heterosexual couples making out in public and to any overt, in your face, promotion of any issue. Could it be that we have a coming together of two factors here - reluctance to accept any overt public display together with unease about homosexuality?

My experience is that when individuals are known; in villages, amongst family members; there is very rarely any homophobia directed specifically against them. BUT as a general discussion homosexuality is regarded as unfortunate (aka unlucky?) in that it has the practical effect of limiting the ability to produce children (aka your support network in old age and infirmity).

The scary aspect to this is when political movements latch on to such ambivalence to create a demonising atmosphere. Nazi Germany here we go!

Chris

[dukkha]

I rarely visit the house I built in Isaan but it is maintained by my thai family.

I am considered a son in law by my partners family and all that goes with it...the village has had an openly gay kateoy teacher for over 30 years, yes lipstick et alii, and is loved by all from my observations, certainly not ridiculed at all....minority groups will always suffer in society in some way, and yes, Thailand aint no gay paradise for many thai gay men and wimmin...but in Isaan getting the next grain of rice in to your bowl seems of more importance than who is sleeping with whom and how often and for how much....taxi drivers in Bangkok always ask if I have a thai wife as my thai is above average for a farang, when I say I have a thai boyfriend, many respond negatively...but I aint gonna deny myself like I did in the West for all those years...scratch a heterosexual and you will often find a homopobe...it is in the too hard basket for most...as an old gay man am much more at ease living here from day to day than in the West...guess it is a matter of choice, live where you feel comfortable and that aint the souless West for me...cheers deahs... Dukkha

[onni4me]

...but I aint gonna deny myself like I did in the West for all those years...scratch a heterosexual and you will often find a homopobe...it is in the too hard basket for most...

I have always wondered why being gay is such a problem for other (mostly male)people. When pondering this, my feminist friend made up an explanation that might have some truth in it.

She said that male culture is basicly gay since they do have these very close friendships with other males, tap them on shoulder, hug them or even kiss them. Basicly anything else goes than sex. Just look at sports...

And gays brake the illusion by crossing over the line. They show what it is all about. It's love between males, although, in many occasions imprinted secretly in their brains. Very few would ever acknowledge that they dreamed about the possibility that there would be more than meets the eye. When there is even a hint about that it would be more, an average homophobic male becomes aggressive. They have never encountered their feelings and now they feel threatened. It is much easier to use force than really get your head straight.

Not that I agree totally to the above but it made me think that those straight guys that I have met and have been supportive, normally have been better fathers and husbands than average Joes. They have their values straight and love their families and accept different kind of ways of living. All this adds up to that they have used their brains and left the ape stage behind them.

[Scott]

I've always been sceptical about the 'gay paradise' idea. That exists in the world of money--and here, most anything that makes money is tolerated. I think the fact that people feel 'accepted' is a myth. I grew up in a small, rural area of the U.S., which was very homophobic. As long as you didn't admit to being gay, you were tolerated--at least by the people who knew you. Outside that circle, you might be subject to some abuse.

Villages in Issan aren't that much different. They are small enough that your best friend and worst enemy just might be the same person.

There is a difference between ignoring something, tolerating it and actually accepting it.

[PeaceBlondie]

Not speaking Thai, I miss the nuances of BKK taxi drivers. But this is a culture where you can honestly say, "I have a Thai boyfriend." Not so in Houston, outside Montrose.

[Kaojai]

No reason to worry..? Here's more from the article since I feel that it should raise eyebrows.

The shutdown of the Chiang Mai Gay Pride parade in February burst the "gay paradise" bubble of many who now scramble to explain the violent display of homophobia...

I've never attended the Chiang Mai Gay Pride parade, but if it's typical of most such events it's simply a freak show used to promote commercial venues. I would think homophobes would encourage such events since they perpetuate the worst possibly stereotypes.

Of course, the view of Thailand as a paradise for sexual minorities is clearly a myth.

A paradise, probably not, but a place where people who are gay can feel welcome and comfortable when compared to how they are treated in most places in the world, yes.

The world is filled with bigots. It sometimes seems the people who post on this forum are the most bigoted people I've ever come across. The seemingly endless bitching about Thais and everything that happens in Thailand is not rational nor well reasoned opinion, it's bigotry. I don't understand how some of you can spew such prejudice constantly and then go all limp with offense because everyone in Thailand doesn't love you.

The in-your-face gay farang community (and I'm using the word "community" as a joke) in Thailand, especially in Pattaya, has got to be populated by some of the most gossipy, back-biting, nasty people in operation. For any of them to whine about how they are treated by Thais (and by implication, how loved they were elsewhere) is ludicrous.

