Thai Banks To Start Charging For Atm Withdrawals ...

[jboras]

According to the Thanchart website, The Thai Bankers Association has decided that cardholders of foreign banks will be charged 150 Baht for each withdrawal by debit or credit card, effective April 17th.

Not good news.

Why Not?!

Australian, European and I am sure most banks in the world are and have been charging for this service... and a lot more that 150 Baht.

Be greatfull it's only 150baht.

You should see the charge when I use my Thail ATM in Australia... I am sure Ned Kelly runs Aussie banks!

[loong]

A new bank to the fee free list is appreciated thank you, but have you lost 10 baht to the dollar there surly you mean 35.28

NO, don't confuse the issue, Kasikorn Bank has always been at the top of the list and so far continues it's fine tradition of offering free foreign ATM card withdrawels

This post has already grown to over 16 pages so when someone throws in another bank that is offering no fee for ATM's that has already been listed many times THAT confuses the issue

Then you should have made it clear WHAT was confusing the issue.

The fact that Thai Farmers Bank is now called Kasikorn had already been pointed out.

YOUR post was confusing the issue.

[Langsuan Man]

I think your sig says it all

Please ignore me - I have no idea what I am talking about

[longtom]

Can somebody explain me what e.g. Kasikorn Banks wins by not charging any fee for ATM withdrawals? As mentioned there are costs in operating the machines, so it seems they would be loosing money. And since one doesn't have to be Kasikorn customer to profit from that, I don't see how they would aquire many new customers, so are they just being nice or ... ?

[Chaimai]

Australian, European and I am sure most banks in the world are and have been charging for this service... and a lot more that 150 Baht.

Don't know about Oz, but European banks certainly have NOT been charging at "Point of Sale" for ATM withdrawals

[jgm005]

Sticking with the main theme of this thread ...

Sunday/26/April at 11:00 used Kasikorn ATM at MBK. No fee! Exchange rate of 35.378

[Chaimai]

Can somebody explain me what e.g. Kasikorn Banks wins by not charging any fee for ATM withdrawals? As mentioned there are costs in operating the machines, so it seems they would be loosing money. And since one doesn't have to be Kasikorn customer to profit from that, I don't see how they would aquire many new customers, so are they just being nice or ... ?

Kasikorn appear to be 'Falang Friendly'. This comes across in dealings with the staff and in their English worded advertising - even the tv screens show adverts in English and English style.

In all honesty I agree that there is little for them to gain. It is unusual in Thailand for any organisation to favour the Falang and it is not a market where anyone has made a special effort to get Falang business. Also, I am not sure how BKB or SCB feel about Kasikorn being out of line. They could, of course, just have cr4p ATM software or have forgotten to make the change

I regret that it will not be long before Kasikorn follow their peers but I shall at least remember that they held out longest - if they don't impose the charge (and they will lose millions by not doing so) then full marks to them for not following the herd.

[aurelius]

A great question finally...

In short, Kasikorn will gain the admiration of 16 pages of THIAVISA forum members, but at the same time they also run their ATMs at a loss, and will do so until their IT department (which is reputedly outsourced to IBM) catches up with the rest of the market.

The origin of these fees is in the fact the card assn's changed their charges to banks recently.

In the past, banks who provided ATM services for other cardholders were earning revenue/making profits (logical - because they have the costs of the cash, the machine etc). The revenue that they earned was paid from the cardholders's bank - and of course they were the ones that earned revenue from the cardholder - either via explict fees or from the exchange rate margin.

What MasterCard intitiated late last year was a change to the fee allocation method, which resulted in ATM-owning banks making a loss on the international withdrawal transactions. And in Thailand where there is a high net inflow of tourists, this was quite substantial; and sufficient for the Banker Assn and BOT to authorise banks to implement the charges.

Think about the influences on VISA and MC - both of them have recently become "companies" as opposed to the "association" structure that they previously had. They are under pressure to create shareholder profits now, and they are heavily influenced by the US banks where there are lots of credit cards on issue, not to mention need for revenue. This means their pricing policy tends to end up disadvantageous to the rest of the world, especially the "acquiring" countries. Most acquiring - either in shops or via ATMs, in the US is conducted through third party processors which themselves are not banks and don't have the same voice at the table.