Some folks really need to put their own houses in order before lobbing stones at their neighbors.

I can say that Thailand is one of the nicest places I've ever lived and about the only place I've lived where being queer was pretty much a non-event. A paradise on earth? I doubt such a place exists for most people. There will always be room for improvement wherever we choose to live and wherever you go there are going to be people who dislike you for irrational reasons, but if you spend all your time looking for reasons to bitch at least part of the problem might just be you.

[Jingthing]

There is a huge difference between the experience of insulated gay foreigners ($$$$$) in Thailand experience of homophobia here and how THAI gays experience it. I don't think foreigners experience is really relevant at all. Gay expats are mostly perceived as novelty items and are foreigners first in the typical Thai perception. They are TOTALLY SEPARATE subjects: expats vs. locals.

Edited April 6, 2009 by Jingthing

[onni4me]

I've never attended the Chiang Mai Gay Pride parade, but if it's typical of most such events it's simply a freak show used to promote commercial venues. I would think homophobes would encourage such events since they perpetuate the worst possibly stereotypes.

I must be one of those freaks then...

I think gay parades are naturally promoted by the venues that we attend - some less, some more often.

Judging solely by your post, you are one of those bigoted, one-eyed, racist and untolerant persons that I would personally not want to meet. Might be wrong of course, since this site works for you as a way to let the extra steam out. You might try to attend some meditation courses, also. Might help.

[yabbit]

Does a paradise exist for LGTB people? no. but Thailand compared with the rest of the word is a paradise for LGTB people.

in a whole year i did not experience any bad incidence in thailand, either by attacking me or insulting me or even starring at me. in other part of the world i had people telling me that someone like me should be dead and i am talking about cities that praise it self as friendly and tolerant and open minded and no i did not need to stay in those places for a years as a few days were enough.

no place is 100% perfect, but while been totally our in thailand no one told me anything rude or bad or was not polite and nice to me. in Europe and the USA without even being out to people they would thing they have the right to be rude toward me just because i am difference.

Edited April 6, 2009 by yabbit

[yumidesign]

Not speaking Thai, I miss the nuances of BKK taxi drivers. But this is a culture where you can honestly say, "I have a Thai boyfriend." Not so in Houston, outside Montrose.

I would never go to Houston

[yumidesign]

pleonasm |ˈplēəˌnazəm|

noun

the use of more words than are necessary to convey meaning (e.g., see with one's eyes), either as a fault of style or for emphasis.

can i use as emphasis? but thanks for the spelling correction i have always trouble with o s and a s

[onni4me]

pleonasm |ˈplēəˌnazəm|

noun

the use of more words than are necessary to convey meaning (e.g., see with one's eyes), either as a fault of style or for emphasis.

can i use as emphasis? but thanks for the spelling correction i have always trouble with o s and a s

Was this thread about tolerance of linguistics?

I would personally prefer if you two would stick to the subject.

[alyx]

Is it intolerance?

[alyx]

actually it must be as I have not been able to find my post.....it was by al means innocent even not directly related to the subject

[noctiluca]

As a Thai, and my guess is I may have a little bit of the same upbringing as the author, I tend to agree with him on most parts of this issue. Perhaps, I should have been brought up in Esan, huh? LOL.

Anyway seriously, even though non-heterosexuality here seems to be tolerated (even in some circles fashionably celebrated), and that it is considered better to some other countries, it is far from being accepted or equal in rights. It's rare to find violence or abuse targeting gays specifically, but if any, usually masked under other pretext. The easiest sign of the lightest kind of not being treated equally would be phrases or wordings used against gays in local newspapers. If you are fluent enough in Thai, you may see the difference in connotation between referring to "normal" people and gays. But then again, I guess just like most everywhere else in the world.

My closest friend is a type of Thai gay guy that could be considered very local or native "Chao Baan Chao Baan". Meaning he is not wealthy or PhD graduated from abroad or live or work in a chic urban-type environment, although a thoughtful person. He would adamantly disagree with the idea that Thailand is a gay paradise. As long as you have money, it could paradise anywhere.

Back to the article, I think the political climate has a strong impact on what happened to Chiang Mai parade. In a way, it is like a scapegoat, an outlet or easy target. Those "red shirts" had to channel their resentment towards something . The parade is just happen to be on their detour. The culture thing is just an excuse to justify their action. I'm sure you can see and feel in the air at the moment the confusion, the chaos, the lawlessness, and the extreme emotions. My only hope is that it is a rare incident, and not a symptom of political witch hunt yet to come. It is sad what this country has become. But bottom line is I think it will have little impact on foreign expats or tourists here. Unless you have an unrealistic fantasy of Thailand, you should be ok.