Expect Kbank to follow; Don't forget there are card portolios for Tesco, Central etc who are not ATM Pool members, even if BAY/GE is - this may be a reason that they haven't moved yet. I believe that local AEON cards are being treated as foreign cards because they are not a member of the Pool.

[flying]

Can somebody explain me what e.g. Kasikorn Banks wins by not charging any fee for ATM withdrawals? As mentioned there are costs in operating the machines, so it seems they would be loosing money. And since one doesn't have to be Kasikorn customer to profit from that, I don't see how they would aquire many new customers, so are they just being nice or ... ?

Funny how folks will shop for deals to save a lil in banking

Remember how many chased the higher than normal interest rates at that bank in Iceland

[loong]

Can somebody explain me what e.g. Kasikorn Banks wins by not charging any fee for ATM withdrawals? As mentioned there are costs in operating the machines, so it seems they would be loosing money. And since one doesn't have to be Kasikorn customer to profit from that, I don't see how they would aquire many new customers, so are they just being nice or ... ?

Banks would not install and operate ATMs if there was no profit motive involved. Obviously, when a Kasikorn account holder makes a withdrawal, it's cheaper for that withdrawal to be made electronically than at the counter. Maintaining a machine is cheaper than paying staff. For the same reason, an ATM withdrawal from a foreign bank account is cheaper than processing travellers cheques etc. Kasikorn must get a share of the fees charged by VIsa and Mastercard and there is a small profit made on the exchange rate.

However, I can't believe that their share of fees are likely to be as much as 150 Baht on an average transaction, but if they dont introduce the charge, they will not be making less money than before, just not making the extra profit.

It could be a good customer relations exercise, maybe foreigners will favour Kasikorn when /if they open a Thai bank account.

Langsuan man, I cant be bothered to take up space in this thread with your attempt to start a slanging match. Your post quoted and responded to

A new bank to the fee free list is appreciated thank you, but have you lost 10 baht to the dollar there surly you mean 35.28

Your response

NO, don't confuse the issue, Kasikorn Bank has always been at the top of the list and so far continues it's fine tradition of offering free foreign ATM card withdrawels

Your response to that quote may well make sense to you, but it certainly didn't to me. Mali was not aware at the time of posting that Thai Farmers Bank is now known as Kasikorn and another poster had already pointed that out.

If you feel that you have to have the last word - go ahead, but you'll hear no more from me on this subject.

[thecatman]

Funny how folks will shop for deals to save a lil in banking

Remember how many chased the higher than normal interest rates at that bank in Iceland

So when there are 2 ATM machines side by side and one charges and one doesn't, which one will you use???

[sprq]

Having lived in Thailand for decades and regularly researched British and Thai card use fees, I can say the following:

British bank cards - debit or credit: for use outside the UK, there is a pretty uniform charge of 2% per ATM withdrawal (or GBP2 for withdrawals under GBP100) plus a 2.5% or 2.75% exchange rate hit. Consequently, if you withdraw GBP100 -- a reasonable sum given that the main point in using ATMs when abroad is to limit the amount of cash you carry around -- you are hit for almost 5%. If you have to pay 150 baht, i.e. GBP3, in addition in Thailand under this new fee structure, your transaction costs you almost GBP8 or 8% of your withdrawal.

Anybody who says 'what the hel_l' or 'get over it' in these circumstances must just have money to throw away.

On the other hand, just to praise Thai banks a little, using a Thai bank (SCB or BKKB anyway) Visa or MC debit card at ATMs outside Thailand attracts only a 100 baht fee for any transaction plus an exchange fee hit much less than British banks use. No complaints there.

[flying]

Funny how folks will shop for deals to save a lil in banking

Remember how many chased the higher than normal interest rates at that bank in Iceland

So when there are 2 ATM machines side by side and one charges and one doesn't, which one will you use???

Neither

I keep my money in my socks its really very neat.

But all the people on my block say I have lumpy feet

Kidding aside of course if I have an option of not paying a charge I dont.

But I dont scrimp when picking a bank. Most of the time I thought if a bank machine is not your originating bank it would charge a fee anyway.

But my point was in answering the other post is to beware of banks that give & give when none of the others do. Meaning your deposits might be safer elsewhere.

Edited April 26, 2009 by flying

[timekeeper]

for everyones info and i know its been discusssed already but i can confirm i was not charged a fee for using a foreign debit card this morning at Kasikorn bank in Carrefour

i guess news of this is spreading as there was a queue of 3 resident looking farangs for this ATM whilst others were available for use

i normally use Bangkok bank as its the only Atm that gives 25,000 in one hit but they are charging 150 a pop now, so i will be using Kbank from now on

thank you to whoever advised of KBank originally, you just saved me 300baht.

[david96]

From the CBA website in Australia.

International ATMs and EFTPOS

To make travelling easier, you can use your Commonwealth Bank keycard in any international ATM carrying the Cirrus or Visa Plus signs and also for Maestro EFTPOS purchases. The following fees apply:

Maestro EFTPOS purchase AUD$1.00 + 2.00% of transaction value

Cirrus or Visa Plus ATM balance enquiry AUD$2.00

Cirrus ATM cash withdrawal AUD$5.00 + 2.00% of transaction value

Visa Plus ATM cash withdrawal AUD$5.00 + 2.00% of transaction value

[Mali1964]

According to the Thanchart website, The Thai Bankers Association has decided that cardholders of foreign banks will be charged 150 Baht for each withdrawal by debit or credit card, effective April 17th.

Not good news.

Why Not?!

Australian, European and I am sure most banks in the world are and have been charging for this service... and a lot more that 150 Baht.

Be greatfull it's only 150baht.

You should see the charge when I use my Thail ATM in Australia... I am sure Ned Kelly runs Aussie banks!

In the UK most ATM'S are free & the ones that do charge are clearly marked with posters that they do charge & tend to be stand alone Machine's that are privately owned cash cows in convenience store's pub's & clubs,they charge no more than 100 baht.

Be grateful its only 150 baht (£3 $4.50) to get at your own money you must feel happy that the government's of the world also bailed out these greedy banks then, do you have shares in them by any chance.

[Mali1964]

Having lived in Thailand for decades and regularly researched British and Thai card use fees, I can say the following:

British bank cards - debit or credit: for use outside the UK, there is a pretty uniform charge of 2% per ATM withdrawal (or GBP2 for withdrawals under GBP100) plus a 2.5% or 2.75% exchange rate hit. Consequently, if you withdraw GBP100 -- a reasonable sum given that the main point in using ATMs when abroad is to limit the amount of cash you carry around -- you are hit for almost 5%. If you have to pay 150 baht, i.e. GBP3, in addition in Thailand under this new fee structure, your transaction costs you almost GBP8 or 8% of your withdrawal.

Anybody who says 'what the hel_l' or 'get over it' in these circumstances must just have money to throw away.

On the other hand, just to praise Thai banks a little, using a Thai bank (SCB or BKKB anyway) Visa or MC debit card at ATMs outside Thailand attracts only a 100 baht fee for any transaction plus an exchange fee hit much less than British banks use. No complaints there.

Having lived in Thailand for decades and regularly researched British and Thai card use fees, I can say the following:

Wow you must have missed the one about the Nationwide fee free Debit & cash card then.

Edited April 26, 2009 by Mali1964

[mushepea]

I have seen them try to charge me, so far i have declined to accept the fee.

some main branches of kaisakorn's ATMs are still free (as of friday24th).

Yesterday i got charged by bangkok bank - they never warned me. i got the "no reciept available, do wish to continue?" message. so pressed "yes" - i got a reciept and a 150B fee!!

i have already been to complain and have to call the freephone number on monday. i want my 150B back. english £ already dowen 30%.

the people in charge here are idoits. hit the farang again. business is bad - SO PUT THE PRICES UP!!! - IDIOTS.

i have just about had enough - going to live in phnom penh - they'll lose a lot more money than the lousy 150B per atm withdrawal - all the cash i get from ATM is spent in thai economy - obviously the idiots dont realise the damage they are doing to themselves.

THIS IS WHAT I SUGGEST.