[geriatrickid]

no place is 100% perfect, but while been totally our in thailand no one told me anything rude or bad or was not polite and nice to me. in Europe and the USA without even being out to people they would thing they have the right to be rude toward me just because i am difference.

You don't speak Thai do you? If you did, you'd hear the double entendre's or understand the nuances. Because you do not hear it or see it, does not mean that it isn't there. See point below.

If you are fluent enough in Thai, you may see the difference in connotation between referring to "normal" people and gays.

My closest friend is a type of Thai gay guy that could be considered very local or native "Chao Baan Chao Baan". Meaning he is not wealthy or PhD graduated from abroad or live or work in a chic urban-type environment, although a thoughtful person. He would adamantly disagree with the idea that Thailand is a gay paradise. As long as you have money, it could paradise anywhere.

My best friend is gay. He's also probably the only guy I can trust or depend on. (No reciprocation though, since his best friend is a Thai gay, although he said I can be his best farang friend. ) He comes from a poor family 100km south of Phuket, but put himself through uni and now has a job in jr. management at a tourist related conglomerate in Phuket. His boss is an ogre and keeps asking him if he is gay. He denies it repeatedly. He knows that he will be discriminated against if he is out. I support him fully in his decision as he needs the job to care for his family. When we go for lunch, he has to do it discreetly in case co-workers see him with a farang and ask why. He lives in semi fear, yet he is open to the bargirls where we hang out and he's close to one of the girl's kids and is affectionate. Anywhere else, warning bells would go off in my head, but here, it's just kindness shown to a boy that has a prostitute for a mother and doesn't know who his father is. The Issan ladies are supportive and caring of my friend. Some sort of message in that I guess.

The other night we were walking on the beach and he took my arm and I was like, whoa dude, you can't do that. You know the old taboos about public affection etc., but he just smiled and called me silly. However, as we were walking towards the far end of the beach, he saw one of his co-workers and with a quick shove I was pushed to the side and told to keep walking. Again, the fear factor. He has a crappy life in that respect. Works long hours, poor pay conditions and always in fear of whether his boss will sack him. He's no different than alot of of other Thai workers that have no protection from discrimination in the workplace. Sure the laws may exist on paper, but in practice they are not enforced.

Most of us are relatively wealthy compared to our friends here and so we are insulated. My monthly base salary is double what my friend makes in a year. I don't have to worry about a job, he does. We don't see the hassles or pain they experience. It's hard, very hard. He deserves better and is really a sweet kind person. He desperately wants a farang boyfriend. I ask him why and he says his previous Thai b/f would get violent and just didn't offer the alternatives like a farang can. He wants to get away fom "it". Seems to me he's not that much different than alot of farangs that run to Thailand for the mysteries of a Thai b/f and to get away from "it" too.

[noctiluca]

My best friend is gay. He's also probably the only guy I can trust or depend on. (No reciprocation though, since his best friend is a Thai gay, although he said I can be his best farang friend. ) He comes from a poor family 100km south of Phuket, but put himself through uni and now has a job in jr. management at a tourist related conglomerate in Phuket. His boss is an ogre and keeps asking him if he is gay. He denies it repeatedly. He knows that he will be discriminated against if he is out. I support him fully in his decision as he needs the job to care for his family. When we go for lunch, he has to do it discreetly in case co-workers see him with a farang and ask why. He lives in semi fear, yet he is open to the bargirls where we hang out and he's close to one of the girl's kids and is affectionate. Anywhere else, warning bells would go off in my head, but here, it's just kindness shown to a boy that has a prostitute for a mother and doesn't know who his father is. The Issan ladies are supportive and caring of my friend. Some sort of message in that I guess.

The other night we were walking on the beach and he took my arm and I was like, whoa dude, you can't do that. You know the old taboos about public affection etc., but he just smiled and called me silly. However, as we were walking towards the far end of the beach, he saw one of his co-workers and with a quick shove I was pushed to the side and told to keep walking. Again, the fear factor. He has a crappy life in that respect. Works long hours, poor pay conditions and always in fear of whether his boss will sack him. He's no different than alot of of other Thai workers that have no protection from discrimination in the workplace. Sure the laws may exist on paper, but in practice they are not enforced.

Most of us are relatively wealthy compared to our friends here and so we are insulated. My monthly base salary is double what my friend makes in a year. I don't have to worry about a job, he does. We don't see the hassles or pain they experience. It's hard, very hard. He deserves better and is really a sweet kind person. He desperately wants a farang boyfriend. I ask him why and he says his previous Thai b/f would get violent and just didn't offer the alternatives like a farang can. He wants to get away fom "it". Seems to me he's not that much different than alot of farangs that run to Thailand for the mysteries of a Thai b/f and to get away from "it" too.