EVERYONE START TO WITHDRAW VIA EXCHANGE BOOTH OR BANK - CAUSE THEM MAJOR HASSLE, WASTE THEIR TIME.

even if they dont figure out it costs them more you will feel better - and you can get more than the pathetic 16,000B out even if they do still charge 150B, so it will be cheaper.

also transfer from UK bank direct to thai bank acct costs £10. just do larfge amounts - at least thailand dont get the all the 150B fees.

like i a said phnom penh is so much cheaper for everything, thailand has got so expensive and the over inflated baht is killing me.

NATIONWIDE.CO.UK - NO FEES FOR OVERSEAS WITHDRAWALS!!

[SurfRider]

Aurelius,

If you don't mind, could you elaborate a bit on this cryptic message?

"Don't forget there are card portolios for Tesco, Central etc who are not ATM Pool members, even if BAY/GE is - this may be a reason that they haven't moved yet. I believe that local AEON cards are being treated as foreign cards because they are not a member of the Pool"

I don't know what a "portolios" or an "AEON" is, but if I understand your message -- it sounds like you're saying that all a wayward Farang would need to do is obtain one of these things and they would be able to avoid the new confiscatory fee forever!

Thanks in advance for any insights.

[Mali1964]

Aurelius,

If you don't mind, could you elaborate a bit on this cryptic message?

"Don't forget there are card portolios for Tesco, Central etc who are not ATM Pool members, even if BAY/GE is - this may be a reason that they haven't moved yet. I believe that local AEON cards are being treated as foreign cards because they are not a member of the Pool"

I don't know what a "portolios" or an "AEON" is, but if I understand your message -- it sounds like you're saying that all a wayward Farang would need to do is obtain one of these things and they would be able to avoid the new confiscatory fee forever!

Thanks in advance for any insights.

I think he means that some local Thai cards ie AEON & Tesco etc are hit by this fee as they are not in the ATM pool together so there may be some unhappy Thais out there also hit with this fee.

[Mali1964]

I have seen them try to charge me, so far i have declined to accept the fee.

some main branches of kaisakorn's ATMs are still free (as of friday24th).

Yesterday i got charged by bangkok bank - they never warned me. i got the "no reciept available, do wish to continue?" message. so pressed "yes" - i got a reciept and a 150B fee!!

i have already been to complain and have to call the freephone number on monday. i want my 150B back. english £ already dowen 30%.

the people in charge here are idoits. hit the farang again. business is bad - SO PUT THE PRICES UP!!! - IDIOTS.

i have just about had enough - going to live in phnom penh - they'll lose a lot more money than the lousy 150B per atm withdrawal - all the cash i get from ATM is spent in thai economy - obviously the idiots dont realise the damage they are doing to themselves.

THIS IS WHAT I SUGGEST.

EVERYONE START TO WITHDRAW VIA EXCHANGE BOOTH OR BANK - CAUSE THEM MAJOR HASSLE, WASTE THEIR TIME.

even if they dont figure out it costs them more you will feel better - and you can get more than the pathetic 16,000B out even if they do still charge 150B, so it will be cheaper.

also transfer from UK bank direct to thai bank acct costs £10. just do larfge amounts - at least thailand dont get the all the 150B fees.

like i a said phnom penh is so much cheaper for everything, thailand has got so expensive and the over inflated baht is killing me.

NATIONWIDE.CO.UK - NO FEES FOR OVERSEAS WITHDRAWALS!!

also transfer from UK bank direct to thai bank acct costs £10

Please name this bank that's the cheapest swift fee i've seen, Nationwide £20 Barclay's £28 snail pace & £45 for 2/3 day transfer

[Chaimai]

I have a VISA-Card from the German bank Deutsche Kreditbank AG (DKB). They guarantee their customers to take of money for free worldwide.

I don't see how any bank can guarantee something that they do not have control over - in this example the Thai Bankers Association agreed that the charge could be implemented. How could DKB anticipate that ??

I suspect that DKB refer to their own charges i.e. in not passing on VISA and Mastercard transaction costs. Before getting out of your pram with DKB I recommend that you re-read the 'small print'

[Chaimai]

I have seen them try to charge me, so far i have declined to accept the fee.

some main branches of kaisakorn's ATMs are still free (as of friday24th).

Yesterday i got charged by bangkok bank - they never warned me. i got the "no reciept available, do wish to continue?" message. so pressed "yes" - i got a reciept and a 150B fee!!

i have already been to complain and have to call the freephone number on monday. i want my 150B back. english £ already dowen 30%.

the people in charge here are idoits. hit the farang again. business is bad - SO PUT THE PRICES UP!!! - IDIOTS.

i have just about had enough - going to live in phnom penh - they'll lose a lot more money than the lousy 150B per atm withdrawal - all the cash i get from ATM is spent in thai economy - obviously the idiots dont realise the damage they are doing to themselves.

THIS IS WHAT I SUGGEST.

EVERYONE START TO WITHDRAW VIA EXCHANGE BOOTH OR BANK - CAUSE THEM MAJOR HASSLE, WASTE THEIR TIME.

even if they dont figure out it costs them more you will feel better - and you can get more than the pathetic 16,000B out even if they do still charge 150B, so it will be cheaper.

also transfer from UK bank direct to thai bank acct costs £10. just do larfge amounts - at least thailand dont get the all the 150B fees.

like i a said phnom penh is so much cheaper for everything, thailand has got so expensive and the over inflated baht is killing me.

NATIONWIDE.CO.UK - NO FEES FOR OVERSEAS WITHDRAWALS!!

Very constructive - NOT !!

I would love to have seen the face of the Thai cashier when you tried to get the 150 baht back

Are you really going to waste your time by calling the bank on Monday ??

[JR Texas]

I have seen them try to charge me, so far i have declined to accept the fee.

some main branches of kaisakorn's ATMs are still free (as of friday24th).

Yesterday i got charged by bangkok bank - they never warned me. i got the "no reciept available, do wish to continue?" message. so pressed "yes" - i got a reciept and a 150B fee!!

i have already been to complain and have to call the freephone number on monday. i want my 150B back. english £ already dowen 30%.

the people in charge here are idoits. hit the farang again. business is bad - SO PUT THE PRICES UP!!! - IDIOTS.

i have just about had enough - going to live in phnom penh - they'll lose a lot more money than the lousy 150B per atm withdrawal - all the cash i get from ATM is spent in thai economy - obviously the idiots dont realise the damage they are doing to themselves.

THIS IS WHAT I SUGGEST.

EVERYONE START TO WITHDRAW VIA EXCHANGE BOOTH OR BANK - CAUSE THEM MAJOR HASSLE, WASTE THEIR TIME.

even if they dont figure out it costs them more you will feel better - and you can get more than the pathetic 16,000B out even if they do still charge 150B, so it will be cheaper.

also transfer from UK bank direct to thai bank acct costs £10. just do larfge amounts - at least thailand dont get the all the 150B fees.

like i a said phnom penh is so much cheaper for everything, thailand has got so expensive and the over inflated baht is killing me.

NATIONWIDE.CO.UK - NO FEES FOR OVERSEAS WITHDRAWALS!!

Very constructive - NOT !!

I would love to have seen the face of the Thai cashier when you tried to get the 150 baht back

Are you really going to waste your time by calling the bank on Monday ??

Actually, I thought it was a good post. It reveals two things: 1) total idiots are in control, and 2) foreigners are getting so upset with all of the BS that they are leaving along with their money.

This is one person...........but it really isn't..........loads of people are coming to the same conclusion. Some left a long time ago (guess they had 20:20 vision). Others are closing shop and moving now........

Thailand is a sinking ship. They will not acknowledge anything is wrong. They refuse to believe that their visa/business rules are hurting the country (oddly......many expats seem to have swallowed the official version hook line and sinker).

I think he is making a good choice........Cambodia is calm...........Thailand is a storm.

[JimGant]

What MasterCard intitiated late last year was a change to the fee allocation method, which resulted in ATM-owning banks making a loss on the international withdrawal transactions.

Making a loss, I guess, because the new meager reimbursement didn't cover all maintenance costs, let alone provide a small profit...... Certainly you're not saying they weren't being reimbursed at all?

Can somebody explain me what e.g. Kasikorn Banks wins by not charging any fee for ATM withdrawals?........

Well, as the man said:

It could be a good customer relations exercise, maybe foreigners will favour Kasikorn when /if they open a Thai bank account.