Well, at least I think he is lucky to have you as his 'farang' best friend. I really do feel for your friend. He sounds like a sweet and really nice person. I reckon he must be pretty young. Well, I mean young for a mature adult. I hope you continue stay friend with him, and encourage him not to focus too much on being 'out' or 'outed'. I know it is easier said than done, but I hope that eventually he learns that his energy would much be better served if he channels it to something else worthwhile.

It saddens me a bit to hear that he has to be that fearful of being found out. It's a common story, though, but probably not that common in most 'farang' circles, since most foreigners, be it expats or simply tourists, hang out with a slightly different crowd than most people here. And I want to point out that I said most, not all.

I love reading stories like this. Umm... I don't mean your friend's awfully fearful life. I mean, well how should I put it, the human side of the story, I guess.

I guess what I just want to say is that on the basic level, we are not that much different. We are, or some of us were, discriminated against, be it explicitly or subtly, or at the very least not being treated equally. And you are right, some of you probably come to Thailand for this reason alone. The illusion that Thailand is a gay 'paradise'. And the same goes for some of us who believe that 'farang' or wealthy foreigner boyfriends would be like white knights in shining armor that will swoop down and carry us away to 'paradise'.

[geriatrickid]

'noctiluca' you are a pretty astute hombre.

My friend is the bestest in all of Patong. I'm the lucky one here and I'd be incredibly lonely without him. I've told him a couple times that if he was a girl, I'd marry him. He said that while a sex change was not under consideration for him, my growing man breasts made me a more likely candidate. Bugger. The truth can hurt...

He's not that young - 28. I understand your comment on the maturity thing, but let me put a different spin on it. He left home at an early age and took on the responsibilities of taking care of a family. Far more mature than I was at 18. I don't think he had a normal adolescence due to the responsibilities, so for sure he's probably somewhat stunted in that aspect. However, on the big issues like money, not cheating, duty, he's more mature than a lot of westerners that are 2X his age. The responsibilities etc. have probably made him insecure and it's not something a hug from me can fix. (Also pointing out when he has a pimple doesn't help either - but hey that's what friends are for, right?)

It's not that he's ashamed of being gay, far from it. One night I told him I disliked his shirt (he was wearing this girlie kind of T Shirt) and said, what would my neighbours think seeing some skinny youngish looking "boy" dressed like that staying over often. (He crashes at my place whenever his roomie has his g/f over.) He told me that was my problem, not his. He was right. And the next day I kept apologizing and he laughed at me and said he'd already forgotten about it although if I wanted to fixate on clothing, I should consider wearing pants that fit. Point taken.

He's looking for a new job, but with the economy the way it is, he figures he'll have to wait a few months and then relocate to Bangkok. If and when he does move, he plans on walking into the boss' office and saying "I'm gay". All about timing I guess. Anyway, if and when he moves, he's probably going to be living with me for a few months so you may be reading about some Thai guy that shoved a pencil in a farang's eye socket after he was driven mad.

[zulo]

Thank you, Geriatrickid, for your story which shows the real situations with so many gay Thais. If Thailand is really accepting towards gays, you would expect more Thai gay men to be out, right?

Katoeys are more visibly out because they are defined by who they are and express themselves, not who they sleep with. But, like the article says, that doesn't mean they don't face discriminations either. I would be interested to know if Dukkha actually talked to the openly katoey Isaan teacher to hear her side of the story. No ridicules at all? I seriously doubt it. And I would like to know if she thinks she would still be working in the same school for 30 years, had she not been a katoey?

Like Noctiluca astutely pointed out, not understanding the language and the cultural subtext make most foreigners oblivious to the prejudices. Also like he said, if you have enough money, it can be paradise anywhere. How much money, of course, depends on where it is. In a Thai village, it doesn't have to be all that much to earn respect.

Dukkha was quite right. "but in Isaan getting the next grain of rice in to your bowl seems of more importance than who is sleeping with whom and how often and for how much...." So a gay Thai with farang bf will be more than welcome in the village, because he now can provide economic stability to his family. The situation would be very different, if he was to go back to the village with another poor Thai guy. The same applies with a Thai woman having a farang husband who buys a house for her parents in the village, even though she may have earlier been the subject of nasty gossips for "going out with farangs".

Whether that kind of conditional welcome equals acceptance towards gays is up to personal definitions. And this scenario doesn't work with middle-class urban Thais. They do not need extra economic support, so it can't override cultural prejudices.

[yumidesign]

lovely stories guys, so happy to hear them