Bingo. Kasikorn is now -- or will be soon -- the darling of the expat community. How many more mortgages, loans, accounts, etc will they now handle because of all this favorable publicity.... And the cost - maybe a little more wear and tear on their machines..... And the opportunity costs, i.e., the lost 150bt per foreign transaction? Both types of costs are peanuts compared with the profit from the new business to be generated.

And the tourists will be happy, too, to save 150bt. And will remember Kasikorn when they become expats.

I bet we see other banks dropping their 150bt fees. Just like when one airline doesn't match the fare increase of the others........the others blink.

foreigners are getting so upset with all of the BS that they are leaving along with their money.

Naaa. They're taking their business to Kasikorn.

[JimGant]

if you withdraw GBP100 -- a reasonable sum given that the main point in using ATMs when abroad is to limit the amount of cash you carry around -- you are hit for almost 5%.

Just as you forgot to factor in cheap cards like Nationwide -- you're using a tourist's perspective for ATM usage. As a resident, why would you want to make multiple ATM runs -- wasting time and gas -- when you can max out the machine, then put most in a safe place at home (along with the ATM card) to be divvied out as necessary. And, unless on vacation, the best ATM machine is the one at your local bank, both because of security (those ATM machines in the malls are spooky), and because, when the ATM machine eats your card, you have a known face to retrieve it (unlke, yes, at a spooky mall).

To make multiple ATM hits, very costly with fixed fees, just to 'limit the amount of cash you carry around,' only makes sense if you'll encounter a lot of highwaymen on your journey from the ATM machine to your 'safe place' at home.

[hyperdimension]

I seems that all of you are assuming that you would get the same exchange rate regardless of which bank you withdraw from at any point in time.

I think however, that the rates you get at the ATM are different for every bank, just as they would differ at exchange booths of different banks for converting physical cash notes or traveler's cheques.

Some of you assume that you get the interbank spot exchange rate when you do an ATM withdrawal, but I think it would be more accurate to use the bank's telegraphic transfer (TT) rate, which is slightly worse than the interbank rate; the bank profits from the difference. You can't normally get the interbank exchange rate unless you are a bank yourself.

Consider then the following hypothetical situation in which Siam City Bank gives a better TT exchange rate than Kasikorn, but has a 150 THB fee:

Bank			TT rate  amount  fee  amount+fee  expected total debit
Siam City Bank  35.29	20000   150  20150	   570.9832814
Kasikorn Bank   35	   20000   0	20000	   571.4285714

You can see that despite the fee, Siam City Bank still would save you (a little) money because of the better rate.

Before withdrawing any cash from an ATM, you can compare the TT exchange rates of 10 Thai banks at this web site: http://bankexchangerates.daytodaydata.net

You can then calculate (like in the example above) using a spreadsheet, accounting for all fees, what the expected amounts deducted from your account would be. Note that the actual amount deducted may differ from your calculated amount, due to things such as the originating bank cutting some percentage off the interbank exchange rate ("foreign exchange fee") and/or other middlemen along the chain taking their slices of the pie.

Note also that you should check your account a day or two after the actual transaction. If you check on the same day, you may think that you got a very good rate, but the entry may just be a temporary placeholder. It's only after the transaction has been fully processed the next day that you'd see the true and final amount deducted.

[SurfRider]

"Bingo. Kasikorn is now -- or will be soon -- the darling of the expat community."

It's an alluring fantasy, but how many times have you actually seen any Thai entity do anything other than grabbing any cash that they can, as quickly as possible, from the "rich" Farangs?

I hope you're right, but before we all go skipping down the yellow-brick Kasikorn road, I suspect that K-Bank is simply a little late ( TiT ) in getting their act together to join the ranks in screwing the hapless and indefensible Farang out of as much Baht as they can get their little Thai hands on

[Jiu-Jitsu]

[/b][/u]

Please name this bank that's the cheapest swift fee i've seen, Nationwide £20 Barclay's £28 snail pace & £45 for 2/3 day transfer

Halifax Bank

[Chaimai]

I think he is making a good choice........Cambodia is calm...........Thailand is a storm.

JR - I agree, everyone has a choice. A 150 Baht ATM charge would not cause me to leave. If it is a straw that breaks the camel's back then I can only conclude that they have been living a fragile, and discontented life, and perhaps it is time to try pastures new